Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top: The Man is Non-stop

luckiestman

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Tatum Appears to @benhogan
24 Now Ben Hogan(A) (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Tatum came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side,(B) I will not believe.”(C)
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Ben Hogan was with them. Though the doors were locked, Tatum came and stood among them and said, “Peace(D) be with you!”(E)27 Then he said to Ben Hogan, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”(F)
28 Ben Hogan said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Tatum told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;(G) Luckiest are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”(H)
 

benhogan

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Tatum Appears to @benhogan
24 Now Ben Hogan(A) (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Tatum came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side,(B) I will not believe.”(C)
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Ben Hogan was with them. Though the doors were locked, Tatum came and stood among them and said, “Peace(D) be with you!”(E)27 Then he said to Ben Hogan, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”(F)
28 Ben Hogan said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Tatum told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;(G) Luckiest are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”(H)
I'm trying Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd
 

Jakarta

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So Drew Hanlon was in Boston working with JT yesterday and JT immediately goes for 49 on 8-12 from 3. I remember this happening last year too. Amazing how well he knows JT and can fix his shot.
 

OnTheBlack

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So Drew Hanlon was in Boston working with JT yesterday and JT immediately goes for 49 on 8-12 from 3. I remember this happening last year too. Amazing how well he knows JT and can fix his shot.
Celtics should pay this guy whatever he wants to be exclusive to the C’s.
 

kazuneko

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Question:
Just finished watching the game and feel confused about how Tatum ended up with 49 instead of 50. Didn’t he have 47 before the three technicals in the final seconds?
 

jmcc5400

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Question:
Just finished watching the game and feel confused about how Tatum ended up with 49 instead of 50. Didn’t he have 47 before the three technicals in the final seconds?
He took the “first” technical while the refs were still dealing with Bam. It didn’t count. The next two were the “official” free throws.
 

benhogan

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So Drew Hanlon was in Boston working with JT yesterday and JT immediately goes for 49 on 8-12 from 3. I remember this happening last year too. Amazing how well he knows JT and can fix his shot.
Wyc/Steve/Celtics need to buy Pure Sweat or at the very least do a partnership/consultancy agreement where Pure Sweat is advising on Celtic camps. Basically, anything that puts Hanlan & his crew in the Auerbach Center as much as possible to work with Jay and the rest of the roster
 

bakahump

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The princess also seemed to have approved based on the shots during the game. Bakette mentioned a couple times. "ohhhh she likes him..."
 

Smokey Joe

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I haven't listened to him in a while - he's not a Tatum guy?
It started when he absolutely trashed Ainge for trading down to the third pick in the draft for Tatum rather then taking what’s-his-name. He has been a Tatum skeptic ever since.
 

Deathofthebambino

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So Drew Hanlon was in Boston working with JT yesterday and JT immediately goes for 49 on 8-12 from 3. I remember this happening last year too. Amazing how well he knows JT and can fix his shot.
I could be completely wrong, but when I was at the game on Monday night, Tatum looked to be bringing his arms really low and then going into his jump shot. It was a kind of herky jerky movement (whereas a guy like Hauser kind of catches and shoots, but the ball really never goes below his numbers). This video below (ignore the commentary which is brutal, but you can see Hauser's shooting motion) shows it quite well:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzq-RyBlMko


Tatum has always brought the ball down pretty low, kind of in conjunction with his knee bend, but on Monday night, and for the prior couple weeks, it seemed more pronounced than previously, especially when he was wide open. The only time he really didn't do that drop motion so deep was on his step back 3's with a guy in his face. Here's his shot:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swkox47fmBQ


Last night, he seemed to be much more fluid, quicker release, and wasn't bringing the ball down as much. It's hard to find videos of his misses, and I'm certainly not Drew Hanlon, but it seemed pretty apparent in person the other night. Almost like he was working on his shot in the middle of the game.
 

Jimbodandy

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I am glad to have been beating the drum on this recently--JT goes on bad streaks like this and then fixes something. Someone better than I can pull the numbers, but I'm 100% sure that you'll see long stretches of him shooting both 30% and 50%. Probably other guys go through this too, but we don't watch them closely enough.

It's a joy to have a guy who works so relentlessly on his game that problems like this don't go unaddressed. Nevermind that everything else is so solid now that he could probably put up >60TS on 30% from 3, since he's finishing like prime Wilt and getting to the line like him too.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I am glad to have been beating the drum on this recently--JT goes on bad streaks like this and then fixes something. Someone better than I can pull the numbers, but I'm 100% sure that you'll see long stretches of him shooting both 30% and 50%. Probably other guys go through this too, but we don't watch them closely enough.

It's a joy to have a guy who works so relentlessly on his game that problems like this don't go unaddressed. Nevermind that everything else is so solid now that he could probably put up >60TS on 30% from 3, since he's finishing like prime Wilt and getting to the line like him too.
Did anyone catch his postgame last night? I can't find it online, but immediately after the game, I think when he was talking to Abby, he started by saying something along the lines "It was nice to finally make some 3's." He knew it, he worked on it, because that's who he is. It's pretty fucking awesome.
 

DGreenwood

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Did anyone catch his postgame last night? I can't find it online, but immediately after the game, I think when he was talking to Abby, he started by saying something along the lines "It was nice to finally make some 3's." He knew it, he worked on it, because that's who he is. It's pretty fucking awesome.
Here it is:
View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1598149895289913344

I love that he blames missing one free throw as the reason he didn't get 50.
 

koufax32

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WRT his shot, I’ve noticed this season that he seems to have been starting his load up almost on the left side of his body, or at least in the middle, even on free throws. The result has been the ball moving in a diagonal toward the top of his load (before the forearm begins stage two and fires the ball toward the basket) instead of going straight up. You can see it in those slo-mo’s. That just doesn’t look right to me. Was he doing this at the end of last season and last night?
 

benhogan

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WRT his shot, I’ve noticed this season that he seems to have been starting his load up almost on the left side of his body, or at least in the middle, even on free throws. The result has been the ball moving in a diagonal toward the top of his load (before the forearm begins stage two and fires the ball toward the basket) instead of going straight up. You can see it in those slo-mo’s. That just doesn’t look right to me. Was he doing this at the end of last season and last night?
Good pick-up. His stroke was fluid last night.

When going bad from 3 he has a tendency to get mechanical with a long wind-up

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR01IKsqN7A
 

Jimbodandy

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Also interesting seeing Jaylen at #10. He has no chance (short of Tatum missing half the year to injury with the Celtics still winning 60 and Brown stepping up his play accordingly), but good to see him on the list, and definitely good for his chance at making all-NBA.
DARKO has Jaylen at #15. Seems about right. All of that is his offense, as he is listed as a -0.1 D-DPM.

Clearly team record factored a lot into the rankings (not overwhelmingly, but a lot).
 

lovegtm

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As good as Tatum has been this year, there's a clear gameplan against him now, and teams that prep keep going to it: hope he doesn't heat up from 3, then let him drive and bring lots of late help at the rim.

He handles doubles fine, but he's atrocious against late help, and forces way too many bad shots. He doesn't seem to know where the passes are to keep the offensive advantage in those spots.

It's good it's happened to him multiple times now this early, but it's tough to fix in the regular season, because most opponents aren't cohesive enough to install that gameplan on the fly. Miami and GSW are, but the Cs only get one more crack at each of them this year.
 

Mooch

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If last night was the blueprint, it’s essentially “hope that Tatum misses threes and relatively easy layups around the basket… oh, and hope that he doesn’t get calls that game.”

Every great player has bad games. Let’s not overreact here.
 

lovegtm

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If last night was the blueprint, it’s essentially “hope that Tatum misses threes and relatively easy layups around the basket… oh, and hope that he doesn’t get calls that game.”

Every great player has bad games. Let’s not overreact here.
I agree part of the blueprint is to hope he misses 3s.

I disagree that the layups were easy. They were showing bodies, and so he wasn't able to do the "I'm either gonna score or you foul me" thing he does to draw fouls now.
 

Mooch

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I agree part of the blueprint is to hope he misses 3s.

I disagree that the layups were easy. They were showing bodies, and so he wasn't able to do the "I'm either gonna score or you foul me" thing he does to draw fouls now.
I saw a handful of attempts last night that were within two feet of the basket that he’s been converting all season that rimmed out. I honestly don’t think that the Warriors did anything special or unusual to Tatum last night. He just had some tough luck, as did the entire team who missed a week’s worth of wide open 3s in one game.
 

benhogan

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Everything the W's did over the last week was to set themselves up to play their best for this HOME game with BOS. And throw a monkey wrench into Tatum's game...And they did.

As they have done countless times Steph (and Klay) delivered in the spotlight. Tatum didn't (it was the same in the Miami game last week), he was tight from the TIP... "Tatum - MVP Candidate" is a new hurdle. The Laker game on Tuesday, the XMas Day game against the BUCKs, Jan. 18th, etc will be more tests. As the season moves along JT will process the MVP spotlight, will grow into this role, and deliver on the bigger stages. It's what he does.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If last night was the blueprint, it’s essentially “hope that Tatum misses threes and relatively easy layups around the basket… oh, and hope that he doesn’t get calls that game.”

Every great player has bad games. Let’s not overreact here.
When his worst performances seem to consistently come against likely playoff opponents, that is a cause for concern.
 

benhogan

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When his worst performances seem to consistently come against likely playoff opponents, that is a cause for concern.
If he was 29 and had no room for improvement it may be cause for concern. I suspect we'll look back at this at some point and wonder how anybody doubted him. 40% 3pt shooter is the only thing holding him back from being the best player on the planet. That may happen sooner than expected, he's notoriously a 2nd half of season player.
 

lexrageorge

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When his worst performances seem to consistently come against likely playoff opponents, that is a cause for concern.
He scored 29 in Miami, 49 against the Heat at home, 31 against the Raptors, 29 against the Nets while shutting down KD, and 35 against Philly.
 

RorschachsMask

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When his worst performances seem to consistently come against likely playoff opponents, that is a cause for concern.
Against possible playoff teams so far this year

Hawks- 19/7/8 on a 46% TS
Nets- 29/11 on a 67% TS
Cavs- 29/9/5 on a 62% TS
Bulls- 30/10/6 on a 60% TS
Mavs- 37/13/5 on a 61% TS
Nuggets- 34/8/5 on a 66% TS
Warriors- 18/7/2 on a 37% TS
Grizzlies- 39/3/2 on a 61% TS
Heat- 31/9/3 on a 61% TS
Pelicans- 19/7/10 on a 46% TS
Sixers- 35/12/4 on a 73% TS
Suns- 25/5/2 on a 58% TS
Raps- 31/12/3 on a 59% TS

His four worst games have come against the Hawks, Warriors, Pelicans, and Thunder. Two really good teams, one meh, and one garbage. He’s lit up a majority of possible playoff opponents.

This is just in the moment, reactionary silliness.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I saw a handful of attempts last night that were within two feet of the basket that he’s been converting all season that rimmed out. I honestly don’t think that the Warriors did anything special or unusual to Tatum last night. He just had some tough luck, as did the entire team who missed a week’s worth of wide open 3s in one game.
These are the things that happen in the middle of road trips. It was unfortunate that last night was one of those games for him. How quickly we forget that Tatum is still the favorite for League MVP.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Against possible playoff teams so far this year

Hawks- 19/7/8 on a 46% TS
Nets- 29/11 on a 67% TS
Cavs- 29/9/5 on a 62% TS
Bulls- 30/10/6 on a 60% TS
Mavs- 37/13/5 on a 61% TS
Nuggets- 34/8/5 on a 66% TS
Warriors- 18/7/2 on a 37% TS
Grizzlies- 39/3/2 on a 61% TS
Heat- 31/9/3 on a 61% TS
Pelicans- 19/7/10 on a 46% TS
Sixers- 35/12/4 on a 73% TS
Suns- 25/5/2 on a 58% TS
Raps- 31/12/3 on a 59% TS

His four worst games have come against the Hawks, Warriors, Pelicans, and Thunder. Two really good teams, one meh, and one garbage. He’s lit up a majority of possible playoff opponents.

This is just in the moment, reactionary silliness.
Look, its not like this information is freely available or anything.

I vote we have a separate thread for Tatum's psychological state. Many here are ill qualified to discuss it for a variety of reasons but if some want to try, let them go down that rabbit hole of madness without dragging this thread down.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Against possible playoff teams so far this year

Hawks- 19/7/8 on a 46% TS
Nets- 29/11 on a 67% TS
Cavs- 29/9/5 on a 62% TS
Bulls- 30/10/6 on a 60% TS
Mavs- 37/13/5 on a 61% TS
Nuggets- 34/8/5 on a 66% TS
Warriors- 18/7/2 on a 37% TS
Grizzlies- 39/3/2 on a 61% TS
Heat- 31/9/3 on a 61% TS
Pelicans- 19/7/10 on a 46% TS
Sixers- 35/12/4 on a 73% TS
Suns- 25/5/2 on a 58% TS
Raps- 31/12/3 on a 59% TS

His four worst games have come against the Hawks, Warriors, Pelicans, and Thunder. Two really good teams, one meh, and one garbage. He’s lit up a majority of possible playoff opponents.

This is just in the moment, reactionary silliness.
The above case would be stronger... if you didn't ignore his worst game of the year.

December 2: Tatum shoots 5-18 against Miami, 14 points, 5 turnovers.
December 4: Yes he has 29/11 against Brooklyn, but also 9 turnovers. Nine.
December 10: Last night’s debacle against GS.

Three of last year’s 4 playoff opponents, all having a lot of experience against Tatum in meaningful games, each able to get the better of him if they set their mind to it.
 

RorschachsMask

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The above case would be stronger... if you didn't ignore his worst game of the year.

December 2: Tatum shoots 5-18 against Miami, 14 points, 5 turnovers.
December 4: Yes he has 29/11 against Brooklyn, but also 9 turnovers. Nine.
December 10: Last night’s debacle against GS.

Three of last year’s 4 playoff opponents, all having a lot of experience against Tatum in meaningful games, each able to get the better of him if they set their mind to it.
The same Nets he dominated in the playoffs last year? The same Heat team he won ECF MVP against? He destroyed the Heat twice, and had one terrible game, why does that one count more to you? Players have bad games lol, Steph himself went 3-17 the other night.

Do his bad games against Atlanta and OKC count for less? You’re being overtly reactionary because he had a brutal game against the team they lost to in the finals, it’s okay to admit it.
 

lexrageorge

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Larry Bird had a 9 turnover game in 1985, against the same Atlanta Hawks that the C's would later face in the playoffs. Random stuff happens.

As for Tatum, the reality is that the 29/11 and defense against KD more than made up for those 9 TO's.
 

Euclis20

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The above case would be stronger... if you didn't ignore his worst game of the year.

December 2: Tatum shoots 5-18 against Miami, 14 points, 5 turnovers.
December 4: Yes he has 29/11 against Brooklyn, but also 9 turnovers. Nine.
December 10: Last night’s debacle against GS.

Three of last year’s 4 playoff opponents, all having a lot of experience against Tatum in meaningful games, each able to get the better of him if they set their mind to it.
The Celtics are 3-2 against those 3 playoff opponents from last year, with Tatum averaging 27.8 ppg. Was it pretty? No, but it's perfectly fine to win 60% of your games against playoff opponents (Boston is currently 13-4 against teams in the top 10 in either conference, better than 75%), and while Tatum wasn't always the best player on the court, he was good enough for them to win more than they've lost.
 

lars10

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The Celtics are 3-2 against those 3 playoff opponents from last year, with Tatum averaging 27.8 ppg. Was it pretty? No, but it's perfectly fine to win 60% of your games against playoff opponents (Boston is currently 13-4 against teams in the top 10 in either conference, better than 75%), and while Tatum wasn't always the best player on the court, he was good enough for them to win more than they've lost.
How many of those games have Al and Rob been out for as well?
 

Jimbodandy

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As good as Tatum has been this year, there's a clear gameplan against him now, and teams that prep keep going to it: hope he doesn't heat up from 3, then let him drive and bring lots of late help at the rim.

He handles doubles fine, but he's atrocious against late help, and forces way too many bad shots. He doesn't seem to know where the passes are to keep the offensive advantage in those spots.

It's good it's happened to him multiple times now this early, but it's tough to fix in the regular season, because most opponents aren't cohesive enough to install that gameplan on the fly. Miami and GSW are, but the Cs only get one more crack at each of them this year.
I think that your observation is correct. They're contesting the 3 and the rim period.

Tatum seems to have been working more on his floater game, and more of that will absolutely help. 5-10 foot floaters for a guy with his skill are good shots. And hitting them will force some defenders away from defending the hole only.