Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top

BigSoxFan

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Single game +/- can lie, as well all know. I don’t think it did tonight. Between his defense, and the defensive attention, he opened up a ridiculous amount of open shots. I think he was trying to feel out the Mavs scheme, which led to some silly turnovers, but I’m pretty confident he has a monster game 2.

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You almost wonder if Kidd’s adjustment will be to see what Tatum does with less attention. The Mavs must know by now that if they let everyone else get cooking, they have little chance to win.

So, why not see if you can get Tatum into ISO mode like he was at the end of the half. Of course, the downside of that approach is that if he starts cooking, he can drop 40 on you.
 

Montana Fan

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Tatum did everything you need to win, but people will die on the Luka cross (how he got 10 rebounds is beyond me). Is Luka the worst defensive starter the Celtics have gone against in the playoffs? Herro?
Luka was all tuckered out when Kidd pulled him with 5 minutes left in the 4th. Keep making Luka work. He’s lucky that there are 2 days off. He has a bunch more defense to play in the next 3-4 games.

The Mavs may be better next game but I’m expecting the Celts to find some more efficient ways to outplay the over matched Mavs on both ends.

What do you think Brad and Joe are doing right now? I’d bet a thou that they’re doing a first watch of the film.
 

TomRicardo

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Single game +/- can lie, as well all know. I don’t think it did tonight. Between his defense, and the defensive attention, he opened up a ridiculous amount of open shots. I think he was trying to feel out the Mavs scheme, which led to some silly turnovers, but I’m pretty confident he has a monster game 2.

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Holy shit. WHAT IN THE NAME OF HIS GORGEOUS MILF IS LUKA DOING HERE?

He couldn't be in worst position if he was trying. He is literally defending no one. KP, Derrick White, and Jaylen are wide open. He is not blocking Tatum's passing lane to KP. So he is doing ZERO on defense. Sure Kyrie is pretty useless here now trying to plant his feet for a charge in the restricted zone.

Luka instead of hanging at the top of the paint and hoping for a long semi meaningless rebound, why don't you at least get to the top of the ark for a transition pass?

This picture should be shown immediately as soon as anyone says Luka is the best basketball player alive.
 

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Holy shit. WHAT IN THE NAME OF HIS GORGEOUS MILF IS LUKA DOING HERE?

He couldn't be in worst position if he was trying. He is literally defending no one. KP, Derrick White, and Jaylen are wide open. He is not blocking Tatum's passing lane to KP. So he is doing ZERO on defense. Sure Kyrie is pretty useless here now trying to plant his feet for a charge in the restricted zone.

Luka instead of hanging at the top of the paint and hoping for a long semi meaningless rebound, why don't you at least get to the top of the ark for a transition pass?

This picture should be shown immediately as soon as anyone says Luka is the best basketball player alive.
83796
 

TomRicardo

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You almost wonder if Kidd’s adjustment will be to see what Tatum does with less attention. The Mavs must know by now that if they let everyone else get cooking, they have little chance to win.

So, why not see if you can get Tatum into ISO mode like he was at the end of the half. Of course, the downside of that approach is that if he starts cooking, he can drop 40 on you.
If I was Kidd I would have Luka watch tape of Sam Hauser. "Can you possibly just do this?"
 

lovegtm

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You almost wonder if Kidd’s adjustment will be to see what Tatum does with less attention. The Mavs must know by now that if they let everyone else get cooking, they have little chance to win.

So, why not see if you can get Tatum into ISO mode like he was at the end of the half. Of course, the downside of that approach is that if he starts cooking, he can drop 40 on you.
The problem is that Tatum knows exactly what his gameplan is now. If you let him iso, he's going to drive. If he drives, he's going to beat his guy, so you have to collapse.

Once you collapse, he's learned from 2022 and 2023. He's going to kick to the perimeter, a guy will play with advantage, and now it's a 2-on-1 for a 3 or a layup.

Sure, Tatum takes a couple bad shots each game, but his base plan against any D is so good right now that the simple "iso and late help" stuff is done for.
 

lovegtm

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Holy shit. WHAT IN THE NAME OF HIS GORGEOUS MILF IS LUKA DOING HERE?

He couldn't be in worst position if he was trying. He is literally defending no one. KP, Derrick White, and Jaylen are wide open. He is not blocking Tatum's passing lane to KP. So he is doing ZERO on defense. Sure Kyrie is pretty useless here now trying to plant his feet for a charge in the restricted zone.

Luka instead of hanging at the top of the paint and hoping for a long semi meaningless rebound, why don't you at least get to the top of the ark for a transition pass?

This picture should be shown immediately as soon as anyone says Luka is the best basketball player alive.
From March, but an evergreen tweet:

View: https://twitter.com/AdamDavis/status/1795110778711822503
 

riboflav

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Haven't caught up on the thread tonight but wrote this in the game thread:

Tonight, bc of how Dallas defends with their zone and even their man, you could really see when Tatum caught the ball on the perimeter, his mind working and reading how Dallas is set up defensively. Dallas shows their hand early on defense and it allows Tatum, who may be the second best player in the NBA in these read situations, to assess what he needed to do. Drive, which way?, pass to where depending on that drive, and more. Brown was terrific. Take Brown off the team tonight and the Celtics still win but it'd be close. Take Tatum off the team tonight and they probably lose. I know this is confusing for box score fans. But, he unlocks everything.

EDIT: he had several passes to the weak side perimeter in the shot pocket on drives when he was on the other side of the rim. I've only seen one guy who can do that better than Tatum.
 

lovegtm

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Haven't caught up on the thread tonight but wrote this in the game thread:

Tonight, bc of how Dallas defends with their zone and even their man, you could really see when Tatum caught the ball on the perimeter, his mind working and reading how Dallas is set up defensively. Dallas shows their hand early on defense and it allows Tatum, who may be the second best player in the NBA in these read situations, to assess what he needed to do. Drive, which way?, pass to where depending on that drive, and more. Brown was terrific. Take Brown off the team tonight and the Celtics still win but it'd be close. Take Tatum off the team tonight and they probably lose. I know this is confusing for box score fans. But, he unlocks everything.

EDIT: he had several passes to the weak side perimeter in the shot pocket on drives when he was on the other side of the rim. I've only seen one guy who can do that better than Tatum.
Once you see how he unlocks things, it's hard to unsee.

It only works because he plays with other guys who know how to play out of advantage.....but that's why you get those guys! Other teams had DWhite, Jrue and KP, and didn't deploy them nearly as well.
 

riboflav

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Luka was all tuckered out when Kidd pulled him with 5 minutes left in the 4th. Keep making Luka work. He’s lucky that there are 2 days off. He has a bunch more defense to play in the next 3-4 games.

The Mavs may be better next game but I’m expecting the Celts to find some more efficient ways to outplay the over matched Mavs on both ends.

What do you think Brad and Joe are doing right now? I’d bet a thou that they’re doing a first watch of the film.
I have no idea. But, the best way to support Joe is probably to allow Joe and his assistants to watch the film separately and then together as a staff. Meanwhile, Brad is watching it. Joe might meet with Brad in 24 hours. Typically coaches watch film four times through before they make their first note. The last two are in slow motion. You're up all night. Then, you discuss it with your staff and watch one together. Then, you make a power point and have film with your team.
 

riboflav

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Once you see how he unlocks things, it's hard to unsee.

It only works because he plays with other guys who know how to play out of advantage.....but that's why you get those guys! Other teams had DWhite, Jrue and KP, and didn't deploy them nearly as well.
Yeah I mean this is why it's so apparent this year as opposed to last year. It frustrates me that more cannot see it. He was doing this last year. (2022 was spotty but he learned SO much from how the Heat and Warriors loaded up on him). It's one thing to pass to Smart, limited, Brogdon, limited, Timelord, limited. It's another to pass to guys who can use their skills so that when they attack the advantage they're presented in that they can shoot in space, drive the long closeout, and either finish or kick or dish again or make the one-more pass. But, you need someone to start it all. This can sometimes be another Celtic but it is most consistently is what Tatum does. It's what he can always do. He's the second best at this in the game. I can see an argument for third best. But, whatever.
 
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riboflav

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As a comparison, JB is great and is honestly improving his playmaking ability before our very eyes which is great to see and it makes the Celtics way more lethal. But, it's not as sophisticated at Tatum, just not on the same level. Brown does the Ant thing where he can make the simple read and next pass really well; something he couldn't do in the past. But, he doesn't always know how to attack the defense as a whole and what is the optimal option for the personnel on the floor for his team and for the opponent.
 

lovegtm

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Given CJM's love for soccer, it's relevant that there are a lot of similarities in how Tatum plays and how elite soccer players unlock the field without necessarily scoring or assisting, particularly on loaded clubs where they're surrounded by finishing talent and advantage-exploiting talent.
 

riboflav

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Given CJM's love for soccer, it's relevant that there are a lot of similarities in how Tatum plays and how elite soccer players unlock the field without necessarily scoring or assisting, particularly on loaded clubs where they're surrounded by finishing talent and advantage-exploiting talent.
It pretty common now for basketball coaches to watch a lot of soccer. But, not all do. I doubt Kidd does.
 

lovegtm

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It pretty common now for basketball coaches to watch a lot of soccer. But, not all do. I doubt Kidd does.
Yeah, I'm not claiming it's some secret weapon lol, and I know you're not either.

More noting that there are ways to use guys who collapse players to them if you're confident that the other guys will play out of the advantage. It's wild to watch how good the Celtics are at turning 2 defenders at the rim into a 2-on-1 later in the possession.
 

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Given CJM's love for soccer, it's relevant that there are a lot of similarities in how Tatum plays and how elite soccer players unlock the field without necessarily scoring or assisting, particularly on loaded clubs where they're surrounded by finishing talent and advantage-exploiting talent.
I’ve been wondering lately, especially reading a lot of your posts but also a bunch of others who emphasize this angle on the game, if there wouldn’t be a place to apply some adapted version of the shape of the team on the field graphics that are used in soccer to better see what is going on and the impact players have just by virtue of being on the court.

We’ve got SoSHers with the proper skill sets; wonder if there could be money in it. I’m honestly not sure why it doesn’t exist yet.
 

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Yeah which is why he’s the greatest pnr guy of all time sorry Luka. But given his personnel in Brooklyn… I mean..
There’s an interview out there with Thierry Henry where he says he loves watching Nash play, but gets kinda confused sometimes when people rave about some of his plays because he’s like, “Isn’t that obvious? That’s what I would do there.” It’s a pretty awesome flex. :cool:
 

riboflav

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Yeah, I'm not claiming it's some secret weapon lol, and I know you're not either.

More noting that there are ways to use guys who collapse players to them if you're confident that the other guys will play out of the advantage. It's wild to watch how good the Celtics are at turning 2 defenders at the rim into a 2-on-1 later in the possession.
Yeah everything in the modern game is about getting 2-on-1 in transition certainly and in the half court. It pains me to go to my son's practices and watch the coaches work 3-on-2 advantages. You can count on two fingers how many times this happens in any game at any level. And even, then, the advantage is the corner three but, no, coaches are teaching both wings to cut the 45 and dive to the rim, which takes away the advantage. I hate youth coaches is my rant.
 

riboflav

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There’s an interview out there with Thierry Henry where he says he loves watching Nash play, but gets kinda confused sometimes when people rave about some of his plays because he’s like, “Isn’t that obvious? That’s what I would do there.” It’s a pretty awesome flex. :cool:
See if you're going to continue to hit Ribo in the feels with Coach Nick citations and Herny citations, I'm gonna accuse you of spying on my fam.
 

Reverend

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See if you're going to continue to hit Ribo in the feels with Coach Nick citations and Herny citations, I'm gonna accuse you of spying on my fam.
Heh. I don’t claim to know a great deal about basketball—I don’t have the vision it requires that I didn’t even know about until a later age—but I am very good at figuring out and keeping track of who to listen to.

Also: The kitchen trash needs emptying.
 

m0ckduck

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Just needs to clean up the turnovers, which he will. He was caught in between scoring and passing a few times on drives, now that he has a better feel for how they defend, watch how aggressive he will be in game 2.

View: https://twitter.com/stevejones20/status/1799028942575485365
I thought he just had butterfingers early. He seemed to settle down as the game went along— I believe all of his turnovers occurred by the early 3rd quarter.

Also: not to sound like Simmons and Simmons' dad, but he could try to finish a few more of those drives. Even when he misses the layup, he's drawn all the defenders to him and the odds of a putback by one of our guys is good (as happened late in the game with Horford). It seemed to me that Dallas was guessing "kickout" on some of those and playing the passing lanes rather than crashing the boards, so might be good to switch it up a bit in G2.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Single game +/- can lie, as well all know. I don’t think it did tonight. Between his defense, and the defensive attention, he opened up a ridiculous amount of open shots. I think he was trying to feel out the Mavs scheme, which led to some silly turnovers, but I’m pretty confident he has a monster game 2.

View attachment 83794
This is how DAL played Ant. Two big differences: 1) Ant isn't passing to one guy as skilled as DW, JB, KP, or Jrue, much less 4, and 2) Ant doesn't have the ability to make all of the passes.

Yet.
Tatum was very good tonight. He manipulated the defense, made some very good passes, took what was given to him

But there’s no way anyone could convince me he was the best player on the floor in Game 1. That was Jaylen Brown
(The above is in response to Tatum having the best +/- in the game)
Actually Jrue was +/- leader at +20. And boy was he good on the defensive end.
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum did not play the best on the court last night, but he will always get defended like he is, and you’re starting to see people catch on to how important that really is. The amount of work he does off ball is incredibly rare for a 3/4, especially a superstar. Just saw that he had 14 potential assists, and was the guy who consistently broke Dallas down which eventually led to an open shot, which doesn’t get credited as anything. Had 18 drives, which led the team, but only took two shots off of them, and somehow didn’t get fouled on one (refs lol). That’s why I’m so bullish on game 2, because if Dallas plays for the pass more, he’s going to crush them finishing at the rim.

Jaylen did exactly what he was supposed to offensively last night. Destroy mismatches, get out in transition, and make the right pass if nothing is there. Defensively he was a fucking monster lol. It was close to the best game I’ve ever seen him play tbh.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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I dunno. He's supposed to be the team alpha and he didn't take his first shot until 3 minutes left in the first. He didn't hit his first shot until 1 minute left in the quarter. In that time he had a foul and 2 turnovers.

I wouldn't say they're winning despite him, but his contribution has been minimal. The last two drives he had, Dallas barely helped or collapsed on him at all. I think we need more from him.
I think it is fair to criticize him for the 6 turnovers, many of which weren't great. But they aren't here up 1-0 in the Finals without him.
 

mostman

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Yeah everything in the modern game is about getting 2-on-1 in transition certainly and in the half court. It pains me to go to my son's practices and watch the coaches work 3-on-2 advantages. You can count on two fingers how many times this happens in any game at any level. And even, then, the advantage is the corner three but, no, coaches are teaching both wings to cut the 45 and dive to the rim, which takes away the advantage. I hate youth coaches is my rant.
If you have tips for standing on the sidelines at a youth game or practice for a sport you once played or coached and not internally raging at your kid’s coaches, let me know. I feel like this is my kryptonite. And, in my head, I’m always trying to tell myself “Don’t be one of those parents. Don’t be one of those parents…”
 

lovegtm

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I thought he just had butterfingers early. He seemed to settle down as the game went along— I believe all of his turnovers occurred by the early 3rd quarter.

Also: not to sound like Simmons and Simmons' dad, but he could try to finish a few more of those drives. Even when he misses the layup, he's drawn all the defenders to him and the odds of a putback by one of our guys is good (as happened late in the game with Horford). It seemed to me that Dallas was guessing "kickout" on some of those and playing the passing lanes rather than crashing the boards, so might be good to switch it up a bit in G2.
The Celtics have a clear team philosophy to not take contested layups, particularly against multiple defenders.

The main reason is defense: if you miss that shot, the other team is going 5 on 4 the other way a LOT.

The Celtics have the best transition D in the league, and a lot of it is because they're really disciplined about not taking tough layups.
 

Auger34

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I just want to point out Tatum made his first elbow jumper he took in the 4th and proceeded to shoot two more of them in like the next 4 possessions.
After he made the first one and missed the second on the next possession, I immediately thought of you
 

lovegtm

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View: https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1798881038468280727

Kevin O'Connor: The growth of Jayson Tatum on display here. Lively plays great defense but an incredible pass by Tatum to White for the corner 3
Did Lively play great defense? Tatum was able to turn the corner and force help. Once he does that, it's over: you're in rotation, and the Cs are getting a 3 or a layup.

I only nitpick here because Luka isn't the only pressure point that Boston attacked. Tatum and JB were relentless in getting Dallas centers switched out, and then driving and forcing late help.
 

RorschachsMask

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Did Lively play great defense? Tatum was able to turn the corner and force help. Once he does that, it's over: you're in rotation, and the Cs are getting a 3 or a layup.

I only nitpick here because Luka isn't the only pressure point that Boston attacked. Tatum and JB were relentless in getting Dallas centers switched out, and then driving and forcing late help.
I just posted this in the series thread, but it fits what you’re saying with your last point.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/1799085625368519038?
 

lovegtm

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I just posted this in the series thread, but it fits what you’re saying with your last point.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/1799085625368519038?
Yup. Dallas' whole defensive identity involves loading to the ball, sending late help, and trying to rotate behind that. Boston's offense was destroyed by that type of D in 2022 against MIA & GSW, and in 2023 against MIA.

All personnel changes, coaching schemes, and Tatum/JB development emphasis since then have been focused on countering that type of defense.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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If you have tips for standing on the sidelines at a youth game or practice for a sport you once played or coached and not internally raging at your kid’s coaches, let me know. I feel like this is my kryptonite. And, in my head, I’m always trying to tell myself “Don’t be one of those parents. Don’t be one of those parents…”
Volunteer to be a coach.
 

chilidawg

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Did Lively play great defense? Tatum was able to turn the corner and force help. Once he does that, it's over: you're in rotation, and the Cs are getting a 3 or a layup.

I only nitpick here because Luka isn't the only pressure point that Boston attacked. Tatum and JB were relentless in getting Dallas centers switched out, and then driving and forcing late help.
If I'm Dallas I take my chances on Lively on Tatum at the rim and stay at home on the other guys. Irving actually picks off Lively on this play. Helping!
 

nighthob

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They were taking that chance and Tatum roasted Lively. Lively might one day be a great defensive player, that day won’t be happening in the next week.
 

lovegtm

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They were taking that chance and Tatum roasted Lively. Lively might one day be a great defensive player, that day won’t be happening in the next week.
Yep, everyone wants to talk about Luka because of the mano a mano stuff, but the real win for Boston is that Tatum and Brown have been roasting Dallas' centers.

When you combine that with Luka and Kyrie, it leaves Dallas with two choices:
- late help at the rim, and hope you somehow can rotate behind and run everyone off the line
- play soft on Tatum and Brown and dare them to take iso 3s

They tried the first one already. They can try the adjustment of doing it harder and better, I guess. The second would be.....interesting to watch, and I'm not ruling it out.
 

JCizzle

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Yep, everyone wants to talk about Luka because of the mano a mano stuff, but the real win for Boston is that Tatum and Brown have been roasting Dallas' centers.

When you combine that with Luka and Kyrie, it leaves Dallas with two choices:
- late help at the rim, and hope you somehow can rotate behind and run everyone off the line
- play soft on Tatum and Brown and dare them to take iso 3s

They tried the first one already. They can try the adjustment of doing it harder and better, I guess. The second would be.....interesting to watch, and I'm not ruling it out.
I haven’t dug below the top line number to understand the split between contested, open, etc., but Tatum has been struggling so much with his three that I’m not sure why teams wouldn’t try your second option?
 

bsan34

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Yep, everyone wants to talk about Luka because of the mano a mano stuff, but the real win for Boston is that Tatum and Brown have been roasting Dallas' centers.

When you combine that with Luka and Kyrie, it leaves Dallas with two choices:
- late help at the rim, and hope you somehow can rotate behind and run everyone off the line
- play soft on Tatum and Brown and dare them to take iso 3s

They tried the first one already. They can try the adjustment of doing it harder and better, I guess. The second would be.....interesting to watch, and I'm not ruling it out.
I think Kidd was setting up the second today.
 

RorschachsMask

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I haven’t dug below the top line number to understand the split between contested, open, etc., but Tatum has been struggling so much with his three that I’m not sure why teams wouldn’t try your second option?
They’re scared that it gets him going and into one of his grooves.
 

RorschachsMask

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He’s shooting like 30% from 3 over his past 40? 50? playoff games. If you’re up against the wall, I think I’d try to see if I can get him to take 15-20 3s in a game and just pray.
I don’t think there’s any scenario where he’d take that many, they’d just find another soft spot in the Mavs defense.

I said in another thread that I’d just defend him straight up, but like lovegtm said, teams don’t want to give him clean looks for a reason. I just don’t see a solution for the Mavs lol, other than the Celtics going ice cold.
 

lovegtm

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I haven’t dug below the top line number to understand the split between contested, open, etc., but Tatum has been struggling so much with his three that I’m not sure why teams wouldn’t try your second option?
Very reasonable question, so let me answer it with another question: when was the last time that you saw teams let Tatum comfortably shoot iso 3s on the perimeter without getting up into him?

No one has been willing to let him take iso 3s without hard challenges for the past 5 years.
 

JCizzle

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Very reasonable question, so let me answer it with another question: when was the last time that you saw teams let Tatum comfortably shoot iso 3s on the perimeter without getting up into him?

No one has been willing to let him take iso 3s without hard challenges for the past 5 years.
Very fair - I know we’ve seen it with Jaylen (the GSW explosion), but can’t think of a team trying Tatum.