I'm not sure I understand your reply. Are you being sarcastic?
People make "best guesses" on incomplete or imperfect information all the time. We couldn't function without it.
Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash
- Thread starter glennhoffmania
- Start date
People make "best guesses" on incomplete or imperfect information all the time. We couldn't function without it.
I only have about 25 hours of Sikorsky time, in an SH-60S Knighthawk, the latest navalized version of the Blackhawk. The auto flight functions were not what you would see in a Fixed Wing Airliner or Business jet, but they do have the ability to hold attitude, altitude, heading and airspeed with automation. I can't speak to the S-76, but I would assume that similar functionality has to be in place to allow for single pilot operations like you reference above. I do not know if they have the ability to program a climb or decent or turns along a route like most auto pilots that you see in fixed wing aircraft can. I will say, now flying an Airbus 320 for a living, that I look back on the way we flew light attack helicopters and think that we did not use our automation near enough, especially at night or in bad weather. Most helicopter pilots are very adamant about wanting to "fly" their aircraft, rather than simply manage the automation.
Trying to answer your second question....On the last helicopter I flew regularly, the UH-1Y, we have an auto flight mode called "cruise hold" which would maintain all flight parameters and could not be "pushed through" by manipulating the controls, you had to deselect it first, then manipulate the controls. Cruise hold would also turn off if you lost power from one generator (which is tied to an engine) or received a primary (very serious) Warning indication associated with a major systems failure or issue. Helicopters are weird beasts relative to fixed wing aircraft in the sense that fixed wing airplanes generally keep doing what you told them to when you turn off the automation or let go of the controls. Helicopters tend to hold their previous attitude for a shorter amount of time and start something different if you aren't actually controlling them. So, I could certainly see a scenario where the (single) pilot was using an auto flight function to assist him while he was looking at the map to manage airspace and terrain and then had it kick off, either through an inadvertant switch actuation or some sort of emergency and that would make a recovery more challenging, especially in or around clouds that prevented you from having high situational awareness about the terrain or traffic.
They teach you in safety school that eyewitness accounts about aircraft mishaps are largely worthless. Where they do have value is in context. So, when the guy on the ground tells you that he saw the aircraft smoking and spinning with people leaning out the windows screaming through clear skies before it hit the ground, the only really valuable piece of information is that the aircraft was clear of clouds in a decent. It also gives an investigators a flight path angle they can build based on the locations where witnesses saw the aircraft relative to where they were standing. Of note, I imagine the NTSB guys are canvassing the neighborhoods around Calabasses asking for doorbell and security camera footage from homes and businesses. A recent crash or an Atlas 767 in Houston was captured on a school field house security camera video and that video helped confirm several things for the investigators. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a video of part of the terminal flight path for this aircraft.
(https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Video-shows-final-moments-of-doomed-Atlas-Air-13655569.php)
@barbed wire Bob answered this really well in post #1023. To address what to do when you punch in to the clouds unexpectedly, it is very relative to where you are. Many military IIMC procedures emphasized doing a 180 degree turn to go back the way you came with only slight altitude deviations to keep members of the flight from hitting each other. As an alternate procedure, for when turning around doesn't make sense (ie. target area egress) your IIMC procedure would have the aircraft break up in a fan pattern to ensure separation, but with only minor altitude deviations for deconfliction. In terms of climbing in this situation, the pilot doesn't know what is above them traffic wise, especially in the insanely crowded airspace around the Los Angeles area. Also, on the southwest bound heading that the aircraft was on after clearing Van Nuys airspace, they were getting very close to the 5000' shelf of LAX's airspace, so they had a limited amount of vertical space to work with. When you are airborne and attempting to transition from VFR (visual flight) to IFR (instrument flight) part of the implied contract with ATC is that you will remain VMC until ATC says your call sign, declares "radar contact" and gives you a clearance. If you go IMC and then call ATC asking for help, you are essentially declaring an emergency, and might even hear as ATC's response, "are you declaring an emergency? " followed by "are you VMC now?"
Last edited:
A couple of videos from nearby home cameras have emerged that appear to have audio of the helicopter's final moments. Not an expert, but I don't hear anything obviously unusual. To my ears it sounds like normal helicopter noise, then it stops (a soft thud can be heard in one). There is a pretty good discussion on pprune.org re: Kobe Crash. Seems to be driven by various pilots and others in the field and cuts through other online clutter.
I listened to that this morning and yeah, you could hear that edit as clear as day. Would love to hear what was washed out.
Adande did seem uncomfortable. He made a good point, in that it's not something you can just bring up and yada, yada. It needs to be discussed and not just glossed over. But then in the next breath he said that there's a time and a place for it to be discussed. And that just doesn't sit right. When, exactly, is the time and where is the place?
Thank you so much. As always your posts are extremely knowledgeable and helpful.
There have been numerous discussions detailing the physical evidence and Kobe’s admission. You don’t get to come in here and distort facts to fit whatever narrative you want to advance.
What you’re saying simply isn’t true, and wrapping it under the pretense of trying to be fair or open minded doesn’t make it so.
You’re arguing for a standard under which rape can only be proven by videotape or full confession and trafficking in sexist tropes about victims knowing what they were doing, or changing their minds midway and confusing the poor perpetrators.
Had lunch with three very intelligent friends today (hard science folks) who aren't big sports fans. One of them "oh yeah'd" when I mentioned the rape, one of them "knew he had something in his past" and the third had no idea he was anything but a saint.
I forwarded the Sarah Spain article to them
I forwarded the Sarah Spain article to them
There have been numerous discussions about this case... you don't say?
I didn't cite every specific piece of information related to the case, or dive into the nitty gritty, because I didn't think this was the forum for that. I did cite all (did I miss one?) of the categories of information - which includes all of the information and accounts I can find. So, while I appreciate the passion with which you stride in here puffing up your chest and flexing your internet righteousness - what you're saying, simply isn't true. I'm not making comprehensive statements about the nature of proving rape or anything like that. I'm talking about this specific case, this specific set of facts, involving this specific set of individuals. I told you my interpretation. You're free to disagree. At the time, 41% of the country did... although that amount shrunk as more evidence emerged.
It's hard to get into these tropes you're talking about without getting graphic, but I'd be careful going down that road. What tropes are you trafficking in? What sounds more likely... my guess as to what happened... or I suppose your opinion that a young black basketball star decided that the night before knee surgery (?) was a good time to rape a hotel worker? To me... that doesn't sound right, either.
This was his final statement:
"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter. "
Why did he lie to the police?
Why are you attacking Marciano instead of focusing on his points? Kind of a refuge of someone who is losing an argument.
Most importantly, do you really not see that you cannot take the position you are taking without stating that she was lying? There is no tightrope one can walk between the two versions in which one can absolve Kobe but not call her a liar. Kobe tried to walk it -- or, I guess, Kobe's lawyers tried to walk it in the statement they wrote for him -- but there is no path there. It does not exist.
So, don't dress this nonsense up in some I'm-just-weighing-the-evidence garb.
I feel that there is room on this board for people to offer interpretations of the evidence and what we know and trying to make an argument that there was no rape here. I'm going to need a lot of convincing and admit that I'm not going to be very open minded, but I think if posts are made respectfully people will not block you from posting and trying to make that argument. But own what you are saying and start with your heavy burden of establishing that she lied. And take on the point, not the poster, or you cannot be taken seriously.
Last edited:
You're saying that a young, married, black basketball star decided the night before knee surgery was a good time to have rough consensual sex with a stranger?
When we talk about complicated and tough topics like this we have to put a certain amount of effort into ensuring that we are discussing the topic in a logical and appropriate manner. I don't think you are doing that here and think you should voluntarily pull back for a bit.
Speaking as a mod, if you come back with more of this that doesn't meet our standards of appropriate and quality posting you'll get that time to pull back on a non voluntary basis.
Assuming you're arguing in good faith and are actually interested in the answers.
1. Preacher, who is one of the few or only people here who has studied and dealt with rape prosecutions in a professional capacity discussed how there was a bunch of corroborating evidence, including physical evidence, in this case. He also relayed a conversation with a SANE who expressed the same sentiments.
2. The physical evidence was discussed here repeatedly and a link to a Daily Beast article laying it out was also shared multiple times.
3. You absolutely made a statement about the nature of proving rape. You said "we'll never know because nobody else was in the room and we don't have consistent statements regarding this." The very clear implication is that rape can only be proven, or we can only ever know if it's occurred, if there was an eyewitness, or the rapist confesses. Right? What am I missing?
4. The tropes you're trafficking in are these - 1) why was she in his room if she didn't want to have sex (you can call that one the Tyson trope); 2) she probably initially wanted to have sex then changed her mind; 3) Kobe was unaware consent has been withdrawn. That last one is just more pernicious male fear about "oh how will I know if my partner really wants me, and what if they change their mind and I don't realize and suddenly I'm in jail for 20 years for rape."
Beyond the fact that Kobe felt the need to choke her during sex and she repeatedly said no, I feel like any time your partner is bleeding is probably a good time to check in and make sure everything's ok.
Finally, the knee injury is a canard. He admits they had sex (I mean, he also admits it wasn't consensual), so the idea he was too injured or too preoccupied with his pending surgery is baseless. I also believe there was something in the police report about him calling Vanessa before the woman came to the room and telling her he was going to bed early so she didn't get suspicious when he didn't answer calls or texts. Balky knee or not, he decided he was going to have sex with this woman, apparently whether she agreed to or repeatedly said no.
“or I suppose your opinion that a young black basketball star decided that the night before knee surgery (?) was a good time to rape a hotel worker? To me... that doesn't sound right, either.”
This is along the lines of the Bryant camp disputing the victim’s attractiveness. And it’s pretty gross. So because he’s a rich, famous athlete, it’s unlikely he would have raped some “hotel worker.” Have sex, sure. Not rape, because he could get any girl he desired - Can’t fault that logic.
Alternatively, maybe the rich, famous athlete, who has likely rarely heard the word no in life or been rejected in a sexual situation, chose to completely disregard the “hotel worker’s” words and/or non verbal cues once things reached a certain stage, like the choking or the pain or the bleeding.
edit - eh, late response and already better responses above
This is along the lines of the Bryant camp disputing the victim’s attractiveness. And it’s pretty gross. So because he’s a rich, famous athlete, it’s unlikely he would have raped some “hotel worker.” Have sex, sure. Not rape, because he could get any girl he desired - Can’t fault that logic.
Alternatively, maybe the rich, famous athlete, who has likely rarely heard the word no in life or been rejected in a sexual situation, chose to completely disregard the “hotel worker’s” words and/or non verbal cues once things reached a certain stage, like the choking or the pain or the bleeding.
edit - eh, late response and already better responses above
I just want to chime in and say that I’ve had quite a few difficult conversations the past few days with a former student athlete and rape survivor who is pretty convinced that, generally speaking, the male population does not care about her story and struggle. I want to thank those posters and their posts that I have been able to use as examples as to why her sentiment isn’t true, though I still understand why she feels that way. So...thank you.
I absolutely forgot about the rape allegations when I first heard the news. I'm not sure if that can be attributed to my aging memory, the effectiveness of his counsel, or my ambivalence toward the NBA.
My first instinct when my son told me the news was that it had to be a hoax, so I looked it up on the web. Only TMZ had it and the news pretty much crashed their server. Came here next (because we did break the Nomar trade in 2004) and sure enough, our online community did not disappoint.
We love our heroes and tend to whitewash them when they cross over to the other side. So his number(s) will get retired. His name will be on billboards (up in lights at the Basketball HOF for the last couple of days). I imagine that there will be velvet paintings of him adorning roadside corners, flea markets, and trailer parks for the next fifty years. But those will speak to the legend, not to the man. As the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (great John Wayne/Jimmy Stewart movie) attested, when it comes to printing the truth or the legend, print the legend.
For those of you directly affected by rape and sexual assault, my heart absolutely goes out to you. I have a college age daughter and there would be no depth to the limit of depravity that I would inflict if that ever happened to someone I loved. Thank you for sharing your stories. It put the proper perspective on what should be the legacy of Kobe Bryant and not his ability to put a ball through round hoop.
My first instinct when my son told me the news was that it had to be a hoax, so I looked it up on the web. Only TMZ had it and the news pretty much crashed their server. Came here next (because we did break the Nomar trade in 2004) and sure enough, our online community did not disappoint.
We love our heroes and tend to whitewash them when they cross over to the other side. So his number(s) will get retired. His name will be on billboards (up in lights at the Basketball HOF for the last couple of days). I imagine that there will be velvet paintings of him adorning roadside corners, flea markets, and trailer parks for the next fifty years. But those will speak to the legend, not to the man. As the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (great John Wayne/Jimmy Stewart movie) attested, when it comes to printing the truth or the legend, print the legend.
For those of you directly affected by rape and sexual assault, my heart absolutely goes out to you. I have a college age daughter and there would be no depth to the limit of depravity that I would inflict if that ever happened to someone I loved. Thank you for sharing your stories. It put the proper perspective on what should be the legacy of Kobe Bryant and not his ability to put a ball through round hoop.
I don’t doubt that he grew as a person over the past 15 years, but was he a great person? Boy, I don’t know. He did call a referee a “f**ing fa**ot” in 2011. Those kinds of slurs don’t come from nowhere. And his “apology” in that case was that he didn’t mean it literally. Seriously, he wanted us to know he wasn’t actually calling the ref gay, it was just a slur.
The lore (and I don't know if it's true) is that he thereafter did actually attempt to make amends by outreach in the LGBTQ community. Again, not sure if that is fact or part of the myth. If true, it kind of underscores a point that I think Marciano and others have tried to make about the redemption angle with respect to the rape -- he never did something equivalent with respect to violence against women.
Edit: Nevermind, now that I’m caught up with the thread I see Marciano and several posters have addressed the issues with your post better than I could have
Last edited:
Absolutely. And if he hadn’t been credibly accused of rape eight years earlier, I think it might be fair to say he made a mistake, and good on him for learning from that and making amends. But because of what happened in Colorado, I think the suspicion that his post-slur efforts were self-serving are also fair. Especially when we’re talking about a 33 year-old, intelligent, well-traveled man living in Los Angeles In 2011.
I guess what I’m saying is that while the gay slur standing alone might be forgivable, I don’t think it’s supports the “great person, totally changed in the last 15 years” theory.
Let me try this. As a direct reply to your first sentence... Yes. I think that is more likely than the other. I suspect his motivation was to cheat on his wife in the same manner in which he had previously.
On everything else...
The greater point that I was trying to make - when this back and forth started - is that in the course of discussing the appropriateness of bringing up Kobe's sexual assault case, it was being presented by some here that the settled science was that Kobe = rapist. This is not true. This is not the only reasonable conclusion from the case information. This was not the conclusion described in Kobe's final statement. This isn't a unique opinion. This is not the conclusion of everyone but some fringe group of Kobe's entourage. This was an important and valid point because it ties directly to the original discussion of appropriateness.
The very first thing I said on the subject was that it was a valid topic for discussion... I just had the crazy notion that giving things a little time would be... decent.
With respect to "attacking" anyone... I didn't go after anyone for having a different view than I did. I didn't accuse anyone of having an agenda to "distort facts," or of not being aware of the "numerous discussions," or whatever the thing about tropes. I think we're all looking at the same information. We could do point by point and I could respond to all the comments, but takes on the case information are already out there from both sides and on the other - they seem like a discussion for another forum.
Beyond the rape allegations and homophobic slurs, I always thought Kobe wasn't particularly well-loved by other players or in general because he had a bit of that Jordan-esque cutthroat approach, but combined with fewer skills and more selfishness.
I get that after he retired, he repositioned himself as a bit of an elder statesmen of the game and has been more visible mentoring younger players he won't ever compete against and also championing his daughters' teams and leagues, but was my view of Kobe as a player wrong or Celtics-biased?
I mean, his most famous teammate celebrated his Finals loss to the Celtics by going to a club and dropping one of the best diss lines this side of Ether/Hit 'em Up.
I get that after he retired, he repositioned himself as a bit of an elder statesmen of the game and has been more visible mentoring younger players he won't ever compete against and also championing his daughters' teams and leagues, but was my view of Kobe as a player wrong or Celtics-biased?
I mean, his most famous teammate celebrated his Finals loss to the Celtics by going to a club and dropping one of the best diss lines this side of Ether/Hit 'em Up.
My old high school in Connecticut yesterday encouraged kids to wear purple & gold and at 8:24 the kids yelled Kobe.
This is just some perfect confluence of celebrity and social media right? It’s people putting French flags behind their Facebook profile pics or making IG posts about koalas.
Somewhere a Marriott will be offering free coffee and pastries for eight minutes and twenty-four seconds.
Shea Serrano with a good Kobe piece because it is actually more about grief and mortality than Kobe.
https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2020/1/29/21113814/kobe-bryant-gianna-fatherhood-death?__twitter_impression=true
https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2020/1/29/21113814/kobe-bryant-gianna-fatherhood-death?__twitter_impression=true
Here is my theory. There is a certain level of cache that people seem to derive from being severely affected by the premature death of famous people. I remember my father repeatedly telling the story of where he was when JFK was shot. MLK, Elvis, John Lennon.
These were all truly horrific things that did affect people deeply and they talk about them. I think there is a generation that doesn’t have that. Kurt Cobain was 26 years ago. Tupac was 24. What since?
I think there is a large segment under 40 or so who are subconsciously thinking, and I get that this is crass, aha, I have one now. Who cares if the narrative doesn’t quite fit the facts? I guess you could say the very same thing about JFK, or Elvis, etc.
Michael Jackson only ten years ago, Prince, etc...but yeah I think you’re onto something.
I don’t know, a lot of that same energy is put into #NeverForgetting. Although, damn, we are approaching 20 there too.
I think people just like it, whether or not they’ve “got one.”
Last edited:
Yeah, Michael Jackson, of course. How could I forget. So, maybe not a very well thought out theory. But there is a kernel of an idea there. I just can’t articulate it well.
Prince’s death was like the anti-Kobe in a way. It was as much or more people sad about the art and not really as much about the persona. Plenty of that too, but on a far more proportionate scale. Which is really weird given how masterful Prince was at the persona building game.
Prince’s death was like the anti-Kobe in a way. It was as much or more people sad about the art and not really as much about the persona. Plenty of that too, but on a far more proportionate scale. Which is really weird given how masterful Prince was at the persona building game.
Many of the older millennials would also point to 9/11. That was our generation’s JKF assassination.
I think the musicians are a slightly different concept. Cobain and Tupac wrote music that was deeply personal to people, and their deaths, as well as those of Prince and MJ meant no more production from people who were creating great art. On the other hand, like Kobe, people's identities were tied into their achievements - dancing to Thriller or Purple Rain, watching Kobe play in the finals.
Kobe's death had that extra sting that occurs when young, healthy athletes die. It's a real slap in the fact to the myth of immortality or the power of the human body. He was around the same age as Brady and Brees, and looked like he could still go out and drop 30 points on any given night. If that dude at that age could die like that, well then sucks for any of us in cars or crossing streets.
Beyond that, though, I think there's a tragedy chic that's been amplified by social media. People who I know never followed basketball are rushing to make tribute posts to Kobe. It's an ethos. It's a belonging. It's look at me, I'm sad too. That's why I compared it to people throwing flags behind their Facebook pictures representing the latest country to suffer a terrorist attack or natural disaster.
I suppose there's also an impulse to push back against feelings of mortality. Kobe died, but we took a 24 second violation, or changed a jersey number or made a post, so I took an action. It's completely ineffectual and likely selfish, but something happened that I couldn't control, and so I did something I could.
9/11 is a good comparison. This past Sept. 11, I was out with someone complaining that her IG post featuring a lone jumper leaping from one of the towers was met with some backlash by her followers. I told her I agreed it was triggering and inappropriate. She argued that she should be able to commemorate the event and mourn it however she wanted, at which point I reminded her that she was a kid living in Orange County when it happened, had no actual memory of the day and didn't lose anyone or know anyone who did.
Before walking away from the conversation - and the person - it came out she thought 9/11 was a hoax or a conspiracy. That conversation is interesting, and horrifying, to me in hindsight though. This person - who had no recollection and no connection to the event - was so eager to be a part of the communal grieving and remembrance that, despite believing it was all faked, couldn't understand why a picture of someone's relative plunging to their death wasn't the way to go.
I don’t think anyone came out and directly said Kobe = rapist. I think a lot of people (myself included) believe based on the evidence presented that it is more likely than not that Bryant sexually assaulted a 19 year old hotel employee. Even if he had been convicted, many people would not be convinced of his guilt because women say the darndest things and sometimes can even convince juries. It’s how the court system works. The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt not 100 percent certainty of guilt.
If you want to believe it was consensual rough sex and she just claimed it to be a sexual assault, you’re entitled to your belief. Maybe she asked him to choke her to the extent that he left bruises on her neck. Maybe she asked him to fuck her hard enough to leave more lacerations than can be counted on her posterior forchette. Maybe, based on the traumatic penetrative trauma noted in the SANE review of her vaginal area, her blood ended up on his shirt and she asked him to keep going. I can’t say for certain. I can say, in my experience, I’ve never left bruises on a partner’s neck and I’ve never ended up with a partner’s blood on my shirt. Of course, I’ve also never had a partner file a rape allegation against me the morning after sexual intercourse. So maybe Bryant was incredibly unlucky. He had rough consensual sex with a woman who happened to choke and leave bruises on her neck, tear up her vaginal area enough to get blood on his shirt, and then she goes almost immediately to report to a coworker and the next day to the police.
But to cap it off, after she reports, she voluntarily gets the awesome experience of going through a SANE. Maybe you don’t know what they do in that process but it’s very invasive. She continues to participate in the criminal proceeding despite death threats and other forms of intimidation. After 14 months, who knows how many death threats, her sexual and mental health history being displayed openly in court, she decides she’s out and doesn’t want to participate. I don’t find that exonerating to Bryant. It was just a successful defense strategy at play. You may remember the OJ Simpson defense team being successful as well by implicating errors in the state’s investigation. When you think about it, there was much less evidence indicating guilt in the Simpson case than there was in the Bryant case. The Bryant case included a live victim.
Drawing a comparison somewhat, but hypothetically if Papi had died last summer in the shooting, would it have been this? He seems to have the same stature in MLB as the head of the brotherhood of players. Was just thinking how close we were to something very similar.
The Reader’s Digest condensed version of this post: “People are stupid.”
And I agree.
I’m in LA for business... every bus I’ve seen today flashes the bus line/ destination and then has a second ‘rip kobe’ that flashes... every public bus
The Lakers put out their first statement (other than cancelling the Clippers game) tonight on twitter:
View: https://twitter.com/Lakers/status/1222730022017855489
View: https://twitter.com/Lakers/status/1222730023406206977
Of note, there is charity that the lakers and the Bryant family put together for the other families on the aircraft.
It looks like the team was waiting for Vanessa Bryant to make a statement first, as she put out a statement, including announcing the charity earlier tonight:
View: https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/1222692417310081024
Perhaps a bit on the national level, but you cant look at something like the scene below through your darkest green glasses and say that the thousands of people still showing up for the memorials at the Staples center three days later are just trying to impress their friends with how much their new avatar shows that they "care."
Papi or Pedro would have to be the closest Red Sox comparisons to what Kobe means to LA. But they would have to have only been Red Sox, won five titles, grown up in the city since they were 17, chose to stay there after their career and then made a significant impact in the community in retirement. Brady would probably be closest, if he stays this off season and then settles in the Boston area.
View: https://twitter.com/LakersTalkESPN/status/1222746201289678853
View: https://twitter.com/Lakers/status/1222730022017855489
View: https://twitter.com/Lakers/status/1222730023406206977
Of note, there is charity that the lakers and the Bryant family put together for the other families on the aircraft.
It looks like the team was waiting for Vanessa Bryant to make a statement first, as she put out a statement, including announcing the charity earlier tonight:
View: https://twitter.com/Rachel__Nichols/status/1222692417310081024
Perhaps a bit on the national level, but you cant look at something like the scene below through your darkest green glasses and say that the thousands of people still showing up for the memorials at the Staples center three days later are just trying to impress their friends with how much their new avatar shows that they "care."
Papi or Pedro would have to be the closest Red Sox comparisons to what Kobe means to LA. But they would have to have only been Red Sox, won five titles, grown up in the city since they were 17, chose to stay there after their career and then made a significant impact in the community in retirement. Brady would probably be closest, if he stays this off season and then settles in the Boston area.
View: https://twitter.com/LakersTalkESPN/status/1222746201289678853
Last edited:
I had this discussion last night with a few people, but I agree. I stopped following the NBA sometime around 2011 when I started working full time and other interests took over, but when I was in high school Kobe was appreciated for his obvious talent but was also slammed for his immaturity and selfishness.
I don't think your view of Kobe the player is wrong, and I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned more. After winning 3 championships with Shaq and being able to legitimately be in the conversation of greatest team of all time, Kobe refused to play second fiddle anymore and worked to drive Shaq out of town. Shaq, mind you, just won 3 straight finals MVPS. The season after Shaq was hurt and they started 11-19 without him, the Lakers signed Karl Malone and Gary Payton to short term deals. That summer, Kobe criticized Shaq calling him a poor leader. After they got smoked by the Pistons in the finals, Shaq was traded to the Heat.
Now, should the Lakers have chosen Shaq over Kobe? Probably not given the age of the two players. And they actually made the right choice in the end. Kobe won 2 more while Shaw won one more before unsurprisingly breaking down over time.
But that wasn't the point. Kobe and Shaq together should have won 6 championships. But Kobe wanted the ball more and didn't want to make one of the greatest centers of all time the focal point of the offense. He was a selfish baby for most of his career.
Well this is the story of my daughter - a college athlete - just last spring. So it's been unbelievably difficult to see the hosannas sung of Kobe. I have friends who are pushing the whole "change the NBA's logo to Kobe" idea and I'm just like.....no no no. I am not posting on my social media about Kobe because he just died and I am not trying to "bury" him (metaphorically) by bringing up his dark past. But man, what he did was....heinous. First the rape. Then destroying this woman as she sought justice. His case is exhibit A of why my daughter won't likely get justice for the crime committed against her.
And to your point about the depravity you'd inflict. Brother, I hear you. The dude that did this to my daughter is 6'4", 220. And it wouldn't matter one little bit.
Tara Sullivan addresses the allegations against Kobe in the Globe (to their credit, this is currently the lead story on the sports section of the Globe website):
The unpleasant, complicated side of Kobe Bryant’s legacy has to be addressed too
The unpleasant, complicated side of Kobe Bryant’s legacy has to be addressed too
The other night I was watching the Kobe-centric TNT broadcast of the Celtics game with my daughter. After a while she just sadly said, to no one in particular, "This is why guys always get away with it" and walked out of the room. This is a strong, smart, athletic, confident 17 yr old, and I have never heard here sound so resigned and beat-down. Talking to her later, she just realized what would probably occur if something similar happened to her or her friends. You want to say that things are getting better, but you hear all of the praise for Kobe, and the minimization of his actions, and I read the heartbreaking experiences of women or parents in this forum, and you realize that she probably is right.
My god, that is sad. Immense love to everyone who has spoken up about how this has affected them, whether they are a victim of assault or have a loved one who is. Or even any woman out there who as the same feelings as TiredParent's daughter.
My main thought about Kobe’s death is who made the decision to fly with so much fog around? The LAPD choppers were grounded. Did Kobe get special treatment? Had he become so confident after 7 years of commuting by chopper that he thought flying through fog was safe? Or did his pilot say “we can do this.”
JFK Jr. made the same bad decision.
JFK Jr. made the same bad decision.
That's very sad. I was at a college campus yesterday. 57% female. There was an easel in front of an entrance, blocking a part of the walkway, to an academic building, with an "8 24 Remember Kobe" or something like that tribute written in marker.
This whole thing is very sad and honestly, anger-inducing.