Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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RG33

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My 7 cents:

* I think the Celtics gave up a lot -- but it takes a lot to get a 25 year star player in the NBA. I am comfortable with it.

* People need to get a grip on the BKN pick. I would have been much more hesitant if they had given up the LAL pick. I think it is fairly likely that BKN has a better season than LAL with Deangelo/Lin/Crabbe/Carroll/Mozgov.

* I would bet Ainge had the option of giving up Tatum or the BKN pick, and without hesitation chose the BKN pick. I would have done the same thing.

* I love IT. I feel sad about IT not being on the Cetlics. With that said, there was NO WAY that Ainge was re-signing IT. None. He was gone.

* The "Stevens Effect" has been heavily discounted here on Kyrie, yet universally accepted when talking about Crowder and IT. Remember what Crowder and IT were before joining the Celtics? To think that a similar effect couldn't happen on an already championship-proven Kyrie is silly.

* We may look back on this trade much like we did the Pierce/Garnett trade -- that Ainge having the balls to do this when he did it was a franchise-altering decision that wasn't universally lauded at the time.

* Irving 25/Smart 23/Hayward 27/Brown 20/Tatum 19 is one helluva talented young core to build a team around. I am excited.
 

Sprowl

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As a penalty, the NBA should remove the pick protections.
Unfortunately, the protections belong to the 76ers, while the Lakers are the ones who deserve the wrath of Dickens.

Perhaps a little collateral damage to Philly in the interests of plot development?
 

The Social Chair

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-- Kyrie will never be a huge endorsement guy like LBJ, KD, Curry, et al., and he already has a ring. He's the textbook case of a guy you'd expect to take the biggest monetary offer when he hits the market in 2 years. No guarantees -- he might hate it here -- but no reason to expect he's a short-term acquisition.

-
Agree with most of your points but I think you are downplaying Kyrie's popularity. He has the 2nd best selling sneakers in the NBA and he has a endorsement deal with Pepsi that predates Lebron's return to Cleveland.
 

BigSoxFan

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Agree with most of your points but I think you are downplaying Kyrie's popularity. He has the 2nd best selling sneakers in the NBA and he has a endorsement deal with Pepsi that predates Lebron's return to Cleveland.
And he's now probably going to be the face of the NBA's most storied franchise. His marketability if he delivers just shot way up. I always felt that playing with a superstar helps the role players far more than the secondary stars. I mean, you have to basically remind me that Kevin Love is in the league right now.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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The NBA and the Celtics are entertainment. I am very disappointed that IT is gone. He was awesome to root for and, honestly, made me watch regular season games for the first time since the 'other' big three.

I am pumped for this season. They will be wildly entertaining at the very least... And I truly believe that the Brooklyn pick will end up having less value overall than Kyrie on the he Celtics

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moly99

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I am not a huge NBA expert in advanced stats.. But I call absolute bullshit on a Stat that has Crowder and Amir Johnson as the 20-21 ranked players. Can you explain this to me?
Johnson is a great defensive player, Crowder is one of the most underrated players in the NBA and both of those guys make the players around them better.

Basketball is a 5 on 5 sport. Often the critical player is the one setting a screen that creates an open layup rather than the guy shooting the ball.
 

Cellar-Door

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I really want you to unpack this--why is the 2018 Nets pick so much more valuable than the 2016 Nets pick or the 2017 Nets pick swap?
It's the classic unknown trick. Every year, next year's draft is completely loaded, multiple franchise players.... then it rolls around.. and it's similar to the year before. 2018 looks like a great draft, but the odds are the BKN pick isn't #1, and further the odds are whoever is drafted there is never going to be as good as Kyrie. However.... people always dream on the small chances.
 

Cellar-Door

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Johnson is a great defensive player, Crowder is one of the most underrated players in the NBA and both of those guys make the players around them better.

Basketball is a 5 on 5 sport. Often the critical player is the one setting a screen that creates a layup rather than the guy shooting the ball.
RPM is also a deeply flawed stat. It can tell us a lot of interesting things, it isn't really a ranking of the best players in order and shouldn't be used that way.
 

The Mort Report

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It may make the Celtics a little better but now Ainge and the Celtics made the Cavs better. They added Derek Rose(He has to be healthy.) And added IT, Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick. They are still better then the Celtics and will be better if they get a great pick next year and they keep Labron and IT who are free agents.
So that Derek Rose guy, hes been tearing it up the last few years, am I right? Come on, the Celtics improved their top 3-4, possibly hurt 4-8 but not definite, Cleveland hurt their to 3-4, and improved their 4-8. Games are won by the best players, not the role players. You really want Thomas in a big moment in a big game over Irving?
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Johnson is a great defensive player, Crowder is one of the most underrated players in the NBA and both of those guys make the players around them better.

Basketball is a 5 on 5 sport. Often the critical player is the one setting a screen that creates an open layup rather than the guy shooting the ball.
You are using an ESPN ranking to prove something that isn't measurable... Am I getting that right?

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Kid T

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Maybe I'm crazy but I like this deal.

With Boston's cap situation they can't sign a star for the next few years, and if the young guys pan out and require extensions then they never would be able to sign another star. That means their only avenue to get anyone is via trade. Even if it is an overpay talent-wise, part of the equation is the ability to acquire someone that the cap is preventing you from signing..
or they could do it the way most teams have....by drafting and developing them (and more likely/easily done near the top of the draft). The fact that they're strapped for cap space is one of the strongest arguments for keeping high draft choices. If those guys develop, yes you pay them and enter luxury tax hell...just like the (Champion) Warriors.
 

kazuneko

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I really want you to unpack this--why is the 2018 Nets pick so much more valuable than the 2016 Nets pick or the 2017 Nets pick swap?
There are a handful of studs at the top of that draft who look like they have true potential to be impact players.
That said, I wouldn't have been happy with this trade if Tatum or Brown was included instead of the 18' pick. Fair value for Irving would have looked very similar to this trade, except without including the number asset traded : the 18' pick.
It's a ridiculous overpay. Just compare this to what the Timberwolves gave up for Butler, an arguably superior player to Irving...
 

JCizzle

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There are a handful of studs at the top of that draft who look like they have true potential to be impact players.
That said, I wouldn't have been happy with this trade if Tatum or Brown was included instead of the 18' pick. Fair value for Irving would have looked very similar to this trade, except without including the number asset traded : the 18' pick.
It's a ridiculous overpay. Just compare this to what the Timberwolves gave up for Butler, an arguably superior player to Irving...
Yep. Exactly where I'm at. No way he costs this much without LeBron getting him a ring.
 

mcpickl

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People are talking overpay in this deal by mentioning Crowder and Zizic. Those two aren't in because of anything other than salary filler. The sweetener in this deal is the Nets pick. That's the thing that makes the deal in question. I've come around on it. It comes down to the fact that Kyrie and Hayward makes this team better in the playoffs.
That's nonsense.

They need to be in the deal to make the salaries match, that doesn't mean they're filler. Marcus Thornton, Keith Bogans, those guys are filler.

Zizic and Crowder are assets. Zizic a marginal one, Crowder a really good one. Having a solid player who's under contract for three years at half-price and would probably play 30 minutes a game in a theoretical fourth finals against the Warriors is really valuable.

Not filler in any way.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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So that Derek Rose guy, hes been tearing it up the last few years, am I right? Come on, the Celtics improved their top 3-4, possibly hurt 4-8 but not definite, Cleveland hurt their to 3-4, and improved their 4-8. Games are won by the best players, not the role players. You really want Thomas in a big moment in a big game over Irving?
Define big moment.

Its an indisputable fact that Thomas cannot defend well, at all. Its arguable that Kyrie can defend adequately, occasionally. Its also indisputable that Thomas has been the better overall offensive player over the past three seasons. I get the age difference and I will even grant those who point out that we may well have seen Thomas peak season.

However given recent data, there is little to argue that Kyrie is anything other than a marginal upgrade over Thomas. You are also discounting Crowder too much imho. He is no superstar but he will make the Cavs better because of his versatility. He is going to give them another weapon against Golden State and if Thomas is healthy, the Cavs can scheme enough defensively to cover up for him while allowing him and LeBron to play pick your poison against the opposition.
 

RedOctober3829

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That's nonsense.

They need to be in the deal to make the salaries match, that doesn't mean they're filler. Marcus Thornton, Keith Bogans, those guys are filler.

Zizic and Crowder are assets. Zizic a marginal one, Crowder a really good one. Having a solid player who's under contract for three years at half-price and would probably play 30 minutes a game in a theoretical fourth finals against the Warriors is really valuable.

Not filler in any way.
I mean they're in the deal to make salaries match. They were in the deal regardless due to that reason. Im not saying they're bad players. The part of the trade that makes it expensive is the Nets pick.
 

BigSoxFan

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Define big moment.

Its an indisputable fact that Thomas cannot defend well, at all. Its arguable that Kyrie can defend adequately, occasionally. Its also indisputable that Thomas has been the better overall offensive player over the past three seasons. I get the age difference and I will even grant those who point out that we may well have seen Thomas peak season.

However given recent data, there is little to argue that Kyrie is anything other than a marginal upgrade over Thomas. You are also discounting Crowder too much imho. He is no superstar but he will make the Cavs better because of his versatility. He is going to give them another weapon against Golden State and if Thomas is healthy, the Cavs can scheme enough defensively to cover up for him while allowing him and LeBron to play pick your poison against the opposition.
Will be interesting to see how much Crowder likes his role in Cleveland. He's probably coming off the bench with the Thompson/Love/LeBron frontcourt pretty well established. Definitely gives them some lineup flexibility, particularly during instances where they need offense.
 

luckiestman

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We are on crybaby level ten in this thread. Holy shit.

Get on the bandwagon now and join the game threads this year because we are going to the finals. Fuck Golden State!!!
 

quint

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Thanks. Have you heard about the song I wrote for Mission Of Burma? There are literally hundreds of clips out there of his defense. But hey, those handles are sick!

I'm not concerned with handles. I'm more or less concerned with a clear upgrade at a position that will improve the Celtics. Now will any of his habits magically improve over the course of the next two years because of the Stevens factor?

No probably not, but Irving is the vastly superior commodity in this equation and if it doesn't work out Boston is out from under in two years.

They honestly haven't given up anything other than a lottery card. Or two. Maybe Zizic pans out.
 

moly99

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You are using an ESPN ranking to prove something that isn't measurable... Am I getting that right?

Sent from my XT1650 using SoSH mobile app
I don't think ESPN tracks Box Plus Minus. I mostly use basketball reference for stats. (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html)

Anyway I am not going to clog up this thread with further argument over the internet. I have never played in the NBA (quit after high school and wasn't that good then) and certainly don't have any knowledge the C's front office doesn't have. So I will just have to hope that I am wrong about Kyrie.
 

Ale Xander

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Was away at a concert, didn't find out about it now. Holy hell, they gave up too much.

Now have to root for the Nets. F that.
 

Sam Ray Not

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He is going to give them another weapon against Golden State.
Lol, you're already conceding the conference? I agree that Crowder fills a big hole for them (without him they're possibly the worst defensive team in the league) but I'm not sure he makes up for the downgrade from Kyrie to a banged up Isaiah Thomas.

Throw in their potential chemistry issues, lack of a legit C, and glut of players who are either on the wrong side of 30 (LeBron, JR Smith, Wade?), suck at defense (Love, IT, Rose), or both (Frye, Korver, Jeff Green), and I feel like they're ripe for the taking.

Give Hayward a slight uptick in performance for being 27 and LeBron a slight downtick for being 33, and I think I might take the Cs at even money.
 

Cellar-Door

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Define big moment.

Its an indisputable fact that Thomas cannot defend well, at all. Its arguable that Kyrie can defend adequately, occasionally. Its also indisputable that Thomas has been the better overall offensive player over the past three seasons. I get the age difference and I will even grant those who point out that we may well have seen Thomas peak season.

However given recent data, there is little to argue that Kyrie is anything other than a marginal upgrade over Thomas. You are also discounting Crowder too much imho. He is no superstar but he will make the Cavs better because of his versatility. He is going to give them another weapon against Golden State and if Thomas is healthy, the Cavs can scheme enough defensively to cover up for him while allowing him and LeBron to play pick your poison against the opposition.
I don't think the first is inarguable, unless you are averaging so as to include IT's crazy 2016-17. There is a good case Kyrie was the better offensive player the 2 years before last season, despite being in a secondary role. He was more efficient from the field, turned it over less, there's a solid argument that he was better offensively for those 2 years.

More importantly, he's been a remarkably consistent playoff performer, and has done so at a much higher level than IT who has seen his numbers take a major dive in the playoffs.

As to the latter, you are crazy. How do you hide IT when he's on the floor with guys like Love, JR, Zaza, Rose. YOU CAN'T HIDE GUARDS IN THE PLAYOFFS, it's pretty much impossible, we couldn't do it against WAS, nevermind when you start getting to the Golden States of the world.
 

quint

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Yes because Zizic, IT, Crowder and a yet to be disclosed positional draft pick (who may or may not pan out) is the next dominant Cleveland team.

Do any of you think about what you write or...

I keep forgetting this is the new SoSH.
 

Delcarmen Electra

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Jesus Christ. I am stunned that Danny got fleeced on two different trades this off season. He was better off just letting IT walk next summer and keeping the BRK pick.

If I'm Hayward, I'm seriously regretting my decision to sign with Boston.
 

djbayko

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I've been away from the Internet for several hours and I'm just learning about this trade.

What. The. Fuck.

Is he thinking? Our team was already going to be great as-is. Keep the lottery ticket, dammit! And to top it all off, Kyrie is extremely unlikable.
 

Kliq

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In fairness, the Cavs could have some chemistry issues next season, too. IT's not as natural a spot-up shooter as Kyrie (for one thing, he's a smaller target for LeBron); and adding Derrick Rose to the mix risks making them a clusterfuck on offense and a tire fire on defense.

Too bad the Cs had to throw in Crowder — without him the Cavs might be the worst defensive team in the league.
Thomas I think is actually better off-the ball than Irving is. Stevens ran a lot of off-ball plays for Thomas during the season and found different ways to get him the ball. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but I would imagine the Celtics ran several times the amount of off-ball stuff for Thomas than Cleveland did for Irving.
 

luckiestman

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Every Danny deal, people cry.

Pierce, KG... tears. No one admits it now

IT4... why make us better now, we should keep tanking.

AB signing... what an overpay, what is Ainge thinking

Rondo deal... who is Jae Crowder?

 

Cellar-Door

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I don't think ESPN tracks Box Plus Minus. I mostly use basketball reference for stats. (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html)

Anyway I am not going to clog up this thread with further argument over the internet. I have never played in the NBA (quit after high school and wasn't that good then) and certainly don't have any knowledge the C's front office doesn't have. So I will just have to hope that I am wrong about Kyrie.
You said RPM which is real plus minus an ESPN exclusive.
If you meant BPM, then you should know that it is not a particularly great stat, that even BBR admits has a ton of flaws, but they use it because it lets you compare to past years where the only data is box scores:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

Also, the raw BPM number doesn't even actually order the players, since a lower BPM in a higher % of minutes is more impactful.

Edit- edited to be less dickish
 
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nighthob

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I've been away from the Internet for several hours and I'm just learning about this trade.

What. The. Fuck.

Is he thinking? Our team was already going to be great as-is. Keep the lottery ticket, dammit! And to top it all off, Kyrie is extremely unlikable.
Probably something along the lines of "For the next six years we have top 25 guys in Hayward and Irving to let all the young guys develop on an actual title contender and still be able to build a dynasty around those two, Tatum, the Lakers pick, Brown, and Smart."

Just a thought.
 

Ale Xander

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Jesus Christ. I am stunned that Danny got fleeced on two different trades this off season. He was better off just letting IT walk next summer and keeping the BRK pick.
.
Agreed. Last 2 trades have me thinking Pagliuca is pulling the strings. It's like a Duke infatuation dream gone wrong.
 

nighthob

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You guys are serious about Bradley for Morris? I mean, really? Bradley was literally on his last year in Boston, and the Celtics traded him for a much longer player to be PF while creating the cap space to sign Hayward, Nader, and Ojeleye. I make that deal every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
 

Blacken

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Losing the Nets pick is a bummer. But there's still another stupid-good pick in the pipeline. Kyrie will still be in his prime in three years from now when this team is really ready to compete; in the interim we'll just have to settle for challenging in the Conference Finals. Darn.

And, hey: Brad Stevens is a player whisperer. We know Irving's floor. Do we know his ceiling, with a coach like Stevens? (I didn't give this line of thought much credence two years ago, but...)
 

OurF'ingCity

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I said this back at the beginning of the thread before it was revealed that the Brooklyn pick was part of the package but I think it still applies: Celtics traded uncertainty for certainty with this trade. As others have said already, at this point you more or less know what you are getting with Kyrie (I know Brad is a magician but I highly doubt Kyrie is going to break out some new level and turn into a perennial MVP candidate).

You are trading away both downside (IT's injury, Crowder affects the clubhouse, Brooklyn is decent this year) and upside (Zizic turns into a dependable role player, IT plays as good as last year, Brooklyn sucks). That doesn't really make this trade "good" or "bad" per se, they are just exchanging one future scenario for a different one.

That said I do think the Celtics "lost" this trade by giving up the Brooklyn pick instead of the LAL/SAC pick, if only due to the protections vs. non-protections point. But those suggesting that somehow Danny has cratered the team need to realize that there was a pretty small chance that the Brooklyn pick brings back some franchise-altering talent. Most likely, they would be getting another player like Brown and Tatum. How do we know that? Because they were in this exact same situation the last two years with the Brooklyn picks and that's who they ended up with!

The other thing to keep in mind is that Danny is not done - the roster is now open and the Celtics need a backup big man (probably a veteran) and a bench wing player to replace Zizic and Crowder. So it's still hard to judge exactly how good this team will be by Opening Day.
 

Delcarmen Electra

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You guys are serious about Bradley for Morris? I mean, really? Bradley was literally on his last year in Boston, and the Celtics traded him for a much longer player to be PF while creating the cap space to sign Hayward, Nader, and Ojeleye. I make that deal every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
No, I was referring to the Philly draft pick trade. I was fine with the Avery trade.

And as for the IT-Irving trade, it's not about the players. I'm fine with trading IT. And while it sucks, it's obvious they had to include Crowder for salary purposes. But including the Brooklyn pick was fucking ridiculous. Sam Presti got a way better player for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis. Getting the Nets unprotected #1, in addition to the rest of the haul, for ISO Kyrie should have the Celts' management group questioning Danny's sanity.
 

slamminsammya

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I have read nothing in the thread. I just want to register my anger. This is like when the Pats lost in 2007 - I avoided reading about football for months. I plan on avoiding this sub for a long time.
 

Cellar-Door

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No, I was referring to the Philly draft pick trade. I was fine with the Avery trade.

And as for the IT-Irving trade, it's not about the players. I'm fine with trading IT. And while it sucks, it's obvious they had to include Crowder for salary purposes. But including the Brooklyn pick was fucking ridiculous. Sam Presti got a way better player for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis. Getting the Nets unprotected #1, in addition to the rest of the haul, for ISO Kyrie should have the Celts' management group questioning Danny's sanity.
He got 1 year of an arguably better, older player. Also, just because 1 GM fucked up doesn't set the market, that was a weird timing based deal by a bad GM with a player who poisoned the waters by saying he wouldn't extend anywhere and wanted to sign in LA. This is a player with 2 years left who waived his kicker to get the deal done and made promising statements about re-signing.
We don't judge every star trade a failure for not getting 3 uprotected 1sts and swaps just because Billy King screwed up.

The better comparison is probably the Twolves/Bulls deal, but that's a harder comp, and again a deal that basically shuts out the possibility of getting Hayward.

Edit- Also there were a lot more suitors this time, we know of at least 1 pretty solid offer from PHX, that was better than what the Celtics could offer without giving up at least 1 of Brown/Tatum/BKN18/LAL18.

This may be a bit of an overpay, but it isn't crazy given the need to salary match and IT's low trade value.
 

nighthob

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No, I was referring to the Philly draft pick trade. I was fine with the Avery trade.

And as for the IT-Irving trade, it's not about the players. I'm fine with trading IT. And while it sucks, it's obvious they had to include Crowder for salary purposes. But including the Brooklyn pick was fucking ridiculous. Sam Presti got a way better player for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis. Getting the Nets unprotected #1, in addition to the rest of the haul, for ISO Kyrie should have the Celts' management group questioning Danny's sanity.
I don't think that was that much of a fleecing, but then I had Tatum as 1B on my draft board (that is I saw him as a legitimate option to Fultz at #1), and Boston getting an extra lottery pick for the guy they apparently preferred isn't a fleecing in my eyes.

I do wish that the Lakers pick conveyed 2-7 rather than 2-5, but there's still an excellent chance it conveys given that the West has 11 teams that look like 42+ win teams, and kiddie teams like LA are going to get pounded badly in that conference.
 
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