Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top

Mooch

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I can't tell you how much joy it gives me when Pelinka's camp shivs Magic and vice versa.

This is the first I've heard that the swap with Philly was conditioned on Philly providing assurances that it was taking Fultz. Which, if everyone knows Magic is taking Lonzo at 2, is a pretty strong signal that Fultz will be there at 3 for Philly, so why give up the Sacramento pick?
You know, I've often thought the same thing. And the other piece is that if the general consensus was Fultz at one, wouldn't it set off alarm bells that the Celtics wanted assurances that Philly wouldn't take Tatum if the trade happened?
 

Mooch

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Ainge had Tatum = Fultz (making the additional pick worth dropping down for), or at least only slightly ahead.
If that was the case, why did Ainge need an assurance from the 76ers that they were taking Fultz at #1 in order to make the trade?
 

Neil Ave

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I can't tell you how much joy it gives me when Pelinka's camp shivs Magic and vice versa.

This is the first I've heard that the swap with Philly was conditioned on Philly providing assurances that it was taking Fultz. Which, if everyone knows Magic is taking Lonzo at 2, is a pretty strong signal that Fultz will be there at 3 for Philly, so why give up the Sacramento pick?
That was exactly my thought. My best guess is Ainge was trading out of the first pick one way or another -- Tatum at 3 being his first choice, but maybe he had a backup deal lined up deeper in the lottery where he would take Mitchell (or Tatum if he slid). We have reporting that Ainge was trying to trade back into the lottery that night to take Mitchell (in addition to Tatum).
 

Euclis20

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If that was the case, why did Ainge need an assurance from the 76ers that they were taking Fultz at #1 in order to make the trade?
Honestly, I don't believe him (or the "sources") in this article. It's just too risky to trade back if you truly think Tatum is without a doubt the best player in the draft. If that's the case, just take him first overall. Anything said after the fact is meant to make you look smarter.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Philly didn't want to risk it. I'll always believe that no matter what's said after the fact, Philly had Fultz >>> Tatum while Ainge had Tatum = Fultz (making the additional pick worth dropping down for), or at least only slightly ahead. It's just too risky otherwise. That was the basic consensus at the time anyway. Fultz was the clear #1 (obviously not a generational superstar like Lebron or Wemby, nor on the next level of guys like Duncan, Davis, Zion, Oden, but still the #1 guy by anyone doing draft work), Lonzo was going #2 to LA (it wasn't clear if he actually was the 2nd best prospect, LA just wanted him and that was that), then it was Tatum/Jackson going 3/4 in some order.
There's an Ainge quote to the effect of "I think we'll get the same guy at 3 we would have taken at 1" somewhere. So I have been on the side that Ainge knew who he wanted and there was some risk, but limited given Lakers had showed their hand and Philly committed to Fultz. And that Sacto pick ended up not being super valuable, but was viewed as a major asset...that is why he took the small risk

The Philly deal happened right after Fultz' workout with Celtics. What I wonder is whether that was a charade---they knew they wanted Tatum and just needed Philly to think they might take Fultz---or whether they saw something in the Fultz workout that cemented they wanted Tatum and not Fultz and then went and made the trade. Or, to your hypothesis they were indifferent, maybe that is what they saw in workout (Fultz is who we thought, we're fine either way, and take the extra asset). I've said it here before---I'd love to know the Brain Doctor was still with Celts then, and if so whether he assessed Fultz...becuase while he's probably a quack, Fultz is precisely the profile he in theory would help you avoid.
 

Euclis20

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There's an Ainge quote to the effect of "I think we'll get the same guy at 3 we would have taken at 1" somewhere. So I have been on the side that Ainge knew who he wanted and there was some risk, but limited given Lakers had showed their hand and Philly committed to Fultz. And that Sacto pick ended up not being super valuable, but was viewed as a major asset...that is why he took the small risk

The Philly deal happened right after Fultz' workout with Celtics. What I wonder is whether that was a charade---they knew they wanted Tatum and just needed Philly to think they might take Fultz---or whether they saw something in the Fultz workout that cemented they wanted Tatum and not Fultz and then went and made the trade. Or, to your hypothesis they were indifferent, maybe that is what they saw in workout (Fultz is who we thought, we're fine either way, and take the extra asset). I've said it here before---I'd love to know the Brain Doctor was still with Celts then, and if so whether he assessed Fultz...becuase while he's probably a quack, Fultz is precisely the profile he in theory would help you avoid.
I mean, that's what you're supposed to say in that situation ("we'll get the guy we want anyway"). I just don't think you can't make that trade unless you're comfortable getting either player, I don't trust an assurance from a rival GM, if one was even made (has anyone heard from Bryan Colangelo since his ugly exit from Philly?)

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall at Fultz' workout. This article does sound like Tatum knocked his out of the park (Phoenix should've been looking to trade with the Lakers if they loved Tatum, that would've been something).
 

tims4wins

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There's an Ainge quote to the effect of "I think we'll get the same guy at 3 we would have taken at 1" somewhere. So I have been on the side that Ainge knew who he wanted and there was some risk, but limited given Lakers had showed their hand and Philly committed to Fultz. And that Sacto pick ended up not being super valuable, but was viewed as a major asset...that is why he took the small risk

The Philly deal happened right after Fultz' workout with Celtics. What I wonder is whether that was a charade---they knew they wanted Tatum and just needed Philly to think they might take Fultz---or whether they saw something in the Fultz workout that cemented they wanted Tatum and not Fultz and then went and made the trade. Or, to your hypothesis they were indifferent, maybe that is what they saw in workout (Fultz is who we thought, we're fine either way, and take the extra asset). I've said it here before---I'd love to know the Brain Doctor was still with Celts then, and if so whether he assessed Fultz...becuase while he's probably a quack, Fultz is precisely the profile he in theory would help you avoid.
Yeah that Sacto pick ended up about as worst case scenario as possible. IIRC heading into the season there was a legit possibility of it being top 5.

Edit Sacto had the 8th worst record in 2017 and then won 5 fewer games in 2018 and tied for the 7th worst record (lots of tanking lol) but the pick fell to 14
 

Auger34

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The Philly deal happened right after Fultz' workout with Celtics. What I wonder is whether that was a charade---they knew they wanted Tatum and just needed Philly to think they might take Fultz---or whether they saw something in the Fultz workout that cemented they wanted Tatum and not Fultz and then went and made the trade. Or, to your hypothesis they were indifferent, maybe that is what they saw in workout (Fultz is who we thought, we're fine either way, and take the extra asset). I've said it here before---I'd love to know the Brain Doctor was still with Celts then, and if so whether he assessed Fultz...becuase while he's probably a quack, Fultz is precisely the profile he in theory would help you avoid.
Overall, I am between you and @Euclis20 on this. I think that Ainge wanted Tatum but I don't think there was some big chasm between the two and I do think the quotes post-draft are just media speak and what you're supposed to say.

However, @HomeRunBaker has talked a bunch about how Fultz workout must have been awful because right after that workout they immediately scheduled more workouts with Tatum and Josh Jackson. I am wondering if Ainge saw the way that Fultz changed his shooting mechanics, talked with him to find out why he did and was just completely turned off by his answer and reasoning, then decided he didn't want to draft him
 

TomRicardo

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You know, I've often thought the same thing. And the other piece is that if the general consensus was Fultz at one, wouldn't it set off alarm bells that the Celtics wanted assurances that Philly wouldn't take Tatum if the trade happened?
"Hey we are talking to Cleveland about trading for Kyrie and won't need a point guard." or "With Brown and Smart, we are looking for more height so we value Tatum more."

Philly wanted Fultz more anyway as he would have been a great fit for SImmons in the backcourt.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Overall, I am between you and @Euclis20 on this. I think that Ainge wanted Tatum but I don't think there was some big chasm between the two and I do think the quotes post-draft are just media speak and what you're supposed to say.

However, @HomeRunBaker has talked a bunch about how Fultz workout must have been awful because right after that workout they immediately scheduled more workouts with Tatum and Josh Jackson. I am wondering if Ainge saw the way that Fultz changed his shooting mechanics, talked with him to find out why he did and was just completely turned off by his answer and reasoning, then decided he didn't want to draft him
Good memory. It wasn’t only Boston scheduling workouts but Fultz immediately working out for Philly(?) the next day. There is plenty of off-court interviewing going on too so Ainge must have been so over this kid. When the consensus #1 pick leaves the building without a promise and they both move on that was a big red flag on Fultz.
 

LA_33

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I can't tell you how much joy it gives me when Pelinka's camp shivs Magic and vice versa.

This is the first I've heard that the swap with Philly was conditioned on Philly providing assurances that it was taking Fultz. Which, if everyone knows Magic is taking Lonzo at 2, is a pretty strong signal that Fultz will be there at 3 for Philly, so why give up the Sacramento pick?
The part of the assumption-set I'm least convinced by is actually the idea that the Lakers were definitely taking Lonzo, no matter what.

Everything Magic says in that article is about "a PG" and I suspect that what ultimately happened is that Philly had a STRONG preference for Fultz over Ball, but feared that if Tatum when to Boston at #1, then LAL would take Fultz at #2 over Lonzo, and Philly would end up with the top-3 guy they didn't really want.

So they agreed to the trade with Ainge to get Fultz, instead of Lonzo, and they considered THAT to be worth the extra Sacto 1st.
 

Smokey Joe

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Interesting piece by ESPN’s Dave McMenamin on how the Lakers didn’t get Tatum in for a workout in the lead up to the 2017 draft. Evidently Pelinka wanted to at least work him out but Magic was so clear to everyone involved - especially Tatum’s agent, Jeff Wechsler - that Lonzo was the pick that the workout never happened.
When I read this type of article, I often wonder “How much of this is true and how much of this is bullshit designed to make the subject (in this case Pelinka and the Lakers front office) look like less of an idiot?”

i’m leaning towards bullshit on this one.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Tatum is getting really good with the media. That Kimmel hit is really strong for an athlete/not professional entertainer. Talks just the right amount, smooth and charming. He's getting good training.

I love the stuff about his mom and his money.
 

InstaFace

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The part of the assumption-set I'm least convinced by is actually the idea that the Lakers were definitely taking Lonzo, no matter what.

Everything Magic says in that article is about "a PG" and I suspect that what ultimately happened is that Philly had a STRONG preference for Fultz over Ball, but feared that if Tatum when to Boston at #1, then LAL would take Fultz at #2 over Lonzo, and Philly would end up with the top-3 guy they didn't really want.

So they agreed to the trade with Ainge to get Fultz, instead of Lonzo, and they considered THAT to be worth the extra Sacto 1st.
This is a really smart post and I buy this logic, it sounds very plausible with everything else we know about that draft run-up.

Am at least a bit surprised LA never called to talk about a 1/2 swap. But the lack of a call reinforces everyone's conviction that Magic was taking Ball no matter what (or at least, that they acted on that conviction).
 

lovegtm

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The part of the assumption-set I'm least convinced by is actually the idea that the Lakers were definitely taking Lonzo, no matter what.

Everything Magic says in that article is about "a PG" and I suspect that what ultimately happened is that Philly had a STRONG preference for Fultz over Ball, but feared that if Tatum when to Boston at #1, then LAL would take Fultz at #2 over Lonzo, and Philly would end up with the top-3 guy they didn't really want.

So they agreed to the trade with Ainge to get Fultz, instead of Lonzo, and they considered THAT to be worth the extra Sacto 1st.
That's definitely the most parsimonious explanation for the trade that I've ever seen, including why Philly could feel comfortable with it even knowing that Ainge didn't like Fultz's workout.
 

Silverdude2167

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This Tatum stat from the Globe is a little jarring:

He has shot 50 percent from the field just once in his last 15 games.
 

lovegtm

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This Tatum stat from the Globe is a little jarring:

He has shot 50 percent from the field just once in his last 15 games.
This is the most obvious reason the offense has looked bad.

It's very easy to take away the 3 when Brown and Tatum suck this much against their matchups, and then Boston can't get rotation.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The part of the assumption-set I'm least convinced by is actually the idea that the Lakers were definitely taking Lonzo, no matter what.

Everything Magic says in that article is about "a PG" and I suspect that what ultimately happened is that Philly had a STRONG preference for Fultz over Ball, but feared that if Tatum when to Boston at #1, then LAL would take Fultz at #2 over Lonzo, and Philly would end up with the top-3 guy they didn't really want.

So they agreed to the trade with Ainge to get Fultz, instead of Lonzo, and they considered THAT to be worth the extra Sacto 1st.
Late to this but your post makes a lot of sense to me as well.

However, JT said back in 2017 that PHI thought BOS was going to pick Fultz, even though according to JT, BOS would have picked JT 1st if they didn't trade the pick. I suppose if they got assurances from PHI that they would pick Fultz (wonder how binding those promises are!), it isn't such a big deal since they knew LAL wasn't going to pick JT.

@PedroKsBambino: this story from 2017 contains above JT quote plus a statement that BOS would have picked JT #1 if he had the pick.

I'd hate to play poker with Danny Ainge (though I presume he doesn't gamble).
 

Euclis20

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Late to this but your post makes a lot of sense to me as well.

However, JT said back in 2017 that PHI thought BOS was going to pick Fultz, even though according to JT, BOS would have picked JT 1st if they didn't trade the pick. I suppose if they got assurances from PHI that they would pick Fultz (wonder how binding those promises are!), it isn't such a big deal since they knew LAL wasn't going to pick JT.

@PedroKsBambino: this story from 2017 contains above JT quote plus a statement that BOS would have picked JT #1 if he had the pick.

I'd hate to play poker with Danny Ainge (though I presume he doesn't gamble).
If true, I wonder if JT is aware that their decision to move back cost him (Tatum) about $7.3M.
 

Euclis20

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Tatum looking like he could use a week or two off. First time he's been scoreless in the first half since November 2021.
 

lovegtm

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If true, I wonder if JT is aware that their decision to move back cost him (Tatum) about $7.3M.
He's definitely aware of it. He's mentioned multiple times having a chip on his shoulder over not going #1, and I'm sure the finances play at least a bit into that, if only 5-10%. He really wanted the status of going #1 in the draft.
 

ifmanis5

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Watching his career in real time, feels like all the last second hero ball step back prayers never seem to go but the stats say otherwise. Will he finally start to gain a clutch rep?

View: https://twitter.com/extra_muse/status/1885555738795208752

Most buckets to tie or take lead, final 5 seconds, since 2019-20:
12 — Jayson Tatum 9 — DeMar DeRozan
View: https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1885546778692321786

Jayson Tatum is making a resounding case for Clutch Player of the Year. Clutch stats (rankings):
79 PTS (6th) 29 FGM (2nd) 25 REB (5th) 20 AST (2nd) 3 go-ahead/tying FG in last 5 sec (T-1st) 63.2 2P% (24-of-38)
View: https://twitter.com/LegionHoops/status/1885546423636418817

The most shots made in the final 5 seconds for the lead or tie this season:
Jayson Tatum — 3-for-6 Tyler Herro — 3-for-8
View: https://twitter.com/DickLipe/status/1885538921926246862

CELTIC HISTORY: MOST FG FOR LEAD/WIN, FINAL :05 (Since 1996-97)
13 JAYSON TATUM 13 Paul Pierce 6 Antoine Walker 4 Ray Allen 3 Bradley, Brown, R. Davis, Fox, J. Green, Horford, Turner
 

Euclis20

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Copied from the game thread:

Swear to god, Tatum was considered a clutch player before last season. He had a ton of last minute game tying and winning shots in the regular season, and a solid resume of big game moments and plays (even in the mess that was the 2023 playoffs, his performance in the last 5 quarters of the ECSF against Philly and MVP Embiid was legendary). Then came last season when he had a tremendous run of bad luck on clutch shots, followed by a playoff run in which he just never found his jump shot at all (leading to a bunch of morons concluding that he wasn't a guy to be relied on in the postseason, despite his long history of success in that regard), followed by being benched at the olympics. Fast forward to now, people are legit surprised when he has big moments like this. He'll probably need to win a finals MVP before his reputation really turns, c'est la vie.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Watching his career in real time, feels like all the last second hero ball step back prayers never seem to go but the stats say otherwise. Will he finally start to gain a clutch rep?

View: https://twitter.com/extra_muse/status/1885555738795208752

Most buckets to tie or take lead, final 5 seconds, since 2019-20:
12 — Jayson Tatum 9 — DeMar DeRozan
View: https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1885546778692321786

Jayson Tatum is making a resounding case for Clutch Player of the Year. Clutch stats (rankings):
79 PTS (6th) 29 FGM (2nd) 25 REB (5th) 20 AST (2nd) 3 go-ahead/tying FG in last 5 sec (T-1st) 63.2 2P% (24-of-38)
View: https://twitter.com/LegionHoops/status/1885546423636418817

The most shots made in the final 5 seconds for the lead or tie this season:
Jayson Tatum — 3-for-6 Tyler Herro — 3-for-8
View: https://twitter.com/DickLipe/status/1885538921926246862

CELTIC HISTORY: MOST FG FOR LEAD/WIN, FINAL :05 (Since 1996-97)
13 JAYSON TATUM 13 Paul Pierce 6 Antoine Walker 4 Ray Allen 3 Bradley, Brown, R. Davis, Fox, J. Green, Horford, Turner
But his clutch aura is zero.
 

JoeSuit

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I think there’s another aspect in play here. Other than PP’s desperation heaves, it seems Tatum always has the ball in his hands at the end of first half’s. I bet his success rate in these mock clutch situations isn’t that good.
 

RorschachsMask

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I think there’s another aspect in play here. Other than PP’s desperation heaves, it seems Tatum always has the ball in his hands at the end of first half’s. I bet his success rate in these mock clutch situations isn’t that good.
Tatum has been one of the most efficient end of quarter scorers in the league this season, or was as of a few weeks ago.
 

TripleOT

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Tatum was masterful in the last 15 minutes of the game in Philly last night. He wasn’t as dominant as he was in his legendary game six in Philly in that time frame but the result was the same.
 

RorschachsMask

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Nekias is one of the few media members who "watches" "basketball games", so it makes sense he gets this.
One day, more people will understand just what his screening does for the offense.

Sacrificial cuts, too, as he drags two guys with him. Which is funny because I believe I got pushback last year from someone here over praising cutting with no intention of being the scorer. Scal has pointed it out quite a bit recently, so I had to bring it up here again lol.
 

InstaFace

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Nekias is one of the few media members who "watches" "basketball games", so it makes sense he gets this.
This is also why I'm happy to put up with Scal occasionally being a doofus - the man watches several times more basketball than I do, just breathes the stuff, and I really respect someone who's 30+ years into Basketball-As-Life and is still super into it and excited to talk its nuances and watches several hours of it a night even on his off days.

I can't think of another time when we had a regular game commentator who was as much of a details sicko as Scal is. Maybe that one year Terry Francona called games for ESPN. Vintage Madden in that one respect, leaving aside that Madden was much better at many other things.
 

lovegtm

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This is also why I'm happy to put up with Scal occasionally being a doofus - the man watches several times more basketball than I do, just breathes the stuff, and I really respect someone who's 30+ years into Basketball-As-Life and is still super into it and excited to talk its nuances and watches several hours of it a night even on his off days.

I can't think of another time when we had a regular game commentator who was as much of a details sicko as Scal is. Maybe that one year Terry Francona called games for ESPN. Vintage Madden in that one respect, leaving aside that Madden was much better at many other things.
I can forgive a lot of doofusness in people who really care about something in life, and spend their time trying to convey that caring to others. Scal is really good at this, and the Celtics' broadcasts are just different from those of many other teams.
 

RorschachsMask

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One thing I’ve started seeing on Twitter and such, quite a few people are now starting to call Tatum a PG, which I know will make @lovegtm happy. Also, related to that, look at how under control this dude plays in crunch time. The numbers for Jamal Murray, Hali, and CP3 are crazy impressive as well.

 

lovegtm

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One thing I’ve started seeing on Twitter and such, quite a few people are now starting to call Tatum a PG, which I know will make @lovegtm happy. Also, related to that, look at how under control this dude plays in crunch time. The numbers for Jamal Murray, Hali, and CP3 are crazy impressive as well.

It's such a unique situation, because he's a high assist PG who can also post up or be a high-value screener, in crunchtime.
 

RorschachsMask

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It's such a unique situation, because he's a high assist PG who can also post up or be a high-value screener, in crunchtime.
I was looking up touches numbers, and amongst the guys who have at least 35 front court touches per game, the only lead ball handler that averages less dribbles and seconds per touch than Tatum, is Jokic.

He’s a crazy quick decision maker, and I feel like people are just now catching on.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I was looking up touches numbers, and amongst the guys who have at least 35 front court touches per game, the only lead ball handler that averages less dribbles and seconds per touch than Tatum, is Jokic.

He’s a crazy quick decision maker, and I feel like people are just now catching on.
I think JT would be better regarded by NBA fans if he had said early on his idol was magic, not Kobe.

Or Larry. I mean isn't JT a more athletic version of Larry who is a tad behind as a passer and as a shooter (latter statement maybe open to debate)?
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Tatum’s 40 points against the Knicks moved him into 9th place in the Celtics’ all time scoring list, passing both Dave Cowens and Jo Jo White (the latter of whom was actually good friends with Tatum’s grandmother growing up in St. Louis, for those who hasn’t seen that story).
 

Kliq

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Wow, KAT can't even feign to defense.

Also, Nike needs to make a better shoe for JT.
Last night should be VERY alarming if you are the Knicks, who saw their two best players just completely victimized all night on defense. Having good defensive wings only means so much if the other team can get favorable switches so easily.
 

RorschachsMask

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Over the last 4+ seasons, when defended by Towns…Tatum has 68 points on 25-35 shooting lol. There’s seals, and there’s KAT in space. He defended Tatum for SIX possessions, and JT went 5-5 with 12 points.

It’s amplified because he can’t do anything with JT defending him. 0 points on 30 possessions this season, 6-19 shooting over the last few years.

A big issue for the Knicks is Tatum regularly gets what he wants against Bridges and OG, too.