KAT to Knicks for Randle, DiVincenzo, 1st

[HomeRunBaker]

First significant NBA trade in awhile this is fun. Like most deals the talent swap is usually pretty clear as this is a slam dunk for the Knicks in that regard but it will be how the players fit with their new teams that makes these interesting. For those cap nerds out there, and that is a compliment, was this a deal from Minnesota's perspective that was financially motivated by the second apron?

The Knicks obv get the best player in the deal but how he responds to NY and how the NY fans respond to him will go a long way in determining how this works for Towns and the Knicks. It is also quite a big culture change to that rotation and locker room. For those questioning if the Knicks are better off now that they now have defensive concerns at the 1 AND 5 keep in mind that they just played Precious Achiuwa 28 min at the 5 in a Game 7….stop, full stop. I’m sure they’d have preferred Prime KG but to have a chance at the next step you must upgrade your talent level with what’s available. The Knicks did just that.

The Wolves did get kinda lucky in that the salary filler to make this work is actually a real good player in DiVincenzo. It doesn’t always work out that way. This seems like the first of a big shift in how this Wolves frontcourt is structured over the next few years as I could see them without both Randle and Gobert in 2-3 years. They better not lose Edwards if he feels they are going cheap on him or this franchise will nose dive in a hurry.

 

[mauf]

You would think MIN fans woyld have some faith in Connelly by now.

Randle is eligible for a 4/$181M extension.
View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10026371-knicks-t-wolves-updated-rosters-salary-cap-after-karl-anthony-towns-trade
. I wonder if MIN offers it (I think they have to) and I wonder if Randle would take it (not many teams with cap room next year).

I continually underestimate how much NBA players will get paid, but this blows my mind. Who has $35-40M-ish in cap space and decides to use it to sign Julius Randle for his age 31-34 seasons?

I would think Randle’s market won’t materialize and he’ll re-up with the Wolves for a tick more than the MLE, but this is a very different deal if all the Wolves got is a one-year rental on Randle, plus DiVincenzo and a pick that’s likely to amount to nothing. That’s a straight-up salary dump.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

My first reaction: I figured the Wolves must've gotten a couple of first-round picks thrown in. Just one heavily protected first rounder? Seems like a less-than-optimal return.

MIN was going to pay over $100M in luxury taxes this year with KAT's extension and ANT and Gobert. https://www.canishoopus.com/24100977/timberwolves-roster-salaries-cap-space-draft-picks.

Gobert is basically untradeable. ANT was the cornerstone. Everyone knew that KAT was going to have to go but frankly, there aren't a lot of matches. Randle was one. Ingram may have been another. (I believe that the cap rules prevented a Butler trade since their salaries didn't exactly match.) I'm sure NYK and MIN have discussed parameters in the past.

MIN saves $26.5M in salary and tax payments. They still have to sign Naz Reid. The issue with the new CBA is that it's hard just to dump players any more so reducing salary generally is a step-down process - trade big salary for smaller salary; rinse and repeat.

i'm sure NYK figured they are getting the best player in the deal but KAT has a difgicult contract to move and they are something like $1M under 2nd apron so it looks like this is the team they are going to roll with for the next few years.

Everyone who has bets on OKC winning the West should be happy too.

 

[jose melendez]

I think you absolutely have to do this trade if you're the Knicks. It gives you an outside shot at a ring. That said, there's a real risk this could result in the team being worse. KAT as he has been is not going to do well in NYC--he's really going to have to toughen up and get his head on straight for this to work.

 

[brendan f]

It's a huge win for the Knicks. Their center position was a disaster especially with Robinson hurt and Randle didn't fit anywhere for them. Now they have a legit center (who is much better than Randle) and spacing that makes sense on the court.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I continually underestimate how much NBA players will get paid, but this blows my mind. Who has $35-40M-ish in cap space and decides to use it to sign Julius Randle for his age 31-34 seasons?

I would think Randle’s market won’t materialize and he’ll re-up with the Wolves for a tick more than the MLE, but this is a very different deal if all the Wolves got is a one-year rental on Randle, plus DiVincenzo and a pick that’s likely to amount to nothing. That’s a straight-up salary dump.

Looks like only BRK, HOU, WAS, and SAS will have significant cap space. UT may too; I'm not sure where they are after Lauri's new deal. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1e2lndc/smith_very_early_2025_nba_cap_space_projections_1/

Issue for MIN is that Randle is actually a very good player. Certainly paying an all-star type player $30M is typically a good contract (Cs have 3 of them). Maybe MIN gambles and let's him decide whether or not to exercise his player option but turning KAT into one year of Randle and DD seems like a significant loss of asset value.

 

[RorschachsMask]

From the Celtics perspective, while Towns is a much better player than Randle, especially offensively, Tatum has given him a lot of trouble on that end for years. KAT is 6-19 with JT as his primary defender over the last few years.

The Celtics are very capable of using Tatum at the 5 against them.

 

[OCST]

I’m surprised so many Knicks fans like this. KAT is one of my least favorite players, and he’d drive me completely nuts as a fan. He and Thibs seems like a disaster, as KAT seems like the antithesis of this current Knicks ethos.

I’m not a Knicks fan but I’m Knicks-curious, living as I do in NYC. I agree. Loss of DD seems like a dent in the teams spirit and cohesion too- this was the most beloved team I’ve seen in the city in a long time. Obviously you have to break up your roster to make a big trade but last seasons Knicks had the X factor & it seems like they’ve lost that loving feeling.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

It's a huge win for the Knicks. Their center position was a disaster especially with Robinson hurt and Randle didn't fit anywhere for them. Now they have a legit center (who is much better than Randle) and spacing that makes sense on the court.

I dunno. Jrue Holiday was a huge win. This deal isn't on that level. A good portion of NYK's success last year was their rebounding and KAT doesn't do that. Also, as mentioned upthread, his defense and contract make me wonder if this was the best use of Randle as an asset or whether NYK pulled the trigger because they didn't want to play Sims at the 5 for significant minutes.

Plus, if this was such a home run, I would have thought NYK could have done this a couple of months ago.

It all depends on fit/chemistry. Will be fascinating to see how it does or does not come together.

 

[Montana Fan]

Edit: I do think it is cool that he's from Jersey and was a Knicks fan growing up.

What does that say about his smarts though?

PS - I like the trade and I’m a Randle fan. KAT is going to be a better fit with better health. With Randle and DD it looks to me like Minny is going full run and gun.

 

[InstaFace]

I like this on net for the Knicks. Randle was a good 3 point shooter but KAT is an elite one, 40% career, and there are very few players who can play center (even a little) and shoot like that. He's a better shooter than Porzingis, even if he doesn't have the 30-foot range. This lets them play 5-out on offense, and give up less size on defense when Robinson isn't out there.

Moreover, this basically solves their center depth issues, because KAT can play both 4 and 5 and Randle couldn't, not really. Randle was a more agile defender against wings like the Jays, but what KAT gives up in (say) transition D, he makes up for with strength underneath and decent perimeter instincts, and it's not like Randle was an exceptional help defender.

What they'll do about a KAT extension is tomorrow's problem. Right now they're a better team.

Not sure I get it from the Minnesota perspective. They're worse at the 4 now, and if they don't extend or re-sign Randle, they've basically done a salary dump despite having a contending roster with a still-improving superstar.

 

[bosockboy]

Knicks depth is rough.

Robinson
McBride
Precious
Payne

Major injuries will do them in.

 

[lovegtm]

Towns is an incredibly gifted player offensively. He’s not a movement shooter like DDV, but is arguably the best shooting big ever. He’s also a very good passer, which helps replace what Hartenstein brought as a short roll guy.

On defense, he’s much better at the 5 than the 4, though he’s not especially good at the 5. The issue is teams will force him onto the perimeter with switches, and he’s just dreadful when it comes to that. Watch that crazy Wolves/Celtics game in Boston, Tatum kept forcing Towns into him, and absolutely destroyed him over and over.

I think it’s a win for the Knicks, but the only way it dramatically changes their ceiling is if KAT consistently becomes a player that we’ve only seen in flashes.

Yup. His offense is good; defense will be fine in the regular season.

In the playoffs, the Celtics are uniquely well suited to cook him on the perimeter, because there's nowhere he can hide. Not every EC team is like this, but the good ones are. Hard for me to see how the Knicks are true contenders absent a lot of opponent injuries.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Lonnie Walker wouldn't be a bad fit for Knicks right now, would he? If Knicks do want to backfill shooting a bit, Doug McDermott is still out there. A bit late on Cedi Osman, though.

Others who I believe are still out there---old friend Oshae; Markelle Fultz - doesn't fill the shooting void, but kinda intersting for them now?; Reggie Bullock; probably toast TJ Warren.

 

[benhogan]

From the Celtics perspective, while Towns is a much better player than Randle, especially offensively, Tatum has given him a lot of trouble on that end for years. KAT is 6-19 with JT as his primary defender over the last few years.

The Celtics are very capable of using Tatum at the 5 against them.

100%

BUT it was explained to me yesterday that Tatum shouldn't be pencil'd into the Center position in high-leverage situations like a playoff series against the Knicks

 

[the moops]

Lonnie Walker wouldn't be a bad fit for Knicks right now, would he? If Knicks do want to backfill shooting a bit, Doug McDermott is still out there. A bit late on Cedi Osman, though.

Others who I believe are still out there---old friend Oshae; Markelle Fultz - doesn't fill the shooting void, but kinda intersting for them now?; Reggie Bullock; probably toast TJ Warren.

A few others.
Robert Covington, Smith Jr, Gallinari

 

[benhogan]

As bad as KAT was against Dallas he was great against Denver. He was the key defender wearing down Jokic. Also made some huge shots in that series.

He is a premier talent, given up for Donte Devincenzo and a 2nd Rounder. They won't give Randle big money.

KAT has his problems and does dumb shit, I know, but Gobert is overrated statistically and gets played off the court in the biggest games. I would have traded him and kept KAT.

KAT can and did get better last year. Gobert is only going downhill at this point.

KAT makes threes. You think the rest of that team will be happy watching Randle brick threes? No way.

Bad vibes trade too. Connolly got too clever by half here.

Agreed. It's doubling down on the Rudy blunder trade.

Hopefully, Anthony Edwards can continue to grow his game and preserve Connelly's rep

 

[RorschachsMask]

Hot take, they know Ant isn’t ready yet. Which is fine, he’s too young IMO, is a couple of seasons of reading coverages away.

View: https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1840032141838565795

 

[tims4wins]

Hot take, they know Ant isn’t ready yet. Which is fine, he’s too young IMO. He’s a couple of seasons of reading coverages away.

View: https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1840032141838565795

Well based on history, he's still ~3 years away.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Knicks depth is rough.

Robinson
McBride
Precious
Payne

Major injuries will do them in.

And Robinson will not be back until December or January.

 

[RorschachsMask]

Well based on history, he's still ~3 years away.

People are shitting on the Wolves, and I get their fans feeling a bit annoyed, but saving money now is the smart move long term.

 

[InstaFace]

The fact that Edwards’ name has been mentioned once in this thread and not at all in KOC’s posts says everything I need to know about The Next MJ and what this trade means for him.

I have no idea what this even means. Edwards plays a different position from everyone involved here (and DiVincenzo isn't taking his minutes). Why would he factor into an evaluation of the trade? Except insofar as Minnesota bet on Edwards over KAT as their primary scoring threat. Just a strange, passive-aggressive post.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

100%

BUT it was explained to me yesterday that Tatum shouldn't be pencil'd into the Center position in high-leverage situations like a playoff series against the Knicks

As many have noted, and several of us advocated for in the playoffs, Tatum at 5 makes sense in some specific matchups. But I think most of us also feel it's unlikely to be a primary lineup option.

 

[InstaFace]

I’m not a Knicks fan but I’m Knicks-curious, living as I do in NYC. I agree. Loss of DD seems like a dent in the teams spirit and cohesion too- this was the most beloved team I’ve seen in the city in a long time. Obviously you have to break up your roster to make a big trade but last seasons Knicks had the X factor & it seems like they’ve lost that loving feeling.

I think Brunson and Hart were a much bigger part of that esprit de corps than Randle, and DiVincenzo was a lot more fungible than the others. He's a plus value at his contract but I think most Knicks fans would be happy with the talent upgrade. Gonna be a lot more Towns jerseys sold than DDV or Randle would've sold, I think.

 

[RedOctober3829]

View: https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1840039630193729748

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

This makes the Knicks tougher- they are better offensively and lost little on D with this trade - and Thibs will find ways to minimize KAT from being exposed. Injuries can happen and maybe the fit isn't perfect but its a pure talent upgrade for NY.

 

[benhogan]

As many have noted, and several of us advocated for in the playoffs, Tatum at 5 makes sense in some specific matchups. But I think most of us also feel it's unlikely to be a primary lineup option.

Tatum at the 5 will NEVER be a primary option during the regular season.

BUT Tatum is already and will develop further into a high-leverage 5 in the playoffs, especially against KAT/Knicks,
Along with the Heat, Cavs, Indiana, and a bunch of WC teams.

Tatum will play very little Center minutes during the regular season since there is so much wear-n-tear of playing the 5.

BUT come playoffs Joe will unleash Point Center Tatum.

Positional versatility is one way Brad can address the Center conundrum/CBA/tax that was discussed yesterday.

We'd all like the Celtics to set tax penalty records, but PBS has several levers he can pull if ownership balks at a $500M payroll where this team can compete for Championships. Unfortunately, that probably means they won't post the 3rd greatest Net Rtg in NBA history in future seasons.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I think Brunson and Hart were a much bigger part of that esprit de corps than Randle, and DiVincenzo was a lot more fungible than the others. He's a plus value at his contract but I think most Knicks fans would be happy with the talent upgrade. Gonna be a lot more Towns jerseys sold than DDV or Randle would've sold, I think.

You're probably correct that Hart and Brunson set the tone, but NYK is going to miss DD's gravity - sort of like the way PHI missed Reddick's gravity. I know KAT makes up for it a little bit but DD was really a weapon running around 25' from the basket.

What they'll do about a KAT extension is tomorrow's problem. Right now they're a better team.

Not sure I get it from the Minnesota perspective. They're worse at the 4 now, and if they don't extend or re-sign Randle, they've basically done a salary dump despite having a contending roster with a still-improving superstar.

KAT signed his extension in 2022; this is the 1st year and it starts at $49M+. It's not a bad contract per se but there also weren't a lot of team itching to pay KAT $220M over the next 4 years.

For MIN, you could either call it a salary dump on a cap clean-up move. As I mentioned upthread, they were looking at $100M in luxury taxes this year and IIRC this is just the 1st year of taxes. As you know, each successive year gets way more punitive. They were keeping Ant; they couldn't get rid of Gobert; they wanted to extend Reid; McDaniel just signed a pretty nice extension - they just didn't have the payroll flexibility to keep this team intact.

This is a precursor of what BOS is going to face after this year.

 

[the moops]

View: https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1840039630193729748

He's going to come off the bench for the Wolves too, unless they move on from Randle.

Likely starting 5 of

Conley, Ant, McDaniels, Randle, Gobert

Dilingham, Donte, NAW, Naz

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Tatum at the 5 will NEVER be a primary option during the regular season.

BUT Tatum is already and will develop further into a high-leverage 5 in the playoffs, especially against KAT/Knicks,
Along with the Heat, Cavs, Indiana, and a bunch of WC teams.

Tatum will play very little Center minutes during the regular season since there is so much wear-n-tear of playing the 5.

BUT come playoffs Joe will unleash Point Center Tatum.

Positional versatility is one way Brad can address the Center conundrum/CBA/tax.

We'd all like the Celtics to set tax penalty records, but PBS has several levers he can pull if ownership balks at a $500M payroll where this team can compete for Championships. Unfortunately, that probably means they won't post the 3rd greatest Net Rtg in NBA history in future seasons.

Having been on Tatum as a matchup-based 5 in the playoffs all along, what I'd say is that I still see the usage as more of a 15ish minute a game plan, and fewer teams, than I beleive you are now suggesting. I continue to be of the view which you seem now to agree on that he's not a likely major regular season 5 option soon.

Let's get more specific: are you saying he's a starting 5 vs all those teams, or more where I've been that it's more a backup 5 kind of thing, which may include some closing minutes but is still not even half-time?

 

[RorschachsMask]

Over the last few seasons, here are Tatum and Jaylen’s numbers with Towns as the primary defender.

Tatum: 44 points on 15-24 shooting
Jaylen: 19 points on 8-12 shooting

Earlier I mentioned that crazy Celtics/Wolves game in Boston. KAT is just a horrid defender in space lol.

View: https://twitter.com/NElGHT_/status/1840021811926319165

 

[Auger34]

I think Brunson and Hart were a much bigger part of that esprit de corps than Randle, and DiVincenzo was a lot more fungible than the others. He's a plus value at his contract but I think most Knicks fans would be happy with the talent upgrade. Gonna be a lot more Towns jerseys sold than DDV or Randle would've sold, I think.

I think you underestimate how much the Knicks fans loved the “Nova Knicks” angle. Twitter isn’t the end all be all but most Knicks fans on there don’t like the trade.

 

[Tony C]

You're probably correct that Hart and Brunson set the tone, but NYK is going to miss DD's gravity - sort of like the way PHI missed Reddick's gravity. I know KAT makes up for it a little bit but DD was really a weapon running around 25' from the basket.

....

Wait, what? KAT only makes up for DD's 3 point shooting a "little bit?" KAT for his career hits 2.2% better 3 point shooting % than DD, and 10% better shooting % overall -- i.e, DD is one dimensional whereas KAT is great at going to the hoop, too. He has more gravity, in short. By a lot. If you seriously think DD attracts more attention than KAT from defenders, I don't know what to say.

Per Randle, KAT also shoots much better, of course, and he also rebounds and dishes better than Randle, He also keeps the ball moving, so should work great with Brunson and a Knicks offense with multiple scorers.

Somehow the analysis here is coming down to a KAT vs Tatum defensive match-up, which is an awfully small lens. Big picture, KAT is a huge upgrade over Randle at the cost of a very good outside shooter in DD. A price well worth it for the Knicks. KAT is being majorly under-rated here.

 

[lovegtm]

Over the last few seasons, here are Tatum and Jaylen’s numbers with Towns as the primary defender.

Tatum: 44 points on 15-24 shooting
Jaylen: 19 points on 8-12 shooting

Earlier I mentioned that crazy Celtics/Wolves game in Boston. KAT is just a horrid defender in space lol.

View: https://twitter.com/NElGHT_/status/1840021811926319165

Also, Jaylen and Jayson got better at exploiting centers on the perimeter as the playoffs went along. Starting with Myles Turner and into the Dallas series, it was just repeated cookings of guys who are better defenders than KAT.

Now, obviously, there are things a defense can do to mitigate this, and having OG + Bridges + Hart helps a ton in that regard. The problem is Brunson: the Cs are going to be able to devise a gameplan that forces hard decisions between letting one of Brunson and KAT get picked on.

This is where having 2 elite wings who can drive or post really helps, because you can exploit both a slow center and a small guard with the same players.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Knicks take some regular season games from Boston, but the playoffs are going to be tough for NY if these teams match up. And that's before we get into how open Boston is going to leave Josh Hart....

 

[lovegtm]

...For those cap nerds out there, and that is a compliment, was this a deal from Minnesota's perspective that was financially motivated by the second apron?
...

The 2nd apron doesn't really affect the money part (would have been very expensive in the old CBA too), but if Minnesota (correctly?) thinks Ant is a year or two away, it's very important to keep future picks unfrozen.

Those are the picks that roll into being tradeable as the Gobert trade recedes into the past, and they'll need those (along with ability to aggregrate salary) if they want to make a big move later for a perimeter scorer next to Ant. Minnesota could also try to re-sign Randle at a lower number to keep the ability to make trades.

If Detroit somehow gets decent (not inconceivable) and this pick conveys, then they could build a package of DET pick + 2031 + 2032 swap, or wait one more summer until 2026 and have the 2033 pick to deal as well. Minnesota can now wait and see how Ant develops in his playmaking reads (Tatum had a big progression from ages 23-26 in that regard), and then move decisively when/if he does.

None of this would be possible if they were over the 2nd apron.

 

[the moops]

Per Randle, KAT also shoots much better, of course, and he also rebounds and dishes better than Randle, He also keeps the ball moving, so should work great with Brunson and a Knicks offense with multiple scorers.

KAT does rebound better than Randle, but he is not a terribly good rebounder. Randle actually has better assist numbers than KAT - whether we look at AST% or per 36 or per 100 possessions, Randle comes out on top.

And not that this has anything to do with how good either are, but found it interesting that KAT only has 2 career triple doubles. Randle has 14

 

[benhogan]

Tatum as a short-minutes, high-leverage 5 has been my stance for a while (see below).

Starting is irrelevant. Whenever the highest leverage/best matchup presents itself (Q4). CJM has used it during the regular season for very short minutes, which we'll continue to see (see KAT match-up above).

BUT expect CJM to unleash Point Center Tatum fully in the playoffs more as JT continues to get bigger/stronger.

Horford isn't going to last forever & KP will probably be the first tax casualty. Point Center Tatum will be part of Brad's plan to replace them in the playoffs in the coming years.

Agreed, the Center position is taxing, banging down low against the beefier 5s is brutal. But that's not how the team would use JT. Many NBA Centers are now living on the perimeter as shooters, screeners/rollers, offensive hubs. Even a non-shooting BIG like Isaiah Hartenstein spends a fair amount of time on the 3pt line. It's where the game has gone and is going.

High-leverage, short minutes, Point Center Tatum implies he would only play the 5 in important/tight games (mostly playoffs), for 12-20mpg, and against specific matchups. I'm not really going out on a limb here, CJM did exactly that through the entire playoffs (Tatum vs. Lively, Mobley, Turner, Bam). It will only increase over the years as Tatum continues to get bigger/stronger. I doubt you'd see CJM match Tatum up against the Embiids, Jokers, and Andre Drummonds of the world.

It would be similar to the Dubs death lineup. I expect CJM will pair: JAYs + Hauser + White + Jrue more this season (especially with KP out until December & low Horford minutes).

Yes. JT's natural position & where he will mostly play is at the 4/Power Forward/Big Wing/Frontcourt player, whatever name you want to call it. He will also handle the ball a lot and initiate the offense, playing the role of yesteryear's "Point Guard".

The role of versatile Point Center is extremely valuable (modern-day Unicorn). If I squint, it's the road I see where Tatum could be labelled the best player in the NBA in a few seasons (vs. @PedroKsBambino Ant Edwards upside)

Below was your stance yesterday, which sounded negative about Tatum playing the 5.

Just to clarify, you are OK with Tatum at the 5 in the playoffs?
a little bit in the regular season?
or no regular season minutes at the 5?

They cannot approach 80-90% of Horford/Porzingis value with a min 5. They can't even get 50%. I get the theory, but in practice you cannot actually do what you suggest....and there just aren't many (if any) examples of championship teams with min starting 5s. And no, Tatum as 5 is not right around the corner and not obviously ever a realistic plan.

They need one quality big, at a minimum.

 

[Murderer's Crow]

Wait, what? KAT only makes up for DD's 3 point shooting a "little bit?" KAT for his career hits 2.2% better 3 point shooting % than DD, and 10% better shooting % overall -- i.e, DD is one dimensional whereas KAT is great at going to the hoop, too. He has more gravity, in short. By a lot. If you seriously think DD attracts more attention than KAT from defenders, I don't know what to say.

Per Randle, KAT also shoots much better, of course, and he also rebounds and dishes better than Randle, He also keeps the ball moving, so should work great with Brunson and a Knicks offense with multiple scorers.

Somehow the analysis here is coming down to a KAT vs Tatum defensive match-up, which is an awfully small lens. Big picture, KAT is a huge upgrade over Randle at the cost of a very good outside shooter in DD. A price well worth it for the Knicks. KAT is being majorly under-rated here.

And DDV had his best shooting year last year about to move into a reduced role.

The likelihood that he would have as big an impact this year was diminished on the Knicks when most nights he’d be getting 15-20 minutes max.

 

[the moops]

And DDV had his best shooting year last year about to move into a reduced role.

The likelihood that he would have as big an impact this year was diminished on the Knicks when most nights he’d be getting 15-20 minutes max.

I actually don't think he would have seen a reduced role. I think Hart would have been the one to see his minutes really decrease with the addition of Bridges

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Tatum as a short-minutes, high-leverage 5 has been my stance for a while (see below).

Starting is irrelevant. Whenever the highest leverage/best matchup presents itself (Q4). CJM has used it during the regular season for very short minutes, which we'll continue to see (see KAT match-up above).

BUT expect CJM to unleash Point Center Tatum fully in the playoffs more as JT continues to get bigger/stronger.

Horford isn't going to last forever & KP will probably be the first tax casualty. Point Center Tatum will be part of Brad's plan to replace them in the playoffs in the coming years.


Below was your stance yesterday, which sounded negative about Tatum playing the 5.

Just to clarify, you are OK with Tatum at the 5 in the playoffs?
a little bit in the regular season?
or no regular season minutes at the 5?

As I've said consistently since the playoffs (against a mostly negative view of it around here in the playoffs) Tatum at 5 is a lineup which makes sense in specific matchups and for limited minutes. It is not a primary option now, or in the likely future (which I've said to you a few times, including the above). I am not the one here whose view of Tatum at 5 has changed wildly over time!

Now, as with all these things I may be wrong but consistency is not my issue on this one...which is also why I'm pushing you to be more specific on what you expect. "Tatum will/won't ever play 5" is not much of a discussion...but how often, and how many minutes, is what I think people really have different views on around here.

 

[RorschachsMask]

I actually don't think he would have seen a reduced role. I think Hart would have been the one to see his minutes really decrease with the addition of Bridges

I think Thibs loves Hart like coach Brad loved Smart, and he will get big minutes regardless.

 

[lovegtm]

And DDV had his best shooting year last year about to move into a reduced role.

The likelihood that he would have as big an impact this year was diminished on the Knicks when most nights he’d be getting 15-20 minutes max.

If one of the best volume shooters in the league (who's also a good defender) was going to get his minutes reduced, that's a Knicks roster construction problem, not a DDV problem.

I think NYK would have preferred to start DDV on a KAT team, and bring Hart off the bench, but obviously the trade wouldn't have gotten done in that case.

 

[benhogan]

As I've said consistently since the playoffs (against a mostly negative view of it around here in the playoffs) Tatum at 5 is a lineup which makes sense in specific matchups and for limited minutes. It is not a primary option now, or in the likely future (which I've said to you a few times, including the above). I am not the one here whose view of Tatum at 5 has changed wildly over time!

Now, as with all these things I may be wrong but consistency is not my issue on this one...

I'm not sure Point Center Tatum is something I've vacillated on, but I'll take your word for it.

Looking forward to JT guarding KAT on the perimeter for ~15mpg when they play the NYKs 4X a year now.

 

[lovegtm]

JT-at-the-5 for 15-20 playoff minutes/game solves a lot of problems in a post-KP world.

You can dump KP (and PP, or maybe Jrue eventually), pay a good-not-great C $15-20M, back that up with minimum fungicenters in the regular season, and not sacrifice much if any playoff ceiling.

I doubt we'll see it much in the regular season except to get reps and make sure it works.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

JT-at-the-5 for 15-20 playoff minutes/game solves a lot of problems in a post-KP world.

You can dump KP (and PP, or maybe Jrue eventually), pay a good-not-great C $15-20M, back that up with minimum fungicenters in the regular season, and not sacrifice much if any playoff ceiling.

I doubt we'll see it much in the regular season except to get reps and make sure it works.

Yup. I see it argued you can just do a min 5 behind/next to Tatum. I just don't think that's realistic---you need a credible 5, and then some Tatum minutes when the matchups fit.

While 5s are way down in value/role, the argument 5s are fungible and you can win with min guys---there just aren't examples of that model working. While the Celtics are not a terrible fit for that setup (and we'll see plenty of min 5 minutes this year regular season after all) we also can't pretend the 5 doesn't matter at all. But you also don't need the luxury of Porzingis at 5 to win if you have the Celtics depth around them

 

[RorschachsMask]

View: https://twitter.com/MichaelVPina/status/1840048585984860352

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

This deal may work out. But it might not.

 

[RorschachsMask]

This deal may work out. But it might not.

You should actually try to read the article, Pina is very good.

 

[benhogan]

View: https://twitter.com/MichaelVPina/status/1840048585984860352

Good article, thanks for posting

some highlights

Randle is inefficient, volatile, and exudes a selfish streak. He’s a career 33.3 percent 3-point shooter who made 31.1 percent of them last year. How cramped will Ant’s driving lanes be without Towns spaced out behind the arc? How much room will Gobert have to roll when he sets a ball screen for Mike Conley?

getting rid of Towns now, as opposed to waiting until February (when a trade like this would likely still be on the table) fundamentally mutilates what had been a winning formula. Remember: Towns’s inability to anchor an above average defense was the biggest reason Minnesota mortgaged most of its future to get Gobert in the first place. I understand how dramatically the new CBA has changed every organization’s financial forecast, but for the Wolves to then turn around and eject KAT for a worse player who, on paper, doesn’t make a ton of sense next to Gobert or Ant is … not ideal.

Edwards just lost someone who might as well have been created in a lab as his ideal pick-and-roll partner. In four years as teammates, they developed a workable chemistry and dynamic that still had room to grow. Randle is a bit more clunky and less predictable. He needs the ball and doesn’t always make terrific decisions with it.

The other side of this transaction is less unsettling but hardly triumphant. Again: Why did the Knicks do this trade in late September, before actually getting a chance to see what Randle, OG Anunoby, and the Nova Bros actually looked like together? While understanding the relationship several members of New York’s front office have with Towns, absorbing his massive contract and reckless on-court tendencies (on both ends) make searching for a cheaper short-term solutions who wouldn’t cost DiVincenzo—their best shooter and second-leading scorer during last year’s postseason—a preferable route.

New York received the best player in this deal. But Towns in New York is not necessarily who he could be in Minnesota, where Gobert was a safety net. Mitchell Robinson can potentially fill a similar role but he’s consistently hurt (including right now, for the next few months) and doesn’t own four Defensive Player of the Year trophies. In other words, the Knicks did not solve their frontcourt issues. What they did, though, is add a highly talented big who can space the floor, develop a devastating two-man game with Jalen Brunson, and, historically, almost single-handedly raise the floor and ceiling of every offense he’s ever been in. (These on-off differentials don’t lie.)

Towns makes a lot more sense next to the remaining Nova crew than Randle did, which is likely what the Knicks are telling themselves. Anunoby can check some fives to keep him out of pick-and-roll when the Knicks put him at center. But picturing KAT at the five for lengthy stretches in the playoffs doesn’t work so well. Imagine him against the Celtics five-out offense, or forced to guard Joel Embiid, or trying to protect the rim and rebound as Giannis Antetokounmpo tries to assault it every 30 seconds. Offenses will make him and Brunson guard ball screen after ball screen. Maybe they’ll survive (having Mikal Bridges, Anunoby, and Josh Hart will obviously help) but it’ll be a grind.

And then there’s that contract, and all the ways it restricts New York’s flexibility. Even with Brunson’s generous pay cut, Anunoby and Towns take up a significant chunk of the cap with an extension for Bridges coming down the pipeline. They aren’t stuck in the second apron forever, but it’s a pricey bunch with few avenues to either make a meaningful upgrade or pivot elsewhere, if necessary. (Even after the 2025 draft, the Knicks can’t trade any of their own first-round picks.)

 

[benhogan]

nm