Jurassic World 3: Where the Dinosaurs have Quad Injuries and Hate Their Shoe Deals

the moops

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The elimination of LeBron already made hem a much better playoff team. I just don't understand how they can "improve a ton" while using the disclaimer that they may (likely imo) win fewer games.
Regular season record, as you have stated hundreds of times in the past, is irrelevant for really good playoff teams.
 

amarshal2

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If we don't all accept that there's a big difference between regular season NBA and playoff NBA this discussion is going to continue to suck.

I don't know if the Raptors improve over 59 wins but they definitely improved as a playoff team. The problem is that they were not a good playoff team. They win during the regular season on depth of talent but when it's time to put your stars on the floor and exploit matchups they were repeatedly exposed. DeRosen was a big part of that and they've gotten better, but it's still not an impressive playoffs lineup in my opinion. Lowry is 2 feet tall and 32. The rest of the guys are more Jae Crowder+ types than guys who can elevate to play with the elite on both ends of the court (I do like OG). I think they would really, really struggle to make a 7th game against a healthy C's. I think several other teams could beat them (philly, Indy, Milwaukee).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Why not just do a three way deal if that’s the case?
The Spurs were NEVER going to help the Lakers become a dynasty now matter how many people said they would take the best deal for their organization. Sometimes (many times?) the best deal is to not create more competition.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If we don't all accept that there's a big difference between regular season NBA and playoff NBA this discussion is going to continue to suck.

I don't know if the Raptors improve over 59 wins but they definitely improved as a playoff team. The problem is that they were not a good playoff team. They win during the regular season on depth of talent but when it's time to put your stars on the floor and exploit matchups they were repeatedly exposed. DeRosen was a big part of that and they've gotten better, but it's still not an impressive playoffs lineup in my opinion. Lowry is 2 feet tall and 32. The rest of the guys are more Jae Crowder+ types than guys who can elevate to play with the elite on both ends of the court (I do like OG). I think they would really, really struggle to make a 7th game against a healthy C's. I think several other teams could beat them (philly, Indy, Milwaukee).
Toronto is 4-0 in playoff series over the past 3 seasons versus non-LeBron opponents. I'd argue that they were not a good playoff team during this time.
 

cheech13

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Best case scenario next year for Toronto is winning the Eastern Conference and pushing the Warriors to six games. They won't be the clear favorites in the East, but they are on that top tier with Boston and Philly. Prior to this deal they were at a real risk at backsliding coming off that disappointing playoff run and integrating a new coach. This shakes things up in a good way. Ujiri continues to be bold and it could pay off huge.

Worst case they flame out in the second round again and Kawhi walks. Even in that scenario I don't think it's a huge loss. We've seen the ceiling of this team. If replacing Derozan with Kawhi doesn't get them over the hump, nothing will and it's time to start the rebuild in earnest.

Hot take time: Are the Spurs going to make the playoffs next year? As of today I'm leaning no.
 
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Kliq

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It’s a big win for Toronto assuming Kawhi is healthy and going to play hard for them. They were probably going to have to break that team up eventually; so swinging for the fences with maybe only a year of Kawhi makes sense. Plus; even if it is technically making the Celtics’ road harder, it makes basketball more interesting for him to go to a place like Toronto and not to LA or Philly or Boston.
 

Sox Puppet

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I wonder how Kyle Lowry is going to feel about playing with the dour, petulant star they got by shanking his best friend.

We saw it with what happened to IT4, but the NBA can be a cold business sometimes.
 

Sam Ray Not

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That's, um, pretty scary. Assuming a reasonably healthy Kawhi, I'd be more than a little concerned if I were you guys. I think they've clearly leapfrogged the Sixers (to the extent they were even behind them) and possibly nosed ahead of the Cs. And yeah, I think they could bother the Warriors too.

To me, two of the top three teams in the NBA are now in the East.
 

JCizzle

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That's, um, pretty scary. Assuming a reasonably healthy Kawhi, I'd be more than a little concerned if I were you guys. I think they've clearly leapfrogged the Sixers (to the extent they were even behind them) and possibly nosed ahead of the Cs. And yeah, I think they could bother the Warriors too.

To me, two of the top three teams in the NBA are now in the East.
I dunno. Assuming health all around, I think the Celtics clearly have more high end talent and an equal amount of versatile depth. Granted I have very green tinted glasses. I agree the Raptors definitely upgraded though, who knows how they'll perform without LeBronto owning the city.

Kyrie
Jaylen
Hayward
Tatum
Horford

Rozier
Smart (?)
Mook
Baynes
Theis
Semi
 

cheech13

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To me, two of the top three teams in the NBA are now in the East.
That's an interesting take. For all the hand-wringing last year about the East-West imbalance, I thought that after the Warriors and Rockets the next four best teams all played in the East (GS, Houston, Cleveland, Boston, Philly, and Toronto). This year three of the top five or top six are again going to be in the East. There's a perception that the conference is worse because they haven't had a serious contender to Golden State and they don't have the back end depth of the West, but at the top it's good. That could be an interesting playoff picture next summer.

Derozan in San Antonio is going to be a major test for analytics. He doesn't rate as a good defender and he's not a good shooter. In fact, that entire Spurs team is going to be very light on shooting and wing defense. It's almost the exact opposite of how you build a modern team. If Pop makes that work it might be his best coaching job yet.
 

BigSoxFan

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Jonas Valanciunas

That's, um, pretty scary. Assuming a reasonably healthy Kawhi, I'd be more than a little concerned if I were you guys. I think they've clearly leapfrogged the Sixers (to the extent they were even behind them) and possibly nosed ahead of the Cs. And yeah, I think they could bother the Warriors too.

To me, two of the top three teams in the NBA are now in the East.
It all comes down to Kawhi. If he stays in Toronto, is healthy, and plays hard, they will be tough. But I'd bet against all that happening. They are going to be a very good defensive team regardless of what happens with him. The question is the offense. Nobody really scares me offensively outside of Kawhi. Lowry is solid but who else is creating offense enough to scare you? Lots of good to very good role players there. Not enough stars if Kawhi doesn't return to form and stay healthy.
 

Jimbodandy

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That's an interesting take. For all the hand-wringing last year about the East-West imbalance, I thought that after the Warriors and Rockets the next four best teams all played in the East (GS, Houston, Cleveland, Boston, Philly, and Toronto). This year three of the top five or top six are again going to be in the East. There's a perception that the conference is worse because they haven't had a serious contender to Golden State and they don't have the back end depth of the West, but at the top it's good. That could be an interesting playoff picture next summer.

Derozan in San Antonio is going to be a major test for analytics. He doesn't rate as a good defender and he's not a good shooter. In fact, that entire Spurs team is going to be very light on shooting and wing defense. It's almost the exact opposite of how you build a modern team. If Pop makes that work it might be his best coaching job yet.
Derozan in SA will be an awesome test alone. Wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of blown minds around here, one way or the other, regardless of what Pop does with the rest of the team.
 

Big John

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I'll be shocked if Kawhi plays a single game for Toronto. My guess is that the Raptors are targeting one of the Lakers young guards-- Ball if they can get him or Hart if they can't-- as Lowry's replacement.

Even with Kawhi they won't get past the Celtics, and except for Horford, all of the key Celtics players are much younger than Lowry, who will be on the block shortly if he isn't already.
 

lovegtm

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Derozan in SA will be an awesome test alone. Wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of blown minds around here, one way or the other, regardless of what Pop does with the rest of the team.
He definitely fits a mold that SA seems to target: guys with strong base basketball skills who haven't deployed those skills in a way that maximizes basketball value. Rudy Gay was similar.
 

bakahump

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At the end of the day better for the Celts that he went (is going?) to Toronto then Philly. Yes?

Toronto had to lose their best player (granted if healthy they got a better replacement). The Sixers OTOH would have added high end talent, and if rumors where true, lose nothing of significance from their team this year.
 

cheech13

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I'll be shocked if Kawhi plays a single game for Toronto. My guess is that the Raptors are targeting one of the Lakers young guards-- Ball if they can get him or Hart if they can't-- as Lowry's replacement.

Even with Kawhi they won't get past the Celtics, and except for Horford, all of the key Celtics players are much younger than Lowry, who will be on the block shortly if he isn't already.
There's a zero percent chance that the Raptors moved the face of their franchise and best player in the organization's history just to get a guy they could flip into other pieces. That makes no sense at all and it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity and risk. Now if they are the four seed at the deadline and Kawhi is still unhappy then I could see him get moved again. But before the season? No, I just don't see it.
 

lovegtm

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As I process this trade more, the worse it looks for San Antonio. I honestly don't get it, and I was one of the people earlier this thread saying that we would definitely be moved, and for a disappointing return.

I mean, #26ish picks are what you get for taking DeMarre Carroll into cap space, and even then they're not a lot. It's unclear whether DeRozan is even much of an asset on that contract, and Poetl is nice I guess, but not as the centerpiece of a Kawhi deal.

I can't figure out how this offer possibly tops Covington/Saric/Miami 2021. Memphis or Sac pick on their own blow this deal out of the water. The only thing I can think of is that Pop is completely unwilling to do any sort of rebuild, which makes sense from his point of view, but is awful for the Spurs.

To be clear, I'm much happier with Kawhi in Toronto than in Philly, just don't get the deal.
 

the moops

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I can't figure out how this offer possibly tops Covington/Saric/Miami 2021. Memphis or Sac pick on their own blow this deal out of the water. The only thing I can think of is that Pop is completely unwilling to do any sort of rebuild, which makes sense from his point of view, but is awful for the Spurs.
Well, we have no idea whether Covington/Saric/MIA 21 was offered. Even if so, I disagree that one is substantially better than the other. If SAS thinks they can help Derozan figure out his defense, then there is a slim chance way that any of those PHI assets come close to being as good as him.

Likewise, we haven't heard that MEM or SAC pick were ever on the table.

I also think people need to stop lumping the MEM and SAC pick together. They are vastly different assets. The slight chance that the SAC pick does not convey because of the protection is dwarfed by the fact that the MEM pick is likely to convey in the next two years and be a late lotto pick.
 

cheech13

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As I process this trade more, the worse it looks for San Antonio. I honestly don't get it, and I was one of the people earlier this thread saying that we would definitely be moved, and for a disappointing return.

I mean, #26ish picks are what you get for taking DeMarre Carroll into cap space, and even then they're not a lot. It's unclear whether DeRozan is even much of an asset on that contract, and Poetl is nice I guess, but not as the centerpiece of a Kawhi deal.

I can't figure out how this offer possibly tops Covington/Saric/Miami 2021. Memphis or Sac pick on their own blow this deal out of the water. The only thing I can think of is that Pop is completely unwilling to do any sort of rebuild, which makes sense from his point of view, but is awful for the Spurs.

To be clear, I'm much happier with Kawhi in Toronto than in Philly, just don't get the deal.
This all depends on what your view is of DeMar DeRozan. Among those that are more analytically-minded, like this board and NBA Twitter, DeRozan isn't thought very highly of, and that's fair given how poor he measures out by the advanced metrics. But look at it from a bigger picture: He's a 4x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, and 20+ PPG scorer. He just finished a season where he was the best player on a team that finished first in its conference. Those aren't empty accomplishments. In fact, he's probably far and away the best player that was offered to the Spurs by any team. Per reports, Boston wouldn't offer any of their top five, LAL wouldn't include Ingram, and the Sixers wouldn't trade Fultz. Even Portland, way on the outside in terms of tradable assets and in need of a change, wouldn't include Lillard or McCollum. SAS wanted a guy that can be the best player on a contender as they weren't interested in a full rebuild. In their eyes, they got one.
 

lovegtm

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This all depends on what your view is of DeMar DeRozan. Among those that are more analytically-minded, like this board and NBA Twitter, DeRozan isn't thought very highly of, and that's fair given how poor he measures out by the advanced metrics. But look at it from a bigger picture: He's a 4x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, and 20+ PPG scorer. He just finished a season where he was the best player on a team that finished first in its conference. Those aren't empty accomplishments. In fact, he's probably far and away the best player that was offered to the Spurs by any team. Per reports, Boston wouldn't offer any of their top five, LAL wouldn't include Ingram, and the Sixers wouldn't trade Fultz. Even Portland, way on the outside in terms of tradable assets and in need of a change, wouldn't include Lillard or McCollum. SAS wanted a guy that can be the best player on a contender as they weren't interested in a full rebuild. In their eyes, they got one.
If that is the case, they need LASIK.
 

Tony C

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This all depends on what your view is of DeMar DeRozan. Among those that are more analytically-minded, like this board and NBA Twitter, DeRozan isn't thought very highly of, and that's fair given how poor he measures out by the advanced metrics. But look at it from a bigger picture: He's a 4x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, and 20+ PPG scorer. He just finished a season where he was the best player on a team that finished first in its conference. Those aren't empty accomplishments. In fact, he's probably far and away the best player that was offered to the Spurs by any team. Per reports, Boston wouldn't offer any of their top five, LAL wouldn't include Ingram, and the Sixers wouldn't trade Fultz. Even Portland, way on the outside in terms of tradable assets and in need of a change, wouldn't include Lillard or McCollum. SAS wanted a guy that can be the best player on a contender as they weren't interested in a full rebuild. In their eyes, they got one.
I thought L.A.'s offer was Ingram (and a 1st rounder)? All rumor and speculation, anyway...and your point still holds one way or the other.
 

lexrageorge

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At the end of the day better for the Celts that he went (is going?) to Toronto then Philly. Yes?

Toronto had to lose their best player (granted if healthy they got a better replacement). The Sixers OTOH would have added high end talent, and if rumors where true, lose nothing of significance from their team this year.
Agree. Pairing Kawhi up with Simmons and Embiid could have made Philly the favorite in the East this coming season. Toronto remains formidable, but now appears to be very much "in the pack" with Philly, Boston, et al.
 

cheech13

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I thought L.A.'s offer was Ingram (and a 1st rounder)? All rumor and speculation, anyway...and your point still holds one way or the other.
Can't say that I've heard that. Zach Lowe said in his column that the Lakers asked for Ingram, but that he wasn't available. Kevin O'Connor said something similar in his piece on Ingram that ran a few weeks ago. We don't really know what was discussed, but most of the good reporters out there have said that Ingram was the major sticking point in their talks.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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As I process this trade more, the worse it looks for San Antonio. I honestly don't get it, and I was one of the people earlier this thread saying that we would definitely be moved, and for a disappointing return.

I mean, #26ish picks are what you get for taking DeMarre Carroll into cap space, and even then they're not a lot. It's unclear whether DeRozan is even much of an asset on that contract, and Poetl is nice I guess, but not as the centerpiece of a Kawhi deal.

I can't figure out how this offer possibly tops Covington/Saric/Miami 2021. Memphis or Sac pick on their own blow this deal out of the water. The only thing I can think of is that Pop is completely unwilling to do any sort of rebuild, which makes sense from his point of view, but is awful for the Spurs.

To be clear, I'm much happier with Kawhi in Toronto than in Philly, just don't get the deal.
Maybe SAS wanted to send KL to TOR, which is pretty far away (geographically and metaphorically) from LA?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There's a zero percent chance that the Raptors moved the face of their franchise and best player in the organization's history just to get a guy they could flip into other pieces. That makes no sense at all and it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity and risk. Now if they are the four seed at the deadline and Kawhi is still unhappy then I could see him get moved again. But before the season? No, I just don't see it.
Disagree. It's not difficult to look at TOR and the rest of the NBA and conclude that they as constructed before the trade was not going far and Ujiri is a very smart guy. After all, if they don't do the trade, in two more years, DeRozen is going to be looking for another max extension and what do you say to him then?

As such, here's one article that discusses whether the trade was really a DeRozen salary dump: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/07/kawhi-leonard-trade-toronto-raptors-demar-derozan-salary-dump-contract

Similar article here: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/7/18/17587568/toronto-raptors-kawhi-leonard-young-core
 

HomeRunBaker

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I wonder how Kyle Lowry is going to feel about playing with the dour, petulant star they got by shanking his best friend.

We saw it with what happened to IT4, but the NBA can be a cold business sometimes.
There is a decent chance the Raptors don't ever see a playoff game with Kawhi instead viewing this as an opportunity to rebuild. The Spurs wouldn't trade Kawhi to LA but there is nothing preventing the Raptors from doing so for a package surrounding Ball in which case Lowry would be the next guy to be moved (Pelicans?)

I think it was Bobby Marks saying today that he expects the players to strive for a more aggressive no-trade clause in the next CBA negotiations.


Edit: Oooops see this is already begin discussed.
 
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InstaFace

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Whoa, if he sits out more than 30 days they can withhold his 2019 FA status, pending Toronto's consent?

Maybe Popovich is playing 3D chess here: trade him to the farthest-away location from his SD roots that he possibly could, make him so angry that he rage-holds-out, which then costs him his FA window and the ability to sign with LAL, just out of sheer petulance. And pick up an all-star and protected first for his troubles.

Not that I think it's the case but it would be an all-time spite move. Like including Nick Punto in (what then became known as) the Punto trade.
 

djbayko

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That's insane. Losing a year of his near-prime because he didn't get exactly what he wanted when he demanded a trade? Just suck it up in Toronto for one season (not even one year), play your heart out, and then cash in wherever you want.
 

Sox Puppet

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Gotta hand it to Masai Ujiri -- the dude has Saturn Balls.

Getting rid of the winningest coach in franchise history, then following that up by trading their immensely popular face of the franchise without so much as a warning .... all just to take a home run swing at a guy who may refuse to play a single game for them.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Glad Ainge wasn't anywhere near this. I'm sure the latest whispers are just posturing now that he knows he's on a team that's more likely to accommodate a trade to LA, but sitting out would be an all-time dog move. He could have just played one year on the qualifying offer and walked if playing outside LA was such a tragedy.
 

Big John

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KL gave up literally millions because he wanted to be in Southern California. It wasn't just lip service. I'm not sure why folks don't believe him now when he says he doesn't want to be in Toronto.

And since when did DeRozan become so popular? The majority of Raptors fans wanted him gone after his atrocious performance in the playoffs. The mistake Masai Ujiri made was signing him for all that money, not dumping him.

The Raptors were capped out and going nowhere. The only rational course is to break it up and rebuild.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Whoa, if he sits out more than 30 days they can withhold his 2019 FA status, pending Toronto's consent?

Maybe Popovich is playing 3D chess here: trade him to the farthest-away location from his SD roots that he possibly could, make him so angry that he rage-holds-out, which then costs him his FA window and the ability to sign with LAL, just out of sheer petulance. And pick up an all-star and protected first for his troubles.

Not that I think it's the case but it would be an all-time spite move. Like including Nick Punto in (what then became known as) the Punto trade.
He’s from LA and Miami is further away. :)
 

HomeRunBaker

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And since when did DeRozan become so popular? The majority of Raptors fans wanted him gone after his atrocious performance in the playoffs. The mistake Masai Ujiri made was signing him for all that money, not dumping him.

The Raptors were capped out and going nowhere. The only rational course is to break it up and rebuild.
DeRozan has always been hugely popular in Toronto and a community ambassador. They love him to death for being the one United States star who always embraces the city after other's failed them. He's only hated on Internet message boards.
 

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Eh, I think you’re probably underestimating how elite Kawhi was when healthy, how much of the game is defense (half), and how much better it is for an NBA player to be 27 than 34.

Assuming 100% health, if I could take one or the other on the Warriors (or Celtics) for this coming season, I’d definitely take Kawhi. Of course, you can’t assume 100% health — Kawhi’s health issues could be chronic, and LeBron’s ridiculous durability is one of his best qualities. But in terms of upside, give me Kawhi.

Point is that both LeBron and the Lakers are hyped to a degree that far exceeds their relative importance to the league. Yesterday I noticed that *four of the top five* so-called stories on the ESPN hoops page involved LA or LeBron or both. That’s messed up, imho. In a Warrior-less, Rocket-less, Jazz-less, Celtic-less world, I think the Raptors with a healthy Kawhi would kick the asses of the LeLakers in the finals.
The bold is probably true. Not that the degree of hype has any bearing on which of LeBron and Kawhi is actually better when healthy. Hype is never a reliable indicator of relative talent. Look at Jeter and the adulation and gold gloves he received when he was a way below average SS. The media is a wildly imperfect organ.

At any rate, I continue to think that you live on a fairly small island in the LeBron/Kawhi debate. That's not to denigrate Leonard. Saying he isn't better than the best player in the game isn't an insult. (KD fans might have an argument there, I know.)
 

bosox79

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Starting to wonder how many of the KL stories are actually click bait and not grounded in truth. There is no way he would sit.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Starting to wonder how many of the KL stories are actually click bait and not grounded in truth. There is no way he would sit.
So much today is clickbait. Better off following a small handful of connected guys while ignoring the noise.