Kawhi Leonard is exactly that.
+8 APE is extremely rare in the general public, much less so in the NBA.
Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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+8 APE is extremely rare in the general public, much less so in the NBA.
Rondo was 6’1 with a 6’9 wingspan.
Pierce was one of the strongest wings the league has ever seen, so I can kind of see the Paolo comp.
He’s a tough comp because he was such a unique player, but you can see all the current players who were clearly influenced by Pierce.
Mitchell is 6'3 with a 6'10 wingspan (plus dunk contest athleticism), which is what makes it frustrating when too often in his career, he's been a negative defender. Guys with this much of a split between their height and wingspan are more likely to be plus defenders.
Some quick others off the top of my head - Rob Williams is 6'9 with a 7'6 wingspan, Gobert is 7'1 with a 7'9 wingspan, Reggie Jackson is 6'2 with a 7'0 wingspan. Mchale was 6'10 with a supposed wingspan of 8'0 which has to be close to a record difference, but I'd take that with a grain of salt given how long ago it was.
Some quick others off the top of my head - Rob Williams is 6'9 with a 7'6 wingspan, Gobert is 7'1 with a 7'9 wingspan, Reggie Jackson is 6'2 with a 7'0 wingspan. Mchale was 6'10 with a supposed wingspan of 8'0 which has to be close to a record difference, but I'd take that with a grain of salt given how long ago it was.
And I believe there should be just as many people who have negative wingspans as the opposite, but there are only a handful of those guys in the NBA. Off the top of my head, Kuzma, Herro, Bane, and old friend Svi Mykhailiuk.
yeah, I love this.
Banchero may be taller than Pierce but they have pretty similar body types. Both of them are more “sneaky” athletic and highly skilled.
kudos to @CreightonGubanich
Pierce was well ahead of his time when it comes to efficiency, he was routinely WAY above league average in TS. His TS+ is just below Kawhi, for example, and that’s with those dreadful final two seasons with the Clippers dragging down all of his numbers.
He was an incredible foul grifter, the Harden of his time. He’d be an absolute monster in todays game of PnR/spacing. He shot 37% or better from three 12 times, and had another season of 36.6%. That’s while he played in a league with almost no spacing or movement.
He’d be a top 5-10 player IMO
He was an incredible foul grifter, the Harden of his time. He’d be an absolute monster in todays game of PnR/spacing. He shot 37% or better from three 12 times, and had another season of 36.6%. That’s while he played in a league with almost no spacing or movement.
He’d be a top 5-10 player IMO
Boxing is the only other sport that I can think of where it’s so strongly selected for. Elite rock climbers often have + ape indices but not always, and not so extreme as the NBA.
And in the NFL, no? Especially long arms are good both for offensive lineman and for pass catchers. Obviously those arms also need to be attached to a huge human (particularly on the former), but still.
I think Pierce was always one of a kind. He also made a living with the "upfake-absorb contact-get shot off" move in the midrange.
I feel like the minimum requirements for other skills in football are more difficult to hit such that the wingspan thing is much less common.
Bad technique for linemen will neutralize even extreme athletic advantages.
Significantly outplaying Giannis last night helped, but you can really see the narrative about Tatum changing amongst nba writers/fans. I was on Twitter yesterday and came across a thread by one of the aggregator accounts asking who people would take, Tatum or SGA, and the answers were overwhelmingly in Tatum’s favor, which shocked me lol.
Also, in a Jaylen moment by Tatum, he liked a tweet calling out Bontemps for being so weird about him. Celtics definitely in “fuck yall” mode this season.
Also, in a Jaylen moment by Tatum, he liked a tweet calling out Bontemps for being so weird about him. Celtics definitely in “fuck yall” mode this season.
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Tari Eason 6'8" with 7'3" wingspan (handwidth 11' vs Kawhi 11.25), according to this draft article
“I would say Kawhi (Leonard), a guy I coached,” said Houston Rockets head coach Ime Udoka when I asked about who F Tari Eason reminded him of. “He is young and does a lot of similar things as far as being disruptive.”
https://www.thestrick.land/strick/2022-nba-draft-profile-tari-eason-knicks
https://www.si.com/nba/rockets/news/houston-rockets-terror-twins-continue-to-anchor-tari-eason-amen-thompson
Am I the only one feeling a little nervous about Tatum sitting last night? I get rest days and I’m 99% sure he plays if the game was an important one, but this is a guy who has spoken about how important it is to play as much as possible, and has played in 93% of possible regular season games in his career, which averages out to 75-76 games played per year. When have we seen him take a rest day after already having the prior 4 days off?
If he wasn’t practicing, I’d be more concerned.
I think it’s just them being cautious+extra rest for a guy who could use it.
A few posts about this on the general thread, but by giving him last night off they gave him a full week if he plays tomorrow...if they sit him tomorrow since their next game isnt until thursday theyd be giving him 11 rest days. Then the schedule gets pretty nuts - basically every other night with one b2b from 12/19-1/7. 11 games in 20 nights.
Your
cool Thinking Basketball guys just did a podcast on MVP candidates. Ben had JT 4th. Cody - with the caveat that he was trying to predict how the media would vote - had him 6th, with the additional caveat that Cody believes that JT is definitely should be in the top-5.
It was definitely odd, but it's the Pistons and I imagine someone else (JB or White) will get the Wiz game off.
This team is embracing regular season GP/MPG restrictions across the roster. These guys are all about winning the LOB
Joker has (or should have) MVP locked up. JT will have to settle for the TOP5 narrative for a while
If he comes back and plays a lot in the next stretch, I'll just assume it's a new team MO, especially post-title.
CJM and staff have consistently trended towards more rest and more development since Joe's rookie year.
All the beat writers are posting video of Tatum goofing around at practice and yukking it up. It really doesn't look like a guy with an injury concern.
Bbref MVP tracker has him three behind Jokic and SGAYour
https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html
snowmanny has him two
How anyone has him sixth is beyond me.
...and only 564 more attempts before he passes 'Toine for chucks from 3 point land!
The First To the Floor podcast got Drew Hanlen as a guest talk about Tatum. By far the best of the Celtics podcasts IMO, though I’m biased on this matter. Drew said he yells at Tatum for settling too much lol, but understands there is a fine line there
View: https://twitter.com/jakeissenberg/status/1869187685128306907
View: https://twitter.com/jakeissenberg/status/1869101112479158461
View: https://twitter.com/jakeissenberg/status/1869187685128306907
View: https://twitter.com/jakeissenberg/status/1869101112479158461
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The really underrated thing about last night’s game—and Scal kind of alluded to this midway through the first half—was that this was a night where the C’s needed this kind of game from JT. The Bulls had kind of embarrassed the Celtics a little two nights before. They guarded our outside shooting well and played fast enough that our defense was also consistently late.
The thing is, this was sort of happening again in the first half last night. Neither team was shooting great, and the series of missed dunks by both teams in the first half kind of suggested there was a little attitude on both sides. But it was shaping up to be similarly close game until JT just completely took over in the 3Q.
We talk a lot about Tatum’s unselfishness as a player but less about his ability to dial it up and blow our opponent off the court when the team needs him to. Last night he did because we did. And it was beautiful. But what’s more impressive is how controlled Tatum is about where and when he does it. In this case, he waited for his team to pull it together for like 6+ quarters before he decided to go supernova. First he started crashing the boards and throwing dimes to his teammates. And only when it became clear that wasn’t enough did he start cooking with the heliocentric ball.
Are there any other players like that in the league right now? How many have there been in history? It’s honestly incredible to watch.
I might need an update on my green-tinted specs, but it seems kind of Bird-like. And I'm someone who has Bird comfortably in the top 10 all time.
In game last night, JT was compared to Bird and Hondo, my 2 favorite players, as the only guy to lead the team in Points, Rebs and Asst over a full season. And JT is still ascending.
Jayson/Havlicek* have to be 3/4 on the all-time Celtics list, in some order. All due respect to Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Kevin McHale, Paul Pierce etc.
And all due respect to Jaylen Brown, but the Brian Windhorst statement that Tatum is not the “clear-cut best player” on the Celtics is so ridiculously incorrect that it only proves that Brian Windhorst is either a liar with an agenda or he is an idiot.
* Havlicek: Four time all NBA 1st team, Seven time 2nd team, all-defense 1st or 2nd 8 times but that award didn’t start until eight or so years into his career. Eight time NBA champion, Finals MVP once but likely would have won at least one more (1968) if the award existed before 1969. And Tatum may be better.
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The Bulls were really taking away the base Celtics "advantage, ping, ping, 3-pointer" offense for awhile. JT and JB beasted them in the paint, and by the end of the 2nd quarter, Celtics offensive basketball was back.
This was a great example of why Hardwood Paroxysm's "just guard them straight them straight up and don't give up 3s" strategy doesn't work. The Bulls executed that pretty well, but once the Jays figured it out and committed to beating it inside, the Bulls were forced to defend like everyone else does, and the quality 3s + interior 2-on-1s showed up again.
By game score, you have to go back 125 games to find a better one by Tatum - game 7 against Philly when he put up 51/13/5.
Windhorst and others like him are cowards, because it's never "I think brown is better than tatum," it's always "there are some who think tatum isn't the best player on his own team." Nobody serious ever actually says the former because they'd have to defend it, and it's an impossibly stupid stance to take (and one that is only every brought up to bring tatum down, not to uplift brown) that immediately falls apart at the slightest pushback.
I had it on good authority from Matt Moore that this was the correct and sophisticated way to guard Boston, and that NBA coaches were morons for not doing it.
The Jaylen and Tatum thing is always so disingenuous There’s no rational argument for it being all that close between the two of them, which is why you never see people actually argue it lol, just empty statements.
The gap between a top 15 guy and a top 5 guy is really big lol. Jaylen is awesome, and I wish people would stop using him as a prop.
The gap between a top 15 guy and a top 5 guy is really big lol. Jaylen is awesome, and I wish people would stop using him as a prop.
The next iteration of The Discourse will come when people realize how good Jaylen is relative to other elite #2s around the league, as opposed to comparing him to Tatum.
It really is such a cheat code to have a ball-handling, playmaking wing (as opposed to other player archetypes) as your #2.
I don't know if the Jays "figured it out" or if Tatum just did some shit that no one else can really do.
If the guy who can beat just about everyone off the dribble and pass really well also goes 9-15 from 3 on these kinds of three pointers, well, you lose.
By "figured it out", I mean that Tatum blew up the Bulls attempts to not overhelp on drives/isos against their smaller defenders. Everything after that was icing on the cake: he could have shot 5/15 from 3 and it still would have been a comfortable win.
Funny Tatum stat, which will surprise nobody, but he’s shooting 6% better on pull-up threes than he shoots on any type of midrange shot.
@slamminsammya must be shocked. It is due for some positive correction though lol.
@slamminsammya must be shocked. It is due for some positive correction though lol.
Yeah, I think this is the correct way to frame it. The Jaylen is better than Tatum crowd is almost all media members who don’t watch that closely (TNT guys) and it’s based off of the ECF and Finals where Jaylen made a lot of big shots. As an aside, it’s probably good for both JAYs that this is a narrative. Jaylen has definitely thought that he’s been under appreciated (“I never win shit” after the ECF final) and it gives Jayson more motivation
Tatum is better than Brown, especially over a full season. He just has a higher floor and is more consistent. IMO, I think Tatum is top 3-4 and Brown is top 10-12.
Incredibly lucky to have them both.
This actually surprised me
View: https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1872380909661634761
Dude is cooking lately
View: https://twitter.com/jakeissenberg/status/1872386862062707002
View: https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1872380909661634761
Dude is cooking lately
View: https://twitter.com/jakeissenberg/status/1872386862062707002
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It’s one of those things that makes sense when you think about it for a minute. Tatum is averaging 9.5 rebounds per game, the last Celtic to average at least that many rebounds and play 65+ games was…Al Jefferson in 2007. Tatum is going to spend a lot of time being compared to the likes of SGA and Ant over the next few years when it comes to 2-way wings with no weaknesses, it’s a huge point in his favor if he’s averaging close to 10 rebounds a game.
I would have thought KG had done it, that’s the real reason I was surprised. I know his rebounding wasn’t near his Minny levels here, but he was still at 9 a game a few times.
Tatum is just cooking dudes in isolation, been the best in the league by a fair amount, filtering out the low volume guys. He’s also 7th amongst high volume guys in PPP as the PnR ball handler. These don’t include passing, either.
Luka won’t be eligible, and Denver probably won’t win enough games for Jokic to win IMO. I’d give SGA the edge right now, but I’d have Tatum right behind him. For the first time in a long time, advanced stats have Jokic less godlike this season. Here is the top 3 for the 3 most highly rated advanced stats
EPM:
SGA
Jokic
Tatum/Wemby
DPM
Jokic
Wemby/SGA
Tatum
LEBRON:
SGA
Tatum
Jokic
Wemby is scary lol.
Luka won’t be eligible, and Denver probably won’t win enough games for Jokic to win IMO. I’d give SGA the edge right now, but I’d have Tatum right behind him. For the first time in a long time, advanced stats have Jokic less godlike this season. Here is the top 3 for the 3 most highly rated advanced stats
EPM:
SGA
Jokic
Tatum/Wemby
DPM
Jokic
Wemby/SGA
Tatum
LEBRON:
SGA
Tatum
Jokic
Wemby is scary lol.
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