Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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Yeah, he could’ve justifiably been apoplectic over the officiating, but, in contrast to past years where it clearly would put him on tilt, he didn’t dwell too much on it. He made his point and moved on. Dude is such a great, mature all around player, and he seems like a guy who is constantly improving aspects of his game.
Tatum's passing and control of the offense really took a leap in playoffs last year. I wasn't sure we'd ever see him at the level of creater and orchesterator he's achieved - it's more subtle than a traditional ball-dominant guy and it is at least as impactful.
Really fun to watch.
Really fun to watch.
Anyone who said they saw him becoming this level of passer/creator is lying lol. I’ve said it here before, but he’s become the best passing wing I’ve seen outside of Lebron, who is way ahead of Tatum or any other wing. The caveat is that i have only really watched since the late 90s. Obviously Larry and some other older players were on another level as passes, too.
I thought he’d be Kawhi as a passer, just above passable.
I loved the hard foul at the end so much. Just a massive fuck you edge that you rarely see. I'm trying to think what current NBA stars would do something like that and the only one I can think of is Giannis. Just a drive to conquer and dominate and send a message to those swiping at your crown. The Kobe-influence on Tatum is rightfully derided on here, but I think that is one positive Tatum has taken away.
Imagine Luka in last nights game, not getting those calls?
Imagine Luka in last nights game, not getting those calls?
That’s because it is crazy. Jokic needs to miss 18 games or not remain the most dominant player in the league when he returns. He’s been that good.
Btw, he is out due to the birth of his first son.
Personal reasons aren't really the same as undisclosed reasons (the latter is why Embiid missed the first few weeks of the season), rumor is that it's the pending birth of his child. He'll come back and have more than enough games to qualify, as always (he played 69 games in 2023, the only year in which he was under 70 games played, even the pandemic years).
Yeah, I mean, statistically:
Jokic: 29.7 points (56.3% shooting, 56.4% from three!), 13.7 rebounds, 11.7 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, 15.3 BPM, 1.6 VORP
Tatum: 29.9 points (46.4% shooting, 39.4% from three), 8.1 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.5 blocks, 8.0 BPM, 1.4 VORP
Denver is 7-3 with Jokic, 1-2 without him (this is a longstanding trend, in contrast to how well Philly actually does without Embiid). Tatum hasn't missed a game so nothing to look at there.
Jokic is far and away the MVP right now. As great as Tatum has been, it's not really very close at all. The guy is unbelievable.
"Inside track" is too much, but he's one Jokic heartbeat away. The NBA narrative likes Tatum more than the other guys comparable to him, for the first time.
Yeah, I mean, I love me some Tatum, but Jokic is the best player on Earth and deserves the MVP every year until he isn't.
Dude is averaging 29.7ppg, 13.7rpg (leads the NBA), 11.7 apg (leads the NBA), he's playing 38.1 minutes per game (previous career high is 34.6), he's got the highest PER of his career at 33.3 (he's lead the NBA in this stat for 4 consecutive years), his TS% is at .667, he leads the NBA in Assist% at a fucking ludicrous 52.6%, he leads the NBA in WS/48, VORP, OBPM, BPM...
Oh, did I mention the guy is also leading the NBA in fucking 3p% at 57.6% on 4 attempts per game?
It's video game like shit he's doing out there. They lost their first two games of the season, and he only played 36 and 35 minutes, and basically was like "fuck this, I'm playing every minute until we win the game."
One thing I’ll say, this is the JT we all hoped for last season. The 23/24 C’s dominated with JT’s shooting being off. A healthy KP and a hot shooting JT are going to be a very, very tough out. Seemed like he willed the C’s to not allow the Cav’s to tie or take the lead last night.
Someone said it in the gamethread - maybe you - but I think the biggest upgrade in attitude for Tatum is that he got over the bad calls quickly and didn't let them affect him. Make your point, then get your head into the next play. The "drive to conquer and send a message" is downstream of stopping worrying about things you can't control (the refs). Can't have the former until you get past the latter.
Tatum did to Mitchell what Grant Williams was trying to do to JT when he trucked him, y guessing his dribble path and making an extremely hard charge to that spot. Grant being oafish, he fell much short of what he was guessing would be the dribble point. Tatum being a better athlete came much closer to it, and didn’t get rung up of improper contact.
Mitchell is good friends with both Jays. JB put him on the deck at least once in that well hyped regular season big game.
Mitchell is good friends with both Jays. JB put him on the deck at least once in that well hyped regular season big game.
Tatum was clearly reaching for the ball, as the replays showed. He guessed wrong on the timing and/or was late, but he was going for the ball. If Grant had actually made a play on the ball, I don't think that JT would have been as salty about the result.
Grant went shoulder to shoulder, no reaching for the ball.
View: https://youtu.be/q1cNzZhT_ek?si=hy-1CVv7CncKbpdJ
By comparison, Mitchell said his reaction was more because his face hit Tatum's shoulder.
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2024/11/20/donovan-mitchell-jayson-tatum-hard-foul-collision-celtics-cavs-comments/
When was Jayson salty? He gave the correct PR answer in deflecting the one question that was asked in the post-game presser and the two spoke afterward.
This is not remotely a description of what Grant Williams did. He took an angle to make a tackle the way a safety does.
Tatum was trying to anticipate angles with Mitchell coming off a screen. Everything happened fast and both of them probably had some visibility limits. It’s nothing like Grant Williams shoulder checking Tatum while they were both traveling at full speed in a wide open court.
I honestly have no idea how salty he really was, beyond hopping up like he was ripshit and the story about how Wings Night was cancelled.
I guess the few people missed that I wrote that Grant was “trying to do.”
Grant was trying to speed rapidly into the spot where Tatum would dribble next, and he failed miserably.
Tatum was trying to get into the spot that Mitchell was going to dribble nexf, and didn’t get there, but was so physical that he knocked the hell out of him
I agree there's parallels. Grant was just far more reckless (And with more potential to cause injury, given the long accelerating run-up) in his shoulder-charge than what Tatum did.
He’s been ice cold from mid range, 4-28 over the last ten games. Other than that, he’s actually been getting better in the restricted area and on ATB threes as the season has gone on.
Feels like the 62-63% TS is realistic, especially with KP coming back soon.
Feels like the 62-63% TS is realistic, especially with KP coming back soon.
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He should just retire those elbow jumpers. Teams should celebrate giving him that.
The problem is if you remove that option, it makes him easier to defend in crunch time. Teams can crowd his 3 point shot and force him to drive, and when the refs swallow their whistles on contact at the rim at the end of games, it really ups the difficulty for him. He's big enough, fast enough and has a good enough handle to get a decent mid-range look off against nearly all defenders, he can't eliminate those entirely from his game without making things harder elsewhere. Keep working on it and hope it's improved by the playoffs.
That’s just over the last ten games.
He’s historically a very poor midrange shooter, pretty massive sample size. I’m fine with him mixing some in, but I’ve given up on it ever being a real weapon for him.
It's also not a very efficient shot when you have the skills Tatum has. And it's not like you can just sag off Tatum if he's not shooting them, because he can just step back and shoot the 3 reasonably well or build momentum to drive.
I would guess that's a function of many of those shots being difficult turnarounds. There's room in his game for easier mid range shots. It's by no means a necessity but why not have it in the bag and use it when needed, often in close games at the end where a bucket becomes more important than efficiency? It's the Paul Pierce shot, essentially. Get to the elbow in rhythm. Knock it down.
He’s been bad at those for several years now. I don’t think it opens up anything for him. Teams play him tight because they don’t want him getting a head of steam to the rim, not because they’re worried about him pulling up at the elbow.
It wasn’t until the final 7:15 of the game that JT hit double figures last night, scoring 16 total points on a gaudy 6-for-19 shooting line. It’s uncommon, and if it has to happen against anyone it’s best a team like WAS, but holy hell was that frustrating to watch in person.
7 of Tatum's 10 misses from three were from 27 feet or deeper. Three at 29 feet. Only four of JB's 10 misses from three were that deep, and one was the last-second shot he should have given to Pritch. Something was up with Tatum's shot selection last night. Very strange.
I haven’t been able to watch all of every game yet but it seems that JT is trying to increase his range at least a couple of feet deeper.
I'm ok with this? It's a big win if he can pull it off, because of how much driving space it creates, and how much further off help has to come from.
JT is great at pre-dribble reads, and makes good simple passes when guys set up to help too early.
I'd be ok with it if he was any good, but anecdotally it seems like a high percentage of his 3's more than one step beyond the line are off by a mile, more likely to miss the rim entirely than they are to go in. Given all of this other offensive skills, I'm not sure this is really a tool he needs in his bag.
Maybe they had a team outing Thursday night after the White House lol. Al missed the game sick, Tatum went 6-19, White was cold as hell until the 4th and finished 4-11, Jaylen was 11-27, and everyone had some ugly ass turnovers/multiple air balls.
White, Jaylen, and Tatum all finished strong, which is all that matters.
White, Jaylen, and Tatum all finished strong, which is all that matters.
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Didn't we say the same thing about Jaylen as a ballhandler, then they gave him in-game reps, he improved, and it turned out to be incredibly valuable? They might not win the title without the improvement Jaylen made there just in '23-24.
No guarantee JT's long-range shooting turns into that, but it's absolutely worth not optimizing regular season efficiency to see whether it does.
I'm definitely not against the idea of working on things that you're bad at now so that it pays dividends down the road, but this isn't in the same category as Jaylen's handle, which was always slightly overblown due to his turnover fest in game 7 against Miami (and I think some nationally had conflated with Tatum's turnover issues in the 2022 playoffs). It was never unreasonable to expect a 6'6 wing to tighten up his handle and playmaking, but how many 6'9 guys can hit 28 footers off the dribble with enough consistency to force opposing teams to respect it? It's not a totally unusual shot for small guards (Curry and Lillard obviously, and guys like Pritchard) but off hand I don't know that there is even a handful of bigger guys that have that shot in their bag.
If Tatum's gonna take shots he's struggling with I'd much rather have him working on his mid-range game. There's a lot more room for reasonable growth there, plus it's absolutely a shot he'll need to have in the playoffs when things get tight.
It reminds me of when Al was making a concerted effort to get off his threes more quickly a year or two back.
JT’s 0-10 brick fest in DC lowered his three point percentage from 39.4 to 37.1.
He will need to go 12-20 from three to get back to his percentage before the Wizards game, which should be doable
I’d like to see JT at 40% from three this season. With JB and Hauser shooting down from three, Tatum hitting at a higher clip would balance that out, until the other wings get it together from deep.
He will need to go 12-20 from three to get back to his percentage before the Wizards game, which should be doable
I’d like to see JT at 40% from three this season. With JB and Hauser shooting down from three, Tatum hitting at a higher clip would balance that out, until the other wings get it together from deep.
Right. It isn’t as if Tatum is coming over halfcourt saying I think I’ll take a lower pct middie here. There is defensive resistance that is trying to prevent Tatum from an open 3 as well as getting all the way to the rim…..this is especially true when the shot clock is under :10 when Tatum’s options become limited by good defense. So now you have a lower pct shot, coupled with good defense and going up against the shot clock……he shoots a low pct on these because the defense forced the lower pct shot. It does happen sometimes. If he purposely tried to limit these shots the offensive flow would suffer.
There aren't many (any?) guys of Tatum's size who take his volume of 3s in general, particularly self-created ones, so not sure why player size is a useful data point in this particular instance?
I was curious about the shot clock thing because my impression is he is often not forced into these due to the shot clock, which is why they are frustrating. I don't get annoyed if you have to get a shot off late clock. So I checked his past 8 games for all instances of the fadeaway on NBA.com and annotated the shot clock situations. Late clock is italicized:
@Milwaukee
- Gets the ball with 13, shoots with 8
- Gets the ball with 16, shoots with 13
Brooklyn
- Gets the ball with 19, shoots with 14
- Gets the ball with 6, shoots with 1
- Gets the ball with 8, shoots with 5
@Washington
- Gets the ball with 19, shoots with 14
- Gets the ball with 19, shoots with 15
Cleveland
- Gets the ball with 18, shoots with 11
@brooklyn
- Gets the ball with 9, shoots with 5
- Gets the ball with 12, shoots with 8
Totals: 10 fadeaways, 3 late shot clock.
There's only 5 games because in 3 of them he didn't shoot any fadeaways.
I wish he'd trim the fat of the early shot clock iso fadeaways. If you watch the video it isn't like he's being forced into them. He very much has the look of wanting to get to that shot. I think we all may be familiar with the setup - he gets the ball at the elbow, back to the basket, and sometimes you can just feel it coming.
Maybe this is a Mazzulla thing, I don't know. But I think there's still meat on that bone for him to replace those shots with something else.
It’s nice to see just how consistent these numbers are staying, besides the mid range lol. Also, after teams were letting Tatum slip for some open corner threes early in the season, they decided that was a bad idea.
Feels like he gets wherever he wants on the court, even the mid rangers are mostly on his terms (gross) as opposed to a last resort. 29/9/6 on a 62% TS and the on/off numbers he’s putting up? Legitimate MVP stuff, if Jokic didn’t exist
If it wasn't for Jokic it would be a thrilling MVP race between Tatum and SGA. The latter had a relatively slow start statistically but has more than turned it around, averaging 34/5/7 with 2 steals and 1 block per game with a .633 TS while OKC has gone 7-2 in the 9 games since Chet got hurt. This is the SGA that was the MVP favorite (or co-favorite) with Luka to open the year.
If it weren't for Jokic, Tatum would probably win the lifetime achievement MVP award this year, if he kept this up.
He's gotta have a couple of close calls first, he's only got one top 5 finish right now (4th, in 2023). Can't win a lifetime achievement award when you're just 26 and have never received even one 1st place vote (I believe that's the case).
He could win the best player on an historically great team version this season, I think. If the Celtics repeat and are a dominant team again next year he probably is a front runner next season on that basis despite Jokic’s greatness.