Kevin Durant Offseason Thread

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You know Schilling was never as good as 2004 again. There is a good chance he ruined his career pitching that game. As for his legacy, it enhanced it more than another two years as a 20 game winner would have. It is also likley after the initial injury in game 1, the rest of his career would have been the same.

It is an apt comparison though, since KD was playing incredibly well. Had he retired to the bench with no further damage after staking the Warriors to a 15 point lead his performance would have been like Schilling.
He was also a 37 year old pitcher not in great shape with a shit ton of wear on his arm and previous injuries. He had two more $13M/year seasons on his contract that would take him to age 39. On top of that he actually had monetary incentive to risk his body for a World Series as he had $2M bonus for it plus it vested his $13M option for 2007.

Schilling in 2004 and KD in 2019 even with identical risks as far as injuries would have a very different decision making process due to future outcomes.
 

tims4wins

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You know Schilling was never as good as 2004 again. There is a good chance he ruined his career pitching that game. As for his legacy, it enhanced it more than another two years as a 20 game winner would have. It is also likley after the initial injury in game 1, the rest of his career would have been the same.

It is an apt comparison though, since KD was playing incredibly well. Had he retired to the bench with no further damage after staking the Warriors to a 15 point lead his performance would have been like Schilling.
Ruined his career? He sucked in 2005, but he came back in 2006 to throw 204 innings at a 120 ERA+ and then another 151 innings in 2007 at age 40 with a 123 ERA+ (plus another 24 innings in the playoffs: 4 starts, 3-0, 3.00 ERA, 1.167 WHIP).
 

reggiecleveland

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He was also a 37 year old pitcher not in great shape with a shit ton of wear on his arm and previous injuries. He had two more $13M/year seasons on his contract that would take him to age 39. On top of that he actually had monetary incentive to risk his body for a World Series as he had $2M bonus for it plus it vested his $13M option for 2007.

Schilling in 2004 and KD in 2019 even with identical risks as far as injuries would have a very different decision making process due to future outcomes.
I don't think you read what I wrote very carefully. I conceded it may have had no effect on Schilling's future career. KD leading his team to a victory would have been heroic in the same way Schilling did it. KD's injury shows the risk, and the bravery/heroism of what he and Schilling attempted. Sure we can split hairs over the athletes, type of injury, etc. But to play while injured is risky, thus the admiration. I believe Schilling himself said thousands of guys at work with arthritis put up with more pain.

Your point that Kd risked more, with less potential reward (now it is 3-2) in obviously valid.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, I'm not sure why it's so out of bounds to think there's at least a decent chance his teammates were pressuring him. We saw earlier in the season with his run-in with Draymond that there is/was a LOT of tension on the team regarding his impending free agency. I can easily imagine Klay expressing the thought that "hey dude, I could barely walk and I went out and played, sack up."

We saw the exact same dynamics in San Antonio with Kawhi's injury--his teammates explicitly tried to guilt him into playing when he didn't think he was ready or able, and it built a ton of resentment on all sides.

There are lots of possible explanations for what went down in Game 5, but it's absolutely in bounds to wonder about how internal team dynamics affected the situation, because we've known for awhile there was tension on exactly these lines.
I don't understand how anyone can even say it's out of bounds that his teammates were pressuring him based on pressers where they literally say that they expect him back prior to being medically cleared.

This is big business and the calls are coming from the top as they typically do. When one doctors deems Kevon Looney "out for the year" which Kerr reiterates in his daily presser then hours later it is retracted and he's out on the floor you can be damn sure that these calls are coming from up above. If they pressure Looney to return by clearing him why would they ever handle an impending FA like Durant with kid gloves?
 

DrewDawg

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Not that we didn't really know, but Durant confirms he ruptured his Achilles and had surgery today.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Well, that suggests that he made the decision to play and that he is fully onboard with his teammates at least (I know some people seized on the Draymond spat from earlier in the season but that sort of thing happens on every NBA team just about every season and, more importantly, just about every workplace or household in the world - you have a beef with your coworker/family member and then you move on).
 

Sam Ray Not

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Slater: Steve Kerr said KD was cleared by multiple parties, including an outside consultant. They were told reinjury of calf was only concern, Achilles tear wasn't: "Would we go back and do it over again? Damn right."


Friedell: Kerr reiterates what Bob Myers said after Game 5 — that the decision for KD to come back was a collaborative one. Warriors doctors, Durant’s doctors, Warriors training staff and Durant all signed off on the decision for him to play.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Slater: Steve Kerr said KD was cleared by multiple parties, including an outside consultant. They were told reinjury of calf was only concern, Achilles tear wasn't: "Would we go back and do it over again? Damn right."


Friedell: Kerr reiterates what Bob Myers said after Game 5 — that the decision for KD to come back was a collaborative one. Warriors doctors, Durant’s doctors, Warriors training staff and Durant all signed off on the decision for him to play.
Interesting. Well that blows a hole in some narratives out there about Durant succumbing to outside pressure and that plus the IG post also conflicts directly with the idea of a toxic relationship between Durant and his teammates (his arch enemy Draymond, who apparently Facetimed him immediately after game five).
 

Sam Ray Not

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Well, that suggests that he made the decision to play and that he is fully onboard with his teammates at least (I know some people seized on the Draymond spat from earlier in the season but that sort of thing happens on every NBA team just about every season and, more importantly, just about every workplace or household in the world - you have a beef with your coworker/family member and then you move on).
Meh, screw that. I choose to live in the reality where Steph and Klay came at him with lead pipes.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Interesting. Well that blows a hole in some narratives out there about Durant succumbing to outside pressure and that plus the IG post also conflicts directly with the idea of a toxic relationship between Durant and his teammates (his arch enemy Draymond, who apparently Facetimed him immediately after game five).
This was KG's IG post right after the game:

 

radsoxfan

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Would love to see those pre and post Achilles injury MRIs. Hard to imagine the 2 injuries are totally unrelated but I guess anything is possible.

If KD has a mid calf strain, totally normal muscle/tendon beyond that, then an Achilles tear.... that would be very weird but maybe he’s just really unlucky.

But if he had a distal calf tear at the muscle-tendon junction that extended distally to the Achilles you can’t really claim they’re totally unrelated.

I also wonder if there was some intervention at the distal calf after the initial injury, people doing all kinds of PRP and even steroid injections (not a good idea if you ask me) to get pro athletes back sooner. But that’s 100% thinking out loud.
 

djbayko

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Would love to see those pre and post Achilles injury MRIs. Hard to imagine the 2 injuries are totally unrelated but I guess anything is possible.

If KD has a mid calf strain, totally normal muscle/tendon beyond that, then an Achilles tear.... that would be very weird but maybe he’s just really unlucky.

But if he had a distal calf tear at the muscle-tendon junction that extended distally to the Achilles you can’t really claim they’re totally unrelated.

I also wonder if there was some intervention at the distal calf after the initial injury, people doing all kinds of PRP and even steroid injections (not a good idea if you ask me) to get pro athletes back sooner. But that’s 100% thinking out loud.
Yeah, as a non-doctor who has only read up on this topic recently (including your posts) but also understands a bit of physics...that message is weird. I guess it could be two unrelated injuries. I also wonder if the injuries are one in the same and they are simply "dumbing down" the facts for laypeople. Kerr is also not a doctor.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Would love to see those pre and post Achilles injury MRIs. Hard to imagine the 2 injuries are totally unrelated but I guess anything is possible.

If KD has a mid calf strain, totally normal muscle/tendon beyond that, then an Achilles tear.... that would be very weird but maybe he’s just really unlucky.

But if he had a distal calf tear at the muscle-tendon junction that extended distally to the Achilles you can’t really claim they’re totally unrelated.

I also wonder if there was some intervention at the distal calf after the initial injury, people doing all kinds of PRP and even steroid injections (not a good idea if you ask me) to get pro athletes back sooner. But that’s 100% thinking out loud.
Just wanted to echo others' thanks for all these great medical insights, Rad. Really hard to find elsewhere.

Whether we count this as two distinct injuries or one: after a very durable start to his career, KD's track record of lower-leg issues through his late 20s and into his early 30s is now officially a bit worrisome.

Aug 2014: Jones fracture in right foot, missed two months after surgery
Dec 2014: Injured ankle
Dec 2014: Sprained toe
Feb-Mar 2015: Second surgery after continued discomfort in surgically repaired right foot
Mar 2017: Grade 2 MCL strain and tibial bone bruise (this one fluky, as it was caused by Zaza's giant melon falling into his planted leg)
Apr 2017: Strained calf after returning from MCL, missed two games in opening round v POR
May 2019: Grade 2 calf strain
Jun 2019: Ruptured Achilles

Still .... if I'm the Warriors I throw the 5 year / $220M max at him on day one of free agency and try to blow other offers out of the water. Write next season off (and maybe get the DPE to use on a Rudy Gay type?) Knock wood, but elite length + elite shooting seems like it should age well; and even if he only gets to 85% of his peak self, I think he could approximate age 31-35 Dirk Nowitzki, who was easily a max player. (At their peaks he's the significantly better scorer, passer, ballhandler, defender than Dirk, so could lose a bit and still be about that level, imho).

Of course, I'm sure he'll get other offers too (not 5/$220M, but the max 4/$160M allowable to other teams), so if he's even a little bit pissed at the Ws med staff I think we can presume he'll move on. Either way, here's (secular) praying for the speediest and most complete recovery possible.
 

radsoxfan

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CA also has a 250k cap on pain and suffering for medical malpractice cases. The only big money verdicts can be related to future medical expenses (covered anyway) and lost future earnings. So if the Warriors offer him the Supermax, they nip any MedMal case in the bud (I kid, I kid.....).
 

Sam Ray Not

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Do you get injury exceptions for free agents?
Hmm, not sure. Per CBA FAQ: "This exception only can be granted to the team for which the player was playing when his injury or illness was known, or reasonably should have become known. A team cannot trade for an injured player and subsequently apply for a Disabled Player exception for that player."

As far as I can see, they say nothing about signing (or re-signing) an injured player, but I'd assume the same caveat about trading for an injured player would apply?

I mean, KD's getting the max from someone either way, but I'd guess it becomes a lot easier for some teams to swallow a lost season if they could use the DPE to sign a replacement player at the full MLE (~$10M).
 

lexrageorge

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A team can only use the DPE if the player gets injured after being acquired by the team. So no DPE for signing an injured player.

The DPE was basically useless for the Celtics anyway.
 

McBride11

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Yeah, multiple, I’d file the malpractice suit for KD if he never got an MRI.

Updated systems involve both the size and location of the tear, larger tears and more tendon involvement (rather than muscle fiber) usually worse. Many of the systems are based on hamstring and quad injuries (lots of soccer and rugby players studied) since those are the most common and larger muscles are easier to accurately categorize.

Each muscle has its own specific anatomical considerations associated as well. Distal calf tears usually often are more tendon than muscle (myotendinous), have worse blood flow, and heal slower. Complete avulsion proximally at the femur is very rare.

Also, as pure speculation, if KD did have a distal calf tear that extended distally into the Achilles that might be more complicated to fix than a traditional Achilles rupture. Most Achilles complete tears are horizontally oriented 4-6 cm from the bony insertion, well beyond the muscle fibers from the calf. His might be more complex, hence lots of specialists to weigh in.


Cool thanks man. My MSK system is weak and I hate trying to read MRIs.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Interesting. Well that blows a hole in some narratives out there about Durant succumbing to outside pressure and that plus the IG post also conflicts directly with the idea of a toxic relationship between Durant and his teammates (his arch enemy Draymond, who apparently Facetimed him immediately after game five).
I don't see how that blows a whole into anything. Nobody is claiming Durant didn't want to be out there......ALL athletes want to be out there. Klay wanted to be out there in G3 but the team protected his well being for the rest of the series. Reggie Lewis wanted to be out there so bad that he found Gilbert Mudge to clear him. The Warriors made the conscious decision to clear Durant to begin Phase One of his rehab going full speed with no restrictions in a Finals game. People will have their own opinions......mine remains that this was criminal negligence coming from Myers and/or Lacob.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Would love to see those pre and post Achilles injury MRIs. Hard to imagine the 2 injuries are totally unrelated but I guess anything is possible.

If KD has a mid calf strain, totally normal muscle/tendon beyond that, then an Achilles tear.... that would be very weird but maybe he’s just really unlucky.

But if he had a distal calf tear at the muscle-tendon junction that extended distally to the Achilles you can’t really claim they’re totally unrelated.

I also wonder if there was some intervention at the distal calf after the initial injury, people doing all kinds of PRP and even steroid injections (not a good idea if you ask me) to get pro athletes back sooner. But that’s 100% thinking out loud.
While not perfect science you can see Durant reach for the area of his lower calf when the initial injury occurred. Also what Sam and others have said......it is awesome having you pop into these threads when injuries are being discussed.

 

DrewDawg

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Woj also saying that NYK and the Nets both still interested in pairing up KD and Kyrie.
 

djbayko

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I don't see how that blows a whole into anything. Nobody is claiming Durant didn't want to be out there......ALL athletes want to be out there. Klay wanted to be out there in G3 but the team protected his well being for the rest of the series. Reggie Lewis wanted to be out there so bad that he found Gilbert Mudge to clear him. The Warriors made the conscious decision to clear Durant to begin Phase One of his rehab going full speed with no restrictions in a Finals game. People will have their own opinions......mine remains that this was criminal negligence coming from Myers and/or Lacob.
It makes a big difference IMO. I’m willing for doctors to come in and tell me I’m wrong but a large part of diagnosing an ailment is honest feedback from the patient. If someone wants to play, they can help sway things, conscisously or otherwise.

Again, I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but your evidence that you’re correct isn’t as iron clad as you think it is. I still contend we know very little about what transpired behind closed doors.
 
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radsoxfan

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People will have their own opinions......mine remains that this was criminal negligence coming from Myers and/or Lacob.
I have a hard time blaming Myers or Lacob based on what we know. They’re not doctors, and the doctors cleared him to play. I’m not sure what executive would override that in the NBA finals, especially if the player also wants to play.

Now if behind closed doors they were pressuring the doctors for the answer they wanted, or they were shopping around until they found a doctor that said what they wanted to hear.... then sure you can blame them. But if they tried their best in good faith to assemble medical experts and this was their expert opinion I can’t blame them for what happened.

There are certainly questions regarding the medical opinions, ones that honestly we will likely never know the answer to. A bad result doesn’t mean a bad decision, and it’s entirely possible they acted reasonably and this was just a very unfortunately outcome.

I will say that I’ve seen plenty of team doctors fly very close to the sun trying to get players back sooner than most would expect. And I also know of team doctors pressuring radiologists to say things a certain way in reports because they know certain wording forces their hand into a longer term treatment or surgery.

It’s a high stress environment and there are a lot of competing interests at play (not to mention a lot money at stake). It’s certainly possible some of the docs involved let their egos and competitiveness get in the way of making a rational decision. It’s also possible this was just a really unfortunate accident. We’ll probably never know the answer.
 
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Soxfan in Fla

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I have a hard time blaming Myers or Lacob based on what we know. They’re not doctors, and the doctors cleared him to play. I’m not sure what executive would override that in the NBA finals, especially if the player also wants to play.

Now if behind closed doors they were pressuring the doctors for the answer they wanted, or they were shopping around until they found a doctor that said what they wanted to hear.... then sure you can blame them. But if they tried their best in good faith to assemble medical experts and this was their expert opinion I can’t blame them for what happened.

There are certainly questions regarding the medical opinions, ones that honestly we will likely never know the answer to. A bad result doesn’t mean a bad decision, and it’s entirely possible they acted reasonably and this was just a very unfortunately outcome.

I will say that I’ve seen plenty of team doctors fly very close to the sun trying to get players back sooner than most would expect. And I also know of team doctors pressuring radiologists to say things a certain way in reports because they know they know certain wording forces their hand into a longer term treatment or surgery.

It’s a high stress environment and there are a lot of competing interests at play (not to mention a lot money at stake). It’s certainly possible some of the docs involved let their egos and competitiveness get in the way of making a rational decision. It’s also possible this was just a really unfortunate accident. We’ll probably never know the answer.
Considering the public backlash on this it wouldn’t surprise if they show more than usually would IF it really is an unfortunate accident just to publicly cover their asses.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Average drop is -19% for PER and -2.8 for BPM for players aged 30 and under that suffered a torn achilles (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8wapye/impacts_of_torn_achilles_tendons_by_the_numbers/). That would take Kevin Durant from an elite level to borderline All-Star.

For players over 30 the injury is usually career ending. For those under 30 it's not but the player rarely returns to a high level. Dominique Wilkins is really the only one that came back at an All-Star level.
Interesting that Rudy Gay seems to have come back the same because Gay is the closest comp to KD on that list.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I have a hard time blaming Myers or Lacob based on what we know. They’re not doctors, and the doctors cleared him to play. I’m not sure what executive would override that in the NBA finals, especially if the player also wants to play.

Now if behind closed doors they were pressuring the doctors for the answer they wanted, or they were shopping around until they found a doctor that said what they wanted to hear.... then sure you can blame them. But if they tried their best in good faith to assemble medical experts and this was their expert opinion I can’t blame them for what happened.

There are certainly questions regarding the medical opinions, ones that honestly we will likely never know the answer to. A bad result doesn’t mean a bad decision, and it’s entirely possible they acted reasonably and this was just a very unfortunately outcome.

I will say that I’ve seen plenty of team doctors fly very close to the sun trying to get players back sooner than most would expect. And I also know of team doctors pressuring radiologists to say things a certain way in reports because they know they know certain wording forces their hand into a longer term treatment or surgery.

It’s a high stress environment and there are a lot of competing interests at play (not to mention a lot money at stake). It’s certainly possible some of the docs involved let their egos and competitiveness get in the way of making a rational decision. It’s also possible this was just a really unfortunate accident. We’ll probably never know the answer.
Txs for all of your insights regarding the process. Really helps cut through the BS.

Have their been any recent studies on state of athlete recoveries from achilles tears?
 

benhogan

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I have a hard time blaming Myers or Lacob based on what we know. They’re not doctors, and the doctors cleared him to play. I’m not sure what executive would override that in the NBA finals, especially if the player also wants to play.

Now if behind closed doors they were pressuring the doctors for the answer they wanted, or they were shopping around until they found a doctor that said what they wanted to hear.... then sure you can blame them. But if they tried their best in good faith to assemble medical experts and this was their expert opinion I can’t blame them for what happened.

There are certainly questions regarding the medical opinions, ones that honestly we will likely never know the answer to. A bad result doesn’t mean a bad decision, and it’s entirely possible they acted reasonably and this was just a very unfortunately outcome.

I will say that I’ve seen plenty of team doctors fly very close to the sun trying to get players back sooner than most would expect. And I also know of team doctors pressuring radiologists to say things a certain way in reports because they know they know certain wording forces their hand into a longer term treatment or surgery.

It’s a high stress environment and there are a lot of competing interests at play (not to mention a lot money at stake). It’s certainly possible some of the docs involved let their egos and competitiveness get in the way of making a rational decision. It’s also possible this was just a really unfortunate accident. We’ll probably never know the answer.
this doctor comes to pretty much the same conclusion as yourself:

Brief absolved the Warriors’ medical staff of blame, and pointed to Durant’s flying around in warmups without issue, adding he likely would have made the same call. Durant had 11 points in 12 minutes before being knocked out of the game.
“This was a matter of bad luck more than bad judgement,” Brief said.


 

radsoxfan

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this doctor comes to pretty much the same conclusion as yourself:

Brief absolved the Warriors’ medical staff of blame, and pointed to Durant’s flying around in warmups without issue, adding he likely would have made the same call. Durant had 11 points in 12 minutes before being knocked out of the game.
“This was a matter of bad luck more than bad judgement,” Brief said.


Just to clarify, I wouldn't automatically absolve the Warrior's medical staff of any blame. I certainly wouldn't use Durant running around in warm-ups as very useful indicator, it sounds like that doctor is being highly speculative. I just can't say for sure they did anything wrong without more specific info, sometimes reasonable decisions lead to unfortunate results. I would however absolve the GM/owners of any blame, assuming they weren't pressuring any of the docs or doctor shopping for someone who had the most aggressive recovery timetable.

The most interesting thing to me is that Kerr said all of the medical opinions were that any risk of re-injury was another calf strain, but that there was no risk to the Achilles. Obviously given what we know now it's hard to believe that's the case, though prospectively perhaps that was reasonable.

I will say that in a general sense, the calf muscles and Achilles tendon are of course intimately related. The 2 superficial gastrocnemius muscles along with the deeper soleus muscle begin to blend together and coalesce as the the Achilles tendon over the distal third of the calf, the anatomy is very straightforward.


If Durant had a partial tear of his distal calf involving some of these myotendinous junction fibers, I do find it a little strange that no one considered that playing before it was healed could put the Achilles as risk.

But the devil is in the details, and unless someone wants to show me his scans, it's impossible for me know have a firm opinion one way or another. I'd be curious to know if any of the NY docs he's seeing now were consulted on the initial injury, or they are seeing everything for the first time. If they weren't consulted, I'd love to know what they're saying behind closed doors, but that also I'm sure will remain unanswered.
 

radsoxfan

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To briefly give some context, my MSK radiology colleagues and I have read thousands of calf tears and Achilles tears, and I am not aware of any complete Achilles tear that was closely related to a subacute partially healed calf tear a month prior. Even if the anatomy suggests a possible link, it's not a classically known risk factor that I know of. A very brief google search doesn't seem to show much either, though if someone finds a case report or series please let me know.

The elephant in the room of course is that we also don't routinely see patients with (apparently) grade 2 distal calf tears returning to elite NBA finals level athletics in a month. I would assume even the most well-known experienced orthopedic surgeons have only rarely (if ever) dealt with this exact series of circumstances (location, grade, specific required date of return, this level of superstar, desperate team, etc).

There is no orthopedic or radiology manual that spits out the correct answer in this rarified air. In the end, its a lot of art over science: experience, hunch, ego, groupthink. And there is no shortage of ego in most of these discussions. If you are in a room or on a conference call with some of the most respected docs in your field and some of them are adamant he should be cleared, it would be pretty tough to go out on a limb and voice concerns that something you've never even seen happen is a significant risk.
 
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Three10toLeft

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Just spit balling...

If KD doesn't want to return to GS after this year, and Kyrie doesn't want to return to Boston...

Would a Hayward for Durant sign and trade make any sense for GS/Boston? Assuming KD is willing to sign w Boston.

It would allow Boston to develop Brown and Tatum, fully evaluate them as leads on the team. We also have the Memphis pick next year.

Hayward seems like an ideal player to add to GS if he continues an upward trajectory from his injury, and the Warriors will need all the help they can get with Klay out most of next year, as well as the fact that they will be pretty much shut out of the free agent market for the foreseeable future with Curry, Klay, and Dray's contracts (assuming Klay and Dray are both resigned).
 

nighthob

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Just spit balling...

If KD doesn't want to return to GS after this year, and Kyrie doesn't want to return to Boston...

Would a Hayward for Durant sign and trade make any sense for GS/Boston? Assuming KD is willing to sign w Boston.

It would allow Boston to develop Brown and Tatum, fully evaluate them as leads on the team. We also have the Memphis pick next year.

Hayward seems like an ideal player to add to GS if he continues an upward trajectory from his injury, and the Warriors will need all the help they can get with Klay out most of next year, as well as the fact that they will be pretty much shut out of the free agent market for the foreseeable future with Curry, Klay, and Dray's contracts (assuming Klay and Dray are both resigned).
If Kyrie were willing to sign an extension after a Durant sign & trade, then yes, it makes sense for Boston to do it. Assuming that the Warriors throw in their 2020 #1 to equalize value. ;)
 

Sam Ray Not

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A team can only use the DPE if the player gets injured after being acquired by the team. So no DPE for signing an injured player
Per Danny LeRoux and others, the Warriors would actually get the DPE (~$9.2M) if they re-signed Durant and he was declared out for the season (since the injury occurred while he was with GS).
 

DrewDawg

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Just spit balling...

If KD doesn't want to return to GS after this year, and Kyrie doesn't want to return to Boston...

Would a Hayward for Durant sign and trade make any sense for GS/Boston? Assuming KD is willing to sign w Boston.
From all indications, I don't think Kyrie will give Boston any glowing recommendations right now. Especially to his best friend.
 

DrewDawg

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Durant can think for himself and he has previous experience with Danny/Brad from the Hamptons.
Come on man, I never said he couldn't think for himself. But do you *really* think, if these guys are close enough that they were going to team up together, wouldn't listen to each other in a case like this---and that would outweigh The Hamptons? About which KD said the Celtics weren't really in the game anyway? That it was GS and OKC.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I have a hard time blaming Myers or Lacob based on what we know. They’re not doctors, and the doctors cleared him to play. I’m not sure what executive would override that in the NBA finals, especially if the player also wants to play.

Now if behind closed doors they were pressuring the doctors for the answer they wanted, or they were shopping around until they found a doctor that said what they wanted to hear.... then sure you can blame them. But if they tried their best in good faith to assemble medical experts and this was their expert opinion I can’t blame them for what happened.

There are certainly questions regarding the medical opinions, ones that honestly we will likely never know the answer to. A bad result doesn’t mean a bad decision, and it’s entirely possible they acted reasonably and this was just a very unfortunately outcome.

I will say that I’ve seen plenty of team doctors fly very close to the sun trying to get players back sooner than most would expect. And I also know of team doctors pressuring radiologists to say things a certain way in reports because they know certain wording forces their hand into a longer term treatment or surgery.

It’s a high stress environment and there are a lot of competing interests at play (not to mention a lot money at stake). It’s certainly possible some of the docs involved let their egos and competitiveness get in the way of making a rational decision. It’s also possible this was just a really unfortunate accident. We’ll probably never know the answer.
There is an enormous line to me in clearing a player to play, which the doctors are fully capable of doing and did so successfully in this example since Durant was clearly healthy enough to dominate an NBA Finals game, and to responsibly formulate a rehab program that ramps the player up to speed. The medical diagnosis was correct imo…..the problem I saw leading up to the game, and posted here, was that this injury is the exact type of injury where you absolutely must slowly progress to full speed as anyone who has had a calf injury understands. It appears that everyone making these decisions/suggestions from Myers, Lacob, Steph and Klay in the presser (especially Klay....karma?), to Durants own doctor had conflicts of interest and not necessarily Durant's best interest at stake. There was nobody there to protect Durant from himself as he obviously wanted to be out there.

Did I think a calf would tear his achilles? I'm certainly not a doctor but that morning Scal did share on his show that other team doctors had voiced his concerns to him in the past on returning too early from a calf injury being threatening to the achilles. This is something you suggested is possibly as well depending on the area of the injury. To clarify, I absolutely do not blame the doctors as he WAS able to play and play effectively unless someone actually said, "Yeah go all out balls to the wall on Day One you'll be fine." which I highly doubt was the case. Durant could not ever win in this situation with doctors clearing him, players publicly pressuring him, and upper management throwing him out to the wolves. It stinks and it sucks.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
17,936
That sounds logical, but the idea that a guy that suffered an Achilles injury that will have him out a season and then possibly take another half-season to get ready, and NOTHING will change in his free agency seems off to me.
I’ll take this shot and say Durant, if not voted to start the ASG, is added to a roster (East or West, who knows?) and this platform is used as his return from injury. That would be roughly 8 months from his injury which was the same time it took Wes Mathews to start an exhibition game and a few weeks shy of Rudy Gay’s return.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
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Jul 19, 2005
5,534
NYC
Iggy not exactly painting the best light on injury management in Oakland

Fwiw, he was just on CNBC yesterday totally gushing about the Warriors medical staff (the same interview where he predicted Klay and KD would return, and said “no one’s going to the Knicks”).

Andre’s been even more voluble than usual lately, I think largely cos he has a new book out (and the dude is nothing if not smart and business savvy). I didn’t see the specific interview in question, but I know he has spoken and written eloquently about how (white) ownership in general profits off of and exploits the bodies of the (mostly black) players. I’d assume he knows this applies to the Warriors as much as any other team, while at the same time realizing that he has it pretty great in GS in relative terms.

I suppose I’ll need to watch the interview, though. Question for MDs: isn’t the difference between a bone bruise and a fracture largely semantic / a matter of degree? As I understand it, all bone bruises are a fracturing of the soft tissue and cartilage around the bone. I think there was similar blurring of terms with the Looney ribcage bruise/fracture. It’s almost unavoidable when you’re trying to translate a complex MRI reading of a specific injury into a generic one or two word term suitable for tweeting (strain, sprain, tear, grade one, grade two, non-displaced fracture, bone bruise, e.g.)

In the future they should probably avoid the oversimplification / categorization of language and just tweet out the actual MRI...
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,635
Santa Monica
Fwiw, he was just on CNBC yesterday totally gushing about the Warriors medical staff (the same interview where he predicted Klay and KD would return, and said “no one’s going to the Knicks”).

Andre’s been even more voluble than usual lately, I think largely cos he has a new book out (and the dude is nothing if not smart and business savvy). I didn’t see the specific interview in question, but I know he has spoken and written eloquently about how (white) ownership in general profits off of and exploits the bodies of the (mostly black) players. I’d assume he knows this applies to the Warriors as much as any other team, while at the same time realizing that he has it pretty great in GS in relative terms.

I suppose I’ll need to watch the interview, though. Question for MDs: isn’t the difference between a bone bruise and a fracture largely semantic / a matter of degree? As I understand it, all bone bruises are a fracturing of the soft tissue and cartilage around the bone. I think there was similar blurring of terms with the Looney ribcage bruise/fracture. It’s almost unavoidable when you’re trying to translate a complex MRI reading of a specific injury into a generic one or two word term suitable for tweeting (strain, sprain, tear, grade one, grade two, non-displaced fracture, bone bruise, e.g.)

In the future they should probably avoid the oversimplification / categorization of language and just tweet out the actual MRI...
on CNBC, AI discussed his stock portfolio, which has plenty of tech IPOs. They have done quite well for him financially, sounds like Warrior players are getting access to these IPO deals that retail investors get no access to.

I guess it's fine, as a shareholder/owner of the company, to profit off the employees of those companies? AND to get preferred access to those hot IPOs?
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
7,472
on CNBC, AI discussed his stock portfolio, which has plenty of tech IPOs. They have done quite well for him financially, sounds like Warrior players are getting access to these IPO deals that retail investors get no access to.

I guess it's fine, as a shareholder/owner of the company, to profit off the employees of those companies? AND to get preferred access to those hot IPOs?
Athletes are high worth individuals that in general get access to "hot" IPOs. This is nothing new. A company that doesn't return profits to shareholders is likely to have neither shareholders nor employees for very long.
 

Sam Ray Not

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SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
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NYC
Nice financial breakdown in Forbes of the potential signings of KD, Klay, Cousins, Looney and the possibility of a $350M GSW payroll.

 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,635
Santa Monica
Athletes are high worth individuals that in general get access to "hot" IPOs. This is nothing new. A company that doesn't return profits to shareholders is likely to have neither shareholders nor employees for very long.
You missed my point. I'll clarify.

Andre is complaining about ownership in one situation. Then turning around and benefitting from being an owner (shareholder) in another. That's called hypocrisy.

Making it a black/white thing is beyond silly. If he doesn't like the long regular season, he should be lobbying for roster expansion, not game contraction. Increase the pie for all professional athletes, unfortunately, you don't hear that enough from the stars.

Also, HNW's get very little access to hot IPO deal flow. Equity syndicate desks allocate 99% of those deals to institutional clients that pay the Investment Banks. Plus AI is getting access to those deals via San Fran VCs, which HNW retail have no access to either.
 
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