Kemba Walker + 2021 First Round Pick to OKC for Al Horford, Moses Brown

nattysez

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Perhaps this has been said but Moses Brown is Robert Williams - No?
Maybe Robert Williams two years ago. He's pretty raw. But having some vets around him rather than a bunch of first- and second-year players will help.
 

Marbleheader

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I like Al coming back. I know he's not the same player, but he's a respected vet that was here when the Jays came up and can provide leadership and guidance. I'm fine with the pick going, but it would have been interesting to see what PBS did there. All in all, when you dump a bad contract you have to take on some bad money. The only thing I wonder is if Kemba would have opted out after this season.
 

Senator Donut

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I love this trade. Kevin O’Connor and perhaps others suggested using the Hayward traded player exception to acquire Horford while keeping Walker and essentially roll it over the TPE for another off-season. To be able to acquire Horford’s moveable salary slot and offload Walker in the same transaction is an easy win.
 

Ale Xander

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I will admit I was surprised it only cost 1 first round pick to get rid of Walker, I expected it would be more expensive than that, especially this early on. Add in they get an interesting bench guy in return

Good deal for Stevens.

good deal for OKC as well of course, because Walker is irrelevant to them, as is the money for the next 2 years, so worth it in order to take a swing on the highest upside guy available at 16
Walker is relevant to them in terms of marketing/PR as well as ticket sales, IMHO. But yeah, they're just stockpiling picks/youngins with potential
 

OurF'ingCity

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Initial thought was "oh God Brad is Doc Rivers and going after players that used to play for him or played well against him once." Really hoping that doesn't turn out to be the case. Probably an overreaction on my part.
Well, Stevens also just traded away a player that used to play for him, much more recently, so I'm not sure I really share your concern. If there were other, better options and Brad chose Al over those then I'd have some concern, but there is zero evidence of that (yet, anyway).
 

reggiecleveland

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We always call him Jaylen :)
Really? Moses is a great name.
I fully intend to type MOSES! on every 2nd chance score this kid gets.
I also call dibs if he ever has 4 points, 4 rebounds, in 4 minutes.

EDIT
I loved Al's game. I hope he has something left and can still switch. The shooting will be great for the transition game. Opposing forwards never had to do anything but protect the rim last year in transition. There will be some Tatum dunks next year because Al's guy was step or two higher in transition than last year.
 

Ale Xander

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Really? Moses is a great name.
I fully intend to type MOSES! on every 2nd chance score this kid gets.
I also call dibs if he ever has 4 points, 4 rebounds, in 4 minutes.
Here too

Hopefully he can help the Celtics find the promised land prior to 2061
 

PedroKsBambino

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Who is in second place on all time NBA players named Moses list right now---is he alread there?
 

lovegtm

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The best thing about this deal cap wise is that Horford's expiring is nice for salary matching. You send it out as 26.5M, but the team getting him back can cut him for $14.5M
So if you're doing a trade for a max type player next offseason, Horford is a better expiring match than a guaranteed one. It's a benefit but not a huge one.


Not really, no. He's much worse than TL was year 2 at everything other than rebounding. Way worse finisher, way worse passer, way worse defending space, worse at the rim defending.
Edit- TL was always a minutes limited guy, but his good minutes were amazing and he had tantalizing across the board skills, basically everything but shooting. Brown is an energy rebounder who hasn't really shown anything on offense, and is more inconsistent on D than TL with a lower ceiling
This feels like revisionist history wrt TL. He flashed stuff, but people's opinion of him skyrocketed in the middle of year 3. He was seen as pretty inconsistent with a ton of flaws on D despite his obvious upside.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Perhaps this has been said but Moses Brown is Robert Williams - No?
I think the better way to think about Moses is that he is basically younger, cheaper Tristan Thompson. They had remarkably similar stat lines last season in roughly the same amount of MPG.
 

Cellar-Door

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This feels like revisionist history wrt TL. He flashed stuff, but people's opinion of him skyrocketed in the middle of year 3. He was seen as pretty inconsistent with a ton of flaws on D despite his obvious upside.
He was wildly inconsistent on both ends... but his production was way better than Brown and the flashes in a number of areas were there. He had an AST% over 10 (Brown is under 2), he had really efficient scoring at the rim numbers, his STL% and BLK% were encouraging. The underlying stats on him were very good.
TL was a massive boom bust guy who had consistency issues. Brown hasn't shown nearly that ceiling or skillset. He's much more a "this guy does 1 thing well and tries hard, maybe we can teach him the rest" player. TL was a "can he put all these things together" player.

Brown could be a good player, but it will defintiely not be a TL style well rounded player. He'd be a great rebounder who can defend and dunk. That has value if he can get there. TL has more switching capability on D and is a good passer on offense which changes what you can do with him to a lot more situations.
 

BringBackMo

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If you take out the height, we already have an athletic center who can rebound, block shots and run the floor. And he was drafted at #27. And much better than Moses

There are 3 aspects of the deal

2nd for 2nd = draw basically slight win since we should be better than OKC for a while.
Kemba for Horford = huge win
16 for Moses = gain some floor, lose considerable ceiling
Two players like that are definitely better than one.
 

mcpickl

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I like this for Boston.

Stapling the 16th pick to flip from Kembas bad contract to Horfords less bad contract would be a bit rich, but getting Moses Brown as at least a young, super cheap player who can at minimum be your third string center and some upside to dream on adds a bit of value(I agree with those valuing him as a high 2nd round pick). Flipping a 2025 2nd for a 2023 2nd adds a tiny bit of value too since the pick is earlier, and a tiny bit more if it's OKC 2nd or if Boston gets a choice of 2nds(OKC has three 2nds in 2023, haven't seen a report which pick it is)

I like the bit of extra flexibility it gives them here as well. I'm guessing they move Thompson, or Horford since I can't imagine they'll both be here. Let's say it's Thompson. If they can move him without taking back much money, they may be able to open up the non-taxpayer MLE depending on other moves. That would give them an avenue to sign another decent wing if Fournier wants too much money and they move on from him.

Fit-wise, while it's waaaay too early, I would probably like a closing lineup of Smart-Brown-Tatum-X-Center over Kemba-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Center. That will surely be a better defensive lineup as long as the 5th guy isn't a different tiny defensively challenged guard. Even if it's Fournier, he's probably just a bad defensively as Kemba, but since he's not tiny he at least wouldn't be posted relentlessly. And if it's an actual good defender, maybe Romeo or an acquisition, that can be a lockdown defensive lineup that can still score with Brown/Tatum.

Again way too early, but I'm excited about the possibilities.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aside from anything else....

I love Al Horford, he was one of my favorite recent Celtics. I'm looking forward to seeing him play this year if we keep him. He's probably lost a step, but having a big who can stretch and pass and a guy who knows what he's doing is going to be a boon for those bench units (or the starters). One of the big issues last year was we needed Kemba because he's the only vet who knew how to run offense. Having Horford out there as a real option to get the ball, set the offense and either score or make passes to the right man will go a long way.
 

bowiac

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Moses Brown has value, but in a Ivica Zubac upside sense. Robert Williams had real upside on the offensive side as a passer coming out of the draft. It's what made him pretty promising off the bat.
 

benhogan

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16 for Moses = gain some floor, lose considerable ceiling
21yr old Moses Brown 3yrs @ $5.5MM going forward

Funny enough Brown had similar numbers to 2020 #16 pick 20yr old Isaiah Stewart (3yrs @ $12MM next 3 seasons). Stewarts rookie year was pretty much seen as a success.

Brown seemed pretty athletic, 3rd string Centers on the cheap in the meantime are fine. Set screens, PnR, play high-energy defense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownmo01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stewais01.html#all_contract
 

mcpickl

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The best thing about this deal cap wise is that Horford's expiring is nice for salary matching. You send it out as 26.5M, but the team getting him back can cut him for $14.5M
So if you're doing a trade for a max type player next offseason, Horford is a better expiring match than a guaranteed one. It's a benefit but not a huge one.
They changed this rule.

A guy going out only counts as the guaranteed portion of his salary.

If they did that next offseason he'd only count as 14.5M going out.

They could send him out as 26.5M, but they'd have to guarantee it first.

But, still more moveable than Kemba.
 

lovegtm

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He's Robert Williams, but 6 inches taller. Having athletic length as an option vs. Embiid or Giannis is worth the flyer.
His standing reach is shorter than TL's.

We need a moratorium on anyone ever mentioning TL's height again. He's a wingspan/standing reach freak among freaks.
 

Cellar-Door

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They changed this rule.

A guy going out only counts as the guaranteed portion of his salary.

If they did that next offseason he'd only count as 14.5M going out.

They could send him out as 26.5M, but they'd have to guarantee it first.

But, still more moveable than Kemba.
Missed that change. Makes it less attractive, but yeah even so a 14.5M is a useful salary, and a 26.5M expiring if picked up is easier to package than Kemba's deal.

Saw that. I feel pretty confident that is not the plan. They'd have to let Smart, TL and Fournier walk for nothing, decline the options of Nesmith, Pritchard, Romeo, etc. for no return.

It makes way more sense to stay over the cap and manuever to a spot under the tax where you can S&T
 

PedroKsBambino

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Cellar-Door

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This was my instinct and why I asked about it earlier----lots of things can change before them but the possibility of a max slot wtih Tatum and Brown in place is a pretty interesting thing.

Oh, it does line up to Beal no?

Not to say they plan to "tank" for year to do this, but part of the interesting optionality.
It wouldn't be enough for Beal's max, he'd have to take a paycut.
Edit- A big one, projected 1st year of a Beal max would be 41.3M, so he'd be giving up $35M ish over the full deal (assuming 4 years, more like 45M if he got 5 years)
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yes, but it gets close. Again, not predicting that is the plan but noting the optionality created.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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He's Robert Williams, but 6 inches taller. Having athletic length as an option vs. Embiid or Giannis is worth the flyer.
He's 6 fouls who can block a few shots, make a few dunks, and grab some boards. TL is a much more complete player as things stand now, and he's obviously still pretty raw.
 

lexrageorge

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Seems like a win-win where both teams gave up a little to get what they really needed. Brad knew first hand what it was like to manage Kemba’s workload, and Walker missed time in the playoffs anyway. Al is a huge upgrade over the Theis/TT rotation of last season, assuming he is not traded.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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They changed this rule.

A guy going out only counts as the guaranteed portion of his salary.

If they did that next offseason he'd only count as 14.5M going out.

They could send him out as 26.5M, but they'd have to guarantee it first.

But, still more moveable than Kemba.
If he’s traded at the deadline, I believe the prorated amount + the $14.5 mil would be less than the $26.5 mil guaranteed final year would be, so that’s an option as well (though a big deadline deal is unlikely).
 

nighthob

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The best thing about this deal cap wise is that Horford's expiring is nice for salary matching. You send it out as 26.5M, but the team getting him back can cut him for $14.5M
So if you're doing a trade for a max type player next offseason, Horford is a better expiring match than a guaranteed one. It's a benefit but not a huge one.
The rule is that players are only worth their guaranteed salary now, so next offseason he’s less than ideal as trade bait due to the lower salary and less attractive at the higher one (for the receiving team) unless you’re stapling a lot of talent to him. On the other hand, at next year’s trade deadline that contract’s pure gold. Especially if Jayson does his job and convinces Beal to force his way to Boston…
 

reggiecleveland

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Moses Brown has value, but in a Ivica Zubac upside sense. Robert Williams had real upside on the offensive side as a passer coming out of the draft. It's what made him pretty promising off the bat.
Robert Williams had interest because he was/is an astronaut. He literally was jumping and reaching heights less than 10 guys, and maybe nobody else had ever reached. That he has a space related nickname is excellent. His skill potential was enticing no doubt. Concerns about sustainability of him surviving re-entry have proven to be valid.

The adventurer in me wants to see a 2-3 zone with Al TL on wings and Moses/Tacko in the middle
 

lovegtm

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The rule is that players are only worth their guaranteed salary now, so next offseason he’s less than ideal as trade bait due to the lower salary and less attractive at the higher one (for the receiving team) unless you’re stapling a lot of talent to him. On the other hand, at next year’s trade deadline that contract’s pure gold. Especially if Jayson does his job and convinces Beal to force his way to Boston…
Forcing to Boston looks a lot more appealing now that the dead weight is getting cleared.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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If you take out the height, we already have an athletic center who can rebound, block shots and run the floor. And he was drafted at #27. And much better than Moses

There are 3 aspects of the deal

2nd for 2nd = draw basically slight win since we should be better than OKC for a while.
Kemba for Horford = huge win
16 for Moses = gain some floor, lose considerable ceiling
I'm not sure what your point is. I realize there are more aspects of the deal that I didn't break down. I even said to ignore Kemba for Al (because I thought we could all agree it's a win for the C's). Is there a problem with having 2 athletic centers who can rebound, block shots and run the floor?

All I was trying to say is I don't think you're finding an athletic center like this at #16 in the draft, especially one ready to be a useful bench piece. Maybe I'm wrong. Is there someone I'm missing?

This also gives them additional flexibility to trade TT and insurance if RW gets injured or doesn't sign long term. Maybe that type of player doesn't get you going, but I'm happy they were able to get him in the deal.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The rule is that players are only worth their guaranteed salary now, so next offseason he’s less than ideal as trade bait due to the lower salary and less attractive at the higher one (for the receiving team) unless you’re stapling a lot of talent to him. On the other hand, at next year’s trade deadline that contract’s pure gold. Especially if Jayson does his job and convinces Beal to force his way to Boston…
This to me is part of the optionality which is valuable in this deal. Celtics do not have a lot of assets to attach to win the bidding in such a trade unless Nesmith/Romeo step forward in first couple of months next year. But they do have potential to send unprotected picks, and they can make a salary match. Ultimately, it is likely only if Beal says he wants Boston there's anything there. Which I do not expect---but is better facilitated by this than with Kemba here.
 

Jimbodandy

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Aside from anything else....

I love Al Horford, he was one of my favorite recent Celtics. I'm looking forward to seeing him play this year if we keep him. He's probably lost a step, but having a big who can stretch and pass and a guy who knows what he's doing is going to be a boon for those bench units (or the starters). One of the big issues last year was we needed Kemba because he's the only vet who knew how to run offense. Having Horford out there as a real option to get the ball, set the offense and either score or make passes to the right man will go a long way.
This is a great point. We saw how the offensive flow died too often this year. Haywood provided some of that in the past, and NG knows how to make good decisions on that end (hope he can be retained). Al definitely provides brains and facilitation at both ends. And unlike TL, you have to respect his shot.
 

cardiacs

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wow. I fucking love this!!!!

edit - sorry for the lack of content but I was in meetings all morning and am probably the last person to find this out.

Love what Horford brings to this team. Some of the best flow of the last few years has the offense running through Horford in the middle. Love how he stabilizes the psyche of the team as well.

Love. this.
 

Jimbodandy

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21yr old Moses Brown 3yrs @ $5.5MM going forward

Funny enough Brown had similar numbers to 2020 #16 pick 20yr old Isaiah Stewart (3yrs @ $12MM next 3 seasons). Stewarts rookie year was pretty much seen as a success.

Brown seemed pretty athletic, 3rd string Centers on the cheap in the meantime are fine. Set screens, PnR, play high-energy defense.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownmo01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stewais01.html#all_contract
I liked Stewart coming out, and he just won rookie 2nd team IIRC. If Moses gives us that, it's useful.
 

Ale Xander

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I'm not sure what your point is. I realize there are more aspects of the deal that I didn't break down. I even said to ignore Kemba for Al (because I thought we could all agree it's a win for the C's). Is there a problem with having 2 athletic centers who can rebound, block shots and run the floor?

All I was trying to say is I don't think you're finding an athletic center like this at #16 in the draft, especially one ready to be a useful bench piece. Maybe I'm wrong. Is there someone I'm missing?

This also gives them additional flexibility to trade TT and insurance if RW gets injured or doesn't sign long term. Maybe that type of player doesn't get you going, but I'm happy they were able to get him in the deal.
Yes I think you're wrong. I think you can do better than Moses at #16. In fact, you can find someone like Moses as an UDFA sometimes.

There's also a finite limit to how many players you can have on a roster or on the floor at the same time.

All that said, I don't hate the trade at all overall.

I just wouldn't have traded 16 for Moses in a vacuum, and obviously this was far from a vacuum. Both in a micro and macro sense.
 

JM3

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I was content with the trade even before realizing Moses was attached to it.

Another big part of why Moses wasn't drafted was almost assuredly the fact that he was a 35% free throw shooter in college, which would render him basically unplayable. He improved to 62% last year. Small sample size, but if he can do that or better, than yes, he is usable 2nd or 3rd string big, & as mentioned by many, is more of the TT mold than the TL mold, but he's also quite different than TT in a few ways.

Moses shot 22% from outside 3 feet last year, so he's not exactly spacing the floor (compared to TT 47% from 3 to 10 feet), but he's finishing at the rim in a very efficient manner (77% inside 3 feet compared to 47% for TT), mostly by dunking. Moses had a dunk every 12 minutes last season compared to a dunk every 50 minutes for TT.

Moses also had twice the blocks & steals per 36 as TT (& 1/4 the assists).

So yeah, if they move on from TT & go forward with an Al/TL/Moses trio taking most of the minutes, that seems like a fine result.

Trading Moses for the 16th pick straight up would be awful, though. 30-35 seems about ok.

Not too worried about PG minutes when you have Tatum/Jaylen/Al/Smart all capable of creation & Fournier capable of usually not directly handing the ball to the other team if he comes back. & being truly switchable across all 5 most of the time will be really fun.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Agree that Fournier is the 'tell' on their thinking---is this about resetting roster for next year or creating a gap year before a 2022 move(s).

Any change Sacto would bite on a TT for Delon Wright swap? Thats a nice roster fit both ways, but Wright seems like more of an asset and Celts don't have much else to add in.