Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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Grin&MartyBarret

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This has been a terrific thread. Let's keep it that way.

SSSF is entitled to change his mind, GMB is entitled to call him on it (though he could've been less personal about it), and HRB smartly pointed out that "overrated" and "underrated" are meaningless labels when applied to a player like Crowder who is so differently assessed by intelligent people.

Let's move on.
Totally fair. SSSF and I have had some annoying back and forth in the past, none of which are worth rehashing.

Largely I'm just reacting to the way many people here have changed their views on Irving, the value of the Nets pick, etc. since the trade. Opinions can and should be able to change, I just think there tends to be a bit too much Danny Can Do No Wrong in here. And that's less because Ainge hasn't earned it, or that I have any particularly glaring critiques of him, and more because I think it makes this place far less interesting.
 

nighthob

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I think a lot of us began opining on the variability of the Nets pick when a good portion of the EC All Star team ended up going west this June and July. I still don't think the Nets will top 30 wins, but it's no longer past the point of believability. The bottom 2/3 of the conference really is that bad.

I do, however, think that Boston paid a fair price for Irving with a young prospect, one of the better 3&D wings in the NBA, and a guaranteed lottery pick. If Cleveland gets anything out of Lil' Zeke during their last hurrah, it's a huge win for them.

But all told I'd rather be in Boston's shoes where they now have two top 25 guys, Al Horford, a guy that has the talent to be a top ten player (Tatum), a couple of wildcards in Smart & Brown, plus a potential top five pick in a loaded draft.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Southshore does nothing but post hot takes. Here's what he said about Crowder earlier this summer: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?posts/2362109

But post trade? Crowder is an overrated wing, "blurs the line of what we refer to as an asset", and was "just salary filler."
Well did they dump him for a second round pick? Curious. Or was he part of a package for a superstar?

My point was there wasn't a rush to dump him for Hermangomez or a second rounder. He has value, but is largely overrated and was clearly redundant on this roster w GH, Tatum and Jaylen.

To toss him into a Kyrie package? No brainer.
 

JakeRae

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I'm with you on that, Crowder's primary value came from the contract, he gives you above average performance for sub-MLE money. So he can be valuable even though he's replaceable. That's sort of the way things are when you're discussing roleplayers.
Crowder's value comes from a combination of being a top-50 player in the league and being really cheap. It's not just the latter.

I still think those who consider Crowder to be "just a role player" have it wrong and the consensus of both statistics and the NBA community agrees. He ranked 51st last year in BPM for players with over 1500 minutes. He ranked 20th in RPM. ESPN's NBARank has him rated 38th. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank3150/nbarank-players-31-50. SI ranks him 44th. https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/12/top-100-nba-players-2018-carmelo-anthony-demar-derozan-joel-embiid

There may be some who will respond that a lower end of top 50 player is a role player in the NBA. That's not unreasonable. Comparable players are guys like Otto Porter and Andre Igoudala, neither of whom is someone you build a team around. But, if you do that, you need to distinguish between role players who are good enough to be key starters on a championship level team (Crowder is in this category), roleplayers who are rotation players on a championship caliber team, and roleplayers who are rotation players on playoff-caliber teams. Basically, it's too big a category.

Crowder is good enough to be a starter on a championship team. He's definitely not good enough to be a top 2 guy, and could only be a top 3 guy on a team with an exceptional top 2, but he's exactly what you want from a 4th starter if you have title aspirations. Losing a player like that is a big deal. He's not replaceable. Odds are against either Tatum or Brown ever being as good as he is. Cleveland is much better because they added him.

Tl;dr Crowder is really good and it's not just RPM that thinks so.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Crowder's value comes from a combination of being a top-50 player in the league and being really cheap. It's not just the latter.

I still think those who consider Crowder to be "just a role player" have it wrong and the consensus of both statistics and the NBA community agrees. He ranked 51st last year in BPM for players with over 1500 minutes. He ranked 20th in RPM. ESPN's NBARank has him rated 38th. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank3150/nbarank-players-31-50. SI ranks him 44th. https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/12/top-100-nba-players-2018-carmelo-anthony-demar-derozan-joel-embiid

There may be some who will respond that a lower end of top 50 player is a role player in the NBA. That's not unreasonable. Comparable players are guys like Otto Porter and Andre Igoudala, neither of whom is someone you build a team around. But, if you do that, you need to distinguish between role players who are good enough to be key starters on a championship level team (Crowder is in this category), roleplayers who are rotation players on a championship caliber team, and roleplayers who are rotation players on playoff-caliber teams. Basically, it's too big a category.

Crowder is good enough to be a starter on a championship team. He's definitely not good enough to be a top 2 guy, and could only be a top 3 guy on a team with an exceptional top 2, but he's exactly what you want from a 4th starter if you have title aspirations. Losing a player like that is a big deal. He's not replaceable. Odds are against either Tatum or Brown ever being as good as he is. Cleveland is much better because they added him.

Tl;dr Crowder is really good and it's not just RPM that thinks so.
Great post. I really think NBA player evaluation suffers because some of the elite players are so exceptional in their abilities and the delta between them and the players the next few tiers down can be pretty large. The exceptions are players who have very good offensive skills like Irving who tend to be overrated by some fans because of his transcendent dribbling and finishing.

And to be clear, I am not equating Irving to Crowder. Irving is clearly the superior player but, once again, wings are the coin of the realm in today's NBA. Jae Crowder is a very good, albeit not elite, level wing.
 

JCizzle

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He seems like a ridiculously awesome and mature guy, but with a killer instinct. He reminds me a lot of Brad Stevens, actually.
He hates LeBron and I love it

Paraphrasing:
Did you talk to LeBron before you asked for a trade?

No, why would i...
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Well did they dump him for a second round pick? Curious. Or was he part of a package for a superstar?

My point was there wasn't a rush to dump him for Hermangomez or a second rounder. He has value, but is largely overrated and was clearly redundant on this roster w GH, Tatum and Jaylen.

To toss him into a Kyrie package? No brainer.
That's fair enough, but you do understand how that's confusing given previous statements, right? It's one thing to argue that Crowder's value's higher than Hernangomez, but to go from calling him a "valuable wing" to stating that he "stretches the definition of what an asset is" feels inconsistent to me.

If Crowder's so valuable that getting a guy on a rookie deal who just put up solid per 36 numbers is laughable, than Crowder is an asset that has value. That doesn't mean Ainge shouldn't have included him in a Kyrie deal, but I also think it's a pretty drastic about face to suddenly write him off as salary filler.
 

Statman

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Largely I'm just reacting to the way many people here have changed their views on Irving, the value of the Nets pick, etc. since the trade. Opinions can and should be able to change, I just think there tends to be a bit too much Danny Can Do No Wrong in here. And that's less because Ainge hasn't earned it, or that I have any particularly glaring critiques of him, and more because I think it makes this place far less interesting.
I bash Ainge a ton and I freely admit that I didn't like the trade when I first heard about its components.

However, after learning that IT may miss more time than initially expected and coming to the realization that Ainge basically replaced the Nets pick with the LAL/SAC pick in next year's draft, I am definitely on board with the trade. Irving, warts and all, is a legit NBA star and you don't get many opportunities to trade for one, though I still question why we didn't put some of those sames assets in play for Butler, George or Cousins.
 

FredCDobbs

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As our favorite guy Draymond said the league is impressed that Kyrie asked for and seems totally comfortable with the additional pressure this move creates. I think a lot of people feel themselves coming around on the trade just by getting excited about how great Kyrie can be here. So they seem to be then trying to talk down the price we paid, which i guess is natural but I don't want to do. Crowder was great, and the Brooklyn pick is a lot more valuable to me than the Lakers pick, which is scary because it's going to hurt bad if it's 1 or 2 and we watch Doncic become a superstar somewhere else. I'll predict Kyrie will improve his efficiency and be a top ten mvp guy next year.

Also remember that Danny said about a month ago that he did previously offer the Nets pick in a deal that didn't happen (I'll guess Butler), and with George there is just too much chatter that he's determined to end up in LA, and Ainge wanted no part of Cousins because he plays like such a spoiled asshole at times.
 

djbayko

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Kyrie on First Take:


and


and

He can package the Lebron thing any way he wants. Of course he's free to pursue what's in his own best interest. But it's not like pursuing ones own interests and informing teammates of a decision are mutually exclusive things.

It's clear he didn't tell Lebron because they don't get along. And at least some small part of his decision (if not all of it) is due to him not wanting to be left in the dust when Lebron also selfishly leaves town.
 
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sox311

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That's what she said.
Has anyone posted the video from Billy Madison where he says "everyone in this room is now dumber for hearing it."

I hope he doesn't talk to his friends, teammates and Brad that same way. I would just look at him and nod my head in a conversation.
 
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djbayko

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Has anyone posted the video from Billy Madison where he says "everyone in this room is now dumber for hearing it."

I hope he doesn't talk to his friends, teammates and Brad that same way. I would just look at him and not my head in a conversation.
Yeah, people keep calling him a great speaker but all I hear is empty gobbledegook. If he's able to pull it off, then fine...I guess.
 

ugmo33

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His answers sounds reeealllyyy coached and rehearsed. He comes across as someone very concerned about his image and his brand.

Alos, it seems like most everyone is leaving Zizic out of the discussion in this thread. I get the trade in general, and I get that the lack of protections on the Nets pick was because of IT's injury, but why did he have to throw in another 1st round pick? Especially since they could use some depth at C?
 

DGreenwood

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His answers sounds reeealllyyy coached and rehearsed. He comes across as someone very concerned about his image and his brand.

Alos, it seems like most everyone is leaving Zizic out of the discussion in this thread. I get the trade in general, and I get that the lack of protections on the Nets pick was because of IT's injury, but why did he have to throw in another 1st round pick? Especially since they could use some depth at C?
To make the salaries work?
 

HomeRunBaker

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To make the salaries work?
....,and to get the deal closed from a comp return standpoint? Assuming that Isaiah is finished (which I pretty much believe and what I believe both sides believe) sending over Jae Crowder and the Nets pick for Kyrie probably doesn't bring enough return to Cleveland for them to do the deal with their primary rival in the Easf for the next decade.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yeah, people keep calling him a great speaker but all I hear is empty gobbledegook. If he's able to pull it off, then fine...I guess.
I only saw the last segment, not listed above, during which he was fine. He comes across as a pretty big weirdo in the others. I can see him getting isolated in a locker room.
 

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I bash Ainge a ton and I freely admit that I didn't like the trade when I first heard about its components.

However, after learning that IT may miss more time than initially expected and coming to the realization that Ainge basically replaced the Nets pick with the LAL/SAC pick in next year's draft, I am definitely on board with the trade. Irving, warts and all, is a legit NBA star and you don't get many opportunities to trade for one, though I still question why we didn't put some of those sames assets in play for Butler, George or Cousins.
Order of operations. Trading for any of those guys would've precluded signing Hayward. So unless you'd rather have one of those guys than Kyrie + Hayward (the C's would've been over the cap the next few years regardless, so it's not like a second piece could be added later without trading additional assets), then Danny made the right move.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Order of operations. Trading for any of those guys would've precluded signing Hayward. So unless you'd rather have one of those guys than Kyrie + Hayward (the C's would've been over the cap the next few years regardless, so it's not like a second piece could be added later without trading additional assets), then Danny made the right move.
The Larkin signing also confirms that Ainge was committed to doing all he could to get a deal done. I've pointed this out before but every piece Ainge moved to Cleveland was protected by an earlier acquisition. Zizic (Baynes), Crowder (Hayward), Nets pick (LA/Sac pick)........and also Larkin in the case where either we don't acquire Kyrie (knowing Isaiah is finished) or have to include Rozier in the trade to Cleveland.

The entire offseason was one big order of operation and Danny was well prepared for these opportunities to land a star. The Larkin signing fit right into the game plan.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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Has anyone posted the video from Billy Madison where he says "everyone in this room is now dumber for hearing it."

I hope he doesn't talk to his friends, teammates and Brad that same way. I would just look at him and nod my head in a conversation.
Yeah, people keep calling him a great speaker but all I hear is empty gobbledegook. If he's able to pull it off, then fine...I guess.
His answers sounds reeealllyyy coached and rehearsed. He comes across as someone very concerned about his image and his brand.
You guys must be really fun at parties.
 

reggiecleveland

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There is really nothing to read int the interview. There is no way to discuss why he did not speak to Lebron, without mentioning he was unsure Lebron was going to be round, or be negative.

I don't care about his interviews. Sean Casey was a lot better in interview than Ted Williams. Schilling, while player, often came across as a thoughtful, articulate team mate.
 

snowmanny

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Why tell LeBron first? So James can call a meeting with his people to calculate how to manipulate and leak the story to LeBron's benefit?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Those clips make me almost immediately love a guy I've never really paid attention to all that much outside 'flat earth' and his big games, that plays for my team's current rival and went to fucking Duke. I'm really not sure how one watches those and doesn't come away being stoked about him. Whether he was being diplomatic or throwing an underhanded 'fuck you' at Lebron the kid's got balls on him. And I like it.
 

lovegtm

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Man, reading between the lines in that interview, playing in Cleveland the last couple years must have really sucked more than it seemed from the outside.

He couldn't say it directly, but he pretty clearly wanted nothing to do with any part of the Cavs' organization anymore.
 

moly99

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He couldn't say it directly, but he pretty clearly wanted nothing to do with any part of the Cavs' organization anymore.
This heartless and callous inference can only serve as the antidote to the so-called "curse" on Cleveland, Ohio.

Also, I really wish we could post in Comic Sans.
 

DrewDawg

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https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/9/18/16329528/kyrie-irving-lebron-james-first-take

Safe to say Kyrie didn’t want to #embracedebate or even posit some facetious claim about he and LeBron are “great,” how they both understand “it’s a business” and that the two will continue to stay in contact. Nope. It was all a weirdly honest, yet not elaborative way of addressing the biggest story in the NBA. What in the world happened between the NBA Finals and now that we don’t know about?
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I don't really know how to feel after watching those. The whole "reality based" and "woke" stuff kind of weirds me out, but I love how he is so flippant towards LeBron. I can't tell if he's a bit of a whackjob or if he's just trolling.
 

mikeot

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“Honestly, Stephen A., I didn’t hear anything that was reality-based in all of that,” Irving said. “I didn’t hear one thing. I heard noise, I heard distraction, and then there was one important thing that I think that you failed to realize: that the Boston Celtics have existed without myself prior to me getting traded there.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/09/18/kyrie-irving-really-wasnt-buying-what-espns-first-take-was-selling/?utm_term=.50842d3dcb82&wpisrc=nl_sports&wpmm=1
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Also remember that Danny said about a month ago that he did previously offer the Nets pick in a deal that didn't happen (I'll guess Butler), and with George there is just too much chatter that he's determined to end up in LA, and Ainge wanted no part of Cousins because he plays like such a spoiled asshole at times.
It probably wasn't Butler because there were reports that DA was concerned how Bulter and Hayward would fit. http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/30/report-celtics-had-concerns-how-jimmy-butler-gordon-hayward-would-mesh/
 

DrewDawg

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I don't really know how to feel after watching those. The whole "reality based" and "woke" stuff kind of weirds me out, but I love how he is so flippant towards LeBron. I can't tell if he's a bit of a whackjob or if he's just trolling.
Either way, it's clear that ESPN really doesn't know how to take him. And I think part of that proves the point that ESPN was so LBJ-centric (with good reason) that they never really asked Kyrie these types of questions.

So, whether he's trolling ESPN or just confusing them, that, added to the clear distaste for LBJ makes me excited.

 

SoxinSeattle

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Here is all we need to take away from that interview:

“I’m ecstatic,” Irving said. “I’m just looking forward to playing my position. I’m looking forward to becoming something that I’ve always envisioned myself being — and that’s being a complete point guard on a great team. I want to be able to come off pick-and-rolls and be able to dissect the defense, and be able to have guys that — this is not a knock on anybody that I was playing with, but my role was completely different (in Cleveland).”

When asked how he’ll be different in Boston, Irving replied, “Actually playing point guard, which is very, very much exciting. Getting that thing on the break and allowing Gordon (Hayward) to have the space around him as well, and allowing Al Horford to make plays as a big, and having an offense that’s not necessarily dictated just on me isolating. So I’m excited about that.”

:banana: :beatit:
 

ragnarok725

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I don't really know how to feel after watching those. The whole "reality based" and "woke" stuff kind of weirds me out, but I love how he is so flippant towards LeBron. I can't tell if he's a bit of a whackjob or if he's just trolling.
I think he's a bit of a whackjob. "I don't really have an ego" is a phrase only uttered by people with very little insight. Everyone has an ego. And the people that actually have smaller egos certainly aren't in a rush to tell people how small it is.

This is a guy who genuinely believes the Earth is flat. He may have said a bunch of things in a cool, calm, and collected manner. He might have said the right things from a basketball perspective. But this guy is not smart, nor does he seem to have much emotional intelligence. That doesn't matter much when it comes to basketball, but I didn't come away from that interview impressed with the person.
 

soxfan121

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I think he's a bit of a whackjob. "I don't really have an ego" is a phrase only uttered by people with very little insight. Everyone has an ego. And the people that actually have smaller egos certainly aren't in a rush to tell people how small it is.

This is a guy who genuinely believes the Earth is flat. He may have said a bunch of things in a cool, calm, and collected manner. He might have said the right things from a basketball perspective. But this guy is not smart, nor does he seem to have much emotional intelligence. That doesn't matter much when it comes to basketball, but I didn't come away from that interview impressed with the person.
Really? I think genuinely is exact wrong word choice to describe his flat-earth take. Nothing about it seemed genuine to me.

I am highly entertained. He is definitely one of those (Duke) people who thinks he is WAY, WAY smarter than he is, and in intent on proving it with big words, philosophical musings, and nonsensical babblings. And he seems to think that the media, and social media, is a thing to be fucked with and that anyone who takes it seriously is a boob. (Note: If I'm right, the best laugh Kyrie has had recently is at LeBron's Instagram "Look at me working out with Kevin Love!" post sent after Kyrie's ESPN interviewed aired.) Neither of those things - thinking he's the smartest guy in the room, or thinking the media is a waste of his time - is a real problem.

Ultimately, as long as he's crazy good on the floor, anything genuinely crazy off it is just window dressing. (Unless he goes Lawrence Timmons or something.)
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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The genuinely crazy off-the-floor stuff that should concern people has nothing to do with the earth being flat, and everything to do with the fact that he apparently went several days without speaking to any of his teammates in the middle of the playoffs. And those weren't off days, they were practice days between the first and second round. He basically just gave his entire team the silent treatment during the playoffs.

Add to that the fact that the consensus is that Kyrie wants a team of his own, yet is the Celtics second best player, and I think there are definitely some chemistry concerns.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I dunno, Kyrie seems super beloved and respected by his Team USA teammates and by other marquee players of his generation (Durant, Lillard, Draymond, Harrison Barnes, e.g.)

I suspect the issues in CLE had much more to do with the towering, omnipresent, air-sucking, hierarchical, "sonning" presence of LeBron (and maybe secondarily with the general awfulness of Dan Gilbert) than with any inherent personality issues with Kyrie. His low-key co-stars in Boston seem much more akin to Kyrie, both in terms of temperament and age/generation.

On a more tinfoil hat note: I also think some of his comments about wanting to play in a more team-oriented, egalitarian, ball-movement-reliant system carry strong echoes of his buddy Draymond whispering stuff in his ear while they were chilling in Rio. (From Draymond's perspective, that would have the side benefit of sowing discord on the Cavs, in addition to being true).
 

djbayko

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I dunno, Kyrie seems super beloved and respected by his Team USA teammates and by other marquee players of his generation (Durant, Lillard, Draymond, Harrison Barnes, e.g.)

I suspect the issues in CLE had much more to do with the towering, omnipresent, air-sucking, hierarchical, "sonning" presence of LeBron (and maybe secondarily with the general awfulness of Dan Gilbert) than with any inherent personality issues with Kyrie. His low-key co-stars in Boston seem much more akin to Kyrie, both in terms of temperament and age/generation.

On a more tinfoil hat note: I also think some of his comments about wanting to play in a more team-oriented, egalitarian, ball-movement-reliant system carry strong echoes of his buddy Draymond whispering stuff in his ear while they were chilling in Rio. (From Draymond's perspective, that would have the side benefit of sowing discord on the Cavs, in addition to being true).
It is quite possible that Kyrie's chemistry issues were mostly a result of being with Lebron. It is also quite possible that they were largely due to an immature Kyrie. Whatever the case, let's hope that he has learned from mistakes and won't let things get to that point again. It has to really suck not having anyone in the locker room you feel you can talk to. Sometimes people just need to get out of a shitty situation and given themselves a fresh start...a do over.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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I dunno, Kyrie seems super beloved and respected by his Team USA teammates and by other marquee players of his generation (Durant, Lillard, Draymond, Harrison Barnes, e.g.)

I suspect the issues in CLE had much more to do with the towering, omnipresent, air-sucking, hierarchical, "sonning" presence of LeBron (and maybe secondarily with the general awfulness of Dan Gilbert) than with any inherent personality issues with Kyrie. His low-key co-stars in Boston seem much more akin to Kyrie, both in terms of temperament and age/generation.

On a more tinfoil hat note: I also think some of his comments about wanting to play in a more team-oriented, egalitarian, ball-movement-reliant system carry strong echoes of his buddy Draymond whispering stuff in his ear while they were chilling in Rio. (From Draymond's perspective, that would have the side benefit of sowing discord on the Cavs, in addition to being true).
I'm thoroughly impressed that you've found a way to make this topic of conversation about the Warriors style of play.

And I'm not sure Team USA's the same environment as an 82 game season followed by a grueling playoff series. In Rio, Team USA players lived on a luxury cruise ship and played cards, drank and played in like half of a challenging basketball game. How somebody acts in that setting seems far less relevant to what sort of NBA teammate they are than, you know, how they've acted as an actual NBA teammate in the past.

As for LeBron, I know it's popular to try and pin Kyrie's behavior on him, but over the course of LeBron's career there are several players who have happily followed LeBron to different teams, and a others who have tried to or are trying to. Maybe it's oppressive. Maybe it's difficult. But Kyrie seems to have handled it far worse than most.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think part of Kyrie's calculus, whether he has said it or not, was that this was very likely his last year with Lebron had he stayed in Cleveland.
 

ragnarok725

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Really? I think genuinely is exact wrong word choice to describe his flat-earth take. Nothing about it seemed genuine to me.

I am highly entertained. He is definitely one of those (Duke) people who thinks he is WAY, WAY smarter than he is, and in intent on proving it with big words, philosophical musings, and nonsensical babblings. And he seems to think that the media, and social media, is a thing to be fucked with and that anyone who takes it seriously is a boob. (Note: If I'm right, the best laugh Kyrie has had recently is at LeBron's Instagram "Look at me working out with Kevin Love!" post sent after Kyrie's ESPN interviewed aired.) Neither of those things - thinking he's the smartest guy in the room, or thinking the media is a waste of his time - is a real problem.

Ultimately, as long as he's crazy good on the floor, anything genuinely crazy off it is just window dressing. (Unless he goes Lawrence Timmons or something.)
The Flat Earth stuff seems super genuine to me. The fake part was the back-pedaling into a "this is a meta commentary" stuff that the media did on his behalf. He's a guy who had a half-assed, unexamined opinion and didn't anticipate the reaction when shared it. His ego was too big to take it back so he tried to make it about the reaction instead of his stupidity. It could just as easily have been Obama birtherism, anti-vaxxing, the moon landing conspiracy, 9/11 truthing, or just about any other ridiculous conspiracy theory that real humans in the real world actually believe.

I don't think there's any greater plan going on in Kyrie Irving's head, calculating reactions and meticulously choosing how he presents himself. He's just saying things. It's the same in this interview. I agree he thinks he's smarter than he is, but I don't think he's intentionally messing with anyone. He's fumbling along from one thing to the next.

And yes, none of this matters for Kyrie Irving the basketball player or the Boston Celtics.
 
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Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
5,753
NYC
I'm thoroughly impressed that you've found a way to make this topic of conversation about the Warriors style of play.
Haha, well they are the current center of the hoops universe, an unavoidable fact for players as well as pundits and fans. But yeah, I admit that my Draymond theory is Warrior-centric and probably tinfoil. More broadly, I guess I'm talking about the humble team-ball championed by Popovich, Kerr and Brad Stevens (among others) as opposed to the star-centric attitude and style of play of King "we're top heavy AF" James.

As for LeBron, I know it's popular to try and pin Kyrie's behavior on him, but over the course of LeBron's career there are several players who have happily followed LeBron to different teams, and a others who have tried to or are trying to. Maybe it's oppressive. Maybe it's difficult. But Kyrie seems to have handled it far worse than most.
Yeah, that's probably fair. Didn't mean to paint the dynamic as LeBron bad v. Kyrie good; I'm sure it's far more complex that that. Just saying that I don't think there's any reason to expect a replay of the dysfunctional dynamic in Cleveland given the totally different makeup and character of the Stevens-Hayward-Horford Celtics.
 
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InstaFace

MDLzera
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
9,505
I wish for the ability to remote grundle punch everyone who aches to discuss the flat earth bullshit.
There are SoSHers here whose handles evoke Carl Everett's "never were dinosaurs" comment. Athletes being dumb is as old as athletics, and we watch anyway, so we might as well take what entertainment we can from it.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
3,145
around the way
There are SoSHers here whose handles evoke Carl Everett's "never were dinosaurs" comment. Athletes being dumb is as old as athletics, and we watch anyway, so we might as well take what entertainment we can from it.
I'm all for the entertainment aspect of such things. But it's not being thrown out there generally for entertainment value. It's being thrown out there by people who don't like Irving and/or the trade. If it's meant to shame him for an anti-intellectual/anti-science position, I'd prefer that it traveled to V&N. Or make it funny.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 20, 2013
794
The Flat Earth stuff seems super genuine to me. The fake part was the back-pedaling into a "this is a meta commentary" stuff that the media did on his behalf. He's a guy who had a half-assed, unexamined opinion and didn't anticipate the reaction when shared it. His ego was too big to take it back so he tried to make it about the reaction instead of his stupidity. It could just as easily have been Obama birtherism, anti-vaxxing, the moon landing conspiracy, 9/11 truthing, or just about any other ridiculous conspiracy theory that real humans in the real world actually believe.

I don't think there's any greater plan going on in Kyrie Irving's head, calculating reactions and meticulously choosing how he presents himself. He's just saying things. It's the same in this interview. I agree he thinks he's smarter than he is, but I don't think he's intentionally messing with anyone. He's fumbling along from one thing to the next.

And yes, none of this matters for Kyrie Irving the basketball player or the Boston Celtics.
Holy shit. Are you like, ok, dude?

The flat-earth stuff - he's trolling you, and everybody else. "Super genuine?" Are you serious? He's fucking with you, man. I don't think he's the one fumbling along from one thing to the next. Might want to take a look in the mirror.

So you don't like the trade, I'm guessing?
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
9,505
I'm all for the entertainment aspect of such things. But it's not being thrown out there generally for entertainment value. It's being thrown out there by people who don't like Irving and/or the trade.

If it's meant to shame him for an anti-intellectual/anti-science position, I'd prefer that it traveled to V&N. Or make it funny.
Can you show me a post by someone who is making fun of his flat-earth comments by way of denigrating him, his potential value to the team, or the trade?

(on the latter part, I agree completely)
 
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