Jayson Tatum Needs His Own Thread

HomeRunBaker

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It's probably unfair of me to say he's the same too, because he is shooting the ball more and scoring more. Rates will tell you he's just getting more opportunities, and doing about the same, but we all know it isn't that simple. Doing the same is a hard thing to do with more chances.
In addition to this it is also hard for a young player to replicate their early success in seasons two as opposing coaching and defenses now have a line on him. Some call it a "sophomore slump" but it is much more than that. Sure, some players fall victim to entitlement but it's usually a combination of defenses adjusting as well.
 

DrewDawg

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I think that's lying with statistics. His rebounding rate went from 9.0% to 10.8%, his assists % from 8.3 to 9.5. I wouldn't really call those gains, I'd call it variance. His TO% is down 1% and his usage is up 2.5%, so that might be a thing.
I mean, maybe. But most of the variance is at least in the right direction, so that's something.
 

lovegtm

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He's up to 40% 3PT now on 50% more attempts/game (4.5). Rebounding is up a lot, which is noticeable in-game. He's down a bit from 2 on more attempts, but that will get better once he completes the process of excising bad long 2s.

In short, despite all the hand-wringing, he's the same player he was last year, on higher usage and with a tougher role. He's also 20 (!!) with a lot of obvious ways to improve dramatically on offense in ways that young players tend to improve (more decisiveness, more 3s, improved PnR decision-making, etc). On defense, RPM likes him, and he's noticeably harder to push around when he gets switched onto 4s.
 

bosox79

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Since 11/1: 18 games, .487/.476/.822, 16.4 points, 5.7 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 1.2 steals.

For the season he is now shooting .461/.429/.844. Last year he shot .475/.434/.826.

One interesting note, he's taking more FGA at 10-<3 last year at a much worse percentage. On the flip side, he's taking more shots from 3-10ft and has saw his percentage climb from .258 last year to .444 this year. How did Jayson Tatum manage to shoot .258 from 3-10?
 

lovegtm

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Those shots are usually contested and he wasn't strong enough to finish through contact AND he wasn't getting the calls?
Those shots are contested, but usually they don't have the contact that shots at the rim do. I think it's more that he worked a lot on his in-between/floater game. I remember when he broke out a floater last year in the playoffs, we were all tantalized since it was new for him. Now he busts it out regularly, and is a lot more comfortable with it.
 

Jimbodandy

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The last one in the second video was my favourite highlight from the game, even including TL ones.

Tatum draws AD out to the arc, drives on him, AD commits to stopping the drive at the rim, Tatum pulls up from 12 and buries it. Perfect use of the unpopular midrange jumper. AD had no chance. Anthony Davis had no chance.

Said twice for emphasis.
 

lovegtm

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The last one in the second video was my favourite highlight from the game, even including TL ones.

Tatum draws AD out to the arc, drives on him, AD commits to stopping the drive at the rim, Tatum pulls up from 12 and buries it. Perfect use of the unpopular midrange jumper. AD had no chance. Anthony Davis had no chance.

Said twice for emphasis.
This may be too anecdotal, but doesn't it look like Tatum is better balanced when he fades away from ~12 ft than when he steps into 18 footers?
 

Jimbodandy

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This may be too anecdotal, but doesn't it look like Tatum is better balanced when he fades away from ~12 ft than when he steps into 18 footers?
I have noticed some variability as well. Could be confused eyeballs for sure, but my uninformed guess is that he practices the turnarounds and other fades from specific parts of the floor and has more muscle memory there.
 

lovegtm

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I have noticed some variability as well. Could be confused eyeballs for sure, but my uninformed guess is that he practices the turnarounds and other fades from specific parts of the floor and has more muscle memory there.
Right, the motion of falling back from short range also seems to get him squared and lined up well.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Right, the motion of falling back from short range also seems to get him squared and lined up well.
It reminds me of Paul Pierce in some ways. It’s like that with many players who have signature moves that appear so natural so that what is traditionally considered “a clean look” isn’t necessarily the highest pct shot for that particular player. Think Jabbar, Hakeem, McHale, Pierce, KG and the like.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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It reminds me of Paul Pierce in some ways. It’s like that with many players who have signature moves that appear so natural so that what is traditionally considered “a clean look” isn’t necessarily the highest pct shot for that particular player. Think Jabbar, Hakeem, McHale, Pierce, KG and the like.
Don’t mean to interject with a meaningless post but I just had a hearty chuckle on the bus home thinking about Paul Pierce’s elbow jumper and herky-jerky foul-drawing pump fake to draw free throws as WWF-style finishers and couldn’t help myself, given how mundane those particular moves were. Hardly a Dream Shake, for example.
 

lovegtm

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It reminds me of Paul Pierce in some ways. It’s like that with many players who have signature moves that appear so natural so that what is traditionally considered “a clean look” isn’t necessarily the highest pct shot for that particular player. Think Jabbar, Hakeem, McHale, Pierce, KG and the like.
Random musing: I wonder what % Hakeem shot on Dream Shakes. He was my favorite player growing up, but whenever I watch the shot in highlights now it feels like it just can't be high percentage.
 

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Random musing: I wonder what % Hakeem shot on Dream Shakes. He was my favorite player growing up, but whenever I watch the shot in highlights now it feels like it just can't be high percentage.
gtm, did you see Hakeem his freshman year in college? You can't even believe how raw he was. Makes TL look like a seasoned vet. What an amazing athlete.
 

Van Everyman

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Between this comment, the Celtics 18-19 thread and all the Pats handwringing, I’m beginning to think that all the winning in this town has turned fans into entitled douches.
 

cecil c

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What? Are you a Celtics fan? Is this satire?
Yes. And know mediocrity well as the '70s celtics I grew up with during the Dave Cowens years. Though my favorite players to watch were Jojo White during Cowens tenure and Rondo during Pierce's tenure. Also enjoyed watching Cedric play - although Pierce was a better player, Pierce 'appeared' to be an egomaniac, ball hog and dirty player and not a great fit for what the Celtics are all about. ymmv. I see Tatum - with the possibility of being a Dr. J/Havelcekish mixture.
 

cecil c

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Between this comment, the Celtics 18-19 thread and all the Pats handwringing, I’m beginning to think that all the winning in this town has turned fans into entitled douches.

nevermind.
 
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slamminsammya

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What? Are you a Celtics fan? Is this satire?
Yes. And know mediocrity well as the '70s celtics I grew up with during the Dave Cowens years. Though my favorite players to watch were Jojo White during Cowens tenure and Rondo during Pierce's tenure. Also enjoyed watching Cedric play - although Pierce was a better player, Pierce 'appeared' to be an egomaniac, ball hog and dirty player and not a great fit for what the Celtics are all about. ymmv. I see Tatum - with the possibility of being a Dr. J/Havelcekish mixture.
Interesting pop in to the Tatum thread to drop a "Pierce wasnt that good" take.

If you think he should aim higher than Paul Pierce I don't know what to tell you. Pierce is an all time Celtic and probably a hall of famer.
 

cecil c

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I think that Tatum is too small to be another Pierce on the team. And yes, Pierce was an all-star and prevented the Celtics from performing even worse than they did. I do think that Dr. J-like is in a higher tier than Pierce.
 

cecil c

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Are you implying that Pierce added zero wins to those teams and simply kept mediocre teams from being even worse?

Absolutely not. Pierce was a fierce player and was typically fun to root for. I just think that Jason has more finesse than Paul and in today's game has the ability to surpass the level of play that PP put on display. Hope that he takes it to the next level.
 

Spelunker

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Are you implying that Pierce added zero wins to those teams and simply kept mediocre teams from being even worse?

Absolutely not. Pierce was a fierce player and was typically fun to root for. I just think that Jason has more finesse than Paul and in today's game has the ability to surpass the level of play that PP put on display. Hope that he takes it to the next level.
This totally sounds like you were rooting for Pierce:

"Pierce 'appeared' to be an egomaniac, ball hog and dirty player and not a great fit for what the Celtics are all about. ymm"
 

lovegtm

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It was pretty obvious during this Hornets game that a) a lot of the closed-door criticism was directed at Tatum & b) he took it to heart.

That's the player I thought he'd be this year. Get to the rim, take more contested 3s, and some minor play-making progression.

Fuck Kobe.
 

amarshal2

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It was pretty obvious during this Hornets game that a) a lot of the closed-door criticism was directed at Tatum & b) he took it to heart.

That's the player I thought he'd be this year. Get to the rim, take more contested 3s, and some minor play-making progression.

Fuck Kobe.
Exactly. While everyone made an effort to go to the rim the change in play was most noticeable with Tatum.
 

HomeRunBaker

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What? Are you a Celtics fan? Is this satire?
Yes. And know mediocrity well as the '70s celtics I grew up with during the Dave Cowens years. Though my favorite players to watch were Jojo White during Cowens tenure and Rondo during Pierce's tenure. Also enjoyed watching Cedric play - although Pierce was a better player, Pierce 'appeared' to be an egomaniac, ball hog and dirty player and not a great fit for what the Celtics are all about. ymmv. I see Tatum - with the possibility of being a Dr. J/Havelcekish mixture.
- I'm not sure what an "egomaniac" has to do with anything as that is actually a POSITIVE character trait for a lead NBA player. LeBron, Jordan, Bird, Curry, etc etc. All of the great ones have enormous egos.....it is necessary to take ones game to that level.

- Pierce the "ball hog" was a Top 5-6 assist guy at the small forward position year-in and year-out along with LeBron, McGrady, Joe Johnson, and Turkoglu. Again, no idea what definition you are using to characterize Pierce as a "ball hog."

- Yeah, I'll put your "dirty player" claim right up there with him being an egomaniac and a ball hog.

- What are the Celtics all about? I assume you mean championships. Pierce was the leader of Doc's "sacrifice individual achievements for the betterment of the team" Ubuntu mantra which led us TO a championship. What isn't Pierce all about again?



I've seen some horrific posts around here.....hell I've even made some horrific posts around here. This one is on the short list for most horrific post of 2018. Nothing personal, only one posters opinion on one horrific post.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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It was pretty obvious during this Hornets game that a) a lot of the closed-door criticism was directed at Tatum & b) he took it to heart.

That's the player I thought he'd be this year. Get to the rim, take more contested 3s, and some minor play-making progression.

Fuck Kobe.
It asn't a great first half for Tatum, TBH. He made a few poor decisions and spent a long stretch on the bench in the second quarter. Looked much better in the third.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Just to drive home the damage Kobe did:

Tweet shows the lowest FG percentage shooters from each zone on the floor. Tatum is the worst shooter in the NBA with over 50 attempts from the left elbow at 22 percent.
 

chilidawg

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Just to drive home the damage Kobe did:

Tweet shows the lowest FG percentage shooters from each zone on the floor. Tatum is the worst shooter in the NBA with over 50 attempts from the left elbow at 22 percent.
Some pretty good players on that list.
 

bosox79

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The knock on Tatum out of college was he was a mid range jump shooter. It's more fun to blame Kobe though.
 

TripleOT

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I just took a look at Tatum's shot chart. To the right of the FT line mid-range he's a disaster. To the left, he's money. Overall he's at 36.3% from 16 foot to the arc this season, and 42.9% last. I also felt that Kobe polluted his game, but the volume from there is the same as last year, 2.4 shots a game. The biggest difference is 57% of his makes from there were assisted last season, and only 44% this year. Overall, only 55.8% of his makes are assisted this season, to 66% his rookie year. The downtick in accuracy can be attributed to him trying to do more off the dribble than out of passes, and I attribute some of that to Kobe.

On the bright side, JT was actually more accurate shooting the ball in the playoffs, even though only 51% of is buckets were assisted. Tatum has the tools to score efficiency on his own, although that 16 footer from the right is not a smart shot.
 

bosox79

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I just took a look at Tatum's shot chart. To the right of the FT line mid-range he's a disaster. To the left, he's money. Overall he's at 36.3% from 16 foot to the arc this season, and 42.9% last. I also felt that Kobe polluted his game, but the volume from there is the same as last year, 2.4 shots a game. The biggest difference is 57% of his makes from there were assisted last season, and only 44% this year. Overall, only 55.8% of his makes are assisted this season, to 66% his rookie year. The downtick in accuracy can be attributed to him trying to do more off the dribble than out of passes, and I attribute some of that to Kobe.

On the bright side, JT was actually more accurate shooting the ball in the playoffs, even though only 51% of is buckets were assisted. Tatum has the tools to score efficiency on his own, although that 16 footer from the right is not a smart shot.
Don't we want him creating his own offense?
 

lovegtm

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Don't we want him creating his own offense?
I cringe when he takes those, but it also would unlock a ton of his game if he were a threat to make that shot consistently. I'm sort of kind of maybe OK with him shooting them, if only to get more game reps in that range.
 

TripleOT

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Don't we want him creating his own offense?
He should be creating his own offense when he's the lead dog with the second unit, preferably by driving to the paint and either finishing or kicking the ball out for an open three. It doesn't help the team if he Kobe-s his way into a contested 18 footer after pounding the ball for ten seconds. With a team this talented, any iso dribbling should be used to get into the paint and make something happen.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I just took a look at Tatum's shot chart. To the right of the FT line mid-range he's a disaster. To the left, he's money. Overall he's at 36.3% from 16 foot to the arc this season, and 42.9% last. I also felt that Kobe polluted his game, but the volume from there is the same as last year, 2.4 shots a game. The biggest difference is 57% of his makes from there were assisted last season, and only 44% this year. Overall, only 55.8% of his makes are assisted this season, to 66% his rookie year. The downtick in accuracy can be attributed to him trying to do more off the dribble than out of passes, and I attribute some of that to Kobe.
Well, that explains the drop in percentage.

I think that his mid-range fadeaway/turnaround has been a crutch for him. It's a shot he can get any time he wants it, and he knows that. And there are certain situations where it is a good shot (eg, late in clock, Tatum's on the floor without guys who can create, etc). Because's confident that he can get that shot, and it is legitimately valuable sometimes, so he goes to it too often. As a result, he hasn't developed (or hasn't developed confidence in) other, better, moves.

Sometimes I think he should watch a lot of McHale video. When Kevin first came up he, too, took a lot of fadeways, it was only later that he put together his arsenal of insanely effective post moves. And his fadeaway remained one of those moves, but not really what he did most often or what he is really known for. The analogy only goes so far, Tatum not being a big, but I can't help but think there is stuff he could learn there.

BTW, did anyone see the (sort of) give and go he worked with Al Horford in the first quarter last night? Tatum makes an entry pass to Al to the mid post and is sort of just watching Al with the ball. Al, holding the ball, makes a gesture at Tatum that basically says "WTF are you waiting for?", Tatum cuts, Al gives it back, and there is help underneath (that maybe wouldn't have been there had Tatum just passed it and cut) but he scores anyway. No one commented on it, but it was hilarious.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Tatum had a great game, going for 20 and 10 on 7-15 shooting along with 2 blocks and 2 steals.

But at least 6 of his misses were on his trademark midrange jumpers (of which he only hit 1 or 2), while he also hit his only open 3 and scored almost every time he attacked the basket.
 

lovegtm

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Tatum had a great game, going for 20 and 10 on 7-15 shooting along with 2 blocks and 2 steals.

But at least 6 of his misses were on his trademark midrange jumpers (of which he only hit 1 or 2), while he also hit his only open 3 and scored almost every time he attacked the basket.
His midrange jumper just looks bad a lot of the time. Like really bricky misses. It's honestly a bit weird how bad it looks, relative to the midranger of Jaylen, for example.
 

chilidawg

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His midrange jumper just looks bad a lot of the time. Like really bricky misses. It's honestly a bit weird how bad it looks, relative to the midranger of Jaylen, for example.
Good point. It seems like Jaylen gets more separation and gets a better look. My memory says that Jaylen shoots the mid range more off the bounce, attacks the paint and then pulls up when the defense cuts him off. Tatum is more in the post, and then fades away, easier to defend. Brown's athleticism gets him more space as well.
 

NomarsFool

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It asn't a great first half for Tatum, TBH. He made a few poor decisions and spent a long stretch on the bench in the second quarter. Looked much better in the third.
I'm with you. I actually wasn't that encouraged with his play in the first half, but he ended up with a good line for the night.
 

DrewDawg

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I'm with you. I actually wasn't that encouraged with his play in the first half, but he ended up with a good line for the night.
You'd think Danny would queue up a video titles "Here's what happens when you penetrate and here's what happens when you take step back fall-away twos from 19 feet."