Kyrie is dirty rotten no good and we have schadenfreude…?

PedroKsBambino

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You'd think that two all-world basketball players would be able to find a way to play together. Like, does anyone in the world doubt that Bird and Magic would have been amazing together, even though both were Alphas? I'd like to think that Luka and Kyrie could figure it out - they're both amazing. And it's not like Kyrie didn't figure it out with LeBron, because he did.
OK, but when you're talking about Luka, Bird, Magic and Kyrie you have to acknowledge that one of those guys is not wired remotely like the others don't you?

Bird and Magic would have killed someone to win a basketball game. Great as Luka is, he would not. And Kyrie would be more likely to tell the guy a haiku than kill him to win the game.
 

BaseballJones

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OK, but when you're talking about Luka, Bird, Magic and Kyrie you have to acknowledge that one of those guys is not wired remotely like the others don't you?

Bird and Magic would have killed someone to win a basketball game. Great as Luka is, he would not. And Kyrie would be more likely to tell the guy a haiku than kill him to win the game.
Yes, 100%. This is why Kyrie really isn't an all-time great. Even LeBron figured out how to play with other mega-stars. So did Curry and Durant. So did Jordan (though he had to be the undisputed Alpha, which was only right). So did David Robinson. So did Dr. J. So did Kobe, actually, at least for a little while.

(though he DID win a title with LeBron, to be fair)
 

HomeRunBaker

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That's the thing for the Nets, though---they have traded their own picks and have no incentive to tank, and really need to keep KD aboard. So even if value-wise the Laker offer makes sense, practically it's kind of creating an ugly few years here if they go that way.
One thing to keep in mind is the job security of Sean Marks who just signed a long extension and is presumably adored by Tsai. Assuming that he is he would see the long-term future of the organization more clear than say someone like Pelinka in LA.
 

joe dokes

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You'd think that two all-world basketball players would be able to find a way to play together. Like, does anyone in the world doubt that Bird and Magic would have been amazing together, even though both were Alphas? I'd like to think that Luka and Kyrie could figure it out - they're both amazing. And it's not like Kyrie didn't figure it out with LeBron, because he did.
He did succeed with Lebron, but that was many round-earth revolutions ago.
 

The Mort Report

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DFS with that contract is pretty valuable imo. I can see an argument in favor of the Mavs return simply because the Nets turned an expiring asset into two players who have control beyond this season (v one)and both are younger than Paul who feels like he is finally starting to show his age. But the details matter so draft capital is a factor as well...
Absolutely agree, and I'm guessing that was why they opted for the Mavs deal. However, the Nets already have at least a few guys that play roles at least somewhat adjacent to DFS, but don't have a true PG. Yes KD can be the primary, but taking some of that pressure off him with CP3 would lower the wear and tear on his body. Simmons unwillingness to shoot makes him worthless as a distributor, especially in crunch time. Add in that CP3 is a "star" might help KD think of staying. But you're probably right, they took the best assets possible, not the ones that probably fit better for this year
 

kazuneko

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As a Kyrie hater I’m happy that he didn’t get what he wanted (a trade to LA) and that the situation in Dallas doesn’t look that promising. Let’s see if he is able to make it until the end of the season without more controversy. Doesn’t seem likely..
 

radsoxfan

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That's the thing for the Nets, though---they have traded their own picks and have no incentive to tank, and really need to keep KD aboard. So even if value-wise the Laker offer makes sense, practically it's kind of creating an ugly few years here if they go that way.
I think if those picks were entirely unprotected, there's an argument to take the Lakers deal and immediately put those picks on the open market. Like in the next couple days.

Have to think unprotected Laker picks in 4-6 years are pretty valuable, moreso than FInney Smith and Dinwiddie.

But also riskier situation as hard to assure you get enough current value to keep KD happy.
 

Kliq

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Kyrie is good for 25 ppg at good efficiency during an era where it has never been easier to score the basketball efficiently. He also brings bad defense, selfish play, no heart and the possibility to derail your locker room at almost any moment. He's not a winning basketball player. Dallas might have just blown their shot with Luka, a completely inexplicable trade.
 

Euclis20

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Kyrie is good for 25 ppg at good efficiency during an era where it has never been easier to score the basketball efficiently. He also brings bad defense, selfish play, no heart and the possibility to derail your locker room at almost any moment. He's not a winning basketball player. Dallas might have just blown their shot with Luka, a completely inexplicable trade.
I'll rubber stamp the rest of your post, but to give him his due, a guy his size scoring as much and as efficiently as he does is pretty rare. The only small guards who've done it consistently over the last decade are Curry and MAYBE Lillard. That's it. He should wake up every day thanking Lebron for putting him in a position to hit that game 7 shot over Curry, because otherwise his career would be a bigger joke than it is already.
 

slamminsammya

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Kyrie is good for 25 ppg at good efficiency during an era where it has never been easier to score the basketball efficiently. He also brings bad defense, selfish play, no heart and the possibility to derail your locker room at almost any moment. He's not a winning basketball player. Dallas might have just blown their shot with Luka, a completely inexplicable trade.
Inexplicable seems very strong to me. I don't think it's gonna work out but you can see the theory behind the trade and it isn't crazy (to me). You need to gamble a bit when you are in the spot Dallas was in.
 

nattysez

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Just to be clear on the Lakers-Nets discussion, the Athletic says that the Nets were demanding the world from the Lakers (probably per Tsai's demand):

The Lakers offered the Nets a package of Westbrook and two first-round picks in 2027 and 2029 for Irving in the last two days, sources with knowledge of the discussions said — to which the Nets informed the Lakers that in order to make an offer to get in the Irving sweepstakes they would require all of their young players such as Austin Reaves and Max Christie and pick swaps in addition to Westbrook and the two first-round picks.
 

Jimbodandy

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The Dallas roster after Luka was a bunch of jags. Aside from not having a small amount of protection on that pick, I don't think that this deal is a colossal mistake. They already made the mistakes assembling that garbage team around one star. I guess that this compounds it, but at least Kyrie is a player.

I'm more interested in Lakers fan schadenfreude after this.
 

Euclis20

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Just to be clear on the Lakers-Nets discussion, the Athletic says that the Nets were demanding the world from the Lakers (probably per Tsai's demand):
It's definitely not good business sense to essentially turn down a better trade offer to spite the player being moved (especially if you don't directly compete with the team that you're sending him to, outside of a possible finals matchup), but since it's not my team cutting of its nose, I'll enjoy it greatly.
 

EvilEmpire

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Can the Mavs trade Kyrie again right away?

Not that they would, given that they want to put some talent around Luka, but man, those Lakers picks look awfully nice if unprotected. Maybe use those picks after the season is over to find some guys that fit better.
 

TheRooster

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Inexplicable seems very strong to me. I don't think it's gonna work out but you can see the theory behind the trade and it isn't crazy (to me). You need to gamble a bit when you are in the spot Dallas was in.
Gambling is playing roulette, not betting your retirement on winning Powerball. The idea that having KI as a teammate will entice Luka to remain in Dallas seems to ignore history.
 

m0ckduck

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The Dallas roster after Luka was a bunch of jags. Aside from not having a small amount of protection on that pick, I don't think that this deal is a colossal mistake. They already made the mistakes assembling that garbage team around one star. I guess that this compounds it, but at least Kyrie is a player.
Agree. A guy like Dinwiddie— 2nd/3rd banana on a garbage roster— is always going to look presentable, because somebody has to take the non-Luka shots, and he gets to play within his limitations in a system build around a ball-dominant star. The DARKO chart someone posted earlier shows what he is— basically fungible.
The 2029 unprotected first could be quite valuable.
Yeah, but if you're Dallas, you could pick #1 overall for 5 straight years and not land a player as good as Doncic. The focus has to be on keeping Luka in the fold long-term and being competitive enough that the pick doesn't amount to much. Now, whether dealing the pick for KI is the best use of assets towards that goal is certainly debatable, but I get the philosophy.
Can the Mavs trade Kyrie again right away?

Not that they would, given that they want to put some talent around Luka, but man, those Lakers picks look awfully nice if unprotected. Maybe use those picks after the season is over to find some guys that fit better.
Maybe making one playoff run with KI and then dealing him to LA in a sign-and-trade in the offseason gets everyone what they want? (Including, unfortunately, Kyrie). DAL gets to prove their commitment to winning to Luka AND restocks their assets to improve the roster.

Gambling is playing roulette, not betting your retirement on winning Powerball. The idea that having KI as a teammate will entice Luka to remain in Dallas seems to ignore history.
I don't know. I don't think we have any idea what makes these guys tick. “Kyrie destroys every team he plays for" and "Every player in the league seems to love Kyrie" are offsetting baffling mysteries. No Luka-related outcome here would really surprise me.
 
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lovegtm

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Agree. A guy like Dinwiddie— 2nd/3rd banana on a garbage roster— is always going to look presentable, because somebody has to take the non-Luka shots, and he gets to play within his limitations in a system build around a ball-dominant star. The DARKO chart someone posted earlier shows what he is— basically fungible.

Yeah, but if you're Dallas, you could pick #1 overall for 5 straight years and not land a player as good as Doncic. The focus has to be on keeping Luka in the fold long-term and being competitive enough that the pick doesn't amount to much. Now, whether dealing the pick for KI is the best use of assets towards that goal is certainly debatable, but I get the philosophy.

Maybe making one playoff run with KI and then dealing him to LA in a sign-and-trade in the offseason gets everyone what they want? (Including, unfortunately, Kyrie). DAL gets to prove their commitment to winning to Luka AND restocks their assets to improve the roster.


I don't know. I don't think we have any idea what makes these guys tick. “Kyrie destroys every team he plays for" and "Every player in the league seems to love Kyrie" are offsetting baffling mysteries. No Luka-related outcome here would really surprise me.
Arbitraging Tsai's distaste for dealing with LA by turning right around and trading Kyrie there would be funny. Is there a restriction right now on trading Kyrie this soon after acquiring? (I assume yes, but not sure.)
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Kyrie is good for 25 ppg at good efficiency during an era where it has never been easier to score the basketball efficiently. He also brings bad defense, selfish play, no heart and the possibility to derail your locker room at almost any moment. He's not a winning basketball player. Dallas might have just blown their shot with Luka, a completely inexplicable trade.
It's possible that Dallas may already have blown its shot at Luka and this may be the one last attempt to salvage it. I mean does Dallas have a path to getting a player better than KI in the near future?

My guess is that KI is going to play it super nice for the next 30 games. He'll say what he said to Harden - "You have the ball, I'll play off ball" - and we'll see how far that might take them. As almost everyone has pointed out, there are real issues on defense with Luka and KI but my guess is that they'll score enough to win more than they lose but I doubt they will have a long playoff run.

At that point, DAL basically has to give KI a max or near-max. And then let's see what happens.
 

Fishy1

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My thoughts are basically this. Luka needed help, and their offense will be incredible. It was already top ten.

Unfortunately, the help they needed was on defense.
 

Auger34

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It's possible that Dallas may already have blown its shot at Luka and this may be the one last attempt to salvage it. I mean does Dallas have a path to getting a player better than KI in the near future?

My guess is that KI is going to play it super nice for the next 30 games. He'll say what he said to Harden - "You have the ball, I'll play off ball" - and we'll see how far that might take them. As almost everyone has pointed out, there are real issues on defense with Luka and KI but my guess is that they'll score enough to win more than they lose but I doubt they will have a long playoff run.

At that point, DAL basically has to give KI a max or near-max. And then let's see what happens.
He’s definitely going to play nice the rest of this season. The question is how quickly after this season does Kyrie get disenchanted and force his way out
 

benhogan

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My thoughts are basically this. Luka needed help, and their offense will be incredible. It was already top ten.

Unfortunately, the help they needed was on defense.
Maybe they aren't done, they have time to add a few more pieces. Buying defense around Lu-Ky is job #1 now

He’s definitely going to play nice the rest of this season. The question is how quickly after this season does Kyrie get disenchanted and force his way out
About a couple of months after he signs his next deal he'll start wearing out his welcome. Wasn't that the time frame when Ky started getting salty with Celtic reporters post-pronouncement?
 

Kliq

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It's possible that Dallas may already have blown its shot at Luka and this may be the one last attempt to salvage it. I mean does Dallas have a path to getting a player better than KI in the near future?

My guess is that KI is going to play it super nice for the next 30 games. He'll say what he said to Harden - "You have the ball, I'll play off ball" - and we'll see how far that might take them. As almost everyone has pointed out, there are real issues on defense with Luka and KI but my guess is that they'll score enough to win more than they lose but I doubt they will have a long playoff run.

At that point, DAL basically has to give KI a max or near-max. And then let's see what happens.
I think Dallas is worse than they were before the trade. Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie, he scores a decent amount more points, although Dinwiddie has been just as efficient as Kyrie scoring the ball this year, is a better defender, much more durable and doesn't come with the self-imploding nature of Kyrie. Then you toss in DFS, probably Dallas' most important non-Luka player and their only really reliable wing defender, plus the potential picks.

Luka needed help with this Dallas team before, but this was a rash, poorly conceived move that will seal their fate when it comes to retaining Luka, unless they can somehow quickly wash their hands of Kyrie and get a considerably better player in his place.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think Dallas is worse than they were before the trade. Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie, he scores a decent amount more points, although Dinwiddie has been just as efficient as Kyrie scoring the ball this year, is a better defender, much more durable and doesn't come with the self-imploding nature of Kyrie. Then you toss in DFS, probably Dallas' most important non-Luka player and their only really reliable wing defender, plus the potential picks.

Luka needed help with this Dallas team before, but this was a rash, poorly conceived move that will seal their fate when it comes to retaining Luka, unless they can somehow quickly wash their hands of Kyrie and get a considerably better player in his place.
I don't feel qualified to comment on whether this makes it more or less likely that Luka leaves Dallas, but saying "Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie" is like saying that a heart attack is a worse ailment than an ingrown hair. Per DARKO, Kyrie is surrounded on the list by Kawhi and Dame, while Dinwiddie is surrounded by Gary Trent Jr. and Obi Toppin.

One can certainly believe that this deal thinned out an already thin Dallas roster, and I'd agree. But as much as one might like Dinwiddie, and he certainly has looked like a good player at times, the numbers really don't back it up. The big asset in this deal leaving Dallas is an unprotected pick six years from now.
 

benhogan

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I think Dallas is worse than they were before the trade. Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie, he scores a decent amount more points, although Dinwiddie has been just as efficient as Kyrie scoring the ball this year, is a better defender, much more durable and doesn't come with the self-imploding nature of Kyrie. Then you toss in DFS, probably Dallas' most important non-Luka player and their only really reliable wing defender, plus the potential picks.

Luka needed help with this Dallas team before, but this was a rash, poorly conceived move that will seal their fate when it comes to retaining Luka, unless they can somehow quickly wash their hands of Kyrie and get a considerably better player in his place.
So Brooklyn is slightly better now? and much better if they use that Dallas picks to add talent in the next few days?

Both Dinwiddie and DFS are better than Rui Hachimura (people actually like him a lot) BUT Kyrie's on-court play bends defenses and he'll probably bring it over the next 30 games so he can get paid.
 

Auger34

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So the Mavs crunch time 5 is Kyrie-Luka-Hardaway-Wood/Bullock-Kleber?

I don’t think that line-up is getting to the finals (to me, I would say before conference finals)
 

Cellar-Door

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yeah, Kyrie is a lot better than Dinwiddie, he's a more efficient scorer despite much higher volume, he's a better rebounder and likely defender as well, he turns it over less despite higher usage, he's just across the board better.

He's also built more for the playoffs, Dinwiddie has a high ISO rate this year but isn't good at it, Kyrie is one of the best ISO guards in the league.

Now there is some real question about where a team with no depth and few plus defenders can go in the playoffs, as well as fit concerns, but I don't htink there is much doubt that Kyrie is by far the best talent in this deal.
 

Kliq

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I don't feel qualified to comment on whether this makes it more or less likely that Luka leaves Dallas, but saying "Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie" is like saying that a heart attack is a worse ailment than an ingrown hair. Per DARKO, Kyrie is surrounded on the list by Kawhi and Dame, while Dinwiddie is surrounded by Gary Trent Jr. and Obi Toppin.

One can certainly believe that this deal thinned out an already thin Dallas roster, and I'd agree. But as much as one might like Dinwiddie, and he certainly has looked like a good player at times, the numbers really don't back it up. The big asset in this deal leaving Dallas is an unprotected pick six years from now.
Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie for sure, but is the gap really that big? Kyrie scores more points (again, during a time in the league where it has never been easier to score points) at good efficiency. Dinwiddie and Kyrie have basically the exact same eFG% and TS%, with Kyrie obviously taking more shots per game. Dinwiddie isn't a good defender, but he is better than Kyrie and his size is less problematic on defense, especially in a playoff series where guys start hunting matchups more frequently. He's also considerably more durable. That isn't even considering the wild card of Kyrie being Kyrie and the questions that come with that. I'd probably rather have Dinwiddie because he is a safer bet, although obviously the ceiling with Kyrie is theoretically higher and Dallas feels like they HAVE to swing for the fences here. There is so much evidence over the last 6 years that Kyrie is never hitting his theoretical ceiling that I really can't believe teams are still riding on it, and yet here we are.

So Brooklyn is slightly better now? and much better if they use that Dallas picks to add talent in the next few days?
I think so. Brooklyn is all about Durant coming back and playing hard and being at the level he was at before he got injured. Who knows what happens with Durant now, but I like how their team is comprised more now that they don't have the Kyrie wildcard stirring the pot. DFS gives them a big physical wing that should shoot well enough to keep defenses honest. A huge problem with Brooklyn was their lack of size on defense and the need to play a bunch of small guards, which is how the Celtics completely shredded them last year. Now they can roll out a lineup of Dinwiddie/O'Neale/Durant/DFS/Claxton, which is a big, strong, switchable rotation of defenders while also having a good amount of shooting to play around Durant.

They will miss Kyrie's creation and his ability to create without Durant, but they will be much stouter defensively and they can more comfortably work in players like Seth Curry to give them some extra offense without worrying about playing two small guards. They are not a real title contender because they won't have enough firepower unless Cam Thomas turns into SGA overnight, but I don't think they were a serious title contender with Kyrie so it doesn't move the needle that much. They lost the Kyrie bad juju, and the roster composition makes more sense for the modern NBA.
 

JM3

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Since when has Dinwiddie been "durable"? He's played more than 68 games in a season once in his career.

Kyrie is also not particularly mentally or physically durable, but including this year he's played 54 games per season compared to 49 for Dinwiddie (not including this partial season it's 56 to 48).

Also, by all advanced metrics Kyrie appears to be a better defensive player than Dinwiddie & would be better able to defend the other team's point guard.
 

benhogan

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Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie for sure, but is the gap really that big? Kyrie scores more points (again, during a time in the league where it has never been easier to score points) at good efficiency. Dinwiddie and Kyrie have basically the exact same eFG% and TS%, with Kyrie obviously taking more shots per game. Dinwiddie isn't a good defender, but he is better than Kyrie and his size is less problematic on defense, especially in a playoff series where guys start hunting matchups more frequently. He's also considerably more durable. That isn't even considering the wild card of Kyrie being Kyrie and the questions that come with that. I'd probably rather have Dinwiddie because he is a safer bet, although obviously the ceiling with Kyrie is theoretically higher and Dallas feels like they HAVE to swing for the fences here. There is so much evidence over the last 6 years that Kyrie is never hitting his theoretical ceiling that I really can't believe teams are still riding on it, and yet here we are.



I think so. Brooklyn is all about Durant coming back and playing hard and being at the level he was at before he got injured. Who knows what happens with Durant now, but I like how their team is comprised more now that they don't have the Kyrie wildcard stirring the pot. DFS gives them a big physical wing that should shoot well enough to keep defenses honest. A huge problem with Brooklyn was their lack of size on defense and the need to play a bunch of small guards, which is how the Celtics completely shredded them last year. Now they can roll out a lineup of Dinwiddie/O'Neale/Durant/DFS/Claxton, which is a big, strong, switchable rotation of defenders while also having a good amount of shooting to play around Durant.

They will miss Kyrie's creation and his ability to create without Durant, but they will be much stouter defensively and they can more comfortably work in players like Seth Curry to give them some extra offense without worrying about playing two small guards. They are not a real title contender because they won't have enough firepower unless Cam Thomas turns into SGA overnight, but I don't think they were a serious title contender with Kyrie so it doesn't move the needle that much. They lost the Kyrie bad juju, and the roster composition makes more sense for the modern NBA.
That's fair, and the size/construction built around D is compelling with Durant as their cheat code on offense.

Playing Kyrie with Paddy or Curry was problematic in a playoff scenario.
 

radsoxfan

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Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie for sure, but is the gap really that big?
I posted this earlier with a couple other players on there.. ..but yes, the gap is that big. It's not remotely close, don't try to rationalize it with eFG% and TS%.

I'm as anti Kyrie as it gets, and there are plenty of fit and off-course reasons to think this won't work well for Dallas.

But Kyrie only being a little better than Dinwiddie is definitely not on the list.KI-SD.png
 

joe dokes

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They will miss Kyrie's creation and his ability to create without Durant, but they will be much stouter defensively and they can more comfortably work in players like Seth Curry to give them some extra offense without worrying about playing two small guards. They are not a real title contender because they won't have enough firepower unless Cam Thomas turns into SGA overnight, but I don't think they were a serious title contender with Kyrie so it doesn't move the needle that much. They lost the Kyrie bad juju, and the roster composition makes more sense for the modern NBA.
I agree that they aren't title contenders. I wonder how much the Nets are giving thought to moving KD, too.
 

ManicCompression

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The big asset in this deal leaving Dallas is an unprotected pick six years from now.
In terms of pure assets, yes. In a vacuum, Dinwiddie, DFS, and a far out first rounder isn't the most outlandish price. But the biggest sacrifice Dallas is making with this trade is in terms of opportunity cost. Could players/picks/swaps get a better, more reliable number 2 for Luka in the summer? IMO yes - this feels impatient considering the amount of player movement we see every offseason vs. the kind of deals we see at the deadline.
 

Kliq

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I posted this earlier with a couple other players on there.. ..but yes, the gap is that big. It's not remotely close, don't try to rationalize it with eFG% and TS%.

I'm as anti Kyrie as it gets, and there are plenty of fit and off-course reasons to think this won't work well for Dallas.

But Kyrie only being a little better than Dinwiddie is definitely not on the list.View attachment 60898
Kyrie is a nut who will almost assuredly undermine his teammates and cap the team's ceiling with his inconsistent behavior. I don't care that DARKO says he is better. He's undermined every team he has been on since the 2016 Finals. He's a massive injury risk to boot. He couldn't make it work playing with Durant, the J's, Harden and now Durant. Yes, I'd rather have the less talented, but infinitely more stable and non-cancerous Dinwiddie on my team that the team-killing enigma that is Kyrie Irving.

This is reminding me of the Ben Simmons debate from a few years ago, where people were very insistent that Ben Simmons was a very good NBA player even though he was afraid to play basketball.
 

Jimbodandy

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Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie for sure, but is the gap really that big? Kyrie scores more points (again, during a time in the league where it has never been easier to score points) at good efficiency. Dinwiddie and Kyrie have basically the exact same eFG% and TS%, with Kyrie obviously taking more shots per game. Dinwiddie isn't a good defender, but he is better than Kyrie and his size is less problematic on defense, especially in a playoff series where guys start hunting matchups more frequently. He's also considerably more durable. That isn't even considering the wild card of Kyrie being Kyrie and the questions that come with that. I'd probably rather have Dinwiddie because he is a safer bet, although obviously the ceiling with Kyrie is theoretically higher and Dallas feels like they HAVE to swing for the fences here. There is so much evidence over the last 6 years that Kyrie is never hitting his theoretical ceiling that I really can't believe teams are still riding on it, and yet here we are.



I think so. Brooklyn is all about Durant coming back and playing hard and being at the level he was at before he got injured. Who knows what happens with Durant now, but I like how their team is comprised more now that they don't have the Kyrie wildcard stirring the pot. DFS gives them a big physical wing that should shoot well enough to keep defenses honest. A huge problem with Brooklyn was their lack of size on defense and the need to play a bunch of small guards, which is how the Celtics completely shredded them last year. Now they can roll out a lineup of Dinwiddie/O'Neale/Durant/DFS/Claxton, which is a big, strong, switchable rotation of defenders while also having a good amount of shooting to play around Durant.

They will miss Kyrie's creation and his ability to create without Durant, but they will be much stouter defensively and they can more comfortably work in players like Seth Curry to give them some extra offense without worrying about playing two small guards. They are not a real title contender because they won't have enough firepower unless Cam Thomas turns into SGA overnight, but I don't think they were a serious title contender with Kyrie so it doesn't move the needle that much. They lost the Kyrie bad juju, and the roster composition makes more sense for the modern NBA.
I get that you'd rather have Dinwiddie because Kyrie is as nutty as squirrel poo. That's understandable. But your dislike of Kyrie seems to be clouding your judgment concerning the difference between these two players.

If you don't like DARKO, we can use BBRef BPM:

Plr Car 2023 2022
KI 4.5 3.6 3.0
SD 0.4 0.9 2.9

It doesn't tell you that much if you only look at last year, but Kyrie has three seasons over 7 and was a 5.5 in 2021. Dinwiddie's career best in 2022 was great, but he's never been in that ballpark before or since. Most of his seasons have been within 1 BPM of neutral or worse, including this one.

Or we can look at LEBRON instead:

Plr 2023 2022 2021
KI 2.42 2.14 3.38
SD 0.29 0.44 -1.34


TL;DR; These guys aren't really good comps. Kyrie is a superior player on the court by the numbers test and the eye test. FWIW, I'd rather have Dinwiddie too. I'd rather have a kid from Reggie's team, because chances are good that he's not going to post antisemitic thoughts and deny science and shit. But we're judging them as players in this context.

edit: you've posted while I was typing this. If we don't care if Kyrie is superior, my post is moot.
 

radsoxfan

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Kyrie is a nut who will almost assuredly undermine his teammates and cap the team's ceiling with his inconsistent behavior. I don't care that DARKO says he is better. He's undermined every team he has been on since the 2016 Finals. He's a massive injury risk to boot. He couldn't make it work playing with Durant, the J's, Harden and now Durant. Yes, I'd rather have the less talented, but infinitely more stable and non-cancerous Dinwiddie on my team that the team-killing enigma that is Kyrie Irving.

This is reminding me of the Ben Simmons debate from a few years ago, where people were very insistent that Ben Simmons was a very good NBA player even though he was afraid to play basketball.
You've now shifted the argument away from the attempted on-court comparison to "Kyrie is nuts".

Probably a good idea, as this argument is much stronger.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, perhaps the most misunderstood thing about NBA players.... efficiency at much higher volumes is MUCH MUCH harder and MUCH MUCH more valuable than efficiency at lower volume.
Using 29% of possessions, having a TOV% of 9.2, and putting up an TS% of .604 is absurd, and more valuable both in production and projection than the guy putting up the .599 with 10.3 TOV% on 22% usage.

And that's in one of the best half-seasons of Dinwiddie's career. If you do last 3 seasons the TOV% gap is steady, USG is a bigger gap, and the TS gap goes to .605 vs. .570.

Kyrie is one of the consistently best guys in the league for guards at efficient scoring without turning it over... he's excellent at it.
 

Kliq

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You've now shifted the argument away from the attempted on-court comparison to "Kyrie is nuts".
Not true at all. My original argument was that I think Dallas is worse off than they were before the trade, precisely because Kyrie is nuts. I even wrote "Kyrie is better player than Dinwiddie" in my post, it's only a few posts above this one.
 

Jimbodandy

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around the way
Not true at all. My original argument was that I think Dallas is worse off than they were before the trade, precisely because Kyrie is nuts. I even wrote "Kyrie is better player than Dinwiddie" in my post, it's only a few posts above this one.
You're leaving out the "but is the gap really that big" part. It is big. It's enormous by any metric.

That said, the soft skills stuff is no bullshit. Kyrie is like a great drummer with a drug problem. Brooklyn is probably as glad to see him go as Dallas is to have him, but Dallas needs a good drummer with their music about to drop and shows already scheduled at the best clubs.
 

Cellar-Door

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The best line I've seen summing up this trade for the Mavs came from Zach Harper (The Athletic):

The Mavs’ ceiling is higher, but the floor is now lava.
 

mcpickl

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It's possible that Dallas may already have blown its shot at Luka and this may be the one last attempt to salvage it. I mean does Dallas have a path to getting a player better than KI in the near future?

My guess is that KI is going to play it super nice for the next 30 games. He'll say what he said to Harden - "You have the ball, I'll play off ball" - and we'll see how far that might take them. As almost everyone has pointed out, there are real issues on defense with Luka and KI but my guess is that they'll score enough to win more than they lose but I doubt they will have a long playoff run.

At that point, DAL basically has to give KI a max or near-max. And then let's see what happens.
We can't know for sure, but star players tend to pop up on the market pretty regularly nowadays.

I think it's likely Durant is back on the block this summer.

If Dallas doesn't make this deal, and lets Brooklyn trade Kyrie elsewhere, they'd be able to offer 4 1sts, 3 2nds, three 1st round pick swaps, Dinwiddie, DFS.

Maybe that gets them in the conversation for Durant or some other star.

The problem they have now is they have no good contracts to send out, all their matching big contracts left are bad, and they've given leverage to Kyrie.

Now they have to hope Kyrie fits, then re-signs with them, then keeps it together for the length of that contract. Those chances seem remote. And yet, they still have to hope he re-signs, or at least plays ball with them in a sign and trade. If he walks they have less than max cap space, even if they renounce everybody, and a really barren roster.

Putting a whole lot of eggs in the Kyrie basket, and living and dying on his whims that change with the wind, is perilous.
 
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Kliq

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I agree that they aren't title contenders. I wonder how much the Nets are giving thought to moving KD, too.
My suggestion for the Nets in the off-season when KD requested the trade was to just trade KD/Kyrie and start over. I don't think they are a title contender, and unless Durant can lure an available superstar to Brooklyn, they aren't going to be one in the future. The whole thing has been a disaster, but the assets you would fetch in a trade for Durant (and apparently, Kyrie) would put the team on a decent starting path to a more sustainable future. Could Durant be moved in the next few days? Wow, that would seem incredible but the Kyrie trade might open the door for that possibility. It would sting to wave the white flag on the KD in Brooklyn era, but I think Brooklyn would feel a lot better at this time next year when they have young players and incoming draft picks to start a more sustainable franchise model.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.

It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
 

jon abbey

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My suggestion for the Nets in the off-season when KD requested the trade was to just trade KD/Kyrie and start over. I don't think they are a title contender, and unless Durant can lure an available superstar to Brooklyn, they aren't going to be one in the future. The whole thing has been a disaster, but the assets you would fetch in a trade for Durant (and apparently, Kyrie) would put the team on a decent starting path to a more sustainable future. Could Durant be moved in the next few days? Wow, that would seem incredible but the Kyrie trade might open the door for that possibility. It would sting to wave the white flag on the KD in Brooklyn era, but I think Brooklyn would feel a lot better at this time next year when they have young players and incoming draft picks to start a more sustainable franchise model.
But this isn't so feasible since they gave all their own picks to HOU in the extremely ill-advised Harden deal.