John Farrell: Not on the Hot Seat

[LostinNJ]

The Miley incident is unimportant -- it's one moment, and it doesn't represent any kind of trend on this team. What's important is that the team is playing lackluster baseball. Many players are underperforming -- so many that you have to wonder if something is wrong at the top.
 
Farrell was a great manager for the 2013 team, which consisted mostly of veteran players in their prime. He has not shown that he is a good manager for young players on their way up or for veterans on their way down -- in other words, he's not a great fit for the 2015 team, or for the next few years either.
 
In my view, they can't move on from him soon enough.

 

[Snoop Soxy Dogg]

The Miley incident is unimportant -- it's one moment, and it doesn't represent any kind of trend on this team. What's important is that the team is playing lackluster baseball. Many players are underperforming -- so many that you have to wonder if something is wrong at the top.
 
Farrell was a great manager for the 2013 team, which consisted mostly of veteran players in their prime. He has not shown that he is a good manager for young players on their way up or for veterans on their way down -- in other words, he's not a great fit for the 2015 team, or for the next few years either.
 
In my view, they can't move on from him soon enough.

 
Certainly the right question. Not sure about the answer. The buck would seem to stop with Cherington, no? Not that I'm calling for him to be fired, but something is off up there, and I think it's probably more due to the way the team is put together than the manager. Why is Allard Baird still here? Firing Farrell is certainly a step, but it's like firing Nieves. It's not a bad move per se, but it doesn't really go to the heart of where the real problem is.

 

[Jnai]

My wife has started to ask when John Farrell is going to be fired. 
 
I mean, she's a baseball fan, but doesn't usually care about who the manager is or what his job status will be. I assume that it is not a good sign when much more casual fans of the team start asking about when the manager is going to be canned.

 

[glennhoffmania]

Isn't one of the most basic ways to evaluate a manager to look at how a team performs relative to expectations?  Forget about specific decisions or incidents  Looking at the big picture I don't see how Farrell hasn't totally failed.  Everyone knew the Phillies would suck so no one is screaming for Sandberg to be fired.  But is there anyone who thought Boston would have the third worst run differential in baseball?  Is there anyone who thought they'd even be in the bottom half?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

If this keeps up Henry is going to have to issue another vote of confidence.
 
Assuming they lose today (down 6-0 already) that means they will slip to 27-37 and will have lost 6 in a row. After a 6-2 start the team has gone 21-35. This is a team with a huge payroll that was expected to compete and at the very least reach the playoffs again.
 
It doesn't even matter if it's his fault, but under these circumstances it becomes almost mandatory to fire the manager. His job is too get things to work. Nothing is working. The team is still playing fundamentally unsound baseball in June. They still can't hit. They still can't pitch. They still can't win. 99% of the time, the manager gets fired.

 

[rembrat]

I feel for him.
 
It's pretty amazing how our Red Sox can chew through staff personnel. The turnover rate has to be one of the highest in baseball.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I don't blame Farrell for this mess and I wouldn't fire him.
 
 
But I think he may be gone.  Like tonight.

 

[sackamano]

Agreed. I can't see this going on much longer without some change, even if it isn't completely warranted.
 
This team is lost.

 

[Doctor G]

Bring up Boles Bradley and Craig.It cant get worse.At this point it doesnt mayter whose fault it is.

 

[ShaneTrot]

If this keeps up Henry is going to have to issue another vote of confidence.
 
Assuming they lose today (down 6-0 already) that means they will slip to 27-37 and will have lost 6 in a row. After a 6-2 start the team has gone 21-35. This is a team with a huge payroll that was expected to compete and at the very least reach the playoffs again.
 
It doesn't even matter if it's his fault, but under these circumstances it becomes almost mandatory to fire the manager. His job is too get things to work. Nothing is working. The team is still playing fundamentally unsound baseball in June. They still can't hit. They still can't pitch. They still can't win. 99% of the time, the manager gets fired.

This post a million times over. Almost half the ML roster makes 8-figures. We are not the Marlins, or the Rays money-wise. Of course, most of those 8-figure guys have sucked and that is on the GM.

 

[Plympton91]

Bring up Boles Bradley and Craig.It cant get worse.At this point it doesnt mayter whose fault it is.

 
Who is Boles?  And why would you bring up Craig?  His batting average is mediocre and his slugging percentage is below 400.   He's still toast.

 

[LostinNJ]

 
Who is Boles?  And why would you bring up Craig?  His batting average is mediocre and his slugging percentage is below 400.   He's still toast.

Craig can help improve our draft position, as he did last year. The worse he does, the more value he has.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
Who is Boles?  And why would you bring up Craig?  His batting average is mediocre and his slugging percentage is below 400.   He's still toast.

 
Who is Boles.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

If this keeps up Henry is going to have to issue another vote of confidence.
 
Assuming they lose today (down 6-0 already) that means they will slip to 27-37 and will have lost 6 in a row. After a 6-2 start the team has gone 21-35. This is a team with a huge payroll that was expected to compete and at the very least reach the playoffs again.
 
It doesn't even matter if it's his fault, but under these circumstances it becomes almost mandatory to fire the manager. His job is too get things to work. Nothing is working. The team is still playing fundamentally unsound baseball in June. They still can't hit. They still can't pitch. They still can't win. 99% of the time, the manager gets fired.

 
I think this is probably right as a prediction, if not a prescription for a rational course of action.  I'm not a fan of his in-game managing, although any shortcomings in that respect likely account for a minuscule portion of the suckage that has been their body of work this year.  At some point, you just have to change horses because doing the same thing ain't working.

I feel for him.
 
It's pretty amazing how our Red Sox can chew through staff personnel. The turnover rate has to be one of the highest in baseball.

Are there actual statistics to check this idea?  I don't follow the FO that closely, although I thought they were a relatively stable bunch (the Tito-to-Bobby-to-Farrell fiasco excepted), and always assumed that departures were a function of the team's success over the past ten years or so.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

Craig can help improve our draft position, as he did last year. The worse he does, the more value he has.

Adding his salary hit back to the LT number is too high a price to pay for his suckage.  Bad ballplayers are easy to find.

 

[Papo The Snow Tiger]

When the purge begins, I hope Farrell isn't the only casualty. I know it's unheard of to can a GM mid season, but Benny has done a shitty job assembling this mess and needs to go too. And I hope Allard Baird's head roles too!

 

[soxhop411]

At this point firing him would be the humane thing to do (even though it's not his fault). It's punishment enough to manage this team.

 

[grimshaw]

I wish they could just reassign him instead of fire him.  Clearly the FO has always had a hard on for the guy since day one.  His spot is probably in a front office somewhere but not in a dugout.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

When the purge begins, I hope Farrell isn't the only casualty. I know it's unheard of to can a GM mid season, but Benny has done a shitty job assembling this mess and needs to go too. And I hope Allard Baird's head roles too!

I would assume they'd want to alter one variable at a time to make sure it's the talent and not the manager, or at least justify it on that basis.  If the boys can't get anything done for another guy, you move up the food chain.

 

[Super Nomario]

I would assume they'd want to alter one variable at a time to make sure it's the talent and not the manager, or at least justify it on that basis.  If the boys can't get anything done for another guy, you move up the food chain.

The problem is that, if you fire Farrell this year and Cherington next year, the next GM is in the position of either not getting to pick his manager or having to fire the new manager after just one season. If they're going to make a change, I think it's cleaner to fire Ben and let the new GM pick his manager.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

The problem is that, if you fire Farrell this year and Cherington next year, the next GM is in the position of either not getting to pick his manager or having to fire the new manager after just one season. If they're going to make a change, I think it's cleaner to fire Ben and let the new GM pick his manager.

I was thinking they'd probably just hire a seat-warmer for the rest of the season, maybe Beyeler (I don't see the logic in giving Farrell's bench manager the spot), and then clean house altogether after the current season.  I wouldn't change managers in-season and then let BC have another off-season if the talent didn't starting acting talented under the new guy for the remainder of this year.  

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

How about leaving in your burgeoning star left hander to absorb a 9 run thumping? How's that for building confidence? That's the sort of thing that SHOULD get you fired.

 

[flymrfreakjar]

How about leaving in your burgeoning star left hander to absorb a 9 run thumping? How's that for building confidence? That's the sort of thing that SHOULD get you fired.

He probably felt like the defense really let him down in that nightmare inning, and that a strong inning or two afterwards could be a really good thing. Of course the defense let him down yet again, as did the reliever and that's all she wrote.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

How about leaving in your burgeoning star left hander to absorb a 9 run thumping? How's that for building confidence? That's the sort of thing that SHOULD get you fired.

 
The alternative would have been what, exactly?  Until Goins hit the 3-run HR, it wasn't like he was getting racked around.  A couple bloops dropped in front of De Aza.  The non-call on the runner being out of the baseline at 2nd.  Rodriguez by all rights should have been out of that inning at 2-0, maybe 3-0 at worst.  I'm not sure a quick hook would have made any difference.
 
Doesn't help matters that the bullpen has been taxed the last two days AND they shipped a reliever out to make room for Travis Shaw.  Can't say trying to get 5 full innings out of the starting pitcher, no matter who he is, was such a bad strategy.

 

[BrooklineSoxFan]

I've been in the 'be patient with Farrell, it isn't his fault the roster construction is horrible' camp for a long while now, After these last six games though, I'm done defending him. He has likely lost the respect of the team and most definitely lost the trust of the fans. The biggest knock on Farrell when he was in Toronto was that his teams were consistently unfocused, terrible at fundamentals, and horrible at baserunning. After 2013, what we've seen the last two years is exactly those things play out here in Boston. I've also seen horribly positioned fielders, including balls over outfielders heads who should have been playing deeper in the first place (ie Russell Martin earlier in the series), outfielders who should be playing shallower for players who don't have power, and probably a dozen balls to the left of Panda hop through the infield (yes, Panda is fat and has terrible range, but stop playing him so close to the line!).
 
I don't care if his bench coach handles the day to day on those things, I don't care if Butterfield is the one running them into outs, and I don't even care if the bullpen coach is the culprit for how unprepared the relievers look; from the top down this team looks disheveled, disorganized, and absolutely dead. Players who are usually fairly consistent contributors are playing so far under their averages this year that not even a sacrifice to the BAIBP gods can save them.
 
He and the rest of his old hand coaching staff (Farrell, Lovullo, Butterfield) need to go, I don't even care that it probably isn't his fault, but what I see from the eye test is a team that just doesn't seem to have a plan. And that is most definitely Farrell's fault. Managers usually get too much credit when their team is winning and too much blame when their team is losing, but unfortunately despite this reality, we need a sacrifice at this point because the team is losing. Something, anything. Let it be Farrell, he's managed his way into this mess at times that's for sure.
 
Folks have mentioned Boles up thread, why the hell not at this point? See where he takes us till the end of the season and reassess. If we need to clean house at the GM level in the offseason, we can do so and figure out a new manager at that time as well.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Folks have mentioned Boles up thread, why the hell not at this point?

Is Joe Morgan too busy to take over?

 

[soxhop411]

“@RyanHannable: Farrell: ”Today we got beat up … We’re not in a good place right now as a team.“”

 

[BrooklineSoxFan]

Is Joe Morgan too busy to take over?

 
I mean I get your point, and I'm just more throwing names out there than really suggesting him. The biggest problem with this entire Farrell situation is that there just is not a replacement out there for him. You could very well go from bad (right now) to worse (Valentine-like where the clubhouse is a drama everyday). I'm sure ownership is cognizant of that, hence the slow hook.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

The trend in managerial hires seems to be to hire recognizable players from the team's recent past, no experience necessary. Counsell, Ventura, Molitor, Weiss, etc. So: Alex Cora?

 

[geoduck no quahog]

...I don't even care that it probably isn't his fault, but what I see from the eye test is a team that just doesn't seem to have a plan...we need a sacrifice at this point because the team is losing. Something, anything. Let it be Farrell...

 
Kind of puts the rest of your post into perspective.

 

[Pumpsie]

The trend in managerial hires seems to be to hire recognizable players from the team's recent past, no experience necessary. Counsell, Ventura, Molitor, Weiss, etc. So: Alex Cora?

Or Jason Varitek.

 

[Papo The Snow Tiger]

Farrell reminds me of a college professor who's great in the classroom, so they promote him to department head or administration, where he struggles. By all accounts I've heard John Farrell is a very good pitching coach. I'm sure he has ambitions and dreams, but as Dirty Harry once said "A man has got to know his limitations".

 

[Harry Hooper]

Or Jason Varitek.

 
If you're advising Tek, you tell him to take over fresh in Ft. Myers

 

[Al Zarilla]

The trend in managerial hires seems to be to hire recognizable players from the team's recent past, no experience necessary. Counsell, Ventura, Molitor, Weiss, etc. So: Alex Cora?

Mike Matheny had worked out very well for the Cards in that category too.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

Is managing the Sox a good job? The pay is average, dealing with media and fan stuff is extraordinary, the team is bad and maybe historically awful, the last successful manager was smeared on his way out of town and the gm may be fired as well, l

 

[Darnell's Son]

There's only 30 MLB managerial jobs in the world. If you're a prospective manager, you take what you can get.

 

[Rovin Romine]

When the purge begins, I hope Farrell isn't the only casualty. I know it's unheard of to can a GM mid season, but Benny has done a shitty job assembling this mess and needs to go too. And I hope Allard Baird's head roles too!

 
Not to pick on Papo, but I find it really odd that people aren't blaming the players.  Sure, Farrell may be part of the problem and firing him might be part of the solution.  But surely, some of this fiasco belongs to the players who take the field. 

 

[bosockboy]

I think Mueller fits the mold very well also.

 

[cannonball 1729]

Is managing the Sox a good job? The pay is average, dealing with media and fan stuff is extraordinary, the team is bad and maybe historically awful, the last successful manager was smeared on his way out of town and the gm may be fired as well, l

 
You get to play with 8-figure-salaried toys, and if things go well, you're the most popular person in town.  There are certainly drawbacks, but it's a good gig.
 
And are we sure the pay is middling?  That would surprise me.  I'm sure Farrell isn't paid as well as Scioscia or Francona, but he's not as experienced as those guys, either.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

I don't have any answers because this failure of this team is simply holistic. Even the things they were supposed to do well they're doing an awful job of. I get the frustration, and I get the impetus behind the "fire Farrell" argument but for me, if the best reason I can come up with for firing him is "Some one has to pay" or "Someone must be sacrificed" then that says to me that firing Farrell would be the wrong decision. I get that there are a lot of things at play here beyond his performance directly, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that he should be kicked to the curb for what boils down to an optics move.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I don't have any answers because this failure of this team is simply holistic. Even the things they were supposed to do well they're doing an awful job of. I get the frustration, and I get the impetus behind the "fire Farrell" argument but for me, if the best reason I can come up with for firing him is "Some one has to pay" or "Someone must be sacrificed" then that says to me that firing Farrell would be the wrong decision. I get that there are a lot of things at play here beyond his performance directly, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that he should be kicked to the curb for what boils down to an optics move.

You may be right, but it happens all the time.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

You may be right, but it happens all the time.

 
I understand that it does, and I understand that it might happen here. I'm just having trouble getting my energy up for a march to Fenway with a pitchfork in my hand. My heart isn't in it.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I don't have any answers because this failure of this team is simply holistic. Even the things they were supposed to do well they're doing an awful job of. I get the frustration, and I get the impetus behind the "fire Farrell" argument but for me, if the best reason I can come up with for firing him is "Some one has to pay" or "Someone must be sacrificed" then that says to me that firing Farrell would be the wrong decision. I get that there are a lot of things at play here beyond his performance directly, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that he should be kicked to the curb for what boils down to an optics move.

 
Pretty sure they fired that Francona character for reasons a lot like those.  I think that only bolsters the case that heads rolling probably won't solve anything.

 

[soxhop411]

“@PeteAbe: Things can change fast. But told postgame #RedSox ownership is not at a point of blaming this on Cherington or Farrell. No firings imminent.”

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

 
Not to pick on Papo, but I find it really odd that people aren't blaming the players.  Sure, Farrell may be part of the problem and firing him might be part of the solution.  But surely, some of this fiasco belongs to the players who take the field. 

 
Well of course, but you can't hire and fire players the way you can hire and fire managers or GMs. That's a harder fix.
 
And blaming the players is tantamount to blaming Cherington anyway.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

 
I understand that it does, and I understand that it might happen here. I'm just having trouble getting my energy up for a march to Fenway with a pitchfork in my hand. My heart isn't in it.

 
Well maybe don't look at it like a "march up to Fenway with a pitchfork in hand." It really isn't that sobering a moment when a manager gets canned after helming all this nonsense, blameless though he may be.

 

[MiracleOfO2704]

 
Not to pick on Papo, but I find it really odd that people aren't blaming the players.  Sure, Farrell may be part of the problem and firing him might be part of the solution.  But surely, some of this fiasco belongs to the players who take the field. 

 
I'll speak for myself. Most of us are blaming the players, but a couple of things stick out:
 
-Farrell has never been a great in-game manager, and with the players clearly underperforming en masse, the easiest thing to do is go after the guy that's been hired to ensure they're in the best possible position and frame of mind to succeed. For better or for worse, that's John.
 
-I am blaming the players, which comes back to the other person you can hire and fire freely: Ben. No one is saying Farrell's been given a phenomenal hand, and in fact, most pre-season predictions of the Red Sox winning the division were really backhanded slaps at the AL East, something along the lines of "The Sox will win it because someone has to." When the acquisitions don't inspire confidence in anyone and they're still picking your team to win the division by default, it's not a ringing endorsement of your talent evaluation abilities. Heap in the fact that, despite early optimism, the Red Sox really did go out and sign two DH/1B while holding on to two more, with all four demanding to be in the lineup the vast majority of the time, and it screams that these players are not only bad, but shouldn't have been the players brought in to begin with.

 

[glennhoffmania]

If this is all on the players and/or Ben then a manager should never ever get fired.  The talent on this team is not in the historically bad range yet they're on pace to lose almost 100 games.  If some people want to place the majority of the blame on Ben because they think this team is comprised of total crap that's a valid position- not one with which I agree, but it's arguable at least.  But this idea that Farrell isn't also doing a shitty job is preposterous.  This team looks like total crap on a day to day basis, and the results are total crap overall.  How that isn't at least partially the fault of the guy in charge of the roster is beyond me.
 
For those who think Farrell is doing a decent job are you suggesting that with a below-average manager they'd be on pace to win 50 games?

 

[Foulkey Reese]

 
Not to pick on Papo, but I find it really odd that people aren't blaming the players.  Sure, Farrell may be part of the problem and firing him might be part of the solution.  But surely, some of this fiasco belongs to the players who take the field. 

This is something that you felt the need to type out and post?
 
Nobody on this planet thinks that this team is bad exclusively because of the manager. 

 

[E5 Yaz]

“@PeteAbe: Things can change fast. But told postgame #RedSox ownership is not at a point of blaming this on Cherington or Farrell. No firings imminent.”

 
Two thoughts here:
 
-- That's probably the correct stance ... at this moment. Things have gone so wrong in so many areas that change for change sake is unlikely to inspire magical turnarounds.
 
-- On the other hand, there is so much turnaround needed from so many places that, unless they want to make a drastic player move, it's hard to see a way out of the bleakness. They have to play better than this as a unit, but have they shown anything that compels you to think they can get back into contention?