Juwan Howard needs a time out

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I used team mistakenly meaning player on a team.

The issue I have with the above is you are personalizing yet (assuming here) never played or coached at a high-level college / pro sports. For example, "getting in anyone's face to yell is always a huge no" is an opinion you're presenting as fact based on your personal preferences. I also take issue with the use of your term "always".
I don't know why the setting matters. Why is the college/pro sport thing an excuse?
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2006
16,090
Tuukka's refugee camp
Because sports is markedly different than the real world so that requires establishing different contexts for appropriate behavior. I can't go and randomly bodycheck a person in the grocery store like I can on a hockey rink. That's one of many reason I dislike your association of screaming at people in the course of normal life to be the same as it happening in the course of sports. There's literally a different set of societal rules that is applicable when you step onto the court / ice / field / whatever. Your last post echoed Leather's comments about context matters but you are questioning why I am bringing up context.

I think the college / pro thing is important because the stakes are objectively higher in college and pro sports. College can bit nit picked but most kids in the sports people actually follow (no, not fencing or sailing or one a smaller sport) are on some sort of scholarship / aid. A professional athlete's job is his / her sport. How a coach motivates his / her players should IMO be different than how a high school coach motivates his / her team. Sometimes that involves rainbows and butterflies and sometimes that involves getting in the person's face. Again, it shouldn't be the only tactic but I firmly believe it should be a tactic available to the coach to deploy as they see fit.

You think people getting up in your face and yelling at you is a line to never be crossed in any situation. Which is fine. But it's also a completely arbitrary definition based on your personal communication preferences informed by non-sports interactions.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Because sports is markedly different than the real world so that requires establishing different contexts for appropriate behavior. I can't go and randomly bodycheck a person in the grocery store like I can on a hockey rink. That's one of many reason I dislike your association of screaming at people in the course of normal life to be the same as it happening in the course of sports. There's literally a different set of societal rules that is applicable when you step onto the court / ice / field / whatever. Your last post echoed Leather's comments about context matters but you are questioning why I am bringing up context.

I think the college / pro thing is important because the stakes are objectively higher in college and pro sports. College can bit nit picked but most kids in the sports people actually follow (no, not fencing or sailing or one a smaller sport) are on some sort of scholarship / aid. A professional athlete's job is his / her sport. How a coach motivates his / her players should IMO be different than how a high school coach motivates his / her team. Sometimes that involves rainbows and butterflies and sometimes that involves getting in the person's face. Again, it shouldn't be the only tactic but I firmly believe it should be a tactic available to the coach to deploy as they see fit.

You think people getting up in your face and yelling at you is a line to never be crossed in any situation. Which is fine. But it's also a completely arbitrary definition based on your personal communication preferences informed by non-sports interactions.
While I still think it's wrong, player vs player is a different animal than coach vs whatever. Someone getting body checked is a bit different than someone calling a time out on you. I'd probably feel a little differently about all this if Juwan Howard was playing and took a swing at an opposing player who committed a hard foul on him a minute earlier. I'd feel a lot differently if the person he swung at was the person who grabbed him too. Because another thing I think is wrong is grabbing people. Keep your hands to yourself. I think that's far worse than yelling in someone's face actually. You don't touch people, especially when they are clearly heated.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2006
16,090
Tuukka's refugee camp
Nowhere have I said the situations are analogous and I am not comparing player vs. player to coach vs. whatever.

I'm comparing sports to the real word and saying why you shouldn't use your real world experience (within reason) and assume it applies 1:1 in the sports world. Your initial post did that with the "you should never yell in someone's face" which is based on your personal experience and preferences in non-sports interactions.
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,613
I'm comparing sports to the real word and saying why you shouldn't use your real world experience (within reason) and assume it applies 1:1 in the sports world. Your initial post did that with the "you should never yell in someone's face" which is based on your personal experience and preferences in non-sports interactions.
Totally agree. As an aside, it is pretty amusing reading this thread as an Army veteran. Some of the greatest men I've met in my life "got in my face" on occasion (although some pretty useless fuckers did, too).
 

CFB_Rules

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2016
1,603
While we are here, I would love to hear some opinions on whether it is ever okay for a coach to yell at game officials *ducks*
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,283
AZ
While we are here, I would love to hear some opinions on whether it is ever okay for a coach to yell at game officials *ducks*
i think the question is whether it ever works. I think most lay fans think it might. Even those of us who believe that every major sport ref wants only to get the call right still suspect that in a very imperceptible way crowd and coach can perhaps make a difference at the margins and make a ref hesitate. It feels like human nature, but none of us knows I guess.

I guess turn the question around. If you know you kicked a call or that you probably did and a coach gets on your case for it does it matter at all?
 

CFB_Rules

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2016
1,603
i think the question is whether it ever works. I think most lay fans think it might. Even those of us who believe that every major sport ref wants only to get the call right still suspect that in a very imperceptible way crowd and coach can perhaps make a difference at the margins and make a ref hesitate. It feels like human nature, but none of us knows I guess.

I guess turn the question around. If you know you kicked a call or that you probably did and a coach gets on your case for it does it matter at all?
Yes. They'll get more leeway. If it's a really bad mistake that basically everyone knows (like an inadvertent whistle killing a potential scoring play) it's pretty standard to give a coach a "free" timeout to SAY whatever they want without repercussion. Actions are still treated the same. And we are dropping it after they get their freebie.
 

troparra

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 3, 2007
1,921
Michigan
While I still think it's wrong, player vs player is a different animal than coach vs whatever. Someone getting body checked is a bit different than someone calling a time out on you. I'd probably feel a little differently about all this if Juwan Howard was playing and took a swing at an opposing player who committed a hard foul on him a minute earlier. I'd feel a lot differently if the person he swung at was the person who grabbed him too. Because another thing I think is wrong is grabbing people. Keep your hands to yourself. I think that's far worse than yelling in someone's face actually. You don't touch people, especially when they are clearly heated.
So in your book, the order of seriousness is:
Most serious: grabbing
Most serious #2: Yelling
Kinda serious but can be justified: Hitting
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
So in your book, the order of seriousness is:
Most serious: grabbing
Most serious #2: Yelling
Kinda serious but can be justified: Hitting
That's one way to read it I guess. Grabbing is hitting. Don't touch people. Keep your hands to yourself.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Because sports is markedly different than the real world so that requires establishing different contexts for appropriate behavior. I can't go and randomly bodycheck a person in the grocery store like I can on a hockey rink. That's one of many reason I dislike your association of screaming at people in the course of normal life to be the same as it happening in the course of sports. There's literally a different set of societal rules that is applicable when you step onto the court / ice / field / whatever. Your last post echoed Leather's comments about context matters but you are questioning why I am bringing up context.

I think the college / pro thing is important because the stakes are objectively higher in college and pro sports. College can bit nit picked but most kids in the sports people actually follow (no, not fencing or sailing or one a smaller sport) are on some sort of scholarship / aid. A professional athlete's job is his / her sport. How a coach motivates his / her players should IMO be different than how a high school coach motivates his / her team. Sometimes that involves rainbows and butterflies and sometimes that involves getting in the person's face. Again, it shouldn't be the only tactic but I firmly believe it should be a tactic available to the coach to deploy as they see fit.

You think people getting up in your face and yelling at you is a line to never be crossed in any situation. Which is fine. But it's also a completely arbitrary definition based on your personal communication preferences informed by non-sports interactions.
Bravo! This post nails it all.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,685
where the darn libs live
Because sports is markedly different than the real world so that requires establishing different contexts for appropriate behavior. I can't go and randomly bodycheck a person in the grocery store like I can on a hockey rink. That's one of many reason I dislike your association of screaming at people in the course of normal life to be the same as it happening in the course of sports. There's literally a different set of societal rules that is applicable when you step onto the court / ice / field / whatever. Your last post echoed Leather's comments about context matters but you are questioning why I am bringing up context.

I think the college / pro thing is important because the stakes are objectively higher in college and pro sports. College can bit nit picked but most kids in the sports people actually follow (no, not fencing or sailing or one a smaller sport) are on some sort of scholarship / aid. A professional athlete's job is his / her sport. How a coach motivates his / her players should IMO be different than how a high school coach motivates his / her team. Sometimes that involves rainbows and butterflies and sometimes that involves getting in the person's face. Again, it shouldn't be the only tactic but I firmly believe it should be a tactic available to the coach to deploy as they see fit.

You think people getting up in your face and yelling at you is a line to never be crossed in any situation. Which is fine. But it's also a completely arbitrary definition based on your personal communication preferences informed by non-sports interactions.
I couldn't give a fuck about the whole situation -- I don't care about Michigan or Wisconsin basketball at all.

This post is 100% right on.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
i think the question is whether it ever works. I think most lay fans think it might. Even those of us who believe that every major sport ref wants only to get the call right still suspect that in a very imperceptible way crowd and coach can perhaps make a difference at the margins and make a ref hesitate. It feels like human nature, but none of us knows I guess.

I guess turn the question around. If you know you kicked a call or that you probably did and a coach gets on your case for it does it matter at all?
It’s no different than having a great salesperson and a mediocre or worse salesperson. You are selling the official on your point of view and like the great salesperson, the coach who can sell/work the officials will have better results. We all saw Brad Stevens his first year in Boston not have any idea how to execute these sales pitches and we saw how the opposing coach won the matchup with the officials on a nightly basis.