Joe Mazzulla never change

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
22,223
Row 14
I am not sure I have ever seen a worst consecutive coaching performances since the last time Joe pulled this off in 2023.

Why wouldn't you take a time out and put KP out with 12 seconds left? Never mind sitting and watching a 20 point lead burn again.

Can you fire a coach mid series?
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
39,823
Hi worst move was intentionally putting the Knicks in the bonus so he could get Mitchell Robinson off the floor. Cost the Knicks nothing and set up the Celtics to lose on free throws
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
16,004
Manhattan
The decision to call timeout or not with ~12 seconds left is so marginal. It's unclear whether it increases win probability (might decrease it), and you lose the timeout if you miss and have a chance to foul.

"Fire the coach because he didn't call it"....come on man.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
49,543
Melrose, MA
I think you also have to question his stubborn refusal to call time out at the end of games. It is one thing if your team is capable of creating a shot, quite another to lose two games in a row when they had the ball at the end and could not even get an attempt.
 

dalberts14

New Member
Apr 22, 2025
2
That was a shooting foul on Brunson at the end but Holliday was grabbing him intentionally earlier in the play. I'm stunned that they intended to score quickly and then also foul quickly.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
16,004
Manhattan
That was a shooting foul on Brunson at the end but Holliday was grabbing him intentionally earlier in the play. I'm stunned that they intended to score quickly and then also foul quickly.
They didn't intend to foul. Holiday just made a dumb play.
 

Salem's Lot

Andy Moog! Andy God Damn Moog!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
17,151
Gallows Hill
No, the crux of it all is they went 25-100 from 3 over two games when if they even go 27-100 they're up 2-0. Everyone - players, coach, fanbase - has lost their fucking minds.
So nobody should be accountable for this epic choke job?

It really doesn’t matter going forward since this is the last ride for this group before they blow the roster up because the owner doesn’t want to pay the second apron tax, but losing this series against these bums is unconscionable.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
11,113
Oakland
No, the crux of it all is they went 25-100 from 3 over two games when if they even go 27-100 they're up 2-0. Everyone - players, coach, fanbase - has lost their fucking minds.
I mean, this is also true. The margin has been nearly as close as humanly possible over two games, we could point out 20 different ways they could be up 2-0. I'm pointing out Tatum specifically because my confidence in this matchup was, more than anything else, based on how comfortable Tatum has looked and felt vs the Knicks. Instead, this is as bad as he's ever looked shooting the ball in a two game stretch in the playoffs.
 

4 6 3 DP

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 24, 2001
2,489
No, the crux of it all is they went 25-100 from 3 over two games when if they even go 27-100 they're up 2-0. Everyone - players, coach, fanbase - has lost their fucking minds.
I think it's much more likely they pulled an inside straight against repeatedly decimated opponents a year ago and this and the 23 squad are who they really are. But I guess we well see. To not see a pattern at this point is to willfully put on blinders. Which is fine, we all do it sometimes, but watching these team late and close is like watching 5: year olds play soccer - chaos personified. No one knows what the hell to do.
 

dalberts14

New Member
Apr 22, 2025
2
They didn't intend to foul. Holiday just made a dumb play.
I (respectfully) disagree, before Brunson even started his drive to the middle Holiday had him wrapped up and they let them play. I think the plan was for the Cs to score quickly, then foul quickly so they could get the ball back with enough time to call a pla... no sorry to run Tatum hero ball to end it.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
21,106
So nobody should be accountable for this epic choke job?

It really doesn’t matter going forward since this is the last ride for this group before they blow the roster up because the owner doesn’t want to pay the second apron tax get their future firsts locked multiple years in a row and be unable to pull off much needed trades to improve the roster, but losing this series against these bums is unconscionable.
 

Light-Tower-Power

ask me about My Pillow
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
17,019
Nashua, NH
I don't mind keeping the TO in case of a miss, foul, and need to advance the ball. But of course that would require getting a fucking shot off in that situation.
 

bsan34

New Member
Jul 31, 2006
480
C'ville, VA / Hingham, MA
I think it's much more likely they pulled an inside straight against repeatedly decimated opponents a year ago and this and the 23 squad are who they really are. But I guess we well see. To not see a pattern at this point is to willfully put on blinders. Which is fine, we all do it sometimes, but watching these team late and close is like watching 5: year olds play soccer - chaos personified. No one knows what the hell to do.
You're right. They should trade everyone, Process it, and find players who have more of a fire in the belly.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
28,832
Saskatoon Canada
No, the crux of it all is they went 25-100 from 3 over two games when if they even go 27-100 they're up 2-0. Everyone - players, coach, fanbase - has lost their fucking minds.
1st they didn't though2nd if they made one more three in the first half of each game I doubt your certainty of winning both games. They shot wee enough to have big leads in both games and to be winning late in each game, then play awful ball at the end of each game to lose.
 

BroodsSexton

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2006
14,040
guam
Tatum has to be injured. No? He’s not looking for shots and not even looking to create. He’s standing alone in the corner with KAT playing off of him for half the game.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
38,149
I think it's much more likely they pulled an inside straight against repeatedly decimated opponents a year ago and this and the 23 squad are who they really are. But I guess we well see. To not see a pattern at this point is to willfully put on blinders. Which is fine, we all do it sometimes, but watching these team late and close is like watching 5: year olds play soccer - chaos personified. No one knows what the hell to do.
They played amazing crunch time against Indiana. Did everyone forget that?
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
16,004
Manhattan
They played amazing crunch time against Indiana. Did everyone forget that?
And the past 2 seasons. And they won all the close games against Dallas.

This thread is just people yelling at the air to try and feel a sense of control. The coach is always the easy target for that.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
14,566
I think I’ve said this every year he’s been the coach but CJM is pretty lousy at in-game adjustments. He’s much more of a stick to the plan type of coach.,

However, this is the type of moment/stuff that Joe seems to live for. Let’s see what he can cook up for Game 3
 

Neil Ave

New Member
Jan 13, 2025
113
I agree with the Mazzulla criticisms. You have to use the time out in that situation not just to set up a play (the previous ATO led to the Tatum dunk), but to preserve time and extend the game in case you miss. It's malpractice to have the ball with 12 seconds left down by 1 and only end up with a single wild attempt at a shot.

Have we seen any adjustments? Other than bringing KP off the bench, which was forced upon him? Anything to introduce more movement into the offense? Is Mazzulla putting the ball in Jaylen's hands over and over again to initiate offense down the stretch? Sure seems like it.

Now, it's also true that Tatum has been atrocious and the team picked the worst possible time to play its worst basketball of the season. In that sense, it reminds me of 2023 against the Heat, when the Celts blamed the 3-0 series deficit on playing their worst week of basketball. Of course, the same guy was coaching that team.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
38,149
I agree he's pretty meh at ATO plays and anything in-game. But it's worth it for the overall approach, I think
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
25,606
Pittsburgh, PA
The decision to call timeout or not with ~12 seconds left is so marginal. It's unclear whether it increases win probability (might decrease it), and you lose the timeout if you miss and have a chance to foul.

"Fire the coach because he didn't call it"....come on man.
Yep. His first year, Mazzulla resisted calling momentum-driven timeouts to, in his words, "let them work through it". He learned why most successful coaches take those, to refocus the team. And now he largely takes those when he should. However, this was not one of those, not the type we criticized him for not taking early on. There is probably value to him drawing up an ATO play, but it's cancelled out (perhaps entirely) by the value of still having that timeout if you miss - as you point out. And with 12 seconds left instead of 5, that value-add of the ATO is smaller, you have more time to read and react, more time to try multiple things before committing.

Everyone has been singing Mazzulla's praises for the better part of two years, and for good reason. But we miss a bunch of 3s and now it's his fault, he has to be fired? Like, is this Twitter? Was Joe shooting the (mostly wide-open) threes?
 

CoffeeNerdness

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2012
10,463
Ironically, despite the dumb thread title, Mazzula did change. He went from the guy who let runs build without calling TOs to a guy who called super quick TOs. He consistently did that last year and through the regular season and now for some reason he's completely reverted being slow to call TO when the other team gets some momentum and once again decided not to call one to set up a final play. The results have been poor.
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
5,365
Amstredam
This tread is half the posts are mad at taking threes and half of them are mad at passing up open 3s.

It's classic and clearly shows that random variance will save us from AI.
 

Batman Likes The Sox

Not postscient
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2003
2,753
Madison, CT
This is not a good thread, but also does any of this matter since OKC is about to nearly outscore the NY and BOS final scores in the first HALF of their game?
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
50,434
Here
Joe’s general scheme has set them up tremendously this series and they have missed an insane amount of open shots. The tactics have been somewhat questionable, but I don’t have Joe on my top 5 worries right now. If you shoot 25% on like literally 90% open 3 point chances in high volume, the fault is with the players.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
40,714
where the darn libs live
No team is winning games when they shoot 25/100 from 3, especially when misses so many are great looks. That's it. That's the problem. The coaching hasn't been amazing, but Wooden, Pop, and Red together wouldn't have fixed these games. If they go 30/100, they win both. As said upthread, if they go 27/100, they probably win both!

I hope they keep shooting threes at this same clip, supposing they get open looks like they have, because either they keep doing the same thing that made them a title favorite or they change their personality entirely. What are we even talking about? Chances are they stop shooting 3s at 25% and closer to the 36.8% they shot from 3 all season. If they shoot even 34% they'll probably win the series.
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
40,714
where the darn libs live
Joe’s general scheme has set them up tremendously this series and they have missed an insane amount of open shots. The tactics have been somewhat questionable, but I don’t have Joe on my top 5 worries right now. If you shoot 25% on like literally 90% open 3 point chances in high volume, the fault is with the players.
Exactly this, 100%. Couldn't agree more. Hell yeah. Bravo.

I promise you, if Stevens saw this thread and the number of people blaming CJM for these losses, he'd laugh at you. And point. And call you names. And then pants you.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
11,564
NOVA
Agree with Laddie, Ed, Auger, Silverdude, Insta, and lovegtm. They are shooting worse from three than my 6th grade boys travel team who after 100 attempts had made 32. Closer three point line though, wink.

I can quibble, some though open have not been within the rhythm and within the flow of the offense and that is to the Knicks credit. BUT, these are NBA shooters who are good shooters taking in most cases open/wide-open threes. It has been a bad beat that they are shooting this poorly. Shooting even 33% from three won't solve their sloppiness especially passing the ball or their current health but it would make up for most of it and probably gets them to the ECF. Thibs has decided to take away one thing (clog the paint and send late help against Tatum and JB - JB is especially struggling recognizing and passing out of it) and cross his fingers with leaving wide open shooters and so far it has worked.

For me, tonight's fourth quarter was the scariest quarter thus far bc they made a lot of bad decisions including passing up decent and good three-point opportunities only to end up taking contested and low-percentage twos. The most egregious example was when Horford passed up the wide-open top of the key three where he was in rhythm only to instead drive into traffic and take a congested floater which missed. There were also times when they were open and shot the three but had some hesitation. It seems to be in their heads now.

And, so, Joe's job going forward is to build them up and tell them eff it let it fly.
 

riboflav

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
11,564
NOVA
One adjustment Joe could make is to play more inside out and less outside in. Don't drive into the trees; don't overpentrate. Get the defense to commit (or just have the help acknowledge you) in a dribble or two make and kick. Pass inside less to hit the home run (dunk/roller/post-up move) and more to collapse some defense and then kick out. Also, passing to the post from the top of the key seems to result in as many turnovers as it does successful shot attempts in the paint. It's a bad angle. More side PnR perhaps and more Derrick White with the ball in hands on PnR.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
32,968
That was a shooting foul on Brunson at the end but Holliday was grabbing him intentionally earlier in the play. I'm stunned that they intended to score quickly and then also foul quickly.
That’s nuts. Holiday was overly aggressive because he’s been around the block and knows that there would never be a whistle in actions leading up to the shot. He just happened to get his arm in an obvious shooting foul…..but nothing prior to that was with intent to foul it was with intent to disrupt knowing he’d never be whistled for a foul.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
14,566
That’s nuts. Holiday was overly aggressive because he’s been around the block and knows that there would never be a whistle in actions leading up to the shot. He just happened to get his arm in an obvious shooting foul…..but nothing prior to that was with intent to foul it was with intent to disrupt knowing he’d never be whistled for a foul.
To my eye, it looked like he got beat and was trying to foul him to reset the possession almost.

Definitely wasnt planned to foul quickly, just happened to work out that way
 

dhellers

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2005
4,780
Silver Spring, Maryland
And the past 2 seasons. And they won all the close games against Dallas.

This thread is just people yelling at the air to try and feel a sense of control. The coach is always the easy target for that.
DW amd JH provided a lot of crunch time scoring. They were the "3rd scorer" the celts have needed the entire J's era (along with the sometimes-available Porzingis).

Haven't seen as much of that this series.
 

jose melendez

Earl of Acie
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2003
33,720
Geneva, Switzerland
On the one hand, the slowness in the fourth quarters is really brutal. The lack of pace makes me nuts.

On the other hand, the Knicks are doing this on blind luck. They're playing shit defense and the Cs are missing shot after shot after shot. Not only was the three point shooting horrendous--on open looks mind you--but how many layups did they blow in the first half?

The Cs should have won both of these games by 25.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
49,543
Melrose, MA
The decision to call timeout or not with ~12 seconds left is so marginal. It's unclear whether it increases win probability (might decrease it), and you lose the timeout if you miss and have a chance to foul.

"Fire the coach because he didn't call it"....come on man.
John Karalis argued in his column that not calling the time out was the right move. They should have had time to bring the ball down, get a shot off, try for rebound, and then foul (at which point they would have needed the time out).

I disagree. When the offense is that much of a mess, I think you need the time out.

It really doesn’t matter going forward since this is the last ride for this group before they blow the roster up because the owner doesn’t want to pay the second apron tax, but losing this series against these bums is unconscionable.
We suddenly care about back half of the first round picks in the NBA?
This team was built on trades of first round picks and trades of many players for one (Kemba + 1st for Al; Brogdon and Rob Williams and a 1st for Jrue; flotsam and jetsam and a 1st for Brogdon; Smart and flotsam and jetsam for KP; flotsam and jetsam and a 1st for White), which the second apron restricts. Literally all of our top players except for JT and JB were added that way.

One adjustment Joe could make is to play more inside out and less outside in. Don't drive into the trees; don't overpentrate. Get the defense to commit (or just have the help acknowledge you) in a dribble or two make and kick. Pass inside less to hit the home run (dunk/roller/post-up move) and more to collapse some defense and then kick out. Also, passing to the post from the top of the key seems to result in as many turnovers as it does successful shot attempts in the paint. It's a bad angle. More side PnR perhaps and more Derrick White with the ball in hands on PnR.
When things get tough, this Celtics team becomes allergic to inside out play.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
16,004
Manhattan
John Karalis argued in his column that not calling the time out was the right move. They should have had time to bring the ball down, get a shot off, try for rebound, and then foul (at which point they would have needed the time out).

I disagree. When the offense is that much of a mess, I think you need the time out.
Most of these decisions are extremely marginal: neither changes win probability a ton either way, and you're probably talking about a 35-40% chance to win the game either way, at best.

It feels comforting to assert that the coach should have done X, Y or Z in that spot, but it's not a huge difference either way, and the cake was baked by the players inability to perform prior to that.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
49,543
Melrose, MA
Most of these decisions are extremely marginal: neither changes win probability a ton either way, and you're probably talking about a 35-40% chance to win the game either way, at best.

It feels comforting to assert that the coach should have done X, Y or Z in that spot, but it's not a huge difference either way, and the cake was baked by the players inability to perform prior to that.
I think it is entirely likely that they would have lost anyway had the time out been called. I just think things were going so bad with the way the team was currently playing that failing where they did was almost a foregone conclusion, so they should have called time, advanced the ball, and tried to run a play.

Here are a couple of other coaching questions.
  • Second half substitutions
    • Tatum, Brown, and White each played the entiretly of the third quarter, and Joe's decision not to trust the bench here did not stop the Celtics from collapsing late in the quarter. With 2.5 minutes left, Boston had a good offensive series where they failed to score (White missed 3, White OR, White missed 3, KP OR, KP missed layup). But then the Knicks closed the quarter with an 8-0 run in the final 2 minutes.
    • Maybe they would have been even worse if Mazzulla had done the usual thing and subbed Tatum out late in the third. But having played them both affected Mazzulla's 4th quarter substitutions.
    • They came out in the 4th with Holiday, Horford, Pritchard, KP, and Tatum, Brown and White on the bench. And that lineup did OK. For 3.5 minutes, they traded baskets and managed to increase the lead from 12 to 14.
    • At that point, Brown ands Kornet entered the game for Tatum and KP and the bottom fell out. Over the next 3.5 minutes, the Celtics missed all 6 of their shots (4 threes), including Pritchard missing a heat check 34 foot three, while the Knicks shot 3-4 and cut the lead in half. With 5 minutes left, Joe finally goes back to Tatum, but I think the damages was done at that point.
    • Tatum played 42 minutes. In his playoff career, he has gone at least 44 minutes in regulation 10 times. Joe should have ridden him the whole way in the 4th instead of resting him and then throwing him back in after the ship had already started sinking. When he came out, the Celtics were doing enough to win (trade baskets with a >10 point lead); when he went back in, the Celtics needed to stop a run.
  • Whither Luke?
    • The Celtics team +/- leader in this game was Luke Kornet, +11 in 18 minutes. KP was a -9 in 14 minutes, and Al was a -11 in 29. I think that was generally indicative of how each of them played. Al played the entire 4th quarter, led the team in FGA and was a -13. Kornet was also not good in the 4th (-5) in 3 minutes, but riding Al the whole way was a mistake, as was using Kornet so sparingly in the first 3 quarters. The Celtics built their 3rd quarter lead up to 18 in a 2 minutes stretch with Kornet on the floor and then Mazzulla yanked him to go with KP down the stretch of that quarter.