Yes, thanks, that sums it up better than I did. Of course, (1) Ainge may not have offered that, and (2) I like Sullinger's game better than most.
Kevin Love News and Rumors
- Thread starter Reardon's Beard
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Ed Hillel said:
I'm probably closer to Brick on my Wiggins outlook than Infield Infidel and DeJesus, but we don't know what the proposed Boston deal actually was, do we? If it was Smart/Sully/three unprotected, but likely mid-round picks, I agree that that's competitive with the Cavs' package. I also agree with you that the Wolves still have to take the Wiggins deal. I disagree that Wiggins has to turn into a superstar lest the Wolves regret it. If he turns out to be a slightly worse version of Paul George (I don't think he'll ever be as good a passer as George), I think the Wolves will be fine with that.
Also, once Lebron went to the Cavs, Love may have changed his stance on re-upping with a Celtics team that would've had to shoot its wad to land him.
I admit that some of my reaction is based on the disconnect of listening to a guy who said he wouldn't have traded the #17 pick alone for Love say that Wiggins/Bennett/pick is a bust for Minny unless Wiggins turns into a no-doubt Hall of Famer.
Devizier said:
For simplicity purposes, lets assume we get to keep Danny, so this becomes a question of what we want Danny playing with.
Minny's big roster pieces (like guys you really want to keep on the roster) are Wiggins, Pekovic and maybe Rubio.
Minny owes Phoenix one first if its above 12 in 2015 or 2016, otherwise they give them their 2016 and 2017 2nds (no big deal), and they owe their 2015 2nd to Houston. Besides that they own their picks, plus whatever they get in the Cleveland deal.
Boston's big roster pieces are Rondo, Smart and Sully
Boston doesnt have its 2015,16 or 17 2nds (whoopiieee). We own all our firsts and (I just love writing this) will get:
- 2015 1st from Clippers
- 2016 1st from Brooklyn
- 2017 swap rights for 1st with Brooklyn
- 2018 1st from Brooklyn
- One of: 2016-18 1st from Cleveland if above 10, or 2019 unprotected 1st
- A bunch of conditional 2nds not worth writing about
Minny has a big edge in that Wiggins has the potential to be your franchise guy and Smart probably has could be your #2 potential. Big edge Minny.
Moving to Rondo/Sully vs Pekovic/Rubio, Pekovic might be slightly better than Sully, but Rondo is a better asset than Rubio. Slight edge Boston.
Draft picks arent even close. Both of us are bottoming out at the moment so I'd say the value of our own 1sts are a slight advantage Boston because Minny might have to give one up. But all our extra picks give us a huge, huge advantage.
I'd say the draft pick advantage wipes out the Wiggins advantage if not more, so then its the slight advantage in other roster talent where we win out.
Jeez, after laying that all out, its much closer than I thought, yikes. I dont feel so good now. At least we have Danny!!
No kidding right? What do people think Rondo's value is on the trade market? Nobody wants to give up anything of value as they know they won't offer him what he wants for an extension. Few teams would want a rental at the PG position plus he has the cloud hanging over him of The Big Three making him look a ton better than his game actually is.Blacken said:
Pekovic is 28, 6 years older than Sullinger or Olynyk. By the time Wiggins becomes a dominant player (if he ever does) Pekovic will be on his way out.
And Sullinger at the rate he's growing over last season and reports of this summer will be 375.Brickowski said:
From what I have been reading the trade isn't involving the sixers as planned.MakMan44 said:
The wolves want to swap Bennett for young separately apparently, and the talk is this may have to go down separately but that has issues due to the delay until they can move Bennett in a new deal.
I was just reading that there is a work around but is vulnerable to a veto from the league as its a salary cap dubious deal.
The report says Bennett and a first for young... But that seems insane right?
Young is ok but for the first overall and a first when young is only controlled for one year?I mean it's the Timberwolves but.... I know Bennett would not sniff the top pick on a redo but....
That would seem a nice move for the sixers. I'd want Bennett on a rebuilding team vs young anyway let alone plus a first.
There must be a salary dump too or something that would make more sense.
The sixers cutting salary and adding last year's top pick and another first round pick would make some people's minds explode.
So let's see that happen.
Develop how? His skill level is already advanced and he doesn't possess the athelticism to grow any more skill into his physical limitations. I mean he wasn't close to those numbers on a losing team without any other scorers last year. I don't see this type of upside at all.Ed Hillel said:
wutang112878 said:
Boston has 2015 2nd Rounder. In 2017, they lose their right to the second round pick only if they switch draft picks with the Nets and the Celtics make the playoffs. They also get Philadelphia's second round picks in 2015 and 2016 if Philadelphia doesn't make the playoffs this year.
That 2015 second pick from Philly is going to be valuable.
Sullinger's big butt makes up for his lack of vertical. Players with his instincts on the glass don't come around too often, nor do big men with his passing ability. He needs to play with a shot blocking center, something the Celtics have not had during Sullinger's tenure. He's been forced to play center himself the majority of the time, which is not his natural position.
Not sure you should ever look at deals like this though. Sure, Boston's mid-first round picks could turn out to be special, but at this moment, Wiggins is clearly a better asset than those unknowwn picksEd Hillel said:
On what grounds? They can't prove anything unless there is a Joe Smith-like deal in writing which would be asinine even by the Cavaliers standards.soxhop411 said:
Nothing.To.See.Here
HomeRunBaker said:
Did you even read the article? Love has "agreed" to opt out of his deal after this season and sign for 5 more years. That kind of backroom deal is not allowed. Kind of surprised (although maybe I shouldn't be) that they simply can't just extend Love now, although it's possible that the max contract years is what is preventing it.
Love doesn't want to extend right now. More years and more dollars (as well as seeing what LeBron does) after next season. Also, I've seen right here that there's no agreement in place. Unless the league can prove something, it's all conjecture. (Which the original linked article literally states)
EDIT: There's an auto play vid in the link. Here's the relevant piece, so you don't have to go to it.
EDIT: There's an auto play vid in the link. Here's the relevant piece, so you don't have to go to it.
HomeRunBaker said:
His potential development could come in one of two ways.
1. Becoming a better outside shooter, particularly from 3. That would be a big help, and I think is still a possibility
2. Getting in better shape. His skill level is high, but he doesn't have the endurance to maintain it consistently. He will have very good 6-8 minute stretches, but it's hard for him to keep that going for an entire game. Plus, if he plays big minutes one game, he is often worn down for the next game.
If he fixes one of those two things, he'll be a solid starter. If he fixes both, he will be very good.
this whole illegal agreement thing & the one with joe smith make zero sense to me why anyone should be punished. It just seems like something for the league to abuse with selective enforcement. an illegal agreement is no agreement at all because either side can back out of it at the moment of truth with zero repercussions.
Just like the carlos boozer handshake deal with the Utah jazz owner. He ended up double-crossing the guy and he was completely within his rights to do so because it wasn't a binding agreement.
Just like the carlos boozer handshake deal with the Utah jazz owner. He ended up double-crossing the guy and he was completely within his rights to do so because it wasn't a binding agreement.
Silver doesn't have the stones to challenge LBJ and the Cavs.
Sterling is one thing... The face of the NBA is something entirely different.
I know how preposterous the opinion sounds on the surface, but the Cavs/Wolves/Silver will make this issue go away.
Sterling is one thing... The face of the NBA is something entirely different.
I know how preposterous the opinion sounds on the surface, but the Cavs/Wolves/Silver will make this issue go away.
I still can't believe mongoloid Flip Saunders was somehow able to squeeze Andrew Wiggins out of the Cavs.
The Cavs had no one to bid against, and they still folded.
The Cavs had no one to bid against, and they still folded.
Three10toLeft said:
What am I missing here? What package from Cleveland sans Wiggins would have netted Love here? Are you saying that Bennett plus picks would have trumped the potential Boston or Golden State offers?
It probably wouldn't trump GS, or Boston's offer. But it was pretty obvious that GS had no intentions of offering Klay Thompson, so really all you had was the platter of picks that Boston was offering.DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
At the end of the day, Cleveland knew they had the best hand, and what Minnesota really wanted. If another team stepped up with a better offer, then throw Wiggins in. But if Golden State didn't miraculously flip flop, their probably wouldn't be a better deal than what Cleveland could offer of Bennett, picks, and Tristan Thompson. Cleveland shouldn't have given in.
The likelihood of Flip taking the Boston deal was very low, considering that Flip is delusional enough to believe that scrapping for the eight seed in the WC is the best route for the T-Wolves.
Three10toLeft said:
Completely disagree with this. As DMBH said, Cleveland has very little of value aside from Wiggins. THere was ZERO chance of getting Love without including Wiggins in a trade. The Bulls, Celtics, Warriors, and plenty of over teams could have trumped Bennett, Waiters, Thompson et al. The Cavs didn't cave, they had nothing else to give.
If CLE didn't offer Wiggins, Flip would have sent Love to CHI. While not everyone might agree that CHI's package was the best one out there, I think the fact that Flip could send Love to a direct competitor would be reason enough to pick CHI over a CLE offer without Wiggins.
There are probably a dozen teams who would've topped an offer of Bennett and a few picks in the 20s.
A lot of writers have been ginning up controversy to get page-clicks, but this isn't that complicated -- once the Cavs offered Wiggins, Love was going to Cleveland. Which is why I think the Cavs could and should have called Flip's bluff and moved Bennett separately, even if it was just for a late 1st rounder and flotsam to send to Minny to make the salaries work.
A lot of writers have been ginning up controversy to get page-clicks, but this isn't that complicated -- once the Cavs offered Wiggins, Love was going to Cleveland. Which is why I think the Cavs could and should have called Flip's bluff and moved Bennett separately, even if it was just for a late 1st rounder and flotsam to send to Minny to make the salaries work.
Maybe I'm too high on Wiggins and I'm not properly evaluating the offers set forth by the other teams...
It just seems like Cleveland may have jumped the gun by giving up the top overall pick in a loaded draft. I feel like their is a chance they could have had their cake and ate it too. But whatever... They netted Love and appeased Lebron, so that counts for something.
It just seems like Cleveland may have jumped the gun by giving up the top overall pick in a loaded draft. I feel like their is a chance they could have had their cake and ate it too. But whatever... They netted Love and appeased Lebron, so that counts for something.
Three10toLeft said:
Given that Lebron has an opt-out at end of this year, doing what he wants (so long as defensible basketball-wise) is pretty much the only rational choice. If he had said he was indifferent one could make the case for keeping Wiggins, but he is so incredibly valuable on his own once he weighs in, the discussion is over...at least, for the Cavs, it ought to be.
Three10toLeft said:
The problem (if you want to call it that) for the Cavs is that they have no moderate value chips with which to negotiate. Their future draft picks and non-Wiggins young players are just not very valuable. If they had some other semi-enticing players, they could have played hardball with Flip and tried harder to hang onto Wiggins.
But any non-Wiggins offer they could come up with simply had zero chance of being a competitive offer. If they had drafted better the past few seasons, the Cavs might have been able to get creative with a trade. Instead, they had no choice but to include Wiggins if they wanted Love.
Why would Minnesota have accepted any deal without Wiggins? The rumored Chicago deal is better than anything Cleveland could offer without Wiggins.Three10toLeft said:
PedroKsBambino said:
Yeah, I think this is what needs to be considered when people are talking about giving up Wiggins. LeBron coming back to Cleveland wasn't just a happy coming home story, it was a very strategic play by LeBron, especially with the one year deal. He can cover it up by saying it is about earning more $$$ under the new cap, but it also allows him to basically call all the shots in building the basketball team. If LeBron wants to give up Wiggins for Love, then they have to do it. If LeBron thinks Ray Allen has something left in the tank, then they have to do it, etc.
They're not really comparable. In the Smith case he was a non-T'wolf that signed with Minnesota at a below-market rate with the understanding that Minnesota would give him a max deal when they had Bird rights (and it wasn't that unusual, Danny Manning did the exact same thing a few years before). The T'wolves left behind a paper trail, which is why Stern had to address the situation.ALiveH said:
In this instance the Cavs have sounded out Love about what he's looking for as part of the trade negotiation, which is just due diligence in the new CBA (the current CBA punishes players for signing extensions). They may indeed have a framework worked out with Love, but it would be no different than Boston having a framework worked out with Rondo, because Love will be a Cleveland free agent.
But in the smith case, either side could have reneged on the agreement after he played out his below-market deal. Since it was an "illegal" agreement, there was no recourse if either side reneged. An agreement that cannot be enforced is no agreement at all. So, why was anyone punished for this?
Similarly Carlos Boozer reneged on his handshake deal with the Cavs owner. There was no recourse for the cavs owner since it wasn't an enforceable deal. So it wasn't really an agreement at all.
Similarly Carlos Boozer reneged on his handshake deal with the Cavs owner. There was no recourse for the cavs owner since it wasn't an enforceable deal. So it wasn't really an agreement at all.
I think the NBA wanted to look the other way in the Smith case, the same way they turned a blind eye every other time it happened (and even more broadly as at the time Denver traded Antonio McDyess to Phoenix there were rumors that McDyess already had an unwritten agreement to re-sign with the Nuggets the ensuing summer). But the T'wolves had a written agreement with Smith, which is why the NBA came down on them. In any event, I was just pointing out that in trade talks teams are allowed to talk to the agents of the players they're trading for. There's no tampering where the Cavs are negotiating with the T'wolves and Minnesota is allowing them to talk to Love. Once the trade's final Cleveland can even reach an explicit agreement with Love on a new deal, they just can't sign it until the following summer.ALiveH said:
The Cavs were bidding against the clock. They needed Love this season to begin establishing their core identity. Flip recognized this and the fact that he had Love under contract for this season had him holding all the cards....and he knew this.Three10toLeft said:
Three10toLeft said:
I think the Paul George injury really pushed the Cavs to include Wiggins and make the deal. With Indiana out of the way, their only real competition in the East, for probably the next two years, is Chicago. It made sense to take advantage of the opening and go all in right now, vs. trying to find a way to get Love without including Wiggins (or just keeping and developing Wiggins).
This doesn't make any sense to me, but I suppose that's probably because I am not a coach worried about losing his job.
I don't think much of Anthony Bennett, but Thad Young isn't going to move the needle much in Minneapolis anyway. With Bennett there's at least a chance (albeit a slim one) that he develops into a poor man's Kevin Love and gives the Timberwolves someone who can be a part of their core for the future. If the wolves are really going all in this year I hope they trade Wiggins and Bennett to Toronto.
I don't think much of Anthony Bennett, but Thad Young isn't going to move the needle much in Minneapolis anyway. With Bennett there's at least a chance (albeit a slim one) that he develops into a poor man's Kevin Love and gives the Timberwolves someone who can be a part of their core for the future. If the wolves are really going all in this year I hope they trade Wiggins and Bennett to Toronto.
