Jeets and the tire fire Marlins

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
9,408
Miami (oh, Miami!)
I think in this case Jeter did a pretty decent job of pointing out that a rebuild in today's atmosphere doesn't necessarily have to translate into trading off all you best players for prospects and forfeiting any desire to win games on the field. So no, I personally don't think Ozuna goes too.

People keep stressing the surface "franchise player" factor, but this isn't TB having locked up Longoria early or a "we'll just look past the money latter if/when things go south" surrounding scenario we are talking about here. Miami is a team that flirts with sub-$100m payrolls, and even with Stanton blowing it up this season has seen their attendance drop for a 3rd straight year (27th).

In a perfect world sure, they keep and build a huge dice roll future around one guy making roughly 1/3 of their payroll. If their ultimate goal is to stay content at where they are now as a franchise it's probably the safer short term bet as well. I just doubt that's the new ownership's overall mindset going in though. Finding a more practical way to hopefully string together a couple of seasons that result in legitimate WC hopes/appearances can/will do more for that city/franchise then fighting a more uphill and losing battle with the Stanton show in tact ever could imo.

My money would be on Stanton getting traded this winter, and not for straight prospects.
Part of it is the mercenary feel of the team, but the stadium is also a PITA to access, Little Havana isn't a draw in and of itself, and the ticket prices are high. Here's a good overview: https://www.fishstripes.com/2017/4/17/15310100/why-the-marlins-cant-fill-seats

Having a core of identifiable young players would help, but at this point I don't think trading Stanton would be that much of a hit to the fanbase. When I see him later tonight, I'll ask.
 

santadevil

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
3,836
Saskatchestan
I've been thinking about Jeter lately after I read an ESPN article about how they will make Stanton trade himself.
If Stanton doesn't waive his no-trade clause, they will look at selling off pieces to save payroll. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Stanton doesn't want to do a rebuild (again), so he will likely do it. As discussed, the Giants are showing interest.

I came across this video today:
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21631040
Wondering if Jeter is going to end up more hated than ARod, which also mentioned a Passan story about how they let go of a scout who needs a kidney transplant after undergoing surgery for colon cancer.
Sent someone to his hospital room to let him know they aren't renewing is contract.

This is on top of them letting go of some iconic Marlin's that were working on the front office, which was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Now, this might not be all drive directly by Jeter, but he's the face of ownership and most of the time, perception is reality.
In this reality, Jeter is somehow already worse than Loria, which is saying something.

Could he really turn himself into the most hated man in baseball in the span of 3 to 4 months?
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
2,296
Does a team that has ranked nearly last in attendance since 2000 really have "iconic" players? Do people actually care about former players having front office jobs? Having Jeff Conine hang out around the stadium, pulling a salary, seems like a waste of funds for a team that doesnt really have any.

They have to sell all these players because nobody actually goes to the games. I know it is a chicken or the egg type situation down there, but nobody vilifies the Rays or the Athletics for being cheap, and that is the company the Marlins keep, attendance wise.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
Apr 12, 2001
19,963
Does a team that has ranked nearly last in attendance since 2000 really have "iconic" players? Do people actually care about former players having front office jobs? Having Jeff Conine hang out around the stadium, pulling a salary, seems like a waste of funds for a team that doesnt really have any.

They have to sell all these players because nobody actually goes to the games. I know it is a chicken or the egg type situation down there, but nobody vilifies the Rays or the Athletics for being cheap, and that is the company the Marlins keep, attendance wise.
It depends what you mean about iconic players. Are these Marlins players in the stratosphere of Williams, Yaz and Pedro? Ruth, Mantle and Jackson? Matthewson, Mays and Bonds? No. Of course not, the Marlins haven't been around for 100+ years. But they've won two World Series since 1997 and they've been pretty good series. Renteria winning the game AND the series in the ninth inning of the seventh game was exciting. Pudge and Josh Beckett rolling into Yankee Stadium and shutting down the MFYs was excellent.

So yeah, they've had some pretty awesome moments.

The problem isn't with the players here. The problem has been with ownership. Everything Miami (or Florida) gets some momentum to actually build something in South Florida, the rug is taken away from them. So yes, having a Jeff Conine or Preston Wilson or some other ancient Marlin hanging around the front office or the batting cage or Spring Training is a big deal. It tells the fans, as well as the players, that being a Miami Marlin is bigger than them. It's like being a fraternity or a family. It's the same thing when the Red Sox trot out Varitek every Spring Training. Or Pedro. Or Yaz. Or Jim Rice. (BTW, Jeff Conine has won more World Series than the last two combined.)

Nobody vilifies the A's and the Rays because their owner didn't blatantly steal from the taxpayers that make up his fan base. How much public money did Jeff Loria get for the new Miami Stadium? How long are they going to pay for that thing? He sweet talked them by saying that he's committed to building a winner and that he wants the Marlins franchise to turn things around. And he fucked them hard. He got his $1.something billion and left town. Now Jeter and his cadre of carpetbaggers come in and what's the first thing they do? Fire everyone and are in the process of trading their biggest star, last year's NL MVP and the only reason to watch Miami.

The Rays and the A's play in dilapidated, outmoded stadiums where their revenues are completely compromised. Because of that, they use new and different methods of trying to put competitive team on the field. They have realize that they need a bust couple of years before they can have a few years of competitiveness. They seem to be pretty honest about what they're doing, their fans understand it and have bought along. Plus Miami is a Top 10 city in the US in terms of media and growth while having a high population of Cuban Americans, who are crazy about baseball. Them drawing is not the fans' fault. It's the fault of Marlins ownership and marketing teams.

The Marlins legitimately have the chance to be one of the top echelon of MLB teams, they've done nothing but blown it. The A's and the Rays do not have that same chance. That's why no one gives Oakland or Tampa Bay the same amount of crap that the Marlins get.
 

Sampo Gida

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 7, 2010
5,038


And watch which players?
Maybe he plans to bring in scantily clad cheer leaders and provide free escorts who operate on commission and act as a bookie for fans who can bet on the game.

Obviously he has to increase ticket prices which may be paid by fans of other teams who live in Miami or are visiting. Maybe duplicate Legends seating/prices/services. The rich have a lot more money thanks to Trump and the various asset bubbles . The riff raff dont contribute much to the bottom line. Jeter has always been an elitist
 

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2008
27,644
Roanoke, VA
Hey, they love Castro in Miami!
Well, he hopes to be traded.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/starlin-castro-hoping-to-be-traded-away-from-marlins.html

It’s not difficult to see why Castro would prefer to find a new home. The Marlins are clearly in a rebuilding stance, with several top veterans already having been dealt and a few more still on the block. Castro is already guaranteed to earn at a healthy clip for the next two seasons — $10MM and $11MM apiece followed by a $1MM buyout on a 2020 option — and he’d surely prefer to draw his salary while playing for a contender.
Honestly, if he's just a salary dump and wouldn't cost any prospects of note, I wouldn't mind him being Pedroia's replacement early on and a middle infield bat off the bench once Pedey returns. The Marlins kicked in 30 million to move Stanton, maybe they'll shave 1 or 2 million a year off of his remaining contract (10 million in 2018, 11 million in 2019 with a 1 million buyout in 2020).

It would depend on how they view Swihart defensively in the MI positions, though. If he can cover 2nd passably and SS no worse than Nunez last year, he's a better bet. If he's just going to be C/1B/LF depth, Castro might be a better use of a roster spot, even a substantially higher cost in dollars.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
5,786
They're going with a younger, less expensive mascot. But it's not cost saving really, they just expect him to hit his mascotting peak at the same time as their next group of great young players. It's a timing thing.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
44,022
So SI did a big piece about Jeter this past issue, how his tenure so far has been misunderstood, blah blah blah. It is a not very interesting puff piece, but it ends with this unintentionally hysterical gem:

"In the cocktail hour before the Dinner on the Diamond event, grown-ups swooned around Jeter, posing for pictures and asking him to sign Yankees jerseys. He is the face of the Marlins, for better, as on nights like this, or for worse.

Ralph Eguilior, an architect from Miami, walked up to Jeter. “I hope you’re as good an owner as you were a shortstop,” he said.

Jeter smiled and said, “Better.”"

https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/02/07/derek-jeter-miami-marlins
 

uncannymanny

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
6,138
Boston --> NYC --> LA --> NYC
Pretty shortsighted by the team. Not having this article published has to be worth at least the $60k(?) he was asking to avoid having the brand publicly mocked. Probably cost them that much just to have their lawyers shit on the guy.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
5,786
Pretty shortsighted by the team. Not having this article published has to be worth at least the $60k(?) he was asking to avoid having the brand publicly mocked. Probably cost them that much just to have their lawyers shit on the guy.
On the other hand, this guy is a conceited dickbag who is offended by the truth that nobody cares about him or buys tickets to the Marlins because he sits behind home plate. He is of zero value to the franchise. But just like any individual customer, as a company you can't let a customer know you don't care about them in particular. You have to at least fake it, and they failed at that horribly.
 

uncannymanny

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
6,138
Boston --> NYC --> LA --> NYC
On the other hand, this guy is a conceited dickbag who is offended by the truth that nobody cares about him or buys tickets to the Marlins because he sits behind home plate. He is of zero value to the franchise. But just like any individual customer, as a company you can't let a customer know you don't care about them in particular. You have to at least fake it, and they failed at that horribly.
He’s not a man I like, I’ll agree there, but he’s not just “an individual customer”. He has bought some of their most expensive season ticket packages for every single one of their 25 years in existence and, whether they like it or not, unofficially represents the team. As silly as his whole free agency thing is, that other teams are reaching out to him tells me that he doesn’t have zero value to the franchise.

Myself as an example, I’m not sure what players are even on their roster anymore, but I know who Marlins Man is. It’s a terrible look, done to save couch cushion money on your best customer. What a clown show franchise.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
9,408
Miami (oh, Miami!)
He’s not a man I like, I’ll agree there, but he’s not just “an individual customer”. He has bought some of their most expensive season ticket packages for every single one of their 25 years in existence and, whether they like it or not, unofficially represents the team. As silly as his whole free agency thing is, that other teams are reaching out to him tells me that he doesn’t have zero value to the franchise.

Myself as an example, I’m not sure what players are even on their roster anymore, but I know who Marlins Man is. It’s a terrible look, done to save couch cushion money on your best customer. What a clown show franchise.
This has always been a tradition-challenged franchise. Sometimes what's "tradition" may not be your first choice, but you work with it, until you install new traditions of your own.

I think that So.Floridians will basically be thinking, "More talk - let's see them show a commitment to winning." Having Marlins Man as part of a promotion of some sort, giving a nod to the fan base, would help a great deal with that. Trading Stanton, axing everything that smacked of the old Marlins, and wrapping things in bland corporate-speak, won't put fans in the seats.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
5,786
He’s not a man I like, I’ll agree there, but he’s not just “an individual customer”. He has bought some of their most expensive season ticket packages for every single one of their 25 years in existence and, whether they like it or not, unofficially represents the team. As silly as his whole free agency thing is, that other teams are reaching out to him tells me that he doesn’t have zero value to the franchise.

Myself as an example, I’m not sure what players are even on their roster anymore, but I know who Marlins Man is. It’s a terrible look, done to save couch cushion money on your best customer. What a clown show franchise.
I would accommodate him to the same extent I would other ticket holders who buy the most expensive seats. I can't imagine those are all selling out for the Marlins, and it means a good chunk of cash to them. They give those sorts of buyers perks even at stadiums that are close to selling out, because it takes effort to attract and replace them. I don't know if I would give the discount he was asking, but freebies would certainly be on the table. Something of value to him that is reduced value or free to the team. Like being in a crowd scene in an ad, or getting signed goodies, or a friggin Marlins Jeter Jr Decoder ring*.

*I'll let you know up front, the secret message is "Buy more ovaltine"
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
Apr 12, 2001
19,963
On the other hand, this guy is a conceited dickbag who is offended by the truth that nobody cares about him or buys tickets to the Marlins because he sits behind home plate. He is of zero value to the franchise. But just like any individual customer, as a company you can't let a customer know you don't care about them in particular. You have to at least fake it, and they failed at that horribly.
I agree with you that "celebrity fans" suck. Whether it's the Marlin Man, Ed the Fireman or the people in the Black Hole at the Raiders game; they all take themselves way too seriously and all pretty much think that they're the reason why people go to Marlins, Jets or Raiders games.

That being said, the Marlins have a problem with generating interest, revenue and fan support. Kicking the most famous Marlin fan in the world out on his ass, might not be the best optics for an ownership that has shot itself in the foot with every move they made this winter.

If I didn't know any better, I would think that Jeter has some sort of secret deal in north Jersey and he's tanking this franchise so that he can move the Marlins there.
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
5,786
I agree with you that "celebrity fans" suck. Whether it's the Marlin Man, Ed the Fireman or the people in the Black Hole at the Raiders game; they all take themselves way too seriously and all pretty much think that they're the reason why people go to Marlins, Jets or Raiders games.

That being said, the Marlins have a problem with generating interest, revenue and fan support. Kicking the most famous Marlin fan in the world out on his ass, might not be the best optics for an ownership that has shot itself in the foot with every move they made this winter.

If I didn't know any better, I would think that Jeter has some sort of secret deal in north Jersey and he's tanking this franchise so that he can move the Marlins there.
He actually wants to move them to Cleveland.
 

timlinin8th

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 6, 2009
1,521
Something of value to him that is reduced value or free to the team. Like being in a crowd scene in an ad, or getting signed goodies, or a friggin Marlins Jeter Jr Decoder ring*.
Shouldn’t it be the official Derek Jeter giftbasket with autographed photos, baseballs, etc? That what Jetes gives everyone else after he f#€ks em.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
9,408
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Yeah, the state case was removed to Federal court about a month ago. Rumor was that the Marlins didn't want to be in front of Judge Butchko. I've probably logged 30+ hours in front of her over the years, and, well, she's not a judge to play games with.

It was assigned to Judge Gayles, so I'm not sure they came out ahead. Former state and federal prosecutor, then county and circuit court judge here in Miami. He'll crack the whip if need be, and the federal pace for case development is much tighter that state. Jury Trial set for 7/22/2019.

Meanwhile the whole "We're actually located in the Virgin Islands" is spinning into a PR debacle.
 

Gdiguy

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,369
San Diego, CA
Yeah, the state case was removed to Federal court about a month ago. Rumor was that the Marlins didn't want to be in front of Judge Butchko. I've probably logged 30+ hours in front of her over the years, and, well, she's not a judge to play games with.

It was assigned to Judge Gayles, so I'm not sure they came out ahead. Former state and federal prosecutor, then county and circuit court judge here in Miami. He'll crack the whip if need be, and the federal pace for case development is much tighter that state. Jury Trial set for 7/22/2019.

Meanwhile the whole "We're actually located in the Virgin Islands" is spinning into a PR debacle.
Just to clarify (Opening Arguments posted the documents), do you have a reference to it actually being removed to Federal court? The Marlins petitioned for that, but I can't find any reference to a decision

Miami's opposition is pretty fun - Miami’s Opposition