Jurassic World 3: Where the Dinosaurs have Quad Injuries and Hate Their Shoe Deals

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Starting to wonder how many of the KL stories are actually click bait and not grounded in truth. There is no way he would sit.
I think a lot of it is clickbait - people just copying other people's stories - but for the Wojos and the Shams and other reporters, a lot of the information released is part of the negotiation process. E.g., Happy Walters would be committing malpractice if he didn't try to get someone to print stories about teams being interested in Marcus Smart.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I continue to think that you live on a fairly small island in the LeBron/Kawhi debate. That's not to denigrate Leonard. Saying he isn't better than the best player in the game isn't an insult. (KD fans might have an argument there, I know.)
I mean, it's tough to argue that Kawhi (when healthy) has been the better player over the past 4-5 years, but again, I think people tend to underplay how much better it is to be 27 than 34 in the NBA. By way of comparison: I think it's unrealistic to expect Jayson Tatum to be as good as peak Kawhi this year, or even next year, but I think by age 27 he's a pretty good bet to be better than Kawhi at age 34 (assuming reasonable health all around).

One could argue that LeBron's anomalous since his boxscore numbers at age 33 showed no decline. He obviously pays fanatical attention to his body, has ridiculous genes, and probably has excellent pharmacists to boot, all of which will no doubt help in his efforts to ward off Father Time. But it's worth noting that his advanced stats last year did actually indicate decline. By RPM, he slipped to #12, and that number is buoyed significantly by RPM's generous boxscore correction. His on-court impact last year in terms of wins and losses was shockingly meh by his lofty career standards. Put simply, he just played an entire 82-game season plus 22 playoff games in which his team was not substantially better than the opposing team when he was on the floor (+1.6 points per 100 possessions better than the opponent in the regular season, -1.1 points worse in the playoffs).

We can certainly blame his crap teammates for a lot of of that, but I think it's also reasonable to surmise that at age 33 his defense (half the game) has fallen off significantly, and will continue to do so as he enters his mid-30s.

Also, this:

 
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lovegtm

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I mean, it's tough to argue that Kawhi (when healthy) has been the better player over the past 4-5 years, but again, I think people tend to underplay how much better it is to be 27 than 34 in the NBA. By way of comparison: I think it's unrealistic to expect Jason Tatum to be as good as peak Kawhi this year, or even next year, but I think by age 27 he's a pretty good bet to be better than Kawhi at age 34 (assuming reasonable health all around).

One could argue that LeBron's anomalous since his boxscore numbers at age 33 showed no decline. He obviously pays fanatical attention to his body, has ridiculous genes, and probably has excellent pharmacists to boot, all of which will no doubt help in his efforts to ward off Father Time. But it's worth noting that his advanced stats last year did actually indicate decline. By RPM, he slipped to #12, and that number is buoyed significantly by RPM's generous boxscore correction. His on-court impact last year in terms of wins and losses was shockingly meh by his lofty career standards. Put simply, he just played an entire 82 games season plus 22 playoff games in which his team was not substantially better than the opposing team when he was on the floor (+1.6 points per 100 possessions better than the opponent in the regular season, -1.1 points worse in the playoffs).

We can certainly blame his crap teammates for a lot of of that, but I think it's also reasonable to surmise that at age 33 his defense (half the game) has fallen off significantly, and will continue to do so as he enters his mid-30s.

Also, this:

Totally agree with all this. People forget how good Kawhi made the 2016-2017 Spurs. I've never seen a team as pissed about an injury as they were about his against the Dubs. Pop clearly thought that with Kawhi they had a strong chance against maybe the greatest team ever.

That was with no one even at the caliber of Kyrie and Love (I guess Aldridge?) on the team. That series and injury should loom much larger as one of the great NBA "what ifs" than it currently does. Kawhi was possibly already the best player in the NBA, and then the injury and weirdness happened.
 

Kliq

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I mean, it's tough to argue that Kawhi (when healthy) has been the better player over the past 4-5 years, but again, I think people tend to underplay how much better it is to be 27 than 34 in the NBA. By way of comparison: I think it's unrealistic to expect Jason Tatum to be as good as peak Kawhi this year, or even next year, but I think by age 27 he's a pretty good bet to be better than Kawhi at age 34 (assuming reasonable health all around).

One could argue that LeBron's anomalous since his boxscore numbers at age 33 showed no decline. He obviously pays fanatical attention to his body, has ridiculous genes, and probably has excellent pharmacists to boot, all of which will no doubt help in his efforts to ward off Father Time. But it's worth noting that his advanced stats last year did actually indicate decline. By RPM, he slipped to #12, and that number is buoyed significantly by RPM's generous boxscore correction. His on-court impact last year in terms of wins and losses was shockingly meh by his lofty career standards. Put simply, he just played an entire 82 games season plus 22 playoff games in which his team was not substantially better than the opposing team when he was on the floor (+1.6 points per 100 possessions better than the opponent in the regular season, -1.1 points worse in the playoffs).

We can certainly blame his crap teammates for a lot of of that, but I think it's also reasonable to surmise that at age 33 his defense (half the game) has fallen off significantly, and will continue to do so as he enters his mid-30s.

Also, this:

I've never seen that GIF before; it's glorious. Why Kawhi never latched onto the "Kingslayer" moniker after the Finals will always be a mystery.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I've never seen that GIF before; it's glorious. Why Kawhi never latched onto the "Kingslayer" moniker after the Finals will always be a mystery.
Yeah, it sounds superficial, but some ways I think the failure of the Spurs to enthusiastically market him as such is emblematic of why that relationship soured so badly. There was obviously a lot more to it than just the Tony Parker diss and the desire to move back to SoCal. My sense based on what I've read and heard is that the Spurs' quasi-fascistic insistence on players doing things the "Spurs Way" — including controlling their brand, nicknames, endorsements, health management, shoe deals, etc. — was a much bigger issue. All the A-list superstars (LeBron, KD, Steph, Kyrie, e.g.) have their own brands, career objectives, PR teams, etc. that usually dovetail with but are not always controlled by the team they happen to play for. Pop and the Spurs seem less inclined than most other teams to abide that.

And yes, that is one of my all-time favorite GIFs! Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words. It'd legit make me wanna cry if I were a Spurs fan.
 

Caspir

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Yeah, it sounds superficial, but some ways I think the failure of the Spurs to enthusiastically market him as such is emblematic of why that relationship soured so badly. There was obviously a lot more to it than just the Tony Parker diss and the desire to move back to SoCal. My sense based on what I've read and heard is that the Spurs' quasi-fascistic insistence on players doing things the "Spurs Way" — including controlling their brand, nicknames, endorsements, health management, shoe deals, etc. — was a much bigger issue. All the A-list superstars (LeBron, KD, Steph, Kyrie, e.g.) have their own brands, career objectives, PR teams, etc. that usually dovetail with but are not always controlled by the team they happen to play for. Pop and the Spurs seem less inclined than most other teams to abide that.

And yes, that is one of my all-time favorite GIFs! Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words. It'd legit make me wanna cry if I were a Spurs fan.
How did the Spurs prevent Leonard from getting his own shoe deal? Or from marketing himself? If it is such a "players league" and more accurately, a star's league, what power does San Antonio have to stop him from doing whatever he wants off the court?

Exit, more to the point, he seems like a recluse that happens to be a great basketball player. I don't think the Spurs hindered his marketing potential. I think he made a decision to be less "out there" similar to Mike Trout.
 

sonofgodcf

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Kawhi has had a deal with the Nike/Jordan brand for a while now. He's the first signature athlete with Nike to actually get his own logo on a Jordan branded shoe (the "klaw" thing).

He might be looking for a better deal with Nike, but the Spurs were likely never part of the conversation and certainly can't influence what KL does (I mean, they can choose not to promote him, but I don't think that matters on a national scale. Pretty sure Nike had a few marketing dollars lying around...).
 

DrewDawg

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He might be looking for a better deal with Nike, but the Spurs were likely never part of the conversation and certainly can't influence what KL does (I mean, they can choose not to promote him, but I don't think that matters on a national scale. Pretty sure Nike had a few marketing dollars lying around...).
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22640451/kawhi-leonard-talks-jordan-brand-new-shoe-deal-stalled-sources-say

Jordan Brand, which is a division of Nike, and Leonard's representatives came "very close" to completion on a new four-year extension worth more than $20 million. But discussions broke down abruptly because representatives for Leonard didn't feel that the new deal reflected the forward's accomplishments and standing within the league, sources said.
 

sonofgodcf

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Are you posting that article to suggest that the Spurs are responsible for his "standing within the league"? Seems more like a dispute between Nike and KL over his value. And whatever people want to think about him as a player, his ability to sell shoes is yet to be proven.
 

Sam Ray Not

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How did the Spurs prevent Leonard from getting his own shoe deal? Or from marketing himself? If it is such a "players league" and more accurately, a star's league, what power does San Antonio have to stop him from doing whatever he wants off the court?

Exit, more to the point, he seems like a recluse that happens to be a great basketball player. I don't think the Spurs hindered his marketing potential. I think he made a decision to be less "out there" similar to Mike Trout.
Kawhi has had a deal with the Nike/Jordan brand for a while now. He's the first signature athlete with Nike to actually get his own logo on a Jordan branded shoe (the "klaw" thing).

He might be looking for a better deal with Nike, but the Spurs were likely never part of the conversation and certainly can't influence what KL does (I mean, they can choose not to promote him, but I don't think that matters on a national scale. Pretty sure Nike had a few marketing dollars lying around...).
All good points — I went overboard with the shoe and branding stuff. I was mostly riffing off half-remembered stuff about his health situation from the Shelburne / Wright article a couple months ago.

The frustration from Leonard's camp emanates from the resistance it felt it encountered from the Spurs over considering outside opinions, and the public questioning of the situation by Popovich, according to multiple sources.

Said one source close to Leonard, "The Spurs feel that they hire the best, that they do it better than anyone else. They deserve to have that reputation and that kind of ego. But they're just not very open-minded. They don't like others messing with their players."

None of which has anything to do with shoes, or how the Spurs should have or could have better optimized his brand. But I think it does touch on the somewhat controlling and overbearing nature of the "Spurs Way" (or at least the perception of it as such from Kawhi's camp).
 
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DrewDawg

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Are you posting that article to suggest that the Spurs are responsible for his "standing within the league"? Seems more like a dispute between Nike and KL over his value. And whatever people want to think about him as a player, his ability to sell shoes is yet to be proven.
No.

There was talk about his shoe deal so I posted an article about it.

I’m taking no position on the Great Debate of our time.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Are you posting that article to suggest that the Spurs are responsible for his "standing within the league"? Seems more like a dispute between Nike and KL over his value. And whatever people want to think about him as a player, his ability to sell shoes is yet to be proven.
Kawhi is more popular worldwide today for NOT playing basketball than he was in San Antonio when he did play basketball. I'd imagine that his shoes now are an enormous hit.
 

the moops

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I am loving this deal from TOR persepctive. Even a gimpy Kawhi + Green is going to offer similar value to Derozan. If Kawhi is motivated and healthy, this TOR team is going to be a nightmare to play against.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Rogers Sportnet host tweeted that Raptors and KL and his camp having "positive, forward looking" conversations.


Raptors connected with Leonard and agent etc. multiple times and separately on Wednesday, according to league sources. All conversations positive, forward-looking.
Grange also wrote this interesting article on Ujiri's call to DeRozen to tell him he was traded. Apparently, Ujiri was in Nairobi when this happened.
 

lovegtm

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I'm never going to count Masai out. I think there's an 90%+ chance he can get Kawhi jacked up to play this year, and much higher than people think that he can get him to re-sign. We also joke about Drake, but his presence has definitely been a real thing in making Toronto feel like a big-time, relevant city. The girl and party situation in Toronto is also quite good if you're a young, wealthy dude.

I still think the Celtics are better, just because of how much offensive and defensive talent they'll put on the floor, and how well Brad will integrate it. But the Raps are going to be tough.
 

nighthob

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The Atlantic Division is likely to produce the top three seeds in the East, and both Boston and Toronto are legitimate 60+ win teams next year. But Boston's still winning the title.
 

Big John

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I'm sticking to my prediction that Kawhi is traded to the Lakers, especially if the Lakers get off to a slow start. I don't see how LA can waste a season of prime LeBron with the hodgepodge of a roster they have now.
 

Big John

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Toronto is going to trade Kawhi to LA when they’re 40-16 at the deadline and fighting Boston for the #1 seed?
That's a dream at the moment. Even with Kawhi, it seems to me that the Raptors as presently constituted have a nice second string with an aging first string and a rookie head coach-- and they are still not good enough to beat the Celtics. The Raptors need to rebuild, and Lowry, Ibaka and KL are all wasting assets.

It's all smiles now because Kawhi wants to get paid, and maybe the fact that PG13 elected to stay in OKC gives the Raptors some hope. But chances are that Kawhi will turn out to be a rental and may cost Masai Ujiri his job if they lose him for nothing.
 

snowmanny

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That's a dream at the moment. Even with Kawhi, it seems to me that the Raptors as presently constituted have a nice second string with an aging first string and a rookie head coach-- and they are still not good enough to beat the Celtics. The Raptors need to rebuild, and Lowry, Ibaka and KL are all wasting assets.

It's all smiles now because Kawhi wants to get paid, and maybe the fact that PG13 elected to stay in OKC gives the Raptors some hope. But chances are that Kawhi will turn out to be a rental and may cost Masai Ujiri his job if they lose him for nothing.
If the Raptors make it to Game 7 of the ECF it will be the greatest season in their history.

Im guessing they think they might have the best team in the East, and, especially if GH and KI aren’t healthy, they might be right.

They also might think that the best way to have a great team is to start with a transcendent player, and that now that they have one it is reasonable to fight tooth and nail to keep him. I mean, (assuming health) they have the best player in the conference for the first time in their history: why would they quit early on that?
 

Sam Ray Not

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Vegas still not really buying into the fully fledged Raptors, fwiw. Per Bovada...

GSW -175
BOS +550
LAL +700
HOU +750
PHI +1600
TOR +1800
OKC +4000
SAS +6600
UTA +9000
MIL/MIN/IND/DEN/POR/WAS +10000

The Raps look like the best bet on that list to me, were I a betting man. I might buy me some Utah, too. Lakers, Spurs and Wolves (even at +10000) strike me as particularly bad bets.
 
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Big John

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I'll take both Milwaukee and Indiana. Two small bets for a big potential payoff. Would anyone be surprised if either of those teams-- with Budenholzer coaching one and McMillan the other--finished ahead of the Raptors? Nick Nurse is an unknown quantity, and you can't assume that guys like Anunoby, Siakam and Van Vleet will have banner years this time around.
 

lovegtm

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I'll take both Milwaukee and Indiana. Two small bets for a big potential payoff. Would anyone be surprised if either of those teams-- with Budenholzer coaching one and McMillan the other--finished ahead of the Raptors? Nick Nurse is an unknown quantity, and you can't assume that guys like Anunoby, Siakam and Van Vleet will have banner years this time around.
To win a championship? A team like Milwaukee and Indiana winning a title would require an injury epidemic of biblical proportions. We're talking rivers of blood and frogs jumping out of players throats at midcourt.
 

Big John

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Sure, the odds are long. But I feel the same way about Toronto. Their "transcendant player" managed only 9 games last year. That's 8 more than Gordon Hayward and 51 less than Kyrie Irving. Toronto also lost a 23 ppg scorer and a good young big man in the trade. Do you think the incremental improvement of Kawhi over DeRozan makes them better than Boston, with two stars returning?
 

Bosox1528

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Sure, the odds are long. But I feel the same way about Toronto. Their "transcendant player" managed only 9 games last year. That's 8 more than Gordon Hayward and 51 less than Kyrie Irving. Toronto also lost a 23 ppg scorer and a good young big man in the trade. Do you think the incremental improvement of Kawhi over DeRozan makes them better than Boston, with two stars returning?
The thing is, if Kawhi comes back to 2014-2016 levels, he's not an incremental improvement over DeRozan at all. He's a massive, enormous improvement. DeRozan was always somewhat overrated if you look at the advanced stats.

Now of course, there's also a large chance Kawhi doesn't come back to 2014-16 levels. But the chance that he can is the chance the Raptors can win the title
 

snowmanny

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I would take Boston over Toronto, and probably Philly (over TOR) as well. But it wouldn’t be shocking if Leonard was great, Hayward was 70%, and Embiid got hurt again
 

Big John

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Very little shocks me anymore, and if I had an infallible crystal ball I'd be much richer than I am.

The team that scares me most in the East is Milwaukee, not Toronto or Philadelphia. I think very highly of Budenholzer, and coaching matters in a league where roster turnover is epidemic. And barring injury, Giannis will probably be the best player in the EC and maybe in all of basketball two years from now, whether or not Kawhi decides to catch the last train for the coast.
 

lovegtm

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Sure, the odds are long. But I feel the same way about Toronto. Their "transcendant player" managed only 9 games last year. That's 8 more than Gordon Hayward and 51 less than Kyrie Irving. Toronto also lost a 23 ppg scorer and a good young big man in the trade. Do you think the incremental improvement of Kawhi over DeRozan makes them better than Boston, with two stars returning?
Maybe I'm missing something--isn't this odds to win the championship, not the conference? If it's the latter, I can sort of squint and agree with you.
 

Big John

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Maybe I'm missing something--isn't this odds to win the championship, not the conference? If it's the latter, I can sort of squint and agree with you.
Well, if you are not representing the conference at the end of the EC playoffs, you can't win a championship.
Obviously every EC team is an underdog against Golden State, but don't see how Toronto matches up better against the Warriors than teams like Milwaukee, Indiana or Philadelphia. As the teams in the EC are presently constituted, the best EC matchup for Golden State is Boston.
 

DrewDawg

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Wait—you think Boston is best matchup for Warriors?

That’s 180 degrees from what most folks have said.
 

Big John

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I said Boston would be the least underdog of all the underdogs in a finals series against Golden State. The oddsmakers quoted by Sam Ray Not seem to agree with me.
 

DrewDawg

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Okay, cuz I read "the best EC matchup FOR Golden State is Boston" as the team they'd like to play most--the best matchup FOR them, not as "the best matchup" meaning the best series.

All clear now. Carry on.
 

Big John

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I should have phrased it differently by saying "The EC team with the best chance to beat GS is Boston" or something like that.
 

nighthob

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I’d go the opposite tack and say the western conference team with the best chance of beating Boston is Golden State.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Speaking of odds.....we are approaching the time of year for bowiac's initial Win Total projections which are an annual favorite subject of mine. Timeframe on these? Soon I hope.
 

lovegtm

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Speaking of odds.....we are approaching the time of year for bowiac's initial Win Total projections which are an annual favorite subject of mine. Timeframe on these? Soon I hope.
Yeah, should be fun. Celtics should be quite high, given that the same team is returning, Kyrie improved last year, and Tatum and Brown are more known quantities.
 

benhogan

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Yes, looking forward to seeing Bowiac's win totals. Wonder if he will have Raptors win total higher than the C's? ESPN Insider weighed in with their pythag from last season (*noted below)

Also have interest in seeing win totals for the Lakers, Memphis, Sacremento, Clippers, Rockets, GSW. Plus all the top teams in the East (Indiana, Philly, Mil, Tor) and a morbid curiosity on the Cavs, Nets and Knicks

What was Bowiac's win total for the Celtics pre/ post-Gordon Hayward injury?
I recall somewhere in the mid-low 40s post injury?


*Jeremias Engelmann, ESPN Insider: Fact. The Raptors had significantly more Pythagorean wins -- a better indicator of future success than straight win percentage, as it factors in point differential -- than the Celtics last season. Assuming the Raptors will improve through this trade, even the return of Gordon Hayward and Kyrie Irving won't be enough to fully bridge the gap.
 
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