Joe Maddon to become Cubs manager (10/29)

Blacken

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Van Everyman said:
But even still, after the collapse and with Tito being let go, the message it sent when Theo did jump ship was exactly the opposite of what we just read in his statement about Renteria: that one person was indeed more important than the organization.

So spare us the "good people deserve better" rhetoric. He and Maddon have both proven themselves to be mercenaries and opportunists. They deserve each other.
It's a business. It's never going to be more than a business. The only people who say otherwise want you to do things that harm you and benefit them. Understanding this is not the moral failing you want it to be, but congratulations on being literally everything wrong with America.
 

Blacken

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"Mercenaries and opportunists". Holy shit, can you be more smarmy?
 

E5 Yaz

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Isn't every free agent who leaves their team for someplace else a mercenary and an opportunist? John Lackey? Mike Napoli? The Japan-bound Kevin Millar?
 

EvilEmpire

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Like someone else wrote earlier, it's hard to get worked up about management being treated like players. Players get replaced by better talent all the time. So it is with Renteria. There is no shame in it, and he certainly isn't being fired in disgrace. He'll be fine, or not, depending on how other teams assess his talents.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Van Everyman said:
Also:

The whole Cubs enterprise feels like it was comprised via some version of tampering: Theo and Maddon, but also Jed and Rizzo who magically went from prize in the Gonzalez deal to bum who somehow fell into the Cubs' laps once the GMs from both of his former teams ended up with the Cubs.

Even if it's not illegal, it's bullshit.
Well, it's not like Byrnes got a bag of balls for Rizzo.
 

lexrageorge

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I fail to see how this move damages Renteria's chances of managing again.  Renteria has one season in the books, and his moves are there for all to see.  John Farrell got another chance after Toronto; if Reneteria is any good, he'll get another chance as well.  
 
There's nothing to be upset about:  Maddon exercised an option in his contract, which was his right.  The Cubs offered him a job, and he took it.  He was under no obligation to wait or to pursue other opportunities.  I've seen far worse in the real world, where loyalty on the part of employees or employers is considered a negative attribute that should be avoided at all costs.  
 
If there was tampering, that's a league matter.  Tampering is hard to prove, however, as GM's such as Theo are usually smart enough to avoid leaving a paper trail that would come back to bite him later.  
 

soxhop411

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“@TBTimes_Rays: Maddon said he met with #Cubs brass at RV park near Pensacola to discuss philosophy”
 

nattysez

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Maddon's introductory press conference is going on now.  Not a surprise, but Maddon really loves to talk.  Rare to see someone other than Theo dominating a Cubs presser.
 

soxhop411

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nattysez said:
Maddon's introductory press conference is going on now.  Not a surprise, but Maddon really loves to talk.  Rare to see someone other than Theo dominating a Cubs presser.
I am enjoying this.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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Van Everyman said:
For years, I felt the same way about Theo...
 
[snip]

So spare us the "good people deserve better" rhetoric. He and Maddon have both proven themselves to be mercenaries and opportunists. They deserve each other.
 
I want to slap the shit out of you, you big fucking baby.
 

mauf

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It's like some of you only recently began following baseball. Since when do managers have a right to expect that they will only be fired for reasons that are objectively fair?
 
The Cubs gave Rick Renteria a three-year contract. I have no doubt they will honor the final two years of that contract. Beyond that, they have no obligation to him -- legally, morally, or otherwise. He's just another manager who got canned for reasons beyond his control.
 

JimD

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Maddon's contract with Tampa was going to be up after the 2015 season, correct?  If this was the case, I can see where Theo probably was planning to go after him unless Renteria proved to be a keeper.  Maddon's sudden jump from the Rays accelerated the timetable.
 
 
maufman said:
It's like some of you only recently began following baseball. Since when do managers have a right to expect that they will only be fired for reasons that are objectively fair?
 
The Cubs gave Rick Renteria a three-year contract. I have no doubt they will honor the final two years of that contract. Beyond that, they have no obligation to him -- legally, morally, or otherwise. He's just another manager who got canned for reasons beyond his control.
 
The Cubs will indeed pay Renteria the remainder of his contracted salary. 
 
I can't speak for others, but it irks me that Joe 'Mr. Unwritten Rules of Baseball' Maddon took another guy's job out from under him.  Just tired of his act.
 

TheoShmeo

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On the Maddon tampering charges: I would be surprised if there wasn't some kind of tampering in this case and would be more surprised if the investigation proves anything. 
 
I met Theo Epstein during Spring Training of 2005.  He was extremely candid on a lot of topics.  One thing he said was that tampering is rampant in baseball and presumably in all sports, and it's often done indirectly and therefore not subject to easy detection.  He said that someone connected to a team official simply calls a player or an agent to gauge interest or convey a message and "conversations" proceed along those lines.  
 
Now it's possible that Maddon resigned without knowing that he'd have a landing spot in Chicago given his reasonable assumption that he'd find a job in baseball if he was freed from Tampa.  And perhaps he was willing to sit out a year if need be.  But I'm guessing he knew he had a willing suitor in Theo and possibly other places. 
 

rembrat

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Yea, I'm guessing if you hold one of only 30 positions available in your profession, you aren't going to quit without knowing you have an sure thing lined up.
 

Average Reds

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rembrat said:
Yea, I'm guessing if you hold one of only 30 positions available in your profession, you aren't going to quit without knowing you have an sure thing lined up.
 
I have a nuanced disagreement with this.
 
Joe Maddon may have been largely unknown back when he took the Rays job, but his subsequent success in Tampa with limited resources made him a hot commodity.  And I have to assume that:
  1. Maddon (and his agent) knew this.
  2. Maddon (and his agent) knew that if he opted out early, the right job would materialize.
The point is that the scarcity of MLB managerial jobs isn't a limiting factor when you're the guy everyone wants.
 

pockmeister

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TheoShmeo said:
On the Maddon tampering charges: I would be surprised if there wasn't some kind of tampering in this case and would be more surprised if the investigation proves anything. 
 
I met Theo Epstein during Spring Training of 2005.  He was extremely candid on a lot of topics.  One thing he said was that tampering is rampant in baseball and presumably in all sports, and it's often done indirectly and therefore not subject to easy detection.  He said that someone connected to a team official simply calls a player or an agent to gauge interest or convey a message and "conversations" proceed along those lines.  
 
 
I don't get why anyone is remotely concerned about this.  I don't leave the job I currently have until I have my next one lined up - signed and sealed.  Why should a baseball manager behave any differently?  And if there's someone better at my job then I am, and my employers choose to hunt them down and bring them in, I need to go and find a new job - they'll pay me off if they want me to go away.  
 
It's just business - Maddon is interested in progressing his career - the Cubs job is clearly a step up, and he's a better manager than the incumbent.  So he's within his rights to terminate his current employment and the Cubs are within their rights to pay off the less capable incumbent and to hire Maddon.  Of course there were discussion behind the scenes - but so what?
 
The faux moral outrage is amusing.  This goes on every day in the business world.  
 

rembrat

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Average Reds said:
The point is that the scarcity of MLB managerial jobs isn't a limiting factor when you're the guy everyone wants.
 
Eh this talking point seems to have been made up in the last month or so. Maddon was a highly acclaimed manager no doubt but I doubt FO's across Baseball were just waiting for his contract to expire. He's a nice manager not Mike Trout. 
 

Average Reds

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rembrat said:
 
Eh this talking point seems to have been made up in the last month or so. Maddon was a highly acclaimed manager no doubt but I doubt FO's across Baseball were just waiting for his contract to expire. He's a nice manager not Mike Trout. 
 
I'm not following.  How is this made up and who is saying that FOs were just waiting for Maddon's contract to expire?
 
This really isn't as complicated as you are making it.  There are always a handful of jobs that open up each year.  Some we know about ahead of time and some we don't.  Maddon had to have known that he'd be the front-runner for them if he wasn't under contract.  So he terminated his contract and his phone started ringing.
 
It's entirely possible that he knew he had something in place.  I just don't see it as a stretch that he didn't and terminated anyway.
 

Harry Hooper

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As already noted, Maddon could have even returned to the Rays with a new contract.
 

rembrat

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You said he "was the guy everyone wants." How do you know this? 
 
Ultimately, I think we are saying the same thing but differently. You're saying Maddon hedged correctly he would have another job immediately and I'm saying he got a call, a wink, and a nudge.
 
And someone asked what Madden loses by opting out? Well, I know black framed glasses are fashionable and all the cool kids are wearing them again but he'll be 61 in February, so sitting out a year probably wouldn't be the smartest idea considering his window as a manager is closing. He'll be the 2nd oldest manager behind Terry Collins.
 

TheoShmeo

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Agreed, Average Reds.  While I think it's likely that Maddon actually knew that the Cubs were waiting, and that perhaps other teams were too, it's not a big leap that Maddon would be in demand for a managerial or TV job if he became available.
 

Average Reds

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rembrat said:
You said he "was the guy everyone wants." How do you know this? 
 
I mean, I don't.  But despite the fact that I can't stand him, do you disagree with that description?
 
 
 
Ultimately, I think we are saying the same thing but differently. You're saying Maddon hedged correctly he would have another job immediately and I'm saying he got a call, a wink, and a nudge.
 
And someone asked what Madden loses by opting out? Well, I know black framed glasses are fashionable and all the cool kids are wearing them again but he'll be 61 in February, so sitting out a year probably wouldn't be the smartest idea considering his window as a manager is closing. He'll be the 2nd oldest manager behind Terry Collins.
 
That's why I called it a nuanced disagreement.
 
I think you're overthinking this one.
 

NDame616

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Comparing Maddon leaving to other people's with "real life" (eg not baseball manager) doesn't translate. If BB left his contract, would he know someone would hire him? Of course. Same with Doc Rivers. Same with a handful of coaches in every sport. These aren't lawyers or accountants who need to go to monster.com or craigslist to seek out an employer. 
 

soxhop411

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“@TBTimes_Rays: BREAKING: #Rays managerial finalists are Kevin Cash, Raul Ibanez and Don Wakamatsu. Bench coach Dave Martinez is out.”
 

YTF

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Today is the 5th time that a Joe Maddon managed team has been no hit in the past 7 seasons. Mark Buehrle in 2009, Dallas Braden and Edwin Jackson both did it in 2010, King Felix in 2012 and today Cole Hamels does it. Just an odd and quirky fun fact that kinda' makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.