I think everyone is pretty confident that Tatum would be more than willing to take those shots and that it wouldn't take very many of them for him to find a groove.
Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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I still think it’s worth a shot. Maybe he goes 9-15 and you lose by 30. But there’s a non-zero chance he goes 4-15 and it gets in his head.
It was Timpf, I believe, who pointed out that during the Mavs’ dominant period in 3Q, there was a period where the Celtics offense didn’t get into the paint for a solid 5+ minute. That suggests that they weren’t running their offense. So it seems like trying to lure the Celtics in that direction could be worthwhile. On the other hand, having seen that happen, even I could coach that problem: Hey, guys… run the fucking offense, will ya’?**
Also: Jaylen Brown almost single handedly put the kibosh on that run—looked like a high school senior breaking up a middle schooler fight. So that doesn’t really bode well for the Mavs.
**Really appreciate your write-ups on Mazzulla Ball, by the way; the Celtics executed so well on Thursday you could just see it. Great stuff; thanks.
*Edit: Correction: 4ish minutes without getting into the paint, 6 minutes getting into the paint only twice. And they broke out of it with drive and kicks on 6 out of the next 7 posessions.
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Good piece on the Celtics (and specifically Tatum’s) greatest playoff attribute: His rebounding.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40301319/nba-finals-2024-why-celtics-rebounding-edge-underrated-key-series
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40301319/nba-finals-2024-why-celtics-rebounding-edge-underrated-key-series
Boston is at its best when getting clean defensive rebounds, meaning their awesome team defense forces the offense to take a trash shot, and everyone is in position to box out and clear the glass, usually uncontested or with just one offensive rebounder. Tatum has been great at snagging contested defensive rebounds.
The series thread has Tatum discussions, but I will post here.
He didn't play well and looks to have lost confidence in his shooting. He isn't playing like the best player in the series, but he is doing a lot to help them win. Maybe he isn't the alpha, or MVP we want him to be, but he doing what it takes to win. I think his success at such a young age, and the recent trend of big numbers (due to players entering NBA earlier, and a high scoring era) lead to all kinds "No Celtic did _______ by age ____ except Tatum" has created some unreasonable expectations to Bird and Pierce. He probably will never be the clutch scorer either guy was, and will never be the GOAT forward like Larry was in his day, but he is an excellent all around player, and if the Celtics continue and win that will be the narrative, the better team won and Tatum is the best all round player.
The emergence of Jordan, Stern's decisions to promote individuals over teams, the cult of Kobe, has laid out the false narrative that scorers dominate. If you notice in all the nostalgia promoting the finals the Russell Celtics are virtually always absent. Some of this in NY/LA bias, but also it is bias to promote stars not teams. It is one reason Tim Duncan and the Spurs five rings are treated like they didn't happen, they were a team. All the hype of the dimwits on the pregame show before game 1 was about how the team with two best scorers was destined to win, but it is team game and Tatum is a team player. I do hope he shoots better though.
He didn't play well and looks to have lost confidence in his shooting. He isn't playing like the best player in the series, but he is doing a lot to help them win. Maybe he isn't the alpha, or MVP we want him to be, but he doing what it takes to win. I think his success at such a young age, and the recent trend of big numbers (due to players entering NBA earlier, and a high scoring era) lead to all kinds "No Celtic did _______ by age ____ except Tatum" has created some unreasonable expectations to Bird and Pierce. He probably will never be the clutch scorer either guy was, and will never be the GOAT forward like Larry was in his day, but he is an excellent all around player, and if the Celtics continue and win that will be the narrative, the better team won and Tatum is the best all round player.
The emergence of Jordan, Stern's decisions to promote individuals over teams, the cult of Kobe, has laid out the false narrative that scorers dominate. If you notice in all the nostalgia promoting the finals the Russell Celtics are virtually always absent. Some of this in NY/LA bias, but also it is bias to promote stars not teams. It is one reason Tim Duncan and the Spurs five rings are treated like they didn't happen, they were a team. All the hype of the dimwits on the pregame show before game 1 was about how the team with two best scorers was destined to win, but it is team game and Tatum is a team player. I do hope he shoots better though.
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I'd like Tatum to shoot better too, but he was the best player on the floor imo (yes I know people will shriek that that's insane). I just can't get there with Luka: the Celtics are exploiting him like he's 2017 IT4. He's giving it all back on the other end, and he is putting Boston's defense into rotation only rarely.
His D is so bad (against this particular team) that he can put up an efficient 30 point triple double and still be the 4th or 5th best guy out there. He's getting mauled.
He could still win a title in his career, because you need to have a team with Boston's shooting+playmaking to really exploit what he's bad at, and he beat a lot of good teams to get here.
Sorry. I agree with your statement, but I meant do you think Tatum was better than Jrue or Brown tonight? I get what he brought to the table, but to say he was better than either of them really emphasizes playmaking over shot making.
I think Jrue doesn't have near the game he does without Tatum consistently breaking down the D, so yes. Brown is tougher: he was also doing a great job initiating, but the turnovers ding him for me. Close, though, and I wouldn't begrudge someone taking JB.
In general, I think drastically overvalue play-finishing and efficiency as opposed to initiation, unless the initiator has all his shots falling. Having your shots fall is great (and would have made this a blowout), but it's only a part of elite offense.
He didn't score/shoot well. He played great d had 9 rebs and 12 assists. He was one rebound away from a triple double.. usually that's an ok game.. and he is doing what it takes to win as you say.
Larry averaged 42.8 mins, 25.9 points, 9.3 rebounds and 8.2 assists in 1986 in the playoffs
Tatum is averaging 40.9 mins, 24.9 points, 10.3 rebounds and 6.3 assists in this year's playoffs.
Bird shot better from 2 and 3... but most are saying Tatum isn't having a great playoffs.
Given that his shot hasn't been going in I'm glad he's driving and kicking or trying to take the ball to the rim... in year's past he would have kept shooting. I think, possibly to a fault, he's taken the philosophy of finding the best shot available to heart and is often looking far more to pass right now while his shot isn't falling. The philosophy has been very effective though and the C's offense has definitely benefited from all five players being involved regularly.
I also hope he shoots better, but win two more games and nobody will care.
It’s not just playmaking, him cracking them off the dribble is breaking down their entire defense. It’s leading to open shots for everyone else, everyone else is getting to play 1 on 1 with an advantage. He probably had 20+ rim drives tonight, and 20ish potential assists.
Defensively, him staying so disciplined has completely negated the lob threat, which is a huge part of the Mavs offense. On top of that, he was also guarding 1-4 on switches when the occasional called for it.
He needs to hit more shots, obviously lol, everybody knows that. But him missing an extra 3 or 4 shots matters less than consistently creating open looks for others and what he’s doing defensively.
Defensively, him staying so disciplined has completely negated the lob threat, which is a huge part of the Mavs offense. On top of that, he was also guarding 1-4 on switches when the occasional called for it.
He needs to hit more shots, obviously lol, everybody knows that. But him missing an extra 3 or 4 shots matters less than consistently creating open looks for others and what he’s doing defensively.
He's doing more than getting to the rim; he and Brown are methodically executing a clear gameplan that totally breaks Dallas' D.
Every single time, the plan was:
- identify a matchup for Tatum or Brown
- get the switch
- dribble into the paint, and wait for Dallas to help (they always help, because they always get beat on the perimeter)
- if the layup or foul is there, great
- if not, pass to the perimeter, doesn't even have to be a great pass
- now Dallas is in rotation, maintain the advantage until you get the 2-on-1 for 3 or at the rim
This is the advantage of having both Tatum and Brown: you can run the same gameplan all game, because they can take turns and not wear out. What redundancy?
I do think Duncan is a great comparison, even though they're very very different players. In both cases, they present huge problems for the opposition, and the problems are on both ends.
Shotmaking is great, but, as you say, it's only a part of basketball. The genius of this version of the Tatum Celtics is that they are built to exploit teams that have prioritized shotmakers uber alles.
It is social media basketball which the NBA was able to segway into a massive TV contract. I get why the NBA does it. The problem is people the Ringer have bought into it. If you listen to the players after Game 1 you can see they all got what was happening (besides Perks god bless him) but Simmons and Orsillo are sitting there mystified how could Kyrie and Luka lose.
The Pacers without Hailburton were better than these Mavs. The Knicks against the Pacers were better than these Mavs. The West was not as good as people thought, the Nuggets just were on cruise control then ran into KAT figuring out basketball / confusing the fuck out of Joker for 4 games. KAT immediately reverted back to KAT and Edwards was completely out of juice.
They're probably most like the Celtics teams of the past.. there's a reason 2008 and 1986 had 'the big three'.. this team is more spread out than those. They're more like the early Celtics teams that were also loaded and played ultra team oriented ball. They're the swiss army knife of basketball teams.. and that doesn't fit with the need to have one alpha that can be promoted.. so ESPN or whomever can say 'Tatum vs Luka' or whatever. I love how this team plays...it's so nice to watch a team that can have any player on the court step up at any time.
Great thing is this team may be ahead of schedule.
The Knicks are such an interesting "what if". That team, if healthy, was really really good. If they can convert Randle into a second scorer, things get interesting in the East.
Them getting Mitchell would be interesting. Such a small backcourt defensively, but he’s so freaking dynamic lol, and he plays bigger than he is.
His arms are long and he's strong. The "6-1" thing doesn't really represent what he is at all. He'd be fine on D playing for Thibs imo, particularly with Brunson sharing the offensive load.
That would be a scary, scary team.
I keep thinking of something that @HomeRunBaker said that was word for word something that I’d been thinking about:
Is there a difference between how we think of best player and most important player?
Yes as well as most valuable player. Right now I would say Brown is the best player, Jrue is the most important, and Tatum is the most valuable player in this series.
Luka would be the best player but christ his defense is so so so so so so so bad. Him and Kyrie are so disruptive towards decent team defense. The rest of the Mavs have absolutely no clue how to defend a five man game. They are built to stop one or two players.
It wasn't even all that efficient when you remember he also had 8 turnovers. 2 games in and Luka's is rocking a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio to go along with his last in class defense.
Piggy backing on this, as a long running Tatum guy the thing I wish he was getting more credit for is legitimately being able to guard 1-5 defensively. He’s not our best wing man defender, but specifically him and Jrue’s flexibility and basketball IQ is our true difference in this series. I think this is the game we should have lost based on numbers, but their ability to hold the fort defensively, not allow Dallas into any advantageous matchups besides a Luka solo mid range post up is the true difference of this years team. Watching the D (-and offense) it’s clear how much of a captain/vocal leader Tatum is on calling out rotations and sending help at the right time/ moment while also being someone a center, or point guard can’t pick on when he gets positioned in an on ball iso situation. I don’t think there’s many guys in the nba that can do what he’s doing defensively at a high level, never mind if you start factoring offense. It’s basically Kawhi and that’s it. Our system defensively is so predicated on his versatility and decision making that to me he’ll never get the credit he deserves. I just wanted to call this out, we appreciate it because we watch, but like Jrue in the Miami series, even when his shot isn’t falling he is such a defensive ace in the hole that other teams just can’t hunt out advantages or soft spots in our D besides iso contested 2’s.
I said he hasn'
If you look at Celtic history he could replace the weakest starter on almost any Celtic team. Maybe it would be stretch to play him at 2 for Ainge or 5 for Perk, but also maybe not.
No offense Rev but I hate this framing as a coach. Every team I've coached my best player is my most important player without exception. You want to take my most important player off my team then unless I'm super deep I am screwed. JB can be the so-called best player for a handful of games or whatever that means but JB isn't much without JT on the floor which makes JT my best player not just my most important one. When JT went down with his ankle in game 7 v the Heat on the first play did you all not see Spo's relief expression? Like he knows way more about basketball than anyone here. So the Heat hounded JB and JB was all-time awful bc that's beyond his paygrade.
How has Kidd (and all three previous playoff opponent coaches) decided to defend the Celtics? He leaves JB one on one. Do you think he sweats this? Maybe. But he's picking poison and based of years of expertise, he loads up v Tatum and has the second line defender stationed right behind the ball and brings a third defender when Tatum gets below the foul line. The NBA coaches who know way more than all of us are telling us who the most important and best player is. This should be a forum for recognizing what the experts are shouting to us. Instead, we are getting caught up in stat lines, cumulative stats, narratives, cute phrasing, and all the BS that should belie what it means to be a member of SoSh.
No. Duncan was easily the best player of his generation. Our team is awesome but we have no Duncan.
Stop you’re smart enough to know what I meant. But you tell me about basketball.
As someone who lived in SA during the time, it honestly feels more like the pre-Duncan Robinson years where DRob basically did everything but always got criticized by guys like Jim Rome for being too “soft”, “nice”, “not clutch”, etc. I will say that Tatum’s temperament does remind me a lot of Duncan though. Just a quiet stabilizing force.
I know that some posters here brought up Tatum becoming hesitant to shoot in Game 2. I'm not going to rewatch the game to see if that was the case. However, during the end, after White's 3 pointer put the Celtics up by 14 with 3:34 to play:
1.) Tatum moves into the paint, opening up a lane for White to take a jumper, which he missed. Tatum was a bit out of position for the rebound, but he might have essentially ended the game had he been able to grab it.
2.) Brown attempted to pass to a wide open Tatum having coffee and doing his crosswords outside the arc, but the pass was stolen instead.
3.) Tatum gets the ball, fakes a 3, moves into position for a better shot that he simply misses.
4.) Tatum is forced to reel in a bad pass from White at the baseline to prevent it from going out of bounds, and needs to pass it back outside before his momentum carries him out. The sequence ends with a Brown missed three before the clock expired.
5.) Tatum goes iso, leaves Doncic in the dust, but Derrick Jones makes a nice play to block the shot.
6.) Brown takes the ball to the rim for the clincher, the play that followed the White block that Breen insists was a foul. GAME OVER.
Tatum misses 2 good shots, the shots you want him to take. I get that we expect the star to make those shots, and that is not an unfair expectation. But the idea that Tatum was too passive in the end game needs to die. I don't see a bad play by Tatum in that stretch.
1.) Tatum moves into the paint, opening up a lane for White to take a jumper, which he missed. Tatum was a bit out of position for the rebound, but he might have essentially ended the game had he been able to grab it.
2.) Brown attempted to pass to a wide open Tatum having coffee and doing his crosswords outside the arc, but the pass was stolen instead.
3.) Tatum gets the ball, fakes a 3, moves into position for a better shot that he simply misses.
4.) Tatum is forced to reel in a bad pass from White at the baseline to prevent it from going out of bounds, and needs to pass it back outside before his momentum carries him out. The sequence ends with a Brown missed three before the clock expired.
5.) Tatum goes iso, leaves Doncic in the dust, but Derrick Jones makes a nice play to block the shot.
6.) Brown takes the ball to the rim for the clincher, the play that followed the White block that Breen insists was a foul. GAME OVER.
Tatum misses 2 good shots, the shots you want him to take. I get that we expect the star to make those shots, and that is not an unfair expectation. But the idea that Tatum was too passive in the end game needs to die. I don't see a bad play by Tatum in that stretch.
Got a little chuckle thinking about anyone wishing Tatum had a little more Duncan Robinson in him...
I don't think either of those would be a stretch, provided the team took into account what Tatum can do instead of demanding he try to "be" Ainge or Perk.
2010 finals, game 7, Perk injured and unavailable. Rasheed Wallace played 36 minutes and was completely gassed in the end before he fouled out. In games 1-6 of the series he played 18, 18, 19, 22, 15, and 17 minutes. Behind Wallace the Celtics played small anyway with Big Baby at C.
Obviously, if Tatum is there and starts that game at C, the Celtics win.
The 87 Celtics, JT starting at guard would have worked because he would have been the best option to defend Magic, no?
I have no issues with Tatum's hesitancy in the final minutes. I think earlier in the game he, and the Celtics more generally, were passing up threes. But I think the blocked layup is not a shot you want him to take. Missed layups lead to fast breaks and easy points and it has rightly been a point of emphasis for the Celtics under Joe to avoid that.
I think that play sequence is a bit of a mixed bag; I keep watching the replay on nba.com. Tatum starts out milking the clock, with only Luka guarding him. Then with about 5 seconds remaining on the shot clock, he goes iso on Luka (good move) and gets into the paint. Dallas seems to be in decent position to prevent any kick out passes to Holiday, Brown or White until Tatum starts his move to the basket. Horford is in good position for a rebound, so perhaps Tatum thought he could make the play against Jones, hoping that Al could collect any miss.
Maybe a mid-range jumper would have been the better shot there, despite the resulting groans from the game thread if/when he missed it. But an easy layup ends the game, and I have to believe that's what Tatum (incorrectly) perceived as he was driving. Of course, a pass into the stands would not have been the worst outcome, but that could just as easily turn into a pass into an opponent's hands as well.
JT is playing more like Magic without the highlight reel passes than Kobe - that is, Magic with plus defense.
I've been saying this since the Miami series: you can't really argue with the revealed preferences of top NBA coaches. They ALL think that Tatum is BY FAR the Celtics' most dangerous player.
This isn't even a me stanning Tatum thing: I love JB! But I have to be intellectually honest about what I see on the court.
80% of the Mavs defense is designed to stop Tatum. You can tell the difference between Brown and Tatum when Brown blows by Luka, Tatum's man stays clung to him. When Tatum blows by Luka, everyone collapses into the paint.
2012 Tatum making his bones. Enjoy.
View: https://twitter.com/hochman/status/1798870813346574742?s=46
View: https://twitter.com/hochman/status/1798870813346574742?s=46
Why isn't Tatum this teams Duncan,?obviously not the exact same skill set, but someone who does everything well, treat his teammates with respect and puts them in positions to succeed. Albeit probably not the best in league at any one category ( such as end of quarter scoring).
And of course,f Kobe forever
I think their team roles and styles are similar but Duncan never took this much shit from media types, either locally or nationally, which is why the Tatum stuff reminds me more of Robinson.
I think that the Duncan blueprint is perfect for Tatum and he’s basically the modern wing version of Duncan at this point. Simply does it all.
Duncan was the best defender in the league. Either him or KG but they were heads and shoulders above everyone else at the time.
I mean he's almost averaging a triple double in the first two games, is largely responsible for the Mavs lack of paint offense, and is highly likely to see his quality shots fall in Games 3/4. Noteworthy to me how different the betting odds are (50/50 MVP) vs the media coverage.
This sport is much more fun if you find enjoyment in it. My god man. Celtics haven't lost in a month and you're just full of negativity.
Honestly, that’s how I read it too. Amazed that the Heat couldn’t get it done with Duncan-Robinson.