Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd
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I'm not sure I'd do that deal---I just find it easier to imagine that's the ask. Adding a third overall pick while still getting Crowder/IT/Nets/Zizic is just silly to me.
If DA portrayed IT as being 100% ready to go at the beginning of the season, and Clevaland's exam showed that his career was likely over, adding Tatum to the deal still would be too much. Given that the disparity in perception is actually far narrower, asking for Tatum is downright insane.
If this request was actually made, I really just see the original deal being voided as DA would realize that Cleveland is basically trying to renegotiate from square one.
If this request was actually made, I really just see the original deal being voided as DA would realize that Cleveland is basically trying to renegotiate from square one.
worry is if celts walk away they'll be suck with an unhappy IT? IT is leaving after this year. he'd still be playing for a big contract. plus, he's a fan fave i think the garden would show him enough love to him through the year. honestly, as someone who doesn't really like this trade in the first place, i don't think a collapse would be all that bad
I wouldn't just walk away---I'd file a grievance. It may well be that Celts played fast and loose, or that there's an honest misunderstanding about what was agreed to initially. But these are sophisticated parties and it's a huge transaction, I think at this point the most likely explanation is Cleveland is playing games.
We'll see.
I think the one of the non-LAL picks is likely how this gets resolved. Whether that's fair depends on how bad IT's hip is.
FWIW, the Cavs have IT(#3), Crowder(#99), and Zizic on their official online roster page.
http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/roster
http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/roster
I can't imagine the NBA wants to allow teams to set a precedent of using "medical" reasons as a shield for getting cold feet or to solicit offers from other teams. And, based on the reporting, those scenarios seem more likely than the Cavs suddenly getting concerned for IT's hip. So, yes, if the Cavs insist on Tatum, Ainge should walk and file a grievance.
If Boston walks away, why does Phoenix need to beat their offer? They aren't going to increase their offer to compete with a deal that's no longer going to happen especially given the execrable state of Eric Bledsoe's knees in light of Boston's difficulties.
He knew, roughly, what it would take, but he needed another star to make it work, which meant that the deals had to wait until after the Hayward signing. Neither team was willing to wait.
That's madness. Jaylen Brown is 2 years of development ahead of the as-yet-theoretical Nets pick; his current development trajectory is probably 60th percentile of the expected result of that pick. With lower variance, and adding value today rather than a year from now. I'm a big fan of what the Nets pick can bring us, but Jaylen Brown ought to be thought of as more valuable than the Brooklyn pick, not less.
If Ainge offers that, he's a fool. And Ainge is no fool.
The app is there as a courtesy, but we all know it fucking sucks in general and can't handle even basic web posting. If you use it, that's fine, but be aware that it's fucking shitty in general and go ahead and use the actual site when it's incompetent. Don't ask people to pander to its incompetence.
It seems strange to me that both Cavs fans and Celtics fans are thinking "F them! We have all the leverage!" I hope that the GM's involved aren't as foolish.
I did not want the trade to happen in the first place, and will be very OK with both teams walking away. But it would be a mistake for both teams to try and drag this out hoping that the other side caves. If the Cavs are afraid of Thomas' injury they should just say so and either try to work out a different deal or simply walk away.
I did not want the trade to happen in the first place, and will be very OK with both teams walking away. But it would be a mistake for both teams to try and drag this out hoping that the other side caves. If the Cavs are afraid of Thomas' injury they should just say so and either try to work out a different deal or simply walk away.
I would imagine that CLE is just trying to leverage this into an additional 1st round pick. I would also imagine that DA is going to tell them to go shit in a hat. I would really be surprised if this trade was either amended OR voided.
I wouldn't be surprised by a token face-saving second rounder being added. Other GMs will know that's just Ainge saying "ok, here, you 'negotiated'" and won't think it's open season.
But if Altman insists more than that, then I think an earlier observation here will prove prescient: Adam Silver can't and won't stand to see the trade process evolve to being a farce, with teams making 'deals' just as a signaling mechanism to get a better deal or try and get leverage, and then backing out of them over vague, unsubstantiated concerns over the physical.
Voiding a trade over a physical, as a matter of league procedure, exists to prevent the receiving team discovering a problem with the player that the sending team (1) legitimately didn't know about, or (2) actively misrepresented the state of. Other than that, no take-backsies really ought to apply.
But if Altman insists more than that, then I think an earlier observation here will prove prescient: Adam Silver can't and won't stand to see the trade process evolve to being a farce, with teams making 'deals' just as a signaling mechanism to get a better deal or try and get leverage, and then backing out of them over vague, unsubstantiated concerns over the physical.
Voiding a trade over a physical, as a matter of league procedure, exists to prevent the receiving team discovering a problem with the player that the sending team (1) legitimately didn't know about, or (2) actively misrepresented the state of. Other than that, no take-backsies really ought to apply.
Right, but who is giving them a king's ransom for him, when they know he's headed to an LA team next year? The Lakers would be stupid to, since they can just wait and he's not making a difference this year. Clips don't have all that much to offer for one year and no guarantee. I'm failing to see a situation of a team that wouldn't have to decimate their team salary cap wise to fit him in and it would be worth it.
He'd have to, wouldn't he? That said, if they trade Kyrie and IT can't play, you'd have to think he'd want out. As would Love. In fact, it might be a best case scenario for LeBron, PR-wise. He doesn't have to leave Cleveland again, instead he gets traded away to jumpstart a rebuilt...
Again, we are thinking about this from the Celtics side of things. If Cleveland made the deal predicated on Thomas being able to play, say, a month into the season and, upon evaluation, their medical team now estimates a spring return, that lends legitimacy to their claim for more compensation. We simply don't know the exact details of what was shared and agreed to other than the principals in the trade.
Given their public ask for one of two almost untouchable assets, this appears to be heading in a bad direction. Once again, assuming Thomas and Crowder are professional enough to return without causing any beef, what does Boston do with Thomas' salary slot? Not only is it clear Ainge never intended to resign him but he almost certainly won't return to the Celtics for Brinks truck money even if his hip magically mends itself and he can perform at the same level as last season. So Ainge can walk away but this puts the team in an even bigger bind.
I hate to say it but they Celtics may be surrendering more than a trivial piece here to complete this trade.
Given their public ask for one of two almost untouchable assets, this appears to be heading in a bad direction. Once again, assuming Thomas and Crowder are professional enough to return without causing any beef, what does Boston do with Thomas' salary slot? Not only is it clear Ainge never intended to resign him but he almost certainly won't return to the Celtics for Brinks truck money even if his hip magically mends itself and he can perform at the same level as last season. So Ainge can walk away but this puts the team in an even bigger bind.
I hate to say it but they Celtics may be surrendering more than a trivial piece here to complete this trade.
As fun as it may be, LeBron trade speculations should be in another thread.
Back to topic, 100% agree with Instas' take. A second rounder to save face. Otherwise, I'm fine with walking away or a non-binding interjection from the league offices.
Getting annoyed at the breathless "Caves are asking for Brown/Tatum!" takes on Twitter and other places too.
Back to topic, 100% agree with Instas' take. A second rounder to save face. Otherwise, I'm fine with walking away or a non-binding interjection from the league offices.
Getting annoyed at the breathless "Caves are asking for Brown/Tatum!" takes on Twitter and other places too.
There's not even close to 15 teams that adding Lebron to makes them a title contender.
I am not a NBA-trade expert, but to what extend do teams need to disclose injuries to their trade partner? This may hold the key how the discussion will unfold and how Silver will assess the situation.
I just don't agree that they are screwed. And if Ainge always intended to not re-sign IT but also thinks they are screwed without a premium PG, then why pass on Fultz/Ball (or, after trading down Fox or Smith?) It doesn't make a lot of sense as a whole. My guess is that Ainge (and Stevens) were content to let the IT thing play out, go with Smart if IT left, etc., and this trade doesn't really change that too much.
While I don't agree with others here on how good Kyrie is, I think this deal was more one of opportunity to add a premium player, not the result of Danny thinking he had to move on from IT this off-season.
I guess the other possibility is that Wyc is in love with Irving and is instructing Danny to get it done, but that doesn't seem like his style.
Two things. The Cs were never going to resign IT and they don't care about his salary slot. If you look at this post-Hayward cap analysis, signing IT to a $25MM contract would put the C's salaries at over $180MM which climbs to $211MM including luxury taxes. That wasn't going to happen even if IT were a paragon of health.
As for IT's playing this year, last reports I saw was that he was already shooting and getting in his conditioning. IT wants to play, he needs to play, and he's going to play. The bigger issue is how long he is out the next time he gets injured.
Pretty much any team that made the playoffs last year would be a contender with LBJ, except for those that have lost key assets (Bulls, Pacers, Jazz). I think LeBron vaults the T-Wolves or Pelicans into instant contention too. That's exactly 15 teams.
Of course, only a subset of those 15 teams could offer the Cavs a plausible trade package and still have enough talent to contend, so your broader point that there wouldn't be a long line of teams interested in a one-year LBJ rental (even if he didn't have an NTC) is correct.
It's not just that their absurd (alleged) ask is for assets that are so out sync with the value that would need to be conveyed to compensate for a later-than-expected return date on IT. It's that neither of those assets fix that the problem. Are they gonna flip Tatum or Brown for another PG? This has all the appearance of a team that either got cold feet or where a player is actually the final say and is forcing a rookie GM to use what opportunity he can to back out of a trade.
Before the floating of Tatum/Brown, a second rounder or even the C's own first would be a "face-saving" piece that could possibly have worked. Now that those names are out there, getting valueless draft picks doesn't really save anything for Cleveland.
To raise the issue and let it get public, and then to allegedly ask for Tatum or Brown- perhaps more significant assets than any included by Boston in the original trade, and neither of whom address the hole that IT's injury creates- is basically voiding the deal. There's no way either of those pieces work at all within the existing framework.
Good. Stick to your guns, Danny...
Adam KaufmanVerified account @AdamMKaufman
Per @ChrisMannixYS on @CSNNE, #Celtics will draw line in sand. May part with a 2nd Rd pick to complete #Cavs deal. No firsts/Brown/Tatum.
Adam KaufmanVerified account @AdamMKaufman
Per @ChrisMannixYS on @CSNNE, #Celtics will draw line in sand. May part with a 2nd Rd pick to complete #Cavs deal. No firsts/Brown/Tatum.
At some point the league has to be involved right? My understanding is when completing the trade on the league call, both teams have to state the medical condition and concerns of any player in the deal and the accepting team has to acknowledge that they understand the situation with each player. I can see a situation where there is a difference of opinion to some degree upon exam, but I can't imagine the Celtics can be actually accused of misrepresenting the situation on a call that is on the record with the league. So I would think at some point, or it possibly is ongoing right now, that the league would be involved with the teams working toward completing the deal.
One potential problem is that if the Cavs medical staff thinks IT cant play this year this trade might not work for LBJ for anything less than adding Brown/Tatum/LAL pick to give the Cavs two premium assets to flip for help this year. Even with the strong incentives both sides have to get this done I think there's a pretty good chance this reaches an impasse.
Why would the league get involved? The Cavs have the right to do their own physicals and they have the right to fail IT on the physical, thus voiding the trade. This has happened before in the NBA and the other sports (Peter Angelos is famous for this) though nothing this high profile. I don't see why the ordinary process doesn't work here.
If the Cavs want to void the trade, bully for them. As presently constituted, the Cs probably weren't winning the title this year anyways. Even if IT doesn't play to the level he set last year (and that was always a possibility given his injury), the Cs still have their assets: four years of Hayeward, JB, Tatum, two potential lottery picks, Smart, etc.
Let's put it another way. How much value does IT playing ball from Spring to June 2018 have?
Certainly not Tatum or Braun. And the trade makes a lot of sense as is if IT is damaged goods.
Certainly not Tatum or Braun. And the trade makes a lot of sense as is if IT is damaged goods.
This is the way I looked at the deal too and remember reading one of the C's beat writers (Kaufman, I believe) saying that the C's put the Nets pick in play in order to convince CLE form doing exactly what they're doing. Yes, IT may not play the whole season and may not be the same, but here's this shiny Nets pick to make up for it. They aren't getting a better draft pick than that for Irving. Now the two teams get to play a game of chicken and see who blinks first. If I was Danny, I wouldn't add anything else to the deal and tell CLE to go find a better offer. But if he does add something to the offer, it shouldn't be anything close to Brown, Tatum or another premium pick. Maybe the LAC pick, maybe next year's C's pick. Something along those lines. And I'd be a little pissed if Danny did that.
I think what teams disclosed and agreed to determines the above. Let's imagine the negotiation was Celtics saying "we don't know IT's prognosis beyond the med records", Cleveland said "we'll take him as-is if you add in Nets pick" and Celtics say "Deal". If that were the case, I'd think league would want to be clear that teams need to agree on contingencies and such before announcements are made, and that league will hold teams to what is committed. Otherwise, you set up a ton of these situations in the future, which is a bad look for all.
Why does the league care? Some of it is credibility of the process, and some is to protect the player in question from having his rep/health become a ping-pong ball. That latter issue is a place I'd expect player's association to get involved at some point/in some scenario.
So, I think it is only on specific facts league would get involved---but in those, I think they have good incentives to do so. And no idea if those facts actually exist here.
What's "significant"?
I mean, I thought the Celtics were very transparent about the fact that it was a significant, potentially chronic injury that was likely to keep him out at least for the start of the season, and might require surgery. Despite that, every pundit in the hoops universe seemed to give Altman and the Cavs some variant of an A++++++ for the deal, and the Celtics somewhere between a B and a D.
So the Cavs decide, lo, it's a significant injury and may require surgery, all of a sudden it's a bad trade for the Cavs? If he ends up having the surgery and missing the whole season — which has the side benefit of a measure of certainty, allowing them to install Rose at starting PG and not have to play the annoying waiting game — that just pushes it closer to a fair trade, imho.
I mean, I thought the Celtics were very transparent about the fact that it was a significant, potentially chronic injury that was likely to keep him out at least for the start of the season, and might require surgery. Despite that, every pundit in the hoops universe seemed to give Altman and the Cavs some variant of an A++++++ for the deal, and the Celtics somewhere between a B and a D.
So the Cavs decide, lo, it's a significant injury and may require surgery, all of a sudden it's a bad trade for the Cavs? If he ends up having the surgery and missing the whole season — which has the side benefit of a measure of certainty, allowing them to install Rose at starting PG and not have to play the annoying waiting game — that just pushes it closer to a fair trade, imho.
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If the difference in medical opinions is really that far apart, take IT4 out of the deal altogether. Trading injured players who may or may not still need surgery is tough.
I'm not of the opinion that this is a medical condition that wasn't disclosed. Yes, Cleveland has a right to do their own physical exam, but it still has to be in good faith. They can't acknowledge an injury on the league call and then suddenly have issues with a disclosed injury to attempt to pry more from the deal. That's my point, if the physical shows what was disclosed, I would think the league call would be something that would bind the parties and the league would get involved to remind Cleveland that they assumed that risk, acknowledged that condition, and made the deal fully aware of the condition and risk.
I think the Cavs front office are getting their strategic leads from this Cavs forum: http://realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/welcome-isaiah-thomass-injured-hip.48253/page-27
Then there is no incentive to trade the Nets pick. The Nets pick was pretty much the 'here, accept IT4 as is, and you can have this prize' reason to trade something that valuable in the first place, from the way the Celtics were talking. Take IT4 out, and you basically have to start over from scratch because that pick should be taken out too.
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