Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash

hbk72777

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No, it isn't. @luckysox was responding to another poster who was going overboard with the hagiography/what a wonderful human being he was. It was a completely legitimate perspective for her to contribute. And she was attacked by a couple of morons for it. Nobody is celebrating this, or saying it isn't a tragedy. Doubly so if his children were involved. But we're not at his funeral, we're on message board talking about the death of a public figure, that I don't think anyone here knew personally, with a complicated legacy. Nothing about it was out of bounds.

Then give us a list of your heroes so we can vet them
 

CR67dream

blue devils forevah!
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However you feel about Kobe, it's fine to post about it here. What is not fine is going after another poster for expressing those feelings. If you are not currently able to handle opposing views without getting personal, I'd strongly suggest stepping aside now.

Any personal attacks that occur here from this point onward will not be met with kindly, regardless of where one stands on the life and death of Kobe Bryant.
 

hbk72777

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Jul 19, 2005
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What do you call someone who rapes someone? He's a rapist. Sorry that makes you uncomfortable. I'm sure that girl was pretty uncomfortable too.

She took a financial settlement.

No respect for her. Just like the Weinstein women.
 

The Big Red Kahuna

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How long until we can make a “can’t believe Magic out-lived him” comment?

Asking for a friend.
 

Murderer's Crow

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This is a well thought out post and I appreciate that it likely took some restraint not to just name call, as you are clearly passionate about this specific situation. I am too, just from the opposite viewpoint. We obviously have differing opinions on what may or may not be forgivable, and what sins a person can "make up for" later in life. But Crow, and I say this as gently as I can here, I don't think you understand how bad rape is if your first inclination is to protect Kobe Bryant from being called a rapist on an internet forum on the day he dies. I mean, he's dead. And he doesn't know you. And I would say Kobe Bryant did just fine in the aftermath of the whole thing. So, what are you protecting? And why is it unfair of me to point out his misdeeds? And please explain why it's irresponsible. Because that one, I really do not get. If you want to forgive, go ahead, but I think it's irresponsible to forget, not the other way around.
What's my response supposed to be here when you're telling me I don't understand how bad rape is? You're not saying that gently, you're saying something about my character which completely dismisses the point I made only 10 minutes ago about rehabilitation and forgiveness. You are within your right to call him a rapist, to come in here on the day and remind people about it. Separate me from those in this thread who think you're wrong for not seeing him as anything but a rapist. My commentary is based around the grave stomping while trying to explain to people who are sad that they shouldn't be sad. My funeral analogy was apt in that some people feel bad about this loss and it's rude to rub shit in their face.

The irresponsible aspect of your approach was proven in your first couple sentences of your response. You're just coming here to tell people to care more about rape. And if we don't care about it exactly the way you do, we must not care about it. I'm not protecting Kobe, I'm protecting anyone really. I'm here to defend myself in a thread where an athlete died and some people tried to make it a point that nobody should really be mourning this guy. This is my response to that.
 

TSC

SoSH's Doug Neidermeyer
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Oct 25, 2007
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Between here and everywhere.
When Rev quit the board, he sent me (and others) a missive on why it was he was quitting.

It was thoughtful, and smart - and very Rev.

One of the things that stuck out to me immediately on my first pass was the following.

“Grown-ups need to be able to have conversations that are uncomfortable, and people who are intolerant of mental discomfort need to be told to grown up.”

So let me take advice from one of the few people I’ve admired on this board and say: Some of you need to grow the fuck up.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
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Nov 4, 2007
62,312
She took a financial settlement.

No respect for her. Just like the Weinstein women.
I can’t tell if this post is serious. She was a teenage girl who was raped, tried to have her moment in court, and was stymied because Kobe’s lawyer constantly said her name out loud in open court in front of the press in order to intimidate her.

She then received death threats and was bullied, so she did the best she could and tried to get on with her life.

Are we really letting rape victims be blamed here?

It sucks for Kobe’s wife and kids that he and his daughter died.

It sucks for society in general that he was allowed to keep playing and getting endorsement deals after raping a teenager. When Big Ben dies, I will feel the exact same way.

And this is a site that bets on people dying. I don’t get the self-righteousness about the need for decorum.
 

fletcherpost

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When Rev quit the board, he sent me (and others) a missive on why it was he was quitting.

It was thoughtful, and smart - and very Rev.

One of the things that stuck out to me immediately on my first pass was the following.

“Grown-ups need to be able to have conversations that are uncomfortable, and people who are intolerant of mental discomfort need to be told to grown up.”

So let me take advice from one of the few people I’ve admired on this board and say: Some of you need to grow the fuck up.
Yeah. Rev's Missive was 100% on point and that line you quoted is gold.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
41,946
When Rev quit the board, he sent me (and others) a missive on why it was he was quitting.

It was thoughtful, and smart - and very Rev.

One of the things that stuck out to me immediately on my first pass was the following.

“Grown-ups need to be able to have conversations that are uncomfortable, and people who are intolerant of mental discomfort need to be told to grown up.”

So let me take advice from one of the few people I’ve admired on this board and say: Some of you need to grow the fuck up.
Wait, Rev quit the board?

My entire day is ruined.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
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Congrats for being the second person to try and tell me how I don't understand rape. Fuck this place. You're all children.
I literally did just the opposite. You aren't the one who called rape a misdeed or acting as if it's just another crime. I made it a point to exclude you for a reason but ok.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
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Dec 22, 2002
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I'm editing my post to give you the benefit of the doubt. But that's not how I took your post. I'll move on and apologize. Sorry there.
My bad. I'm more or less talking to the people who are telling me I can't call Kobe Bryant a rapist. That is not you.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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I suspect we're going to see this same mixed temperature response when other celebrities with rape allegation baggage die in the future. The era of sitting by quietly while others write hagiographies of these folks is probably over.
 

Marciano490

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Nov 4, 2007
62,312
You know what, calling Kobe a rapist is important. It’s a message to rape and abuse survivors that they matter, even if their assailant was famous. It’s a reminder to men that they can’t bury their misdeeds in the past.

Imagine how the world looks to a rape victim. A rapist is President. Another rapist was President 20 years ago. A guy who raped a teen was the face of a major sports league, won an Oscar and is being mourned worldwide and defended here because he could shoot a basketball.

All this stuff just reinforces to perpetrator and survivor alike that society just doesn’t care about rape.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I can’t tell if this post is serious. She was a teenage girl who was raped, tried to have her moment in court, and was stymied because Kobe’s lawyer constantly said her name out loud in open court in front of the press in order to intimidate her.

She then received death threats and was bullied, so she did the best she could and tried to get on with her life.

Are we really letting rape victims be blamed here?

It sucks for Kobe’s wife and kids that he and his daughter died.

It sucks for society in general that he was allowed to keep playing and getting endorsement deals after raping a teenager. When Big Ben dies, I will feel the exact same way.

And this is a site that bets on people dying. I don’t get the self-righteousness about the need for decorum.
Spot on (and I reported the post in question).

I guess I also just don’t get mourning the death of someone I don’t know because he/she was famous. its shocking (and sad for his family) but unfortunately bad shit happens to people who aren’t awesome at shooting a basketball every single day and nobody outside of family members notice. My wife, who lived in LA and attended a ton of Laker games during Kobe’s prime, is for some reason upset about this. Meanwhile we both used to love Louis CK and now she can’t stand the site of him. People are really weird about this shit.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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Feb 8, 2009
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Timeout poster's post
Re: hbk72777's pre-time out post:

This is why this thread is right to make space to acknowledge the athlete and the rapist. Because what might prompt someone to reflexively post this is due in part to rape culture, and it thrives when erased from public discourse
 

Murderer's Crow

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You know what, calling Kobe a rapist is important. It’s a message to rape and abuse survivors that they matter, even if their assailant was famous. It’s a reminder to men that they can’t bury their misdeeds in the past.

Imagine how the world looks to a rape victim. A rapist is President. Another rapist was President 20 years ago. A guy who raped a teen was the face of a major sports league, won an Oscar and is being mourned worldwide and defended here because he could shoot a basketball.

All this stuff just reinforces to perpetrator and survivor alike that society just doesn’t care about rape.
And I think you're right and what you're saying is powerful. I can't argue with a single thing here so if for the sake of social progression, we (I) have to take a hard stance here and in all cases, I'm on board. But.....we aren't taught not to forgive, right? Are we allowed to look at the whole picture beyond the single action? I'm not asking rhetorical questions, I'm asking them because what happens when you have cognitive dissonance here? I both believe that rape is as disgraceful a thing as a person could do and that all people can be rehabilitated and forgiven if they deserve it. So, you tell me, where should I fall here? I mean, my brain doesn't dictate my emotions. I'm sad that Kobe is dead. I'm sad that a father and his daughter leave behind a family who loved them.
 

luckysox

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Apr 21, 2009
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What's my response supposed to be here when you're telling me I don't understand how bad rape is? You're not saying that gently, you're saying something about my character which completely dismisses the point I made only 10 minutes ago about rehabilitation and forgiveness. You are within your right to call him a rapist, to come in here on the day and remind people about it. Separate me from those in this thread who think you're wrong for not seeing him as anything but a rapist. My commentary is based around the grave stomping while trying to explain to people who are sad that they shouldn't be sad. My funeral analogy was apt in that some people feel bad about this loss and it's rude to rub shit in their face.

The irresponsible aspect of your approach was proven in your first couple sentences of your response. You're just coming here to tell people to care more about rape. And if we don't care about it exactly the way you do, we must not care about it. I'm not protecting Kobe, I'm protecting anyone really. I'm here to defend myself in a thread where an athlete died and some people tried to make it a point that nobody should really be mourning this guy. This is my response to that.
You lost me at grave stomping. And rubbing shit in your face. Because I'm not doing that. I'm being as kind as I can possibly be to you and to others who have shown some sense of decency while disagreeing with me. I simply do not think you are giving enough weight to how much damage rape does to a human being, or how much damage the kind of shit that was done to Kobe's victim does to other women who have been raped and need to decide whether or not to pursue justice. That means I don't think you understand how bad rape is. If that feels like grave stomping and face-rubbing, I don't know what to tell you. I think of it more as me pointing out that maybe you need to think about it longer, or differently, because it matters. I'm glad you feel you are an enlightened soul who can forgive and forget things, and maybe you are, but I think it's irresponsible to forget rape and to forget the way victims are treated when they attempt to bring their rapists to justice. And Crow, dammit, I'm not touching your character with saying you don't understand how bad rape is; I sure as hell would be questioning it, though, if you don't CARE how bad it is.
 

fletcherpost

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https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-bryants-disturbing-rape-case-the-dna-evidence-the-accusers-story-and-the-half-confession
The above article has Kobe's Statement/Apology that was read out in court by his attourney. And it has quotes from Kobe's statements made to the police. It also has quotes from his accuser, of the events of that night. There's also graphic details of the physical harm/damage done to the accuser,

Serious Trigger Warning cos it's not an easy read. In fact it's as tough a read as it gets. But there's worse things than being triggered.

I hadn't thought about Kobe in a while. I'm not a big NBA fan, and i tend to root East Coast. But in reading the article again, particularly the quotes of accuser and accused...well let's just say i had to turn off my news feed (ABC news live), cos they're making him out to be something Godlike. I guess if you just count his sporting career, sure, maybe, dish out the superlatives.

But he damaged someone for life and bought his wife a diamond ring.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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Feb 19, 2015
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And I think you're right and what you're saying is powerful. I can't argue with a single thing here so if for the sake of social progression, we (I) have to take a hard stance here and in all cases, I'm on board. But.....we aren't taught not to forgive, right? Are we allowed to look at the whole picture beyond the single action? I'm not asking rhetorical questions, I'm asking them because what happens when you have cognitive dissonance here? I both believe that rape is as disgraceful a thing as a person could do and that all people can be rehabilitated and forgiven if they deserve it. So, you tell me, where should I fall here? I mean, my brain doesn't dictate my emotions. I'm sad that Kobe is dead. I'm sad that a father and his daughter leave behind a family who loved them.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to make your case for forgiveness and to mourn and be sad and post about it. It's also perfectly reasonable for others to make their case about the darker things he did in his life.
 

Hoya81

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Feb 3, 2010
8,457
You know what, calling Kobe a rapist is important. It’s a message to rape and abuse survivors that they matter, even if their assailant was famous. It’s a reminder to men that they can’t bury their misdeeds in the past.

Imagine how the world looks to a rape victim. A rapist is President. Another rapist was President 20 years ago. A guy who raped a teen was the face of a major sports league, won an Oscar and is being mourned worldwide and defended here because he could shoot a basketball.

All this stuff just reinforces to perpetrator and survivor alike that society just doesn’t care about rape.
I have to think the coverage would be different if his daughter hadn’t also been involved in the crash.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
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Nov 17, 2010
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You’re all the worst.

Or the best.

It’s hard for me to tell through the veil of entertainment that is this thread.
 

twibnotes

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Jul 16, 2005
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Spot on (and I reported the post in question).

I guess I also just don’t get mourning the death of someone I don’t know because he/she was famous. its shocking (and sad for his family) but unfortunately bad shit happens to people who aren’t awesome at shooting a basketball every single day and nobody outside of family members notice. My wife, who lived in LA and attended a ton of Laker games during Kobe’s prime, is for some reason upset about this. Meanwhile we both used to love Louis CK and now she can’t stand the site of him. People are really weird about this shit.
I think part of the arguing on this thread stems from the fact that people are mourning this in different ways, all of which seem fair.

Some are mourning the death of some part of their childhood or sports fandom.

Some are reminded how fragile life is bc these superstar athletes are supposed to be invincible.

Obviously, it’s also sad that a father and husband and daughter are dead, far too early.

And clearly someone who has been victimized by sexual assault can’t fathom how anyone can mourn the guy’s death.

Not sure why any of these views deserves an ad hominem attack.
 

The Social Chair

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Feb 17, 2010
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Spot on (and I reported the post in question).

I guess I also just don’t get mourning the death of someone I don’t know because he/she was famous. its shocking (and sad for his family) but unfortunately bad shit happens to people who aren’t awesome at shooting a basketball every single day and nobody outside of family members notice. My wife, who lived in LA and attended a ton of Laker games during Kobe’s prime, is for some reason upset about this. Meanwhile we both used to love Louis CK and now she can’t stand the site of him. People are really weird about this shit.
Celebrities dying make us examine our own mortality.

The cult of Kobe in LA was massive. Bigger than Ortiz and Brady in Boston. Sport fandom is an odd thing.

Kobe came on stage to show his animated short at a John Williams Hollywood Bowl show I attended in 2017. He was so joyful that night.

I remember thinking he would never be able to exist without basketball during his last few seasons but he gracefully moved on to the next chapter. That stuck with me.
 

Marciano490

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Nov 4, 2007
62,312
And I think you're right and what you're saying is powerful. I can't argue with a single thing here so if for the sake of social progression, we (I) have to take a hard stance here and in all cases, I'm on board. But.....we aren't taught not to forgive, right? Are we allowed to look at the whole picture beyond the single action? I'm not asking rhetorical questions, I'm asking them because what happens when you have cognitive dissonance here? I both believe that rape is as disgraceful a thing as a person could do and that all people can be rehabilitated and forgiven if they deserve it. So, you tell me, where should I fall here? I mean, my brain doesn't dictate my emotions. I'm sad that Kobe is dead. I'm sad that a father and his daughter leave behind a family who loved them.
I honestly don’t know. But it should be every much a part of his legacy and his championships. Having it be shushed down or left unsaid is part of why rape persists and goes underreported.
 

E5 Yaz

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Turned on Fox Sports Radio for a moment while in the car. The host said something to the tune of that Kobe was the type of man we'd all want our sons to be.

I turned off the radio.

LuckySox and Marciano are 100% correct about this.

A great basketball player died. So did an above the law figure who brutally assaulted a young woman and never paid a significant penalty for doing so.

That the second part will be lost in the media coverage over the next week or so would be a sad commentary on society, if so much of society hadn't already decided that it's just the first part that matters.