Kemba Walker to Boston

benhogan

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Yeah, it’s pathetic that the Celtics didn’t have the balls to ask him not to play. He’s waited his whole career for a real playoff run; likely would have been amenable to that argument.
Nick Nurse padding his COTY resume :(

All the good feelings about the Elam Ending fade away in the Cellar with this news

Expect a bunch of load mgmt the final 28 games for Kemba, hope that fixes him for the playoffs
 

bosockboy

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Nick Nurse padding his COTY resume :(

All the good feelings about the Elam Ending fade away in the Cellar with this news

Expect a bunch of load mgmt the final 28 games for Kemba, hope that fixes him for the playoffs
At some point though you have to hit the gas for the #2 seed. It’s extremely important.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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This is a terrible Minnesota team. This screams load management more than an actual injury.
But then we don't get to clutch pearls and get "big mad" at Nurse for Walker's usage, Walker for not speaking up for his playoff chances and the Celtics for not having the balls to stop him from playing in the All Star game. Its an outrage I tells ya!
 

lovegtm

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But then we don't get to clutch pearls and get "big mad" at Nurse for Walker's usage, Walker for not speaking up for his playoff chances and the Celtics for not having the balls to stop him from playing in the All Star game. Its an outrage I tells ya!
I mean, the guy had a clear issue with his knee the past month as well as the potential to take 7 straight days and rest it, especially after playing a lot in the Clippers OT game.

I’ve heard that rest is good for making bodies healthier.

And yes, I’m definitely “big mad” that the team and Kemba didn’t prioritize that over playing in the All-Star game, as well as letting a rival coach have the main say in his usage.

Kemba was mostly held out of practice as well, so I don’t buy the load management thing fully, although I have no doubt he’d be playing if this were a playoff game.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I mean, the guy had a clear issue with his knee the past month as well as the potential to take 7 straight days and rest it, especially after playing a lot in the Clippers OT game.

I’ve heard that rest is good for making bodies healthier.

And yes, I’m definitely “big mad” that the team and Kemba didn’t prioritize that over playing in the All-Star game, as well as letting a rival coach have the main say in his usage.

Kemba was mostly held out of practice as well, so I don’t buy the load management thing fully, although I have no doubt he’d be playing if this were a playoff game.
You are entitled to feel that way.

I tend to think its purely load management and that if Walker's knee was any worse than the other injuries most NBA regulars are contending with in late February, he wouldn't have played much, if at all, during the AS game.

Its absolutely possible that Nurse was trying to hurt a direct rival for seeding but then there is Walker apparently being ok with it. Frankly, if Nurse didn't honor any minutes restrictions, I place more blame on Walker - if he is really hurt and didn't ask out of the game, his priorities are way out of whack. Its not like Nurse could have suspended him or fined him.

This is Kemba's quote:

"I was actually supposed to be on a minute restriction, but the game got too close," Walker said. "I wanted to be out there. I wanted to compete. I knew down the stretch that it would get serious like that, and I wanted to be a part of it."
So if you buy that there was a mistake made, Walker being selfish is the main culprit. I want to be clear that I do not think he was being selfish and that he is most likely fine.

However if you think that he is really hurt, it follows that Walker cares more about his individual accomplishments - like being out there at the end of the allstar game - versus team goals. Unless you buy into a deeper conspiracy where Walker is covering for Nurse for some odd reason.
 

DJnVa

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But then we don't get to clutch pearls and get "big mad" at Nurse for Walker's usage, Walker for not speaking up for his playoff chances and the Celtics for not having the balls to stop him from playing in the All Star game. Its an outrage I tells ya!
Come on man, I didn't say it was an outrage. But it is odd to miss 3 games in early Feb, play a few, and then 30 minutes in ASG, then sit out first game 5 days later. I know Minnesota sucks, but every regular season game is more important than the ASG. And again, I'm not outraged, I said the optics look weird.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Come on man, I didn't say it was an outrage. But it is odd to miss 3 games in early Feb, play a few, and then 30 minutes in ASG, then sit out first game 5 days later. I know Minnesota sucks, but every regular season game is more important than the ASG. And again, I'm not outraged, I said the optics look weird.
I didn't say you said it was an outrage. I was not pointing at you or anyone in particular - you are completely entitled to feel how you feel. Furthermore, I agree that the optics are bad.

But let's be honest here - if Walker was hurt enough to be on a minutes restriction, he should have asked out of the game. Nurse had no real authority to oppose him.

Maybe Kemba is as selfish as Kyrie?
 

lovegtm

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I didn't say you said it was an outrage. I was not pointing at you or anyone in particular - you are completely entitled to feel how you feel. Furthermore, I agree that the optics are bad.

But let's be honest here - if Walker was hurt enough to be on a minutes restriction, he should have asked out of the game. Nurse had no real authority to oppose him.

Maybe Kemba is as selfish as Kyrie?
This is exactly why it would have been helpful for the Celtics to tie Kemba-Ulysses to the mast: it’s very hard for competitors like Kemba and Nurse to look at things rationally in the heat of the moment.

I don’t blame Kemba at all, and Nurse only mildly. If the Celtics want Kemba to not play or be on a real minutes restriction, it’s up to them to communicate that a lot more forcefully to all parties. The fact that they failed at this is pretty clear.

Hopefully he gets fully healthy and it ends up not biting them for seeding.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I tend to think its purely load management and that if Walker's knee was any worse than the other injuries most NBA regulars are contending with in late February, he wouldn't have played much, if at all, during the AS game.
I tend to agree with you. It just looks weird that he is sitting out the first game afterward. But I don't see anything sinister.
 

lovegtm

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The good thing about the Cs is their wealth of playmakers allows them to rest Walker without losing too much.
This part is definitely true. I get antsy about Kemba's health just because of how critical I think he'll be to creating advantages against teams like Philly and Milwaukee. For your standard Timberwolves without KAT game, should be fine.
 

Captaincoop

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I didn't say you said it was an outrage. I was not pointing at you or anyone in particular - you are completely entitled to feel how you feel. Furthermore, I agree that the optics are bad.

But let's be honest here - if Walker was hurt enough to be on a minutes restriction, he should have asked out of the game. Nurse had no real authority to oppose him.

Maybe Kemba is as selfish as Kyrie?
Nurse had no authority to oppose him? Nurse was coaching the team. Nurse had 100% of the authority over who was on the court. I have not read about the Nurse/minutes restriction thing outside this thread, but if Kemba was restricted and Nurse let him play beyond the minutes limit, that is a very legitimate reason to be pissed at Nurse. He has a responsibility to honor the limit. Obviously players in the heat of a game are going to want to play more...that's why they have athletic trainers and coaches.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Nurse had no authority to oppose him? Nurse was coaching the team. Nurse had 100% of the authority over who was on the court. I have not read about the Nurse/minutes restriction thing outside this thread, but if Kemba was restricted and Nurse let him play beyond the minutes limit, that is a very legitimate reason to be pissed at Nurse. He has a responsibility to honor the limit. Obviously players in the heat of a game are going to want to play more...that's why they have athletic trainers and coaches.
Nurse is essentially a figurehead in this context. He can be your villain here but I am not sure what he can actually do to force a player to do something.

That said, I don't know exactly what went on. My view is clearly that this is much ado about nothing but I may be wrong. Even so, I think blaming Nurse is wrong too. Either Walker was healthy enough to play what he played or he wasn't and expecting a person who isn't Walker's regular coach - and who probably spent no more than a few minutes on line-ups for this game - to monitor the situation closely just isn't realistic.

If Walker was really at risk of exacerbating his injury from extra minutes in an exhibition game that might cost him playing time in more meaningful games, he deserves the most blame.

For now, I think we are simply witnessing load management in action.
 

JohnnyTheBone

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For the record, I was cheesed-off at the way Kemba's minutes were handled in the ASG in real time. They're not load-managing him tonight after 5 days off. He has a knee issue.
 

shoelace

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Nurse is essentially a figurehead in this context. He can be your villain here but I am not sure what he can actually do to force a player to do something.

That said, I don't know exactly what went on. My view is clearly that this is much ado about nothing but I may be wrong. Even so, I think blaming Nurse is wrong too. Either Walker was healthy enough to play what he played or he wasn't and expecting a person who isn't Walker's regular coach - and who probably spent no more than a few minutes on line-ups for this game - to monitor the situation closely just isn't realistic.

If Walker was really at risk of exacerbating his injury from extra minutes in an exhibition game that might cost him playing time in more meaningful games, he deserves the most blame.

For now, I think we are simply witnessing load management in action.
I'm inclined to agree with this perspective, despite the tweet above saying Kemba had some swelling. I get the sense that they want to rest Kemba against a non-playoff opponent because they won't have an opportunity to do so until 3/4 when they play the Cavs on the second night of a back to back. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kemba sit out that game as well. If he sits for the Lakers game, I will be concerned. I'm expecting both Kemba and Hayward to take games off for load management purposes for the remainder of the season, so it's hard to parse what is load management and what is a real concern at this point.
 

OurF'ingCity

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If there’s anger to be had here, shouldn’t it be directed at the Celtics medical staff? Why is it that they didn’t “know this would be possible” ahead of the ASG?
 

DJnVa

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If there’s anger to be had here, shouldn’t it be directed at the Celtics medical staff? Why is it that they didn’t “know this would be possible” ahead of the ASG?
Because he had played the last few games prior to and it hadn't swelled up?
 

lovegtm

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If there’s anger to be had here, shouldn’t it be directed at the Celtics medical staff? Why is it that they didn’t “know this would be possible” ahead of the ASG?
Definitely, hence why I directed my initial anger at the organization. Not having really strict instructions for how your 29 year-old star should handle his injury management seems and seemed dumb.

Hopefully we can stop treating suggestions that the team should be managing this better as “hot takes.” Sometimes hot is the right temperature.
 

joe dokes

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If there’s anger to be had here, shouldn’t it be directed at the Celtics medical staff? Why is it that they didn’t “know this would be possible” ahead of the ASG?
Why is is that you do?

There has been no suggestion that he's had to have his knee drained before.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Have to be honest, some of the "anger" has to be directed at Kemba. He knew he was supposed to be on a minutes restriction and didn't stick with it.
 

benhogan

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Definitely, hence why I directed my initial anger at the organization. Not having really strict instructions for how your 29 year-old star should handle his injury management seems and seemed dumb.

Hopefully we can stop treating suggestions that the team should be managing this better as “hot takes.” Sometimes hot is the right temperature.
+1
Being aware, anticipating and then putting forth a game plan is definitely not a "hot take". It's all part of injury management.

This was poorly handled by all. Hopefully, Danny/Brad take note and adjust the next time. There was plenty of talent on Team Giannis to spread the minutes :(
 

fairlee76

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Come on man, I didn't say it was an outrage. But it is odd to miss 3 games in early Feb, play a few, and then 30 minutes in ASG, then sit out first game 5 days later. I know Minnesota sucks, but every regular season game is more important than the ASG. And again, I'm not outraged, I said the optics look weird.
Yep, it is odd. As is Kemba’s line about “the game got close and I wanted to be out there.” Uh, OK. Win it for Team Whoever you were on.
 

DJnVa

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“I do think it’s important, like, there’s no way he would have played or our medical staff would have (let him play in the All-Star game) if they thought this was going to be possible after the break,” Stevens said. “It’s just unfortunate. It probably would have happened at some point, clearly, but it’s unfortunate that it happened there
I think it’s short-term enough that that (playing Sunday) will be in the discussion,” Stevens said.
Stevens said the medical staff approved one big game in the week leading up to the All-Star break, which was Walker’s 45-minute outing against the Clippers.

“I think there will be games and times where we try to restrict (his minutes)," Stevens said. "But there will also be times where we’ll try to have him go further because when you get to the playoffs and you get to that time of year, we’re going to need our very best players to be able to go 40 (minutes). So there’s gotta be a balance of you want guys to experience that a little bit, but at the same time we’ll have to determine when that is with him now.”
Stevens added that Walker had another scan on his knee, and everything looked good structurally. “It’s unfortunate but it doesn’t sound like it’s long term or anything,” he said.
 

lovegtm

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If we are getting mad, Stevens deserves blame too if that tweet is correct.
Yes, and? As I've said (with timestamps, before the news came out today), the Celtics didn't look great in this, and I primarily blame the organization/coaches etc. Emotionally I want to be pissed at Nurse and Kemba, but this is mostly on the Celtics.

Anyway, it is what it is. Hopefully the team can get him healthy before the playoffs without getting too screwed on seeding.
 

Imbricus

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He also had a Synvisc injection apparently. That's not a good sign either. He's got something going on there that's a little more than a sore knee. Hopefully, he can get it under control.
 

DJnVa

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He also had a Synvisc injection apparently. That's not a good sign either. He's got something going on there that's a little more than a sore knee. Hopefully, he can get it under control.
That's in the article and they say that's not a big deal....relatively speaking of course.
 

Imbricus

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Eh, I had pretty bad knee pain at one point, and it was an option I was looking at. It's basically synthetic knee lubricant when your synovial fluid isn't thick enough and cushioning properly. It's something that people with chronic knee pain will consider at a certain point. Maybe it's more common for pro athletes to get the shot; I don't know. I'm not sure I'd consider it a small deal, but not a huge deal, true.
 

TheRooster

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Has anyone considered that this might have simply been bad luck? Neither Stevens not the medical staff have reliable crystal balls.
 

benhogan

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Has anyone considered that this might have simply been bad luck? Neither Stevens not the medical staff have reliable crystal balls.
Kemba has been inactive for 7 games/3 different stints, over the last 6 weeks due to knee soreness. He has been on minute restrictions the games he has returned. He played 45minutes against the Clippers on Thursday before the All-Star game. Miami had no problem asking for Jimmy Butler's minutes to be restricted, who has been dinged up. This is on Brad/Danny/Celtic training staff/Kemba, not luck.

I'm not blaming Nick Nurse here. But roster minutes should be more balanced in an Exhibition All-Star game for all the fans. All the players are excellent/playable.

Regardless the Celtics should put a minute restriction on a player that's been recently injured. If that's considered un-manly hand wringing/pearl clutching, so be it, basic injury mgmt.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He's a pro athlete. He's going to want to play, and that's great. Coaches and trainers need to protect him from himself.
He is also a 29 year old man and an NBA veteran who is playing on, perhaps, the best professional team he has ever been a part of. If he cannot balance his desire to play in a fun exhibition game versus his ability to play in more meaningful games down the stretch or beyond, it may not be so great.

Expecting Nurse, who is not Walker's coach, to monitor his individual minutes without Walker speaking up just isn't realistic. He cannot suspend or fine Walker and if Kemba told Nurse he was good to go, why wouldn't the coach just roll with him? Its kind of a win-win for him and the Raptors.

If this isn't just another manufactured crisis (i.e. it impacts him beyond today), its really on Walker imho. The C's coaching staff can make all the requests they want but only Walker was at the game.
 

lovegtm

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He is also a 29 year old man and an NBA veteran who is playing on, perhaps, the best professional team he has ever been a part of. If he cannot balance his desire to play in a fun exhibition game versus his ability to play in more meaningful games down the stretch or beyond, it may not be so great.

Expecting Nurse, who is not Walker's coach, to monitor his individual minutes without Walker speaking up just isn't realistic. He cannot suspend or fine Walker and if Kemba told Nurse he was good to go, why wouldn't the coach just roll with him? Its kind of a win-win for him and the Raptors.

If this isn't just another manufactured crisis (i.e. it impacts him beyond today), its really on Walker imho. The C's coaching staff can make all the requests they want but only Walker was at the game.
Telling banged-up players they can’t play when they want to is something teams do on a nearly daily basis. It’s almost never the player’s responsibility.

As far as the mechanics of telling Nurse what to do—the Heat seem to have had no trouble managing this with Butler. The NBA isn’t as adversarial as this in general—teams, coaches, agents and players know they have to maintain relationships over time, and usually do a good job of it.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Didn't Jimmy Butler take an allstar spot and not play one year?

I am not sure his allstar usage is really a function of the Heat requesting that his minutes be limited. It may well be that Butler cares little about the actual game itself and more about hanging with his buddies during the weekend.

Look, people are understandably upset about Walker's usage in the allstar game. I prefer to see if it costs him meaningful games before I join them. That said, reasonable minds can still disagree about who deserves the most blame. This in no way means I like Nick Nurse beyond his meme generating abilities.
 

lovegtm

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Didn't Jimmy Butler take an allstar spot and not play one year?

I am not sure his allstar usage is really a function of the Heat requesting that his minutes be limited. It may well be that Butler cares little about the actual game itself and more about hanging with his buddies during the weekend.

Look, people are understandably upset about Walker's usage in the allstar game. I prefer to see if it costs him meaningful games before I join them. That said, reasonable minds can still disagree about who deserves the most blame. This in no way means I like Nick Nurse beyond his meme generating abilities.
Yeah , hopefully the Celtics take a firmer line with Kemba over the rest of the contract. It’s not a hard sell: “hey dude, you’re playing for championships now, and you’re not getting any younger. Let’s be overly cautious and smart about this stuff.”
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He also had a Synvisc injection apparently. That's not a good sign either. He's got something going on there that's a little more than a sore knee. Hopefully, he can get it under control.
Yeah, I don't know how CBS can say that there's nothing "structural". From my experience of other people getting it, Synvisc (Synvisc-One) is given when people have chronic knee problems and stretching or PT stops helping. Of note, the injection isn't a long-term solution as even the FAQs for the drug says it lasts about six months. https://www.synviscone.com/what-is-synvisc-one/synvisc-faqs

Maybe someone else knows this but I had thought someone told me that they could only get a limited number of shots (2 or 3) but I can't find any confirmation of that on the internet.

At any rate, while I'm sure a lot of NBA players get this, Synvisc doesn't address any underlying problem and from what I understand simply delays knee surgery (See, e.g., https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687851/).