Jayson Tatum Needs His Own Thread

benhogan

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When teams start doubling him 30 feet from the hoop, that’s when you go from “very very good young guy” to “can build an elite offense with him, a secondary playmaker, and 3 JAGs.”
Kemba will make the opponent pay BIG TIME when they double Tatum 30ft away from the hoop. KW must be licking his chops watching this evolve over the last month.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Tatum: best (and least annoying) Duke player in NBA history? Maybe #2 behind Grant Hill for like the next five seconds?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Kemba will make the opponent pay BIG TIME when they double Tatum 30ft away from the hoop. KW must be licking his chops watching this evolve over the last month.
Kemba has never played with anyone close to the offensive force as Tatum. Not in Charlotte and not at UConn. You can actually make an argument that the best player he's ever had was a 30-year old Al Jefferson. Yikes!
 

HomeRunBaker

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Tatum: best (and least annoying) Duke player in NBA history? Maybe #2 behind Grant Hill for like the next five seconds?
Well there's this guy down in New Orleans who will quickly join the conversation too but that's pretty much the list. There has been a lot of good players come out of Duke but very few great players. Aside from the ones just mentioned you're next tier is Kyrie, Boozer, Ingram, Brand and Jeff Mullins back in the day......then you get into the Redicks, Dengs, Gminski's, etc etc.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Yeah, Brand was good and not particularly annoying. Though like Boozer, he played the "traditional 20-10 PF" role that became quasi-obsolete during his career.

I wanted Dunleavy, Jr. to be everything Tatum is...
 

nighthob

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At the rate at which Jayson is burning and pillaging the NBA, they’d better make room on that All NBA first team.
 

benhogan

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Kemba has never played with anyone close to the offensive force as Tatum. Not in Charlotte and not at UConn. You can actually make an argument that the best player he's ever had was a 30-year old Al Jefferson. Yikes!
Kemba to aid at the top when JT gets doubled with Brown in the corner, spacing the floor, waiting to launch an open 3. Theis in the dunkers' spot and Hayward in the other corner. This offense is going to be tough to stop.
 

TripleOT

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JT's February Splits 30.5 ppg on 50/51/81% shooting, 7.5 rebounds, 3 assists. He made the most threes in February in the entire league.

Those are 21 year old Durant numbers, with better three point shooting, and a worst percentage at the line. JT is getting 7 FTs a game in the month.
 

benhogan

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Tatum: best (and least annoying) Duke player in NBA history? Maybe #2 behind Grant Hill for like the next five seconds?
Since he didn't win a championship there for his 1 season its like he never played for them.

Jayson went to HS with Brad Beal in St Louis and attended Pure Sweat Academy as far as I'm concerned.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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He’s just exploded to a completely different level over the last two months. He’s so fun to watch. He’s pretty much doing anything he wants when he isn’t double teamed.
 

lovegtm

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Saw this during the game, and then Carlin posted it on Twitter:

View: https://twitter.com/maxacarlin/status/1232903656841895937?s=20


This is really encouraging: Tatum doesn't make the simple read to Grant; he's one beat ahead and hits the next guy. His height is really going to make him a force when he inevitably gets trapped. His basketball mind is also too good to not get to average/solid playmaker level by next year, which would make him really freaking good.
 

DJnVa

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Kemba will make the opponent pay BIG TIME when they double Tatum 30ft away from the hoop. KW must be licking his chops watching this evolve over the last month.
Yeah, it's gonna be something if they double him and he swings it to Kemba or Gordon, with Jaylen waiting in the wings. If they play smart then someone that can shoot the rock is going to get open looks.
 

HomeRunBaker

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JT's February Splits 30.5 ppg on 50/51/81% shooting, 7.5 rebounds, 3 assists. He made the most threes in February in the entire league.

Those are 21 year old Durant numbers, with better three point shooting, and a worst percentage at the line. JT is getting 7 FTs a game in the month.
The best part is that there is still more upside as his physical development increases. How close is he to Paul Pierce’s peak? Has he reached it? Compared to players of their era, Pierce was voted 2nd Team All-League once and 3rd Team on three occasions........Tatum will sure be named to the 3rd Team this summer with a decent chance at making 2nd Team at age 22.

If Giannis leaves for the WC this summer we have to be the favorites to come out of the EC next year.
 

NomarsFool

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With regards to the All-NBA team, what are the implications for Tatum's contract? Specifically, if he gets All-NBA this year - I assume it increases the contract extension he can sign this summer? If he doesn't win this year, but he wins NEXT year - it doesn't have the same contract implications, does it?
 

RorschachsMask

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With regards to the All-NBA team, what are the implications for Tatum's contract? Specifically, if he gets All-NBA this year - I assume it increases the contract extension he can sign this summer? If he doesn't win this year, but he wins NEXT year - it doesn't have the same contract implications, does it?
If he makes it this year, he will be eligible for a 30% max instead of 25%.

And the contract will still be a bargain.
 

RedOctober3829

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Kemba has never played with anyone close to the offensive force as Tatum. Not in Charlotte and not at UConn. You can actually make an argument that the best player he's ever had was a 30-year old Al Jefferson. Yikes!
Don't disrespect Jamal Coombs-McDaniel or Niels Giffey like this! Seriously though, the best player Kemba may have played with was Jeremy Lamb at UConn.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Don't disrespect Jamal Coombs-McDaniel or Niels Giffey like this! Seriously though, the best player Kemba may have played with was Jeremy Lamb at UConn.
That was even before he turned into a sheep, too: I think it was only Lamb’s freshman year but I could be wrong.
 

pjheff

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Don't disrespect Jamal Coombs-McDaniel or Niels Giffey like this! Seriously though, the best player Kemba may have played with was Jeremy Lamb at UConn.
How many players on the current Celtics roster are better than the best player Kemba played with previously?
 

benhogan

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If Giannis leaves for the WC this summer we have to be the favorites to come out of the EC next year.
Giannis and Bucks will win it this year with health.

By April 2021, Tatum and Brown will be able to slow Giannis down enough. It will be a coin toss.

By April 2022 and beyond, the Celtics will be prohibitive favorites.

The leap is real, just need those two to continue to fill out the frame w/muscle
 

Spelunker

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The best part is that there is still more upside as his physical development increases. How close is he to Paul Pierce’s peak? Has he reached it? Compared to players of their era, Pierce was voted 2nd Team All-League once and 3rd Team on three occasions........Tatum will sure be named to the 3rd Team this summer with a decent chance at making 2nd Team at age 22.

If Giannis leaves for the WC this summer we have to be the favorites to come out of the EC next year.
I'm 42, so I love Pierce as the best Celtic of my adult lifetime. The initial swagger, the Shaq elevation, the response to the stabbing- still the most baller thing I've seen a pro athlete do- the title. All of it. My adult ideal of a Celtic.

If Tatum isn't better* I'll eat my hat. I'll be shocked. I haven't seen something like him since Bird.

(*Presuming we keep him).
 

lovegtm

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Lowe with some Tatum-jizz:

It’s nice he recognizes the other parts of his game beyond the iso 3. Didn’t realize Tatum is already taking 4.4 of those a game this year. Is there any reason that number can’t/shouldn’t be 10/game?
 

benhogan

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It’s nice he recognizes the other parts of his game beyond the iso 3. Didn’t realize Tatum is already taking 4.4 of those a game this year. Is there any reason that number can’t/shouldn’t be 10/game?
I imagine it will slow down with the increase in double teams, thus I'd expect assists to inch higher before ISO 3s. Plus they need to focus on moving the ball (next right play) and spreading the FGAs to very efficient shooters like JB, Kemba & Gordon.

BUT that's an insane stat from Goldsberry and bodes well for the playoffs/halfcourt offense/high leverage/end of game situations
 

lovegtm

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I imagine it will slow down with the increase in double teams, thus I'd expect assists to inch higher before ISO 3s. Plus they need to focus on moving the ball (next right play) and spreading the FGAs to very efficient shooters like JB, Kemba & Gordon.

BUT that's an insane stat from Goldsberry and bodes well for the playoffs/halfcourt offense/high leverage/end of game situations
I don't think the double teams will be a consistent thing. If teams do it a lot, Tatum will quickly get good at handling it (he's improved a ton already), and they won't want to play 4 on 3 over and over.

We already saw this play out with Harden: teams initially tried it this year, then realized it was a dead end in high doses, and now he's averaging about 12 attempts/36 from 3.

Luka is averaging 9/game and he's not as dangerous from there as Tatum. I really think Tatum needs to up the volume of this shot in order to really stress defenses into harder choices.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Imagine how good that video would be if we didn't have to see those city jerseys on him. Please, for the love of everything Celtics, can they get rid of those?

Please?
 

lovegtm

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People will probably focus on the lower efficiency, but this Rockets game had some great stuff for Tatum. It was the first game I really saw him trying to consistently exploit the increased attention to his stepback to get to the rim in iso, rather than on the PnR (which isn't an option against HOU really).

There will be growing pains once again, but his track record of progressively mastering new scenarios is strong. This is a really important next phase.
 

lovegtm

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...
I would suggest that a lot of Tatum's leap has been the unselfish playmaking of Hayward and Smarf.
...
Quoting from the gamethread since those die out after the game...

I think Hayward and Smarf are very good players who take undeserved flack. However, most of Tatum's leap has been from him improving in the PnR and working the stepback 3 into his game. It's him learning to be the primary engine of an offense. He'd actually probably look better if surrounded by players who played more to his strengths (he really benefits from Kemba's gravity), and less by playmaker types like Hayward and Smart.

This is a pretty interesting roster composition issue that the Celtics will have to deal with going forward, and they won't do it until they're really certain that Tatum is the real deal. But when they do decide that, there are a lot of optimizations you can make. Brown fits into this quite well (fortunately), since he can screen, shoot, play physical defense, and looks good when he gets the ball in advantage scenarios.
 

lovegtm

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Here's an example (linked below) of Tatum starting to leverage the power of his stepback. He gives Harden the headfake that looks like he's doing that stepback to his left, which puts Harden into matador mode, completely off balance.

Then he engages Tucker and makes the right pass to Theis (Covington and Gordon were sticking to the corner shooters, which shows the benefit of a spaced-out floor for Tatum 2.0).

It's heresy right now to suggest that Tatum could be as good as Luka offensively, but I think they'll actually have similar games when Tatum comes out of the lab this coming fall, with Luka's offensive gap narrowed a decent bit. The difference will be that Luka is a way better passer, but Tatum is a better shooter because of how cleanly he can get his shot off in iso, and also is starting to draw more and more fouls.

 

Eddie Jurak

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It's a (very) small thing, but I don't recall seeing a player throw a better intentional missed free throw than what Tatum did at the end of regulation.
 

benhogan

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This is a pretty interesting roster composition issue that the Celtics will have to deal with going forward, and they won't do it until they're really certain that Tatum is the real deal. But when they do decide that, there are a lot of optimizations you can make. Brown fits into this quite well (fortunately), since he can screen, shoot, play physical defense, and looks good when he gets the ball in advantage scenarios.
Agreed on Brown's fit with Tatum. Something nice to look forward to is JB's exceptional 3pt shooting from both corners. Combine that with Tatum's ISO playmaking at the top, step-back 3, snake screens from Theis, Tatum's hard/fast drives to the rim AND then the eventual Tatum drive kick out to Brown in the corner for the paint touch/step in 3 from Jaylen.

The halfcourt is evolving very quickly in front of us, but its Tatum's stepback 3 that makes the biggest difference here
 

lovegtm

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Agreed on Brown's fit with Tatum. Something nice to look forward to is JB's exceptional 3pt shooting from both corners. Combine that with Tatum's ISO playmaking at the top, step-back 3, snake screens from Theis, Tatum's hard/fast drives to the rim AND then the eventual Tatum drive kick out to Brown in the corner for the paint touch/step in 3 from Jaylen.

The halfcourt is evolving very quickly in front of us, but its Tatum's stepback 3 that makes the biggest difference here
If you want to see what the future looks like (in 2-4 years), watch a Luka breakdown on Youtube. There will be differences: Tatum won't be as good at midrange I think, and he won't have to be; Tatum projects as a better 3-point volume guy because of that insanely high release; Luka is a passing savant; Tatum is more explosive.

The other comp that's not as direct a mapping, but that might be more relevant, is Kawhi. Their offensive games are fairly different, but they're both able to generate a ton of value in halfcourt iso despite being pretty limited passers, just because they're so dangerous to just score the ball.
 

benhogan

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If you want to see what the future looks like (in 2-4 years), watch a Luka breakdown on Youtube. There will be differences: Tatum won't be as good at midrange I think, and he won't have to be; Tatum projects as a better 3-point volume guy because of that insanely high release; Luka is a passing savant; Tatum is more explosive.

The other comp that's not as direct a mapping, but that might be more relevant, is Kawhi. Their offensive games are fairly different, but they're both able to generate a ton of value in halfcourt iso despite being pretty limited passers, just because they're so dangerous to just score the ball.
Agreed, while different, future Tatum can be as lethal as halfcourt Luka in a few seasons.
1. Tatum's shot mechanics/feel on the step back 3s
2. Tatum's unique high release on 3s
3. Tatum's height/arm length around the rim
4. Tatum's future strength/physical growth
5. NBA refs giving JT star treatment/whistle more often on drives
6. Tatum's offseason work ethic/private coaching. Any weakness (handle? passing?) will be broken down, studied in the Summer, and worked on. JT is a high-end learning machine that appears to enjoy the process of improving.
 

Jimbodandy

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6. Tatum's offseason work ethic/private coaching. Any weakness (handle? passing?) will be broken down, studied in the Summer, and worked on. JT is a high-end learning machine that appears to enjoy the process of improving.
Ainge seems to be targeting guys with that mindset. Among talented 19yo guys, the driven and coachable can be dreamed upon. Smart and Brown have both progressed consistently since hitting the league. Obviously Tatum. This shit matters.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Quoting from the gamethread since those die out after the game...

I think Hayward and Smarf are very good players who take undeserved flack. However, most of Tatum's leap has been from him improving in the PnR and working the stepback 3 into his game. It's him learning to be the primary engine of an offense. He'd actually probably look better if surrounded by players who played more to his strengths (he really benefits from Kemba's gravity), and less by playmaker types like Hayward and Smart.

This is a pretty interesting roster composition issue that the Celtics will have to deal with going forward, and they won't do it until they're really certain that Tatum is the real deal. But when they do decide that, there are a lot of optimizations you can make. Brown fits into this quite well (fortunately), since he can screen, shoot, play physical defense, and looks good when he gets the ball in advantage scenarios.
We can agree to disagree and in my haste I omitted using the words "helped by" in front of "the unselfish playmaking".

Tatum is already a very good two way player who also handles the ball a lot. He needs high IQ players around him who can set him up, space the floor and also give him a break during tough match ups.

Walker fits this description as well but I wonder if Tatum benefitted from his absence these past few weeks. It will be a small sample size but I am curious what the on/off numbers look like between Tatum and Kemba when the latter returns (before is not relevant to this discussion for my purposes).

For February though, the Cs most efficient regular three man lineup was Tatum, Smarf, Hayward. Interestingly enough, the three man of those guys vs a rotation that uses Walker in lieu of Marcus has almost the exact same differential.
 

Sam Ray Not

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"Junior" is kind of an unfair category for Tatum, too, since he's only 21 (a ripe old 22 tomorrow), where some other guys on that list are as old as 26-27 (Damion Lee and Alfonzo McKinnie, e.g.)

Meanwhile: Dillon Brooks, woof!