Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
12,308
You need to filter not by "Tatum-on, Tatum-off", but instead look for the JB/JT splits, since they always keep 1 of those 2 on the floor when healthy.

This year:
Both on: +10.7
JT only: +12.98
JB only: +10.87

They're doing just fine in the non-Tatum minutes, when JB is healthy. JB is a fucking stud, dating back to last year (his actual All-NBA year).


Splits with JB only are amazing. It's purely an injury thing, when they don't have both available.
yeah, slightly above average team without Tatum is ridiculous. I really can’t believe that’s a conversation point after these past 2 years. Unless anyone has inside info that Brown and others are throwing games then that line of thinking should be shot down immediately and not fostered at all.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
7,134
Lynn
I posted it last week, but they’re +6.5 without Tatum just in general now, regardless of who is on the floor, which is an absolutely elite number.

Even without either Tatum or Jaylen, they’re up to -2, and it’s been rising fast. Brad and Mazzulla have built a powerhouse system.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
24,545
Pittsburgh, PA
The point of the post was that Tatum seems to be sick of all the bullshit takes, and it’s pretty out of character for him to go back at someone.
Thank you, I agree. Tatum's response was notable. The twitter takes of some rage-bait merchant, not so much.

Oh yeah, saying why should we care is a genuine post. Nothing pretentious about that, didn’t sound like a dick at all.
There are a lot of people who post random bullshit on NBA twitter. Most of us are here because we have no time for any of that. Posting some of it, without context, invites the question of why this is worth putting through our collective filters. Posting tweets without context (and that aren't self-evidently notable) is regarded as poor enough posting that there are rules about it on other parts of this site, so forgive me if I prod a bit to get that context. If it wasn't me, it probably would've been the next regular who came along.

Also, there are thousands of former NBA players, only a few of whom are cultural icons that anyone would know. I don't sit around learning or remembering the names of all those former supporting cast members like I'm memorizing the phone book, and I imagine not many NBA fans do. Maybe that marks me as unworthy to talk ball with you, but if not then perhaps let's slow our roll and take some responsibility for how our posts get read by our audience, shall we?
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
7,134
Lynn
Thank you, I agree. Tatum's response was notable. The twitter takes of some rage-bait merchant, not so much.


There are a lot of people who post random bullshit on NBA twitter. Most of us are here because we have no time for any of that. Posting some of it, without context, invites the question of why this is worth putting through our collective filters. Posting tweets without context (and that aren't self-evidently notable) is regarded as poor enough posting that there are rules about it on other parts of this site, so forgive me if I prod a bit to get that context. If it wasn't me, it probably would've been the next regular who came along.

Also, there are thousands of former NBA players, only a few of whom are cultural icons that anyone would know. I don't sit around learning or remembering the names of all those former supporting cast members like I'm memorizing the phone book, and I imagine not many NBA fans do. Maybe that marks me as unworthy to talk ball with you, but if not then perhaps let's slow our roll and take some responsibility for how our posts get read by our audience, shall we?
How about you just ignore me, since you’ve made a handful of posts saying what I post isn’t worthy. A regular from this place was able to comment on it without being a dick, just below your initial reply.

Maybe we should slow our roll and take some responsibility for how our posts get read by our audience, yeah?
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
12,308
I’ve got no dog in this fight but I am very surprised that someone on this board wouldn’t know Brandon Jennings. He had a ton of hype around him back when he was in high school and his early years of the NBA.

I think he was the 1st player to go from high school to Europe to play pro? Also was a top 10 pick and top 3 in ROY voting.

This isn’t a Ryan Hollins type or a complete JAG
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
11,110
San Francisco
Jennings dropped 50 his rookie year. But he always sucked.

Anytime I see Gilbert Arenas talk it reminds me professional athletes can be idiots about their own sports. This was a role previously filled by Joe Morgan.
 

Smokey Joe

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,332
I’ve got no dog in this fight but I am very surprised that someone on this board wouldn’t know Brandon Jennings. He had a ton of hype around him back when he was in high school and his early years of the NBA.

I think he was the 1st player to go from high school to Europe to play pro? Also was a top 10 pick and top 3 in ROY voting.

This isn’t a Ryan Hollins type or a complete JAG
Some of us were distracted in 2008.
When his name was brought up, I initially thought he was some random interchangeable sports “journalist”. The kind that ESPN churns out. Upon reflection (googling), I find that he spent a year in Italy, then 4 years on some truly uninspiring Milwaukee teams 3 years on some equally uninspiring Detroit teams, bounced around and left the league. He has a 0.00% HOF probability.
I am not surprised at all that someone on this board wouldn’t know him.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
14,588
SF
yeah, slightly above average team without Tatum is ridiculous. I really can’t believe that’s a conversation point after these past 2 years. Unless anyone has inside info that Brown and others are throwing games then that line of thinking should be shot down immediately and not fostered at all.
I think OP was making a fine point, just didn't have the numbers right.

My point was that if you look at just Tatum on vs. Tatum off, the gap looks huge. However, if you look at JB on/Tatum off, there's almost no gap.

Basically, the Celtics are fine against opposing benches/mixed lineips in non-Tatum lineups that have JB, but do a lot worse when JB is hurt, or in garbage time.

This matches the eyetest: DWhite and PP have been consistently overmatched when they have to be lead creators, and are amazing when they can play with a Jay.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
24,545
Pittsburgh, PA
For those who rolled their eyes hard at the Brandon Jennings tweets, here is an article slamming it as "everything that's wrong with NBA coverage".

I'm glad to read that at least Gilbert Arenas called out the ridiculous takes as ridiculous live on-air.

Tatum may not be Bill Russell and he may not even be Larry Bird, but at the rate he's going, he's going to inspire some heated inter-generational debates about who the second-best Celtic of all time is.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
24,545
Pittsburgh, PA
How about you just ignore me, since you’ve made a handful of posts saying what I post isn’t worthy. A regular from this place was able to comment on it without being a dick, just below your initial reply.

Maybe we should slow our roll and take some responsibility for how our posts get read by our audience, yeah?
After a night's sleep, please accept my apologies for being more of a dick than was remotely necessary.

I generally enjoy your posts and think you're a very good poster.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
15,300
Good for Tatum for sticking up for himself. I think it's a really tall ask we make of professional athletes, that they be both best-in-the-world at basketball, with all the time and energy that Tatum clearly puts into that, and that they be elite communications professionals operating in the social media marketplace. Obviously, Tatum has help (at least I hope he has professional PR), but these kinds of things come right from the athletes a lot of the time and it's a tough thing to navigate - being funny without seeming defensive or coming off like a baby, blah, blah.

Tatum strikes me as a genuinely good person, a momma's boy sweetheart, who honestly doesn't get why his accomplishments and talent get a different sort of recognition than other players who haven't achieved what he has. What does he have to do to earn these people's praise, for fuck's sake? It's hard to internalize that sometimes people just say shit to get reactions because that's what you have to do sometimes to make money/be relevant in the media landscape. I mean, you don't HAVE to, if you have actual talent and insight and work ethic, but just like some NBA players get by on being super handsy and flopping, some media members do whatever it is that Kendrick Perkins does.

I think it's Tatum-Bird-Russell at this point and I expect to pick Tatum when all is said and done if he continues on his current trajectory. He's still getting better.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
8,457
JT as a teenager had won as many playoff series as Jennings and Arenas combined during their entire NBA careers, with Gil winning only one series, to five losses, and Jennings winning one series to four losses.

Both had checkered NBA careers, to say the least.

Arenas is basically a moron when commenting on NBA basketball. His dog that used to run a treadmill with Gil could provide more valid commentary. He’s a hater and a clown.

Jennings really shouldn’t be saying shit about anyone who can actually stick in the NBA, since he couldn’t. But as we have seen with Perk, hot takes equals eyeballs, which could lead to some money.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
7,134
Lynn
After a night's sleep, please accept my apologies for being more of a dick than was remotely necessary.

I generally enjoy your posts and think you're a very good poster.
Yeah man it’s all good, I’d much rather not argue with other Celtics fans lol.

I was a dick too, it happens.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
7,134
Lynn
I think OP was making a fine point, just didn't have the numbers right.

My point was that if you look at just Tatum on vs. Tatum off, the gap looks huge. However, if you look at JB on/Tatum off, there's almost no gap.

Basically, the Celtics are fine against opposing benches/mixed lineips in non-Tatum lineups that have JB, but do a lot worse when JB is hurt, or in garbage time.

This matches the eyetest: DWhite and PP have been consistently overmatched when they have to be lead creators, and are amazing when they can play with a Jay.
I think +6.5 without Tatum is an elite number, regardless.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
14,588
SF
I think +6.5 without Tatum is an elite number, regardless.
Ah yeah, didn't realize they had gotten to that, even including garbage time.

They've come a lonnnnnggg way since 2023 (where "they" = JB, DWhite, PP, Hauser), which goes to my musings in the "Center Cannot Hold" thread about whether KP is really the archetype we want at center.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
7,134
Lynn
Ah yeah, didn't realize they had gotten to that, even including garbage time.

They've come a lonnnnnggg way since 2023 (where "they" = JB, DWhite, PP, Hauser), which goes to my musings in the "Center Cannot Hold" thread about whether KP is really the archetype we want at center.
Without garbage time it’s up to +7.7 when Tatum sits, +11.2 without Jaylen, and +0.8 without either of them.

Mazzulla deserves a ton of credit there.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
14,588
SF
Without garbage time it’s up to +7.7 when Tatum sits, +11.2 without Jaylen, and +0.8 without either of them.

Mazzulla deserves a ton of credit there.
Yes, although it's funny: whenever Mazzulla and co. do a great job of player development (JB, DWhite, PP, Hauser, arguably Kornet), we move on to wondering why they can't develop the next guy better and have an even better bench (Walsh, Scheierman, etc).

I guess it's a credit to him that the goalposts keep moving like that.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
12,308
After a night's sleep, please accept my apologies for being more of a dick than was remotely necessary.

I generally enjoy your posts and think you're a very good poster.
In the end we were all winners because we got to talk about Brandon Jennings NBA career
 

DavidTai

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
1,452
Herndon, VA
Some of us were distracted in 2008.
When his name was brought up, I initially thought he was some random interchangeable sports “journalist”. The kind that ESPN churns out. Upon reflection (googling), I find that he spent a year in Italy, then 4 years on some truly uninspiring Milwaukee teams 3 years on some equally uninspiring Detroit teams, bounced around and left the league. He has a 0.00% HOF probability.
I am not surprised at all that someone on this board wouldn’t know him.
I remember Jennings mostly because the hype for him got insane after he was the youngest player to score 50 in a game.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nba/bucks/2019/11/14/revisit-brandon-jennings-55-point-bucks-game-10-years-later/4190068002/
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
20,950
Somewhere
Anytime I see Gilbert Arenas talk it reminds me professional athletes can be idiots about their own sports. This was a role previously filled by Joe Morgan.
Arenas is an idiot in a lot of ways beyond sports. I don’t think this comparison does justice to Joe Morgan.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
9,946
Oakland
Arenas is an idiot in a lot of ways beyond sports. I don’t think this comparison does justice to Joe Morgan.
Sure, but that's most former athletes. And current ones (Aaron Rodgers). What makes Arenas somewhat unique (and justifies the comparison to Morgan) is how dumb he seems to be about the NBA.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
12,308
I remember Jennings mostly because the hype for him got insane after he was the youngest player to score 50 in a game.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nba/bucks/2019/11/14/revisit-brandon-jennings-55-point-bucks-game-10-years-later/4190068002/
Yeah, I didn't think my post about him insinuated he was a good player or anything close to a HoF NBA player.

He had a ton of hype in high school (he was on a SLAM magazine cover with Ricky Rubio) and he was talked about a lot because he didn't go to college in order to play in Europe and get paid. And, as you mentioned, he scored 50 points in a game. He was one of those guys who would have pretty cool "mixtapes" but was never a very good player
 

88 MVP

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 25, 2007
561
WNY
Further to the Brandon Jennings discussion, Joe Mazulla wants to throw hands:

"First thought was, that's when you use one of your coins," Mazzulla said. "That's a coin."

For context, Mazzulla is referencing the alternate universe he imagined during an October interview with Zolak & Bertrand in which everyone in society has five "coins" they can use at any point in a given year to fight a random stranger.

"What if we all walked around with like five coins, right? And at any point in time, you can just hand one out, and you just challenge a guy to like, combat,” Mazzulla said at the time. “If you do pull a coin on a guy and he beats you up, like, that’s your fault. You've got to either train harder, or pick and choose your coins better.”
Joe is insane and I love him.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
33,561
Yeah, I didn't think my post about him insinuated he was a good player or anything close to a HoF NBA player.

He had a ton of hype in high school (he was on a SLAM magazine cover with Ricky Rubio) and he was talked about a lot because he didn't go to college in order to play in Europe and get paid. And, as you mentioned, he scored 50 points in a game. He was one of those guys who would have pretty cool "mixtapes" but was never a very good player
I picked up Jennings that year in fantasy basketball. As you mention, he was a highly touted player who was the first real prospect to skip college to play pro ball (Italy).

He's a lefty.

He had a pretty decent handle and could finish but he was a super inefficient chucker who scored dominated the ball that could lead to lots of counting stats but not much impact on winning.

BRef has Terry Rozier as most similar but Terry shoots way better than Brandon and doesn't dominate the ball as much.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
7,134
Lynn
What I remember most about Brandon Jennings was that Mike Gorman was very passionate about him winning ROTY over Tyreke Evans, because Jennings did it for a playoff team.

I did not agree with him lol.