Kemba Walker + 2021 First Round Pick to OKC for Al Horford, Moses Brown

Cesar Crespo

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Listen Brown is a nice piece to take a look at and decide if he can be your 14th/15th man (Tacko and Waters aren't comps, they weren't on the roster), and being able to cut him for nothing but the 50K guaranteed as part of the trade is nice. I just think we need to be far more reasonable about his likely role/upside than the "really he's just as good as having the #16 pick" stuff which is kinda silly to me. Nobody on this board would have seriously traded 16 for Brown. He's an intriguing throw-in to make the salary match, and he'll get to compete for the end of the bench with our 2nd rounder and the guys currently deep on the bench in SL and camp.
I doubt his role would be any different than the 16th pick. While the 16th pick has more value, the player that was picked will probably be worse than Brown. The returns on those picks aren't great and were used to defend Ainge's draft history before Nesmith (and Langford) started to play better.

They did it to move on from Kemba, but as a filler, Moses Brown is an interesting add.

Where are people saying his likely role is anything more than "Portland Center" or "Kornet/Wagner." I think one poster compared him to DJ. Most won't even agree he's better than Kornet.
 

lovegtm

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And not to compare Moses to Langford but a 1.7% assist rate from your 7'2 center who will only touch the ball to dunk the ball after an offensive rebound is far less worrisome than a 5.9% assist rate from your 6'4 SG that you want to develop into an adequate PG.

Interestingly enough, when you add in playoff minutes, they've played roughly the same amount of NBA minutes. They are both going into year 3, but it's more like year 2. Mo is on year 2 of a 4 year contract while Romeo is on year 3 of a 4 year contract.

I'm not a Romeo fan because players with his trends tend not to do well, but he doesn't turn 22 until October and has played a total of 808 minutes in 2 years. The sample size is too small to see if there is year to year growth so what trends? He's long, athletic and terrible on offense. Pretty good on D and under contract for 2 more years.

I'm not a Moses Brown fan because he's pretty terrible offensively, but he doesn't turn 22 until October and has played a total of 953 minutes in 2 years. He's long, mobile and has the tools needed to play D. Under contract for 3 more years. His sample size is also too small to see any year to year growth at the NBA level but there was clear improvement from college to the NBA.

I wouldn't be opposed to trading either but I'd be against releasing either one for nothing. Again, not really comparing Langford the player to Brown the player. Just the situations. They are alike.
The situations are extremely different, because a wing who can defend 1-4 is just a completely different level of value from a pure center.

If Brown were also a wing I'd agree with you, but he's not, and that's why he's way more fungible and will have a much harder (not impossible) time sticking and getting a decent 2nd contract.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The situations are extremely different, because a wing who can defend 1-4 is just a completely different level of value from a pure center.

If Brown were also a wing I'd agree with you, but he's not, and that's why he's way more fungible and will have a much harder (not impossible) time sticking and getting a decent 2nd contract.
Yeah, I'm not worried about them sticking or getting a decent 2nd contract. The only thing I care about is if Brown can help the C's for a year or two on his 3 year deal at cheap money.

It's obviously Langford will have an easier time sticking and if he pans out, will get paid a boatload more. That's not really the point. I'm guessing neither are on the team after their rookie deals are up. I just don't see the point in giving up on cost controlled players who have shown some type of skill at the NBA level. If you think you can find a better use of your 15th roster spot... I don't agree. If he's needed as filler to acquire a key player, good bye.
 

HomeRunBaker

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"Wholly Moses!" can also double as the post-game thread to discuss Smart's shot selection
The opportunities are truly endless. Subtopics could include, “Did Danny really retire?” and “How can Brad success with so little experience?”
 

HomeRunBaker

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And Desmond Bane and whoever's picked at 16 anytime he scores a basket.
I’m secretly hoping that OKC drafts a player for another team or stashes a guy so complete confusion can occur.

Edit: Well it’s not a secret anymore since I posted it lol.
 

TripleOT

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Moses Brown can run the floor very well for a seven footer. The few highlights where he wasn’t dunking, he showed off a bit of ball handling and a lefty jump hook. He’s good at reading the ball off the rim and getting to it, with enough maneuverability to slide by guys, or use his long arms to tip it, either into the hoop or to himself.
 

EvilEmpire

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Moses Brown can run the floor very well for a seven footer. The few highlights where he wasn’t dunking, he showed off a bit of ball handling and a lefty jump hook. He’s good at reading the ball off the rim and getting to it, with enough maneuverability to slide by guys, or use his long arms to tip it, either into the hoop or to himself.
That's quite a scouting report for a guy who hasn't played a ton. Do you have a link for it, or is that your assessment from watching a bunch of tape, or what?
 

Cesar Crespo

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That's quite a scouting report for a guy who hasn't played a ton. Do you have a link for it, or is that your assessment from watching a bunch of tape, or what?
It was his assessment of the highlight clips me and benhogan posted, I'm guessing.

It's going to be pretty positive. It's a highlight clip.
 

TripleOT

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That's quite a scouting report for a guy who hasn't played a ton. Do you have a link for it, or is that your assessment from watching a bunch of tape, or what?
I looked at his OKC highlights, and a few of his G League videos. He moves well for a guy that big, and isn’t stiff hipped like so many seven footers.

When we saw him go off against the Cs, he was working in so much space due to defensive breakdowns, it looked like a pre-practice dunk session.

From the video I’ve watched, he has the ability to play over people in traffic, from a standstill, with some explosiveness.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I looked at his OKC highlights, and a few of his G League videos. He moves well for a guy that big, and isn’t stiff hipped like so many seven footers.

When we saw him go off against the Cs, he was working in so much space due to defensive breakdowns, it looked like a pre-practice dunk session.

From the video I’ve watched, he has the ability to play over people in traffic, from a standstill, with some explosiveness.
Key point is about his play in space. At UCLA he was effective, fluid and explosive, when in space in the paint. He struggles a ton in the halfcourt when he was required to use his physicality. He didn’t finish well in traffic or gain position very well. This was the basis for my Loren Woods semi-comp although Woods was a legit offensive player with excellent face-up shooting......but also a guy who looked much better in space than against an aggressive defense.
 

TripleOT

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Key point is about his play in space. At UCLA he was effective, fluid and explosive, when in space in the paint. He struggles a ton in the halfcourt when he was required to use his physicality. He didn’t finish well in traffic or gain position very well. This was the basis for my Loren Woods semi-comp although Woods was a legit offensive player with excellent face-up shooting......but also a guy who looked much better in space than against an aggressive defense.
Converting only 42% of 136 layup attempts is an indicator of his troubles in traffic, but he has had instances where he played strong in congestion. Although he isn’t rail thin at 245, I’d like to see him put on 10-15 pounds of muscle the next two years. Again, it’s going to come down to whether he can defend p/r. I’m obviously higher on him than many on this board.
 

the moops

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When I watch the highlights of him I am not thoroughly impressed. Hot take, I know, but he looks like a dozen other end of the benches bigs
 

Imbricus

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Converting only 42% of 136 layup attempts is an indicator of his troubles in traffic, but he has had instances where he played strong in congestion.
Yeah, that 42% on layup attempts is rather ghastly for a guy who's 7' 2". But you make a good point about how sometimes he has played strong in congestion.

He seems opportunistic around the rim, which is good. Even if he's never going to be a floor spacer, he'll need to develop an interior shot; he can't count on layups and dunks all the time. Developing a sky hook or a short jumper doesn't seem impossible, with a little coaching and practice.

It's weird: I was scanning Twitter posts and they seem split between he was a steal for the Celtics and he was just a garbage throw in. Thunder fans too: Some were like "Damn, why did they trade Brown? That guy's gonna be a stud." while others were "Ha, Boston, he's all yours, you're going to get sick of watching him blow layups."

One thing I think this guarantees: Tacko time is over. I love the guy, but it became painfully obvious this year that he just has too many weaknesses in his game.
 

luckiestman

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When I watch the highlights of him I am not thoroughly impressed. Hot take, I know, but he looks like a dozen other end of the benches bigs
He looks stiff to me but I watched half a highlight video. I only really watch the Cs (regular season) and I missed the game he had the good half against us. I hope he becomes Ralph Sampson for us but he looks like he sucks.
 

Eddie Jurak

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On Simmons podcast yesterday, he said that he had heard that when the pandemic shut the season down, the Celtics gave Kemba a list of exercises to do to strengthen the knee, and Kemba basically blew them off, arriving at the bubble with the knee being as bad as it was when the season was shut down.
 

DJnVa

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When I watch the highlights of him I am not thoroughly impressed. Hot take, I know, but he looks like a dozen other end of the benches bigs
Yeah, that's why they are all end of the bench bigs. If they stood out in some way, they wouldn't be there.
 

Auger34

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On Simmons podcast yesterday, he said that he had heard that when the pandemic shut the season down, the Celtics gave Kemba a list of exercises to do to strengthen the knee, and Kemba basically blew them off, arriving at the bubble with the knee being as bad as it was when the season was shut down.
I heard the exact same thing. I know someone that played golf with Austin Ainge and I was relayed almost the exact same story.
The only thing I can add is that when they were checking in on him, Kemba kept telling the team that he was doing the exercises and feeling better. Then he showed up really out of shape and his knee wasn’t any stronger
 

lovegtm

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I heard the exact same thing. I know someone that played golf with Austin Ainge and I was relayed almost the exact same story.
The only thing I can add is that when they were checking in on him, Kemba kept telling the team that he was doing the exercises and feeling better. Then he showed up really out of shape and his knee wasn’t any stronger
Enjoy OKC buddy
 

benhogan

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I heard the exact same thing. I know someone that played golf with Austin Ainge and I was relayed almost the exact same story.
The only thing I can add is that when they were checking in on him, Kemba kept telling the team that he was doing the exercises and feeling better. Then he showed up really out of shape and his knee wasn’t any stronger
didn't Grant move in with him during that time?

sounds like they were up to Grant things: all-day Catan competitions, Chipotle, and Ben & Jerry midnight freezer raids...
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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didn't Grant move in with him during that time?

sounds like they were up to Grant things: all-day Catan competitions, Chipotle, and Ben & Jerry midnight freezer raids...
Yes, but I don't remember anyone complaining that GW showed up to the bubble out of shape.
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/07/kemba-walker-on-quarantine-roommate-grant-williams-we-got-close-it-was-a-good-time.html

BTW, BRobb put Simmons' comments into an article here: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2021/06/celtics-concerns-with-kemba-walker-started-due-to-lack-of-knee-rehab-ahead-of-nba-bubble-report.html
 

Devizier

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The team should be focusing on sealing leaks and not going off the record to Simmons or whoever. This is just bad management and contributes to the idea that the Celtics are not a good team to play for.
 
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benhogan

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OurF'ingCity

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Brad says the Kemba trade happened to boost their 'financial flexibility.' In other words, Kemba was overpaid and they had to fix it, which is the correct conclusion IMO.
View: https://twitter.com/BosHeraldSports/status/1407063969517473799

Brad Stevens searches for financial flexibility
Couple interesting things of note in that article, though it’s obviously reading between the lines. First, Stevens seems to be implying (as Murphy points out) that he is more focused on bringing in veteran talent as opposed to adding younger players - perhaps not a startling observation given how young the team is, but still interesting.

Second (unless Murphy just didn’t mention it) Stevens makes no mention of Moses Brown when discussing the return for the Kemba trade - it’s all talk about Al. Which doesn’t necessarily mean Stevens doesn’t see Brown as an intriguing piece - I’m sure he does - but it should probably put to rest any suggestion that the Celtics saw Brown himself as being a key part of this trade and being worth giving up the first-round pick in his own right.
 

ifmanis5

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Couple interesting things of note in that article, though it’s obviously reading between the lines. First, Stevens seems to be implying (as Murphy points out) that he is more focused on bringing in veteran talent as opposed to adding younger players - perhaps not a startling observation given how young the team is, but still interesting.

Second (unless Murphy just didn’t mention it) Stevens makes no mention of Moses Brown when discussing the return for the Kemba trade - it’s all talk about Al. Which doesn’t necessarily mean Stevens doesn’t see Brown as an intriguing piece - I’m sure he does - but it should probably put to rest any suggestion that the Celtics saw Brown himself as being a key part of this trade and being worth giving up the first-round pick in his own right.
Agreed with both.
Also, as the ESPN write up confirms, they are building around the Jays and clearly Kemba was not helping that direction.
ESPN
 

Van Everyman

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Second (unless Murphy just didn’t mention it) Stevens makes no mention of Moses Brown when discussing the return for the Kemba trade - it’s all talk about Al. Which doesn’t necessarily mean Stevens doesn’t see Brown as an intriguing piece - I’m sure he does - but it should probably put to rest any suggestion that the Celtics saw Brown himself as being a key part of this trade and being worth giving up the first-round pick in his own right.
He did discuss Brown:

On picking up Moses Brown:

Brown has already been learning from Horford, and he brings to Boston some intriguing talent.

“We like Moses as an upside player. Obviously we saw the best of Moses in our game,” Stevens said, referring to Brown’s 21 point, 23 rebound performance against Boston in March. “he’s a guy who got a bigger taste of the NBA this year. He got a great opportunity and when he did play he put up numbers. He’s a guy we’re excited to learn more about and work with, and see how he fits with our group. The ability to make our wings better is going to be a huge part of the people that will be around them.”

Translation: He’s got a bunch of potential but this team is all about Jayson Tatumand Jaylen Brown and if a player doesn’t gear his game towards making their lives easier, he’s out.

There is a lot of discussion about how good Brown can really be. As I said earlier, when the Thunder wanted to lose, they sat Horford ... but they started Brown. He is young and learning and he had a ton of freedom to make all the mistakes he needed.

That changes a lot in Boston, but so does the quality of his teammates. He’s now the third or fourth-string center, depending on how the rest of the offseason shakes out (I do find it hard to believe the Celtics will carry four centers into the season).



That just becomes a longer discussion without getting into specifics of can guys play together, can you do the double big thing with certain groups, are there guys that pair better together,” Stevens said. “Those are things we’ll have to figure out. That won’t be as much my decision once those times come, once the roster is set. Then I’ll be out of that. Then whoever the coach is can figure out how they want to utilize everybody.”

Brown was good enough for the Thunder to lock up on a cheap deal, but clearly he is a work in progress. We’ll see how much progress he’s made, hopefully, soon as he will likely participate in summer league in a couple of months.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/06/21/brad-stevens-explains-the-kemba-walker-trade
 

JakeRae

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Couple interesting things of note in that article, though it’s obviously reading between the lines. First, Stevens seems to be implying (as Murphy points out) that he is more focused on bringing in veteran talent as opposed to adding younger players - perhaps not a startling observation given how young the team is, but still interesting.

Second (unless Murphy just didn’t mention it) Stevens makes no mention of Moses Brown when discussing the return for the Kemba trade - it’s all talk about Al. Which doesn’t necessarily mean Stevens doesn’t see Brown as an intriguing piece - I’m sure he does - but it should probably put to rest any suggestion that the Celtics saw Brown himself as being a key part of this trade and being worth giving up the first-round pick in his own right.
I don’t disagree with the takeaway that Brown for the 16 pick wasn’t the analysis. If anything, I think the right take is that Brown bridges the value gap between 16 and the Kemba/Horford swap while also solving for the cap. (I say this because I think 16 was a bit steep as a price for this trade but think that there’s a reasonable argument Brown is worth a late first, which makes the net value closer to a late first.)

The second thing I’d note is that Brown adds potential financial flexibility by making it possible to trade Tristan into a FA loser’s cap space this offseason (I think there’s potential to pick up a second in a swap like this although also potential to give up one). Brown isn’t a rotation player, but he’s useful deep depth and if we also keep Kornet, we probably have enough depth that we don’t need to carry a $10 million big who, when the team is healthy, shouldn’t see the court and may not be happy about that. We could obviously also keep Tristan as potential salary ballast mid-season, or trade him for another expiring this offseason who is a better fit for our roster and could still serve that role.

The basic point is that I don’t see Tristan as part of this team going forward because he’s our third best center and is paid too much and probably has too big an ego (not undeservedly) for that role.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Ah, thanks.

I don’t disagree with the takeaway that Brown for the 16 pick wasn’t the analysis. If anything, I think the right take is that Brown bridges the value gap between 16 and the Kemba/Horford swap while also solving for the cap. (I say this because I think 16 was a bit steep as a price for this trade but think that there’s a reasonable argument Brown is worth a late first, which makes the net value closer to a late first.)

The second thing I’d note is that Brown adds potential financial flexibility by making it possible to trade Tristan into a FA loser’s cap space this offseason (I think there’s potential to pick up a second in a swap like this although also potential to give up one). Brown isn’t a rotation player, but he’s useful deep depth and if we also keep Kornet, we probably have enough depth that we don’t need to carry a $10 million big who, when the team is healthy, shouldn’t see the court and may not be happy about that. We could obviously also keep Tristan as potential salary ballast mid-season, or trade him for another expiring this offseason who is a better fit for our roster and could still serve that role.

The basic point is that I don’t see Tristan as part of this team going forward because he’s our third best center and is paid too much and probably has too big an ego (not undeservedly) for that role.
Agreed, TT needs to go and I have to imagine Brad knows that too.
 

benhogan

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Ah, thanks.



Agreed, TT needs to go and I have to imagine Brad knows that too.
once TT is gone Brad will have undone Danny's bad work the last 2 off-seasons (Teague, Kemba, TT).

resign Fournier, TL
figure out Smart

kick the tires on: Larry Nance Jr, Kyle Andersen, Delon Wright, Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, Satoransky, Sterling Brown, C. Wood, Derrick White
 

luckiestman

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It would be worth Kemba going to the Lakers just so I could watch cutaways of LBJs face when he looks at Kemba Playing D
 

radsoxfan

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It would be worth Kemba going to the Lakers just so I could watch cutaways of LBJs face when he looks at Kemba Playing D
Danny stuck Lebron with a broken down arthritic IT.

Would be funny if Brad indirectly did the same with Kemba.
 

lovegtm

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I doubt Kemba ever sets foot in OKC. Maybe Lakers for Kuzma & KCP?
What asset is Presti attaching to get this done? It's still an awful contract that the Celtics couldn't find takers for without paying (I understand the timing issues).

I'm sure Presti wants to flip Kemba in this manner, but it will probably require a bit of on-court value pumping.
 

radsoxfan

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What asset is Presti attaching to get this done? It's still an awful contract that the Celtics couldn't find takers for without paying (I understand the timing issues).

I'm sure Presti wants to flip Kemba in this manner, but it will probably require a bit of on-court value pumping.

Also just requires time. A 2.5 year bad contract like Horford (3 year with partial guarantee) looks a lot better when its a 1.5 year bad contract. A 2 year bad contract looks a lot better when it's a 1 year bad contract.

If you aren't going to be competitive anyway, it's easy enough to wait it out. On court value pumping is nice also, but primarily they can just wait it out and eventually the contract can be flipped for something else while gaining another asset.

They got a mid 1st round pick for Horford not because he was a superstar for OKC, but because they just waited a year and took on a contract thats even worse.
 

lovegtm

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Also just requires time. A 2.5 year bad contract like Horford (3 year with partial guarantee) looks a lot better when its a 1.5 year bad contract. A 2 year bad contract looks a lot better when it's a 1 year bad contract.

If you aren't going to be competitive anyway, it's easy enough to wait it out. On court value pumping is nice also, but primarily they can just wait it out and eventually the contract can be flipped for something else while gaining another asset.

They got a mid 1st round pick for Horford not because he was a superstar for OKC, but because they just waited a year and took on a contract thats even worse.
Totally, and the Celtics would have waited out the contract the same way, had they been forced to keep Kemba.

Just was pointing out that, like Horford, he's likely to see oncourt OKC time for both pumping and waiting.
 

Devizier

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Weird, Kuzma is a PPP for the rest of June, but even after, his extension is like 13M/year. Him plus KCP gets you to 25M, Kemba is now like 36M.