Juwan Howard needs a time out
- Thread starter canderson
- Start date
Yeah I should have said in my last post that this is not a good look, but he wasn't arrested for anything, he didn't commit domestic violence....he has 19 years playing in the NBA, five years coaching in the NBA, took over Michigan and brought them to the final four....I am pretty sure he has a reputation that can withstand one incident that was precipitated by the other coach also being an asshole. This idea that he is all done or is going to be an assistant coach for Iona is pretty laughable.
Just that "Minor" incident last year when he said "I'm going to kill you".
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2022/02/20/michigan-basketball-coach-juwan-howard-should-fired-finley/6873261001/
I suspect beyond the five-game suspension, we can also expect an insincere public apology from Howard, which he will read from a script written by UMich's Associate Sports Information Director, followed by "That's the last time I'm going to discuss this, let's talk about the game against Purdue."
So, if that makes you feel better...
So, if that makes you feel better...
For what it’s worth, a friend played with him and said he’s the nicest guy. And yeah yeah I know Marciano story but relevant.
And there we are.
It's perfect. For the numbskulls who only watch the crawl or read Twitter it seems to pop up as "suspended for the rest of the regular season" which sounds much more serious than "suspended for 5 games."
Calls for firing him may have been extreme, but five games is an absolute joke. Mark my words, with this wrist slap, it won’t be his last incident.
I just hope he doesn’t injure anyone next time.
I just hope he doesn’t injure anyone next time.
Yes. Whether or not he does it again, the tolerance for outbursts of physical violence in sports is ridiculous and sad.
I expected the season suspension as a placeholder until the suits, alumni, etc have a chance to digest the ramifications of Howards action. I don’t feel it is right to terminate immediately on emotion just as I don’t feel it is right to allow him to represent the school for the rest of the year.
His non-apology in the post-game presser didn’t do him any favors and if Michigan wants to get out of paying his buy-out this cause would be a great opportunity. If he was already on the hot seat with these guys then he’s a goner. Howard made his own bed here.
I hadn't considered the "placeholder" point. Given the emotion of the moment, and the number of stakeholders that probably have to be included, I suppose it is possible that sometime before the beginning of the Big10 tournament (3/9), they could agree on something longer. I'd guess there are some in the inner circle who would frame it as, "sit out through the end of the NCAA tournament or you;re fired," but I doubt that's the view that prevails.
The way that the AD came out hard after the incident and the statement that was released...I'd say that it's a non-zero chance that they tack on.
Yeah it has a “Oh crap we’ve got to get everyone on the same page here before we decide but let’s at least do the regular season to buy us some time.” kinda feel to it. I expect them to stretch out the suspension through the tournament. If Howard is going to remain the Michigan coach I would be very surprised if he’s on their sideline before next seasons opener and a completed anger-management course for the PR.
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If this is the case, and it's a placeholder because they "had to do something", why not an indefinite suspension pending further investigation and deliberation? Feels like everyone is likely to come out looking better if a prolonged suspension that takes him out of the tournament isn't a seeming after-thought or a reaction to those that think 5 games isn't enough. If five games is really what they want to do, it's easy enough to announce the suspension is ending as a result of some action on Howard's part like agreeing to counseling or anger management or something.
Nice guy. I’m sure these are the only two times he’s become unhinged, and it never gets directed at players.
Thank you, next.
And yes, I just quoted Ariana Grande.
Thank you, next.
And yes, I just quoted Ariana Grande.
I don’t think we should get all caught up in this being “5 games.” If the season had 10 games to go it likely would have been a 10-game suspension……if there were 3 games it would have been a 3-game. The number of games remaining in the season don’t seem to be relevant from my view.
This is extremely unlikely. Michigan wants this embarrassing incident to go away. Announcing a second round of punishments will just put it back in front of the talking heads. Right now, Howard is set to come back for a game at a mostly-empty neutral site arena in the 1st round of the Big Ten Tournament. This couldn't have been scripted better for them if they wanted something to slowly disappear.
The suspension seems like it’s in the realm of reasonable here, all things considered. They fined Gard, too. Why? For calling time outs? No, it’s because he got a little too aggressively handsy and was seen as provoking Howard. Now, that doesn’t excuse anything, but it’s part of the context.
I tend to agree that this won’t be a serial suspension process. They’ll want to move on. My sense is that they also actually like Howard, and that has and will impact the decision-making.
And just for the record, I think Howard’s actions - even his attitude - were ridiculous and indefensible. Who cares if they called a time out? Who cares what an assistant coach says? Move on, for sh!t’s sake. To throw a punch?? Pathetic.
I tend to agree that this won’t be a serial suspension process. They’ll want to move on. My sense is that they also actually like Howard, and that has and will impact the decision-making.
And just for the record, I think Howard’s actions - even his attitude - were ridiculous and indefensible. Who cares if they called a time out? Who cares what an assistant coach says? Move on, for sh!t’s sake. To throw a punch?? Pathetic.
Why is it inherently wrong for a coach to go off on a player?
Unless you're trying to imply you think he's hit his players before.
I don't know if it's inherently wrong but if it's wrong if it's related to sports. I don't see any reason for a 50 year old dude to chew out an 18 year old kid about basketball.
It’s different in 2022. Decades ago this was an extremely effective wake up call for players to step up their game if executed properly. It’s called competition. When practice or the game is over the coach puts his arm around you and you’re both proud at the result. You learn how to separate what occurs inside the lines and outside. Again, we aren’t in those times today so motivating and coaching is trickier.
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I disagree with the second sentence. I don't think it's okay if it's your only tactic but I do think there's still a place for a coach to be able to aggressively go after his team without fear of losing his job.
I agree. But yelling isn’t abuse. As far as I can tell, it’s not even correlated with abuse.
I’m less sure about whether taking a swipe at an opposing coach in a postgame scrum is a red flag. I’m inclined to say it is not — not because an abusive coach can’t also be a hothead, but because abuse seems like something that’s done in a calculated way, as opposed to being something that happens when someone flies off the handle.
Juwan Howard’s temper might make him a less than ideal U12 basketball coach, but I’d have no reservations letting my son play for him at Michigan.
This is slicing the bologna pretty thin.
Is yelling correlated with success? (I mean demeaning yelling, not just being loud enough to be heard).
And whatever a hotheaded coach taking a swipe at the opposing coach is or isn't a red flag for, it is a red flag in that if it happens again the coach you sent your kid to play for won't be coaching there anymore.
I’m no Mona Lisa Vito of emotional health but this is not consistent with my understanding of how abuse works. And it seems like a bad take for victims to read.
Abuse doesn’t have to be intentional, and frankly I think intent is not really the most relevant issue. But hey, maybe after a tough loss, letting it out on the other coach would motivate his team, so cool cool, right? Of course they might just think their coach is an asshole, or be afraid of him.
I would definitely have questions about that program for my son. If he’s good enough for Michigan he’s good enough to play in a program where he isn’t going to be under the thumb of a hothead or bully. I would want to rule that out. I have objected to far less in youth sports, let alone semi-professional ball.
You should take that post down or clarify it. It could get someone hurt.
Do you feel it is ever appropriate for a college coach to yell at his or her players or does that always constitute some form of abuse?
Not challenging you, genuinely curious about your thoughts on this issue because it is an interesting one given how society has (appropriately) evolved. Can you give a scenario that you would find acceptable in which a coach goes aggressively after the team? Again, not challenging you, I am just curious about where you and others on the board would draw the line.
I think when you have a guy who couples losing physical control with running his mouth it’s a red flag. Is “yelling” appropriate to assure you’re heard in a noisy gym? Sure. Is berating a player verbally ever appropriate? I can’t really imagine such an instance. Maybe I’m old. I played sports and I remember it made me uncomfortable when coaches ran down my teammates. Even the space cadets who “deserved” it. I assume at Michigan, that doesn’t need to be an issue. There are plenty of motivated kids who’d love to play. Even ones who have a bad day for some reason. Plenty of folks who want to coach, too. Is Juwan Howard so special?
Ever? Yes. if a player in the handshake line takes a swing at an opposing player, that could be an appropriate time to yell at him to cut the shit.
But for the most part, singling out a player to unload on does not seem to be appropriate (or effective).
Also, I'm not going to play the semantic game of whether its
I’m outside of the forum I moderate, so I want to be clear that I am posting this as a member and not a moderator.
No one is getting hurt because mauf disagrees with you. Using that hyperbolic claim as a cudgel and requesting that he take down his post is some serious bullshit, IMO.
Yes I do. Like everything, if done in moderation, it can be a very effective tactic. I'm not defending the hothead coach whose only motivation tactic is to dress down a player but I think there are certainly times when the only way to reach a player is to metaphorically kick him in the ass. Of course there's a time and place but we're arguing over a hypothetical where a poster assumes Howard berates his current players based on his actions in a handshake line and zero actual evidence.
I think it depends on your definition of "berate". I don't view yelling at a player who is not playing to up to his potential that day as "berating". Again, it shouldn't be the only tool in your motivational toolbag but I don't think it should be a tool that can / should never be used. I don't think everything can or should be lovey-dovey, "oh you're having a bad day, I'm sure you'll be better tomorrow" (yes, that's a hyperbole) just as I don't think you should go full Mike Rice Jr. But when a 20 year-old has had shitty practices for a week and you're going into an important stretch of games, you may have to switch up your tactics.
Again, I disagree with the above. Different players are motivated differently. It is the job of the coach to figure out the best way to do so, one of which may be yelling at them. I come back to the Tom Izzo example from a couple years ago when a bunch of people pearl-clutched at Izzo yelling at his player only for current and former players and recruits saying they had no issue with it.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26334855/msu-players-defend-izzo-screaming-incident
I’m going to step off here because with one Dope and one not-mod potentially on the defensive I know it doesn’t end well for me. But I’ll just say that for a person who has suffered abuse, two mods making apologies for lack of abusive intent could WELL be triggering—to say nothing of just generally normalizing that kind of “bullshit.” I thought carefully about what I posted, and decided to leave it in. Because maybe it resonates with someone. But it’s not my forum. So call it bullshit all you want.
I said it’s a red flag. I said I’d want to rule out that he acts the same way towards players that he has demonstrated publicly towards other coaches. It is certainly possible he doesn’t. But no, it wouldn’t shock me if he does.
Please show me where I said anything that qualifies as an apology for abusive intent. I’ll help you - you can’t, because the posts I’ve made in this thread have all been very critical of Howard. (I’m much closer to your position on him than mauf’s.)
You made a claim that someone who disagrees with you could get someone hurt. And you then used that claim to demand that they take down their post. When called on it, you doubled down and falsely accused me of making an apology for abusive intent.
I understand that you may be emotional about this topic. Thats not an excuse for this kind of personal attack, IMO.
I will say that teams play for 4-6 hours a week but practice for many more time that. So unless there's something egregious in game (for which YMMV), I'm unlikely to base an opinion about a particular coach based on a single outburst in a single game. (IIRC, one of Knight's beginning-of-the-end moments occurred in practice).
As for the Izzo moment, there's really no way to tell what impact that had on potential recruits. It's not like they've been world-beaters since then. For every 500 parents out there saying, "thats what my kid needs" there might be 5000 saying "not my kid."
Your interpretation of what you wrote (quoted below) is a markedly different than mine.
He said apologizing for *lack* of abusive intent. His point is intent doesn't really matter, your actions can still be abusive and hurt others even if you didn't intend to.
Yes, I realize that I misread that. Was coming here to make that correction.
My larger point is that I haven’t been apologizing for Juwan Howard anywhere in this thread. And I don’t agree with mauf on this issue. I just didn’t like someone claiming that a difference in opinion could get someone hurt and using that as a basis for someone to take down a post.
Stop. I never claimed that a difference in opinion could get someone hurt, much less use that as a basis for asking him to take down or clarify his post. That is not a post made in good faith especially given the private messages we’ve had @Average Reds. Holy shit.
I was responding to this, where you told him that his opinion could get someone hurt.
Isn't the elephant in the room that whether something rises to the level of abuse has a lot to do not only with how it's being said, but what is being said?
I mean, not all yelling is abuse, and not all soft whispers are fine. Being cold and distant can be just as emotionally destructive as being in one's face with spit flying out of your mouth.
My kids play 10U rec basketball. Their coach (a local NPR affiliate classical music DJ, no less) often yells at them to "cover your man!" or "get back!" or "Come on, [boy's name], go after that ball!" in the middle of games. It's loud. All the parents can hear it. There's an unmistakable frustration in his voice. One parent reached out to me at the beginning of the season and said "Hey, you know Coach, but my kid says he's really loud. Is this something to worry about?" I said "No, I coached baseball with Coach and while he can get amped up and express his frustration verbally, loudly, in games and practices, it's always about what's going on in the game. It's never personal and at the end of the game he's just another dad." If he called kids "soft", or if he went after only one player again and again, or if he made kids cry...well, that would be a different story.
Point is: unless we know what's being said, it's impossible to know whether someone's jawing is abusive.
I mean, not all yelling is abuse, and not all soft whispers are fine. Being cold and distant can be just as emotionally destructive as being in one's face with spit flying out of your mouth.
My kids play 10U rec basketball. Their coach (a local NPR affiliate classical music DJ, no less) often yells at them to "cover your man!" or "get back!" or "Come on, [boy's name], go after that ball!" in the middle of games. It's loud. All the parents can hear it. There's an unmistakable frustration in his voice. One parent reached out to me at the beginning of the season and said "Hey, you know Coach, but my kid says he's really loud. Is this something to worry about?" I said "No, I coached baseball with Coach and while he can get amped up and express his frustration verbally, loudly, in games and practices, it's always about what's going on in the game. It's never personal and at the end of the game he's just another dad." If he called kids "soft", or if he went after only one player again and again, or if he made kids cry...well, that would be a different story.
Point is: unless we know what's being said, it's impossible to know whether someone's jawing is abusive.
Yes. Thanks. These are important points. Most competitive players don’t mind emotionally amped up coaches, so long as the yelling is play-related and not personally demeaning. We had an issue with my daughter’s varsity volleyball coaches, who routinely swore at the players, singled them out for punishment, called them derogatory names (using the “R” word set me over the edge), and used punishment for poor performance (forcing teammates to carry one another while running stairs after a bad practice was one example that was, at best, recklessly stupid). So we and a few other parents demanded a meeting with the AD. The HC’s assistant coach/daughter was basically forced to resign. The HC followed her out. Their kind of behavior shouldn’t be tolerated, imo, at any level, but especially in youth leagues and/or educational settings, which college still is (theoretically!).
All that said, this is a bit unfair as applied to Howard. I’ve seen zero evidence that he acts abusively toward his players, who seem to love playing for him. And it’s not a fair generalization to say that because he’s lost it with opposing coaches, he must do the same with his team. That doesn’t necessarily or even logically follow.
There are many behaviors that fall in the vast middle ground between yelling simply to be heard, and yelling at someone in a way that is demeaning. From my observation, the vast majority of high school and college football and basketball coaches operate in that middle ground more than sporadically. I don’t think that’s a problem. And I doubt that coaches who yell more than their peers at opposing coaches are more likely to cross the line into abuse of their own players than coaches who are more civil to their peers.
You’re right about the consequences for Howard if this happens again, but I think he’ll learn his lesson and is more likely than your average D-I head coach to be in the same place in five years.
not to argue semantics, but I said chew out an 18 year old, not aggressively go after an entire team (or even an individual 18 year old). When I say chew out, I mean get right in someone's face and start yelling at them. Others may have a different definition of the term.
I think maybe we can all agree there is no reason to ever get in someone else's personal space while screaming at them? I am not a saint. I have screamed at plenty of people myself. But I have always socially distanced myself at least 6-8 ft in the process and never made any type of movements that could be considered threatening. The other person is always yelling back, too. People get angry and people yell.
And while I know you didn't mean to replace 18 year old with team, I think yelling at a group of tweens is far less egregious than yelling at an individual tween. I'd say especially so if no one else is around but being berated in front of your peers isn't a picnic either.
Yelling "come on, you missed your assignment. You need to do better" is acceptable. Yelling "how did you miss that assignment you fucking r word" is definitely not.
Or what Leather said better than me. Context matters. Like, a lot. Without it, we don't really know anything. But getting in anyone's face to yell is always a huge no. At least to me. That's especially true when the coach is in a significant position of power over the player, excluding the NBA/pros anyway.
I used team mistakenly meaning player on a team.
The issue I have with the above is you are personalizing yet (assuming here) never played or coached at a high-level college / pro sports. For example, "getting in anyone's face to yell is always a huge no" is an opinion you're presenting as fact based on your personal preferences. I also take issue with the use of your term "always".