Jurassic World 3: Where the Dinosaurs have Quad Injuries and Hate Their Shoe Deals

BigSoxFan

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I agree with Woj, Ball is just not a Spurs player. Pop would probably quit rather than deal with that circus. Dealing Kyrie means Rozier, who can't pass, is your PG. It's basically a no distributor but lots of length lineup. I'd rather keep Kyrie.
If the Celtics trade for Kawhi, I think it’d be for the Brown/Rozier/Morris/Filler package. Brown and Rozier gives the Spurs 2 young players to build around, which they need. Rozier is a significant upgrade over Dejounte Murray. Brown would be an incredible fit with Pop.

The Celtics would then have their superteam of:

Horford
Tatum
Kawhi
Hayward
Kyrie

With bench of:

Smart (assuming be
Theis
MLE
#27
Ring chasers

Owners would have to be ready to spend some serious money to make it work more than 1 year, and Kawhi/Kyrie would have to want to stay, but that lineup would be unstoppable.
 

turnthe2

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Hayward makes the most sense for both teams but you really risk alienating Stevens.
Not only that but all potential future free agents (which I’m sure has been mentioned before). Yes fans and players understand the “it’s a business” mentality but what kind of precedence is set when you trade a guy who only played 5min of an entire season after signing a mega deal?

Sign me up for standing pat with the starting 5. Look to upgrade bench pieces via draft/free agency/trades. The drama revolving around the Spurs and Leonard the last 6months is enough to turn me off also to the idea of a trade.
 

JCizzle

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Not only that but all potential future free agents (which I’m sure has been mentioned before). Yes fans and players understand the “it’s a business” mentality but what kind of precedence is set when you trade a guy who only played 5min of an entire season after signing a mega deal?

Sign me up for standing pat with the starting 5. Look to upgrade bench pieces via draft/free agency/trades. The drama revolving around the Spurs and Leonard the last 6months is enough to turn me off also to the idea of a trade.
Preach. The downside is not worth the incremental upgrade.
 

Sox and Rocks

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This is what the NBA has become, isn't it? Five or six teams suck out all of the oxygen, plotting mega-deals to create mega-teams, while nobody else has a hope in hell. The NBA is now much more like the English Premier League than the NFL, NHL or MLB. (There is always the possibility in the NBA that your team can become one of those five or six teams, which is different from English soccer...but within any period of several seasons, it's otherwise pretty much identical.)
Yes, and it sucks for the majority of fans.

I want to like the NBA, but they don't like me.
 

vicirus

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Why is it more likely?
Trading Hayward, rather than Kyrie, for Kawhi is in my opinion more likely because the former is more of a 1:1 swap. Our injured player for their injured player, and they’re both wings. If you trade Kyrie, now you need to re-sign Smart or you have a big drop off to Rozier. In a vacuum I think it makes the team significantly better (assuming Kawhi is healthy).

I completely understand the optics around the league if you trade Hayward, but the guy just missed an entire year, will likely only play 2 seasons and then opt out and could leave on his own accord. It’s not like he’d be banishing the guy to Sacramento or some other terrible situation. If you have the opportunity to trade a Top 20 guy for a Top 5-8 guy, you do it.
 

triniSox

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Rozier is a significant upgrade over Dejounte Murray
I disagree with that assessment. Rozier a better shooter for sure but Murray is an elite defender - NBA All-Defense Second Team. He's a better rebounder than Rozier and is a couple years younger too. I don't think it's clear-cut but I'd take Murray over Rozier.
 

vicirus

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Preach. The downside is not worth the incremental upgrade.
What free agents wouldn’t sign? As currently constructed, they wouldn’t be able to sign a max guy for half a decade anyway, assuming Kyrie/Kawhi take max deals to stay, and then Brown/Tatum continue on the same trajectory. Those are the only players you need to worry about, and you’re making that trade for their benefit.

If it was my decision, I’d ship Kyrie to SAS 1:1 and then send Hayward to Cleveland with as many picks as needed for Lebron. Keep Rozier for when you need a PG, otherwise trot out one of the best teams in league history.
 

BigSoxFan

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I disagree with that assessment. Rozier a better shooter for sure but Murray is an elite defender - NBA All-Defense Second Team. He's a better rebounder than Rozier and is a couple years younger too. I don't think it's clear-cut but I'd take Murray over Rozier.
Shooting is kind of important in today’s NBA. Murray has hit 18 three pointers in his NBA career. He is younger so in 3 years the equation may be different but right now, Rozier is a superior player and almost every NBA GM would prefer him to Murray in a vacuum.
 

Swedgin

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Preach. The downside is not worth the incremental upgrade.
At the end of the day I don't think even Danny is cold hearted enough to move Hayward, but the idea that the upgrade from Hayward to a healthy Kawhi is incremental is nuts. A healthy Leonard is a top 3 player, potential MVP candidate. I love me some Hayward, but he is borderline all NBA at his best.
 

scottyno

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I hold onto what we have going on here. I've been a Brown believer since he was drafted. Brown is on a trajectory to be Kawhi. I'd be nervous of Kwahi leaving for the Lakers if no extension was signed right away. Speaking of an extension, I would want no part of paying this guy the 5-year $219 mill super max deal that he's rumored to be wanting and is actually eligible for.
He wouldn't be eligible for that once he was traded, only if he stays with the Spurs, a theoretical extension would be more like 4-140
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Minnesota passed on drafting Curry TWICE. Indiana traded Kawhi. Ten teams passed on Klay Thompson. Anyone could have put a better package together for Kyrie than Isiah Thomas. The opportunities are there to build competitive teams, just like they’ve always been. It’s not Lebron’s fault or Golden States that the rest for the league has poor management and inept ownership.
 

triniSox

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Shooting is kind of important in today’s NBA. Murray has hit 18 three pointers in his NBA career. He is younger so in 3 years the equation may be different but right now, Rozier is a superior player and almost every NBA GM would prefer him to Murray in a vacuum.
Shooting is indeed important but IMO the Spurs would prefer Murray over Rozier because of upside if he develops his shot like they hope he does. My opinion is the Spurs won't see Rozier as valuable on their team - but Rozier will be valuable to other teams.
 

BigSoxFan

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Shooting is indeed important but IMO the Spurs would prefer Murray over Rozier because of upside if he develops his shot like they hope he does. My opinion is the Spurs won't see Rozier as valuable on their team - but Rozier will be valuable to other teams.
I think you may be right but I also think contract situation plays a large role there. But if I’m choosing a PG for next year, I’m taking Rozier by a decent margin.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Preach. The downside is not worth the incremental upgrade.
Incremental?

I know were all high on this team, but come on. Kawhi is an MVP caliber player. Is Brown even a top 50 player?

I see people saying that Browns trajectory is Kawhi. That's some serious koolaid and wishcasting. I know the last few seasons have been odd, but you dont get shots at Durants, Lebrons, and Kawhi's very often. You make a Kawhi for Brown deal every day of the week.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Do we even know if Kawhi is the same player after this injury? I'd be very hesitant given the injury and the strangeness that followed it.
 

Jimbodandy

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Some people, including in this thread, don't factor in defense whatsoever. This is why Kyrie is a top 8 player here, Brown is meh, and Rozier is way better than Murray.

If Kawhi is dealt for, I'm going to assume that Danny knows something big that we don't know. Because trading real assets for a guy who just lost a year of his prime somewhat inexplicably, seems to have his heart set on LA, and can't get along with Pop and that outfit scares the shit out of me.

I'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable if the injury and corresponding recovery timeline were more typical and clear and if there were any indicators that KL would consider staking a long term claim here.
 

JCizzle

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Incremental?

I know were all high on this team, but come on. Kawhi is an MVP caliber player. Is Brown even a top 50 player?

I see people saying that Browns trajectory is Kawhi. That's some serious koolaid and wishcasting. I know the last few seasons have been odd, but you dont get shots at Durants, Lebrons, and Kawhi's very often. You make a Kawhi for Brown deal every day of the week.
Incremental, if healthy, is poorly worded on my part, but this guy just had a very...odd year last year with his own teammates calling him out. Who knows if he's even going to be healthy next year, let alone willing to commit to Boston over LA. If it's Brown, he is cost controlled and locked in for years, it would be a very aggressive gamble. For Hayward, at least we all saw his injury and know exactly what it is, who knows what the hell is going on with Kawhi
 
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Jed Zeppelin

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Kawhi already knows where he’s going. I know Pop won’t deal with the Lakers etc etc but the players have the power now and I now believe he and LeBron have been in talks for some time about where they’d like to play next and with whom, just as LeBron did with The Decision 1.0.

All of which is to say that we can put together trade proposals, but I’m just not sure it matters. Ainge wouldn’t make a trade without the commitment. His first attempt at KG was rebuffed because he wouldn’t commit, so Ainge went and got Ray first to force the issue. We already have an amazing team, so if Kawhi won’t commit, you tip your cap and let it go. I firmly believe these guys already know. Ainge is the flexibility king, so it would have to be Kyrie for Kawhi or bust. A trade around Jaylen without a commitment is a total non-starter. But it doesn’t matter, because he already knows where he’s going.
 

Moonlight Graham

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If I were the Spurs, I would not trade him. If he refuses to play, that would be potential career suicide. How many players other than Jordan have come back to an elite level without playing for 2 years?
 

BigSoxFan

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Some people, including in this thread, don't factor in defense whatsoever. This is why Kyrie is a top 8 player here, Brown is meh, and Rozier is way better than Murray.
This is just a silly take. Nobody thinks Brown is meh and I can guarantee you having lived in SA that I’ve watched a ton more of Dejounte Murray than you so nice try. What Rozier showed in the playoffs is a level that Murray has never reached. Murray can’t shoot and he doesn’t create. Rozier is no John Stockton but he’s better than Murray. So, he’s a far superior offensive player. If you disagree, show your work.

If we’re talking projections, then it’s obviously much closer due to age.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Kawhi already knows where he’s going. I know Pop won’t deal with the Lakers etc etc but the players have the power now and I now believe he and LeBron have been in talks for some time about where they’d like to play next and with whom, just as LeBron did with The Decision 1.0.

All of which is to say that we can put together trade proposals, but I’m just not sure it matters. Ainge wouldn’t make a trade without the commitment. His first attempt at KG was rebuffed because he wouldn’t commit, so Ainge went and got Ray first to force the issue. We already have an amazing team, so if Kawhi won’t commit, you tip your cap and let it go. I firmly believe these guys already know. Ainge is the flexibility king, so it would have to be Kyrie for Kawhi or bust. A trade around Jaylen without a commitment is a total non-starter. But it doesn’t matter, because he already knows where he’s going.
Yeah, this is traditional thinking, but I'm not biting. If the Celtics get Kawhi this season and he doesnt go to LAL, my assumption is after a PG and LBJ contract, he no longer will fit under the cap in a year from now. If he misses his landing with LAL this year, I assume he plays for the best fit the following year. Someone with more knowledge of LAL cap situation could correct me here, though.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Yeah, this is traditional thinking, but I'm not biting. If the Celtics get Kawhi this season and he doesnt go to LAL, my assumption is after a PG and LBJ contract, he no longer will fit under the cap in a year from now. If he misses his landing with LAL this year, I assume he plays for the best fit the following year. Someone with more knowledge of LAL cap situation could correct me here, though.
San Antonio is a potential wrench in the works. Buford/Pop is one of the League’s great power couples and if anyone thinks they can navigate this on their own terms, it’s them.

I’ll admit I’ve grown cynical about player movement in this league. It’s an odd dance for sure, like, would Kawhi really bail after winning a title in Boston, for example?

I love love love Jaylen Brown but would trade him for Kawhi in a heartbeat to go win a title, so obviously I have some complicated feelings on the issue. But I also remember agonizing over Ryan Gomes being part of the KG trade* so, ya know.

*Obviously Jaylen is about infinite levels above Gomes by every metric.
 

snowmanny

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Can the Celtics sign and trade Smart in a Kawhi deal? If he's a one-year rental, giving up Brown or Kyrie (unless we are sure Kyrie is also gone) seems nuts.
 

BigSoxFan

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Whoever mentioned Sacramento for Kahwi: Mannix said they’re interested and dangling the #2 pick. Amazing times we’re living in.
That would certainly not be good news for the pick. With that said, Doncic and SA would be a perfect match.
 

mcpickl

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Yeah, this is traditional thinking, but I'm not biting. If the Celtics get Kawhi this season and he doesnt go to LAL, my assumption is after a PG and LBJ contract, he no longer will fit under the cap in a year from now. If he misses his landing with LAL this year, I assume he plays for the best fit the following year. Someone with more knowledge of LAL cap situation could correct me here, though.
The Clippers will very likely have cap space next summer.

If he just wants to be in LA, he'll still have his opportunity.
 

Moonlight Graham

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The risk isn’t him refusing to play, it’s letting him walk without getting anything in return.
That's the Spurs' risk. The risk to Kawhi is that they send him home if he doesn't give his best. If he does give his best, they get Kawhi at his best (and maybe they win a ring). Even if that's only for one year, it's better than the pu pu platter that usually amounts to the return when trading a shooting-their-way-out-of-town superstar.
 

scottyno

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Can the Celtics sign and trade Smart in a Kawhi deal? If he's a one-year rental, giving up Brown or Kyrie (unless we are sure Kyrie is also gone) seems nuts.
If the Spurs want him, and Smart agrees to go there before signing any other offer sheets they can. But if you're not giving up Brown or Kyrie then I find it hard to believe no other team would top that offer. You'd have to include at least either the Kings or Grizz pick, and given the choice I'd rather give up Brown and keep those picks if I'm getting Kawhi.
 

axx

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Kawhi already knows where he’s going. I know Pop won’t deal with the Lakers etc etc but the players have the power now and I now believe he and LeBron have been in talks for some time about where they’d like to play next and with whom, just as LeBron did with The Decision 1.0.
This isn't a S&T situation though. Forcing himself out, sure, but only to the Lakers is a bit much. It'd probably be in their best interest if he held out as opposed to trading him to the Lakers.
 

cheech13

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Of course the Kings are interested. Somehow the Spurs are going to turn this mess into Doncic and cap room to sign someone like George.
 

Ed Hillel

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Kawhi would probably just sit out if they try to trade him to Sacramento. Offering the 2 for a guy ditching you after a year you’ll miss the playoffs anyway is also beyond insane.
 
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JCizzle

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Kawhi would probably just sit out if they try to trade him to Sacramento. Offering the 2 for a guy ditching you after a year you’ll miss the playoffs anyway is also beyond insane.
Almost as if all the chatter about him all year from his teammates was true... Hmm...
 

Eddie Jurak

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Trading Hayward, rather than Kyrie, for Kawhi is in my opinion more likely because the former is more of a 1:1 swap. Our injured player for their injured player, and they’re both wings. If you trade Kyrie, now you need to re-sign Smart or you have a big drop off to Rozier. In a vacuum I think it makes the team significantly better (assuming Kawhi is healthy).

I completely understand the optics around the league if you trade Hayward, but the guy just missed an entire year, will likely only play 2 seasons and then opt out and could leave on his own accord. It’s not like he’d be banishing the guy to Sacramento or some other terrible situation. If you have the opportunity to trade a Top 20 guy for a Top 5-8 guy, you do it.
1. Kyrie isn't a wing.
2. Hayward is not getting dealt - Ainge is soulless, but not stupid.
 

Reverend

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We also don't even know yet what a fully weaponized Hayward reunited with his old coach might look like.

Yet.
 

TheDeuce222

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In order to make the money work trading Hayward (29M) for Leonard (19M), the Celtics would have to take on Patty Mills. Beyond the fact that it’s an idea that is DOA for reasons stated by many others upthread, having to take that long Mills contract makes it even more unlikely.
 

Ed Hillel

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No he wouldn't. If he doesn't play next year, wherever he is, he is going to lose millions upon millions of dollars
Why? He can “hurt himself” again and either force a trade or put on some private showings next offseason and convince the Lakers he’s worth the max. Maybe he’ll play during parts of the year to show off, but he doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s going all out, or anything close to it, in Sacramento.

Maybe it depends on one’s view of this past year. My belief is he was healthy and it was all a selfish powerplay. I don’t particularly want him on Boston, but of course I’d root for him should he come over. I don’t particularly like or trust Kyrie, either, for example.
In order to make the money work trading Hayward (29M) for Leonard (19M), the Celtics would have to take on Patty Mills. Beyond the fact that it’s an idea that is DOA for reasons stated by many others upthread, having to take that long Mills contract makes it even more unlikely.
Yes, it would have to be Kyrie or Brown. I’d choose the former, only because I don’t trust him not to bolt. Losing Brown and assets and then having Kyrie and Leonard leave sure would suck.

They’d be really good next year, though...
 

TheDeuce222

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Do you really need to include picks if Brown is involved? Who can offer better than Brown? I guess maybe Lonzo and Ingram, but there’s no Deng contract eating up 15+% of their space next season. Additionally, if offers are close in value, Pop probably sends him to not LA and the East.
Yeah, I was thinking more Celtics 2018 pick/potential Clippers pick than the premium Kings and Grizz picks. You can certainly make an argument that just Brown and Rozier (plus Morris and the young filler guys) should be enough, but depends on the other offers. If Popovich and Buford are bullish on Kuzma and Ingram, they might prefer Ingram/Kuzma/Deng/25 and a future Lakers #1. If Philly gets in the bidding, they also might put some combination of Covington/Saric/Fultz/#10 that could be quite attractive.

Regardless, trading Brown and Rozier and picks for a guy you have health and long term commitment questions on is hugely risky. But Ainge is a guy that has consistently taken those kinds of risks on talent. Gonna be very interesting.
 

Reverend

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Why? He can “hurt himself” again and either force a trade or put on some private showings next offseason and convince the Lakers he’s worth the max. Maybe he’ll play during parts of the year to show off, but he doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s going all out, or anything close to it, in Sacramento.

Maybe it depends on one’s view of this past year. My belief is he was healthy and it was all a selfish powerplay. I don’t particularly want him on Boston, but of course I’d root for him should he come over. I don’t particularly like or trust Kyrie, either, for example.

Yes, it would have to be Kyrie or Brown. I’d choose the former, only because I don’t trust him not to bolt. Losing Brown and assets and then having Kyrie and Leonard leave sure would suck.

They’d be really good next year, though...
Did a basketball player... hurt you?