Kansas-K State Brawl

bakahump

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Didnt watch it live, I only saw the last 10 seconds and subsequent fight.

See it here

I am curious who was more in the wrong as far as breach of basketball etiquette? (with the understanding that both teams should have controlled themselves) (And this might lead to an interesting discussion of the "unwritten rules of Basketball".)

Kstate for trying to steal the ball with obviously no chance to win and while the other team was dribbling out the clock?

Or the Kansas Player for hustling back on a meaningless play and blocking the shot (and probably fouling) then Standing over the opposing player flexing and barking?

I would probably vote Kstate. If the other team is dribbling out (and the game is out of reach) then you let the clock wind.

BUT....the hard (probable) foul, stand over, flex and bark by Kansas certainly didnt cover themselves in glory.

Bad look all around. But I figured it might be an interesting discussion.
 

Kliq

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Without any replays/camera angles to show exactly how the incident went from taunting to fisticuffs, I would say the Kansas player is the most at fault for standing over the KState player and taunting him after the block. Everything before that is a basketball play and unwritten rule or not, can be summarized as normal parts of a game.
 

Average Reds

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Without any replays/camera angles to show exactly how the incident went from taunting to fisticuffs, I would say the Kansas player is the most at fault for standing over the KState player and taunting him after the block. Everything before that is a basketball play and unwritten rule or not, can be summarized as normal parts of a game.
I completely understand why the Kansas player who had the ball stolen from him was angry. And the blocked shot/hard foul was the appropriate message to send.

Standing over the player on the ground while taunting him was pathetic, and he owns the resulting brawl.
 

Strike4

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If the block was clean, awesome response. Unfortunately it was a hard foul, which is an escalation. The initial steal is totally a dick move but it doesn't hurt anybody (and his coach would probably yell at him).
 

InstaFace

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Yeah, and maybe the steal is a dick move with the game already decided, but you're down 20 and DaJuan Gordon saw an opportunity to get something to smile about and take from the game. It's still a basketball play, with the clock running. If there's a clean block, nobody comes off the bench.

Watch the replay of the "block" again, Silvio De Souza winds up and swings his arm into Gordon's head with all the force he can muster. That's a flagrant and maybe an ejection if there was time on the clock, there was absolutely no intent to try and make a clean play there. He wanted to hurt somebody, and may have. And then escalated with the standing / flexing, again with taking shoves to punches, and a third time when he picked up a fucking chair. Anyone defending him has some pretty twisted sense of right and wrong. If De Souza had ended it with the flagrant but Gordon got a concussion on the hard landing, would you be saying he deserved it?
 

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Watch the replay of the "block" again, Silvio De Souza winds up and swings his arm into Gordon's head with all the force he can muster. That's a flagrant and maybe an ejection if there was time on the clock, there was absolutely no intent to try and make a clean play there. He wanted to hurt somebody, and may have. And then escalated with the standing / flexing, again with taking shoves to punches, and a third time when he picked up a fucking chair. Anyone defending him has some pretty twisted sense of right and wrong. If De Souza had ended it with the flagrant but Gordon got a concussion on the hard landing, would you be saying he deserved it?
You sure about that? Check out this view.

That said I have no issue with the Kansas player until after the attempted murder/block when he taunted the KState player.
 

HurstSoGood

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I am stunned at any response that questions a player who plays the game until the clock strikes 0:00. The etiquette of a blowout (or game at hand), as I know it, is as follows: It is good form for offenses to run out the clock once the shot clock is turned off. In blowouts, it is not uncommon for the benchwarmers to try and get some shots and points on their resume, until that final possession is reached. Defensively, it is absolutely acceptable- and expected- to play out the game.

EVERY coach I had at the college level would rip players if they "stopped playing to the horn." I was what some called a "30/30" guy. I wouldn't get in the damn games unless we were up or down by 30 points. The garbage time sucked because, by the time I saw action, I was cold and the refs had already swallowed their whistles for the night. One night, while running out the clock, I got my nose cracked by the elbow of an overzealous opponent who was still going for steals in the last minute. No foul was called, despite the blood running down my face. We were up by over 40. We were both scrubs trying to earn more time or, at the very least, not piss off our coaches. Whatever.

This jackass from Kansas got picked, recovered, showed hustle and went for a block. In that moment, he was a player still in the right. Victory was at hand. As soon as he taunted and stepped over/into/onto the KSt player - who happened to be lying on the ground - he was in the wrong. He showed immaturity and a complete lack of mental toughness. No class.
 

InstaFace

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You sure about that? Check out this view.
Thanks, I retract my statement about the flagrant. The center-court camera view from the various articles about the incident makes it looks like he smacked Gordon full on in the head, but it's clear he was aiming for (and got) the ball there. He got trucked pretty hard, but you wouldn't normally expect that to be a flagrant.

Everything after that, though, yeah I think we agree.
 

fairlee76

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I am stunned at any response that questions a player who plays the game until the clock strikes 0:00. The etiquette of a blowout (or game at hand), as I know it, is as follows: It is good form for offenses to run out the clock once the shot clock is turned off. In blowouts, it is not uncommon for the benchwarmers to try and get some shots and points on their resume, until that final possession is reached. Defensively, it is absolutely acceptable- and expected- to play out the game.

EVERY coach I had at the college level would rip players if they "stopped playing to the horn." I was what some called a "30/30" guy. I wouldn't get in the damn games unless we were up or down by 30 points. The garbage time sucked because, by the time I saw action, I was cold and the refs had already swallowed their whistles for the night. One night, while running out the clock, I got my nose cracked by the elbow of an overzealous opponent who was still going for steals in the last minute. No foul was called, despite the blood running down my face. We were up by over 40. We were both scrubs trying to earn more time or, at the very least, not piss off our coaches. Whatever.

This jackass from Kansas got picked, recovered, showed hustle and went for a block. In that moment, he was a player still in the right. Victory was at hand. As soon as he taunted and stepped over/into/onto the KSt player - who happened to be lying on the ground - he was in the wrong. He showed immaturity and a complete lack of mental toughness. No class.
This is great perspective and your last paragraph sums up my feelings, exactly. The moment Desousa decided to taunt, step over/into the KState player, all bets were off. Desousa is damn lucky that assistant coach (or whoever it was) grabbed the stool out of Desousa's hands as he was attempting to swing it.
 

bakahump

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Interesting.
I am NOT defending the Kansas player. Up until he jumped and Fouled, Good hustle playing basketball.

But I do find it interesting that down 20 ish with 10 8 seconds on the clock and Kansas trying to "end it mercifully" that the guy who stole the ball (Kstate) isnt getting more heat.

He lets those 10 secs pass without trying to steal and none of this happens.

While I get that he may well have been a scrub trying to earn more time and impress the coach had Kstates star player get hurt in those last 10 seconds I cant imagine the coach would be "good job".
Remember this cuts both ways. The next time Kstates Star PG is dribbling out the clock of a blowout and the 14th guy off the bench for the other team dives into his legs ....

I get it.....its an "unwritten rule" (which means it doesnt exist). Or perhaps better phrased.... its "etiquette" which is a choice and cannot and should not be counted on. However There comes a point where the benefit of playing hard and to the whistle is outweighed by just letting the 10 seconds run. Should a player give up at 2 mins? Or 1 Min? No. But I think all of us can agree that 1 min and 10 seconds are 2 different things. I bet Kstates coach recognizes that.

All that said I totally agree that everything after the Jump part of the Block was pretty bad on Kansas part (not even getting into the chair swinging and punches).

Like I said I think there is room for interesting discussion on both sides of the issue.
 

Bosoxen

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He lets those 10 secs pass without trying to steal and none of this happens.
Great, so let's send him a strongly-worded letter to remind him of the unwritten rules of the game. Anything beyond that starts to border on victim blaming. If we want to assign blame, I'd assign .00001% to the K-State player for the crime of simply being there and 99.99999% to the Kansas player for completely losing his bloody mind. In addition to creating the altercation, he had to outdo himself by escalating it on multiple occasions.
 

bakahump

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Really? Thats what you got out of my post? Victim blaming? Ok Bosoxen.

We could debate "unwritten rules" and how stupid they are .....unless the team we root for is using them. But why bother...I mean they are stupid right? They have no place in sports and instead of usually Preventing situations like this, they are obviously the reason why this happened.
 

Mooch

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Great, so let's send him a strongly-worded letter to remind him of the unwritten rules of the game. Anything beyond that starts to border on victim blaming. If we want to assign blame, I'd assign .00001% to the K-State player for the crime of simply being there and 99.99999% to the Kansas player for completely losing his bloody mind. In addition to creating the altercation, he had to outdo himself by escalating it on multiple occasions.
I agree with this take but it raises an interesting hypothetical: What if the K-State player, in his attempt to steal the ball as Kansas is running out the clock, reaches in and breaks a finger of one of the Jayhawks in his attempt? Are we still absolving the Kansas State kid for "playing to the final whistle?" Is this somewhat analogous to defensive players diving into the backfield on a victory formation snap in football?
 

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Bruce Weber says he told his team not to foul or try to steal. If true, then the K. State player deserves some internal punishment for instigating. I don't know how active he was in the brawl

“It’s probably my fault,” Wildcats Coach Bruce Weber told reporters. “I had told them not to press, not to foul. I had told them to back off, but the kids are young guys. They want to play hard. They were disappointed and frustrated. You don’t want to take that fire out of their belly, but at the same time, you have to handle it right. I guess it created a bad thing.”
 

bakahump

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"Handle it right. I guess it CREATED a bad thing"
Code for "let them dribble out the ball and none of this happens."

Nah just victim blaming.
 

BigJimEd

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Like I said I think there is room for interesting discussion on both sides of the issue.
I don't really think there is.

This is on DeSousa for starting it. You can fault those that came off the bench but DeSousa is the main instigator.
He also appears to be the first to throw a punch.
Grabbing a chair brings it to a whole new level. He'll be sitting in a chair for a while and probably should be fine for the season. Time to declare for draft again.
 

RedOctober3829

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KU had this type of thing happen earlier in the year against Monmouth. KU was leading by like 40 and a Monmouth reserve stole the ball and went down and dunked it at the buzzer. I think they did not like that and did not want that to happen again so De Sousa went down and challenged him. Anything that happened after that is a complete embarrassment to the game. They could have hurt innocent disabled fans in the whole thing. De Sousa should be suspended for the rest of the season.
 

DJnVa

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I don't really think there is.
Yep. One *might* be against the unwritten rules or what the coach instructed. The other was flagrant taunting that is never okay. The K State player can run laps after practice. The Kansas player should be, and was, suspended.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Maybe I'm on an island here, but I think that's just about the one scenario where I don't have any problem with taunting. When a team is dribbling out the last seconds, in an attempt to not run up the score and show up the other team, and that team turns around and tries something like that - I'd let him hear about it too.

It was mentioned before, but if the QB is taking a knee to run out the last seconds in a 3-score game, is it OK for the D-lineman to drive the center back into the QB? Of course not, and you bet your ass the other offensive lineman would have plenty to say to the D-lineman that pulled that shit and there would likely be more than that, if we're being honest. And nobody would say a peep about it.

Everything that happened after that is obviously a very different matter. But pointing out that an asshole was being an asshole isn't anything I'd get my fainting couch out over. The steal wasn't a hustle play, it was a Ricky Davis level stat-pad attempt, and a total dick move.
 

Kliq

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Maybe I'm on an island here, but I think that's just about the one scenario where I don't have any problem with taunting. When a team is dribbling out the last seconds, in an attempt to not run up the score and show up the other team, and that team turns around and tries something like that - I'd let him hear about it too.

It was mentioned before, but if the QB is taking a knee to run out the last seconds in a 3-score game, is it OK for the D-lineman to drive the center back into the QB? Of course not, and you bet your ass the other offensive lineman would have plenty to say to the D-lineman that pulled that shit and there would likely be more than that, if we're being honest. And nobody would say a peep about it.

Everything that happened after that is obviously a very different matter. But pointing out that an asshole was being an asshole isn't anything I'd get my fainting couch out over. The steal wasn't a hustle play, it was a Ricky Davis level stat-pad attempt, and a total dick move.
I understand your reasoning but disagree slightly. I don't think your football example works that well because there is a much higher rate of injury in the football play than the basketball play, especially because in football an unsuspecting linemen being physically blown backwards and dropped on the QB is a very high-injury risk play, as opposed to a player in basketball stealing the ball and dribbling in for a layup.

I also think it is disingenuous to call it Ricky Davis-level stat padding. The Kansas State player DaJuan Gordon, is a freshman bench player who is trying to make in an impact in a rivalry game. Was it unnecessary to go for the steal? Yes, and it wouldn't happen in the NBA where everybody is a highly-paid professional. In college, it is a different atmosphere and it is hard to blame Gordon for playing hard, right until the end.

Also, this is an amazing photo:

28170
 

canderson

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The weirdest part of this is after the brawl they put a second back on the clock, due to some weird new NCAA rule.
 

Bosoxen

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"Handle it right. I guess it CREATED a bad thing"
Code for "let them dribble out the ball and none of this happens."

Nah just victim blaming.
Oh come off it. I said it borders on victim blaming to assign any kind of blame to Gordon. Read better.

Let's try a little thought experiment: If Gordon steals the ball and all de Sousa does is block the shot and retreats to his bench does anyone outside of the cable sports television hot take machine audience hear about it?

If your answer is "no" then obviously the aggravating factor was de Sousa escalating the situation multiple times. All Gordon did was make an unnecessary play that is 100% within the rules of the game and I'm supposed to be sympathetic to the view that he's somehow to blame for this fiasco?

Also, Weber is a moron for throwing his player under the bus. That sort of thing should have been handled internally.
 

bakahump

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I don't really think there is.

This is on DeSousa for starting it. You can fault those that came off the bench but DeSousa is the main instigator.
Thats the thing. As Hendu said....he DIDNT start it. Sure he started the fight. But he didnt start the chain of events.

He escalated it no doubt. Escalated way out of proportion. From Reserve Playing hard when he probably should have pulled up to full on assault escalation. Escalated beyond what most (including myself) deem reasonable. But had the steal not happened then the fight wouldnt have happened.

I am not defending what Desousa did. He should be suspended. He should probably be arrested....but KState has some responsibility here as well. I think both coaches have made that clear. And yea a firm tongue lashing, laps and an even Harder time getting on the court is probably all the Kstate reserve will and should get.

But the point remains.....he screwed up, which lead to the brawl. If he doesnt....there is no brawl.
 

bakahump

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Oh come off it. I said it borders on victim blaming to assign any kind of blame to Gordon. Read better.
...
That sort of thing should have been handled internally.
Ohhh Borders. Thanks for clarifying.

Lets do a little thought experiment.

If Gordon doesnt steal the ball, when his coach intimated (if not outright told him not to do) and which his teammates totally expected him to do (look at them....they are in dribble out mode) then none of this happens and does anyone including cable sports television hear about it.
 

DJnVa

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Thats the thing. As Hendu said....he DIDNT start it. Sure he started the fight. But he didnt start the chain of events.
That's dumb. The fight is the issue, not the chain of events.

If you and I are in a parking lot and you think I steal your parking space, follow me into the store, and clock me over the head, is your argument really going to be that I started the chain of events? What are you looking for here? The "chain of events" wasn't started by a K State player elbowing someone and then having it escalate.

The dude stealing the ball may have been out of line, but only in the unwritten rules of the game sense. The ONLY issue that makes this rise to thread worthy is what started the fight.
 

Bosoxen

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Ohhh Borders. Thanks for clarifying.

Lets do a little thought experiment.

If Gordon doesnt steal the ball, when his coach intimated (if not outright told him not to do) and which his teammates totally expected him to do (look at them....they are in dribble out mode) then none of this happens and does anyone including cable sports television hear about it.
Jesus fucking Christ, man. If you use the bathroom at a convenience store without purchasing anything and the clerk shoots you, are you to blame for kick starting the chain of events or is the clerk to blame for escalating the situation far beyond what was warranted?

I mean, if you hadn't done that, there would have been no shooting, right? The bathroom is for paying customers only, after all. Or is it, maybe, the fact that the clerk was willing to shoot someone for something so petty that's the real issue?
 

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Maybe if the city of Boston hadn't held the marathon those bombings would have never happened. Boston should have thought more about that. The marathon really started the chain of events.
 

DJnVa

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Based on the doctrine some folks are espousing in this thread, I can hunt down shitty posters and smack them and say they started the chain of events.
 

DJnVa

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Jesus fucking Christ, man. If you use the bathroom at a convenience store without purchasing anything and the clerk shoots you, are you to blame for kick starting the chain of events or is the clerk to blame for escalating the situation far beyond what was warranted?

I mean, if you hadn't done that, there would have been no shooting, right? The bathroom is for paying customers only, after all. Or is it, maybe, the fact that the clerk was willing to shoot someone for something so petty that's the real issue?
You realize this is violating an unwritten rule of bathroom usage right?
 

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Let’s go even further back! If Kansas hadn’t run up the score they wouldn’t have been running out the clock.
 

Marciano490

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Is that all press behind the line where the brawl ended up, or some fans? And do we know who the guy in the black shirt and white pants was? He was throwing punches too.
 

InstaFace

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If Dr. James Naismith doesn't invent basketball, then clearly none of this happens, so it's his fault.

...or maybe, the "start" of the chain of events isn't as important as the major inflection points along the way. There's only one person involved here who took this from "unremarkable event in a blowout basketball game" to "national news", and it's not the freshman who made the slightly-douchey steal.

I don't see anyone saying that the reaction was warranted.
Baka is doing the false-equivalence dance, with a "i'm not saying... I'm just saying" routine. He's "not defending" De Souza, but he "finds it interesting" that Gordon "isn't getting more heat". He then spends a few hundred words going into detail on why he thinks Gordon should get more heat, showing with his choice of emphasis that he clearly thinks it's Gordon's fault, even if he doesn't want to say so explicitly.

The only reasonable contrary opinion expressed so far has been Hendu for Kutch opining that the taunting was warranted, in an unwritten-rules sort of way. I disagree pretty strongly, but his isn't a stupid opinion. Baka's being disingenuous with his half-baked theories, and that's why he's getting such mockery.
 

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I had no problem with either the steal or the block — play hard to the final buzzer, but expect your opponent to do likewise. The taunting after the block was out of line, but was nothing more than a garden-variety technical foul. The K-State players who decided to fight are responsible for the situation, particularly the ones who left the bench to do so. DeSousa further escalated the situation by introducing a weapon (the chair), but I think he’s Stephen Jackson to the KSU players’ Ron Artest in this situation. I would’ve come down much harder on the KSU players than the Big 12 did.
 

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If Dr. James Naismith doesn't invent basketball, then clearly none of this happens, so it's his fault.
I almost made this exact point but instead went with the gas station bathroom analogy. Figured that amount of snark would have been unnecessary but I'm glad to see it used anyway to point out the absurdity of that argument.
I had no problem with either the steal or the block — play hard to the final buzzer, but expect your opponent to do likewise. The taunting after the block was out of line, but was nothing more than a garden-variety technical foul. The K-State players who decided to fight are responsible for the situation, particularly the ones who left the bench to do so. DeSousa further escalated the situation by introducing a weapon (the chair), but I think he’s Stephen Jackson to the KSU players’ Ron Artest in this situation. I would’ve come down much harder on the KSU players than the Big 12 did.
The guy got 8 games to De Sousa's 12. I'd say that's fairly even considering De Sousa threw the first punch and intended to use a chair as a weapon. In a vacuum, suspending someone for 25% (8 out of 31 games) of their season seems pretty fair for someone who instigates an altercation of that magnitude.

Baka will no doubt be happy to see Gordon get a 3-game suspension, though that was likely for his actions during the fracas, not for "kick starting the chain of events" which led to it.
 

EvilEmpire

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12 games is a stiff suspension. If De Sousa had actually cracked someone with that stool, I'd agree with something season-long or stronger. But he didn't. Fights happen. I could be totally off, but it seems like the Big 12 followed normal protocol for that. If they did, it's fine.
 
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