Jayson Tatum Needs His Own Thread

Jed Zeppelin

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He may have some moves reminiscent of a Kobe type player but he could only dream of having Kobe’s first step, which is what allowed him much more space on his shooting hand than Tatum is able to get when he slows down to square up a defender. If he doesn’t take a shot or make a strong move within a beat of catching the pass, it’s almost guaranteed to be a bad shot, which is a really bad look.
 

TripleOT

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The Rockets took 93 shots in their game three win against the Warriors. In 53 minutes, they took only two non-threes or non-paint shots. Tatum needs to learn from the Rockets.
 

amarshal2

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It's an off-season/Drew Hanlan puff piece on the surface, but a closer look has me excited about what Hanlan has Tatum working on.
Paywall...sorry

Max gives you the gist and sums up what I was thinking nicely (youre going to want to click for teh article screen shots):
https://twitter.com/maxacarlin/status/1154123350974881792?s=20
This is exactly what he should be doing. Very encouraging
If you had asked me for a list of things Tatum should be working on it would have been:
-Getting downhill
-Finishing through contact
-Movement shooting
-Foul-drawing

He's even pointing out the backwards momentum tendencies on pull-ups. He understands Tatum perfectly
 

lovegtm

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Thanks! Some more quotes that make me feel good:
Tatum took 4.6 3-pointers per game, and Hanlen believes that number should be closer to 8.

There were times Tatum was noticeably less comfortable beyond the arc, opting to dribble inside into a more challenging, midrange offering. Hanlen said that was partly because when Tatum was at full speed, or moving near the 3-point line at awkward angles, he was not always able to instantly re-center for sidestep, step-back or off-the-dribble 3-pointers. So they are working on all of those things now.

“We’ve been doing a lot where he’s just not allowed to shoot midrange shots,” Hanlen said. “So it forces him to do it, and he’s starting to kind of realize when he settles for the jump shot and when he should get downhill. He’s seen it on film and now we’re forcing him to do it by taking away the midrange, and then it’s just about making the right decision. Sometimes the midrange is the best shot, sometimes the three is the best shot, and sometimes the rim. It’s about putting it all together.”
 

DrewDawg

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Yes please.

They want him to get to the free throw line more, they want him to take fewer midrange shots, and they want him to take more 3-pointers, even in frenetic settings.
 

NomarsFool

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"Sometimes the midrange is the best shot, sometimes the three is the best shot, and sometimes the rim. It’s about putting it all together"

Well, two out of three ain't bad :)
 

DrewDawg

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"Sometimes the midrange is the best shot, sometimes the three is the best shot, and sometimes the rim. It’s about putting it all together"

Well, two out of three ain't bad :)
As long as he understands it's best around 10% of the time and not like 50% then we're good.
 

Jimbodandy

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As long as he understands it's best around 10% of the time and not like 50% then we're good.
Exactly. It shouldn't be a benchable offense if you take a midrange or two, especially if it's on the lower end of midrange, like 12 feet. But they need to get him to minimize it.
 

lovegtm

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Exactly. It shouldn't be a benchable offense if you take a midrange or two, especially if it's on the lower end of midrange, like 12 feet. But they need to get him to minimize it.
Hanlen got at the heart of the problem in that article: he was taking long 2s because he wasn’t comfortable with his 3pt footwork, or his ability to get to the rim without getting stripped.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I’m ok with young players working on their midrange in game situations if practice suggests they can do it, because it is a valuable thing to have late clock, and it’s hard to implement things without being comfortable with them in game. The problem is if they’re using it to avoid trickier spots, which it seems Tatum was.
 

nighthob

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Hanlen got at the heart of the problem in that article: he was taking long 2s because he wasn’t comfortable with his 3pt footwork, or his ability to get to the rim without getting stripped.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I’m ok with young players working on their midrange in game situations if practice suggests they can do it, because it is a valuable thing to have late clock, and it’s hard to implement things without being comfortable with them in game. The problem is if they’re using it to avoid trickier spots, which it seems Tatum was.
I mentioned this a couple of months ago, teams last year focused on running Tatum off the line and he clearly wasn’t comfortable shooting threes off the dribble. So he tended to shoot them from where he was comfortable, which was a bad choice. If Hanlen gets him to the point where he can shoot threes off the dribble he’s going to enter the all star phase of his career.

After that the next phase comes when he reaches the 230-240lb phase of his career, when he’s big enough to effectively finish through contact. Then he hits the all NBA phase.
 

lovegtm

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Hanlen got at the heart of the problem in that article: he was taking long 2s because he wasn’t comfortable with his 3pt footwork, or his ability to get to the rim without getting stripped.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I’m ok with young players working on their midrange in game situations if practice suggests they can do it, because it is a valuable thing to have late clock, and it’s hard to implement things without being comfortable with them in game. The problem is if they’re using it to avoid trickier spots, which it seems Tatum was.
His makes sense, but didn’t we see video on him working with Kobe on how to get that midrange 2 on purpose, as in, as the ultimate goal?

Obviously, we’d want him to be good at the shots he gets, but it seemed like an odd choice to emphasize, and people mentioned it at the time. Like, in terms of triage for limited time in practice, it sounds like it would have been better to work on the stuff he’s working on now.
 

DrewDawg

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Kobe wasn't a good 3pt shooter AND the league was in the midst of the change to shooting a lot more threes as his career wound down, so it's not surprising he wasn't the best teacher in that aspect.
 

benhogan

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I mentioned this a couple of months ago, teams last year focused on running Tatum off the line and he clearly wasn’t comfortable shooting threes off the dribble. So he tended to shoot them from where he was comfortable, which was a bad choice. If Hanlen gets him to the point where he can shoot threes off the dribble he’s going to enter the all star phase of his career.

After that the next phase comes when he reaches the 230-240lb phase of his career, when he’s big enough to effectively finish through contact. Then he hits the all NBA phase.
bingo, you nailed it. There was nothing smart about shooting those mid-range two's. Too many of them were challenged and early in the clock, or late in the clock after pounding the ball going ISO. None of it made any sense, you just don't encourage that approach the entire season. During blowouts, fine, go work on development
 

lovegtm

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His makes sense, but didn’t we see video on him working with Kobe on how to get that midrange 2 on purpose, as in, as the ultimate goal?

Obviously, we’d want him to be good at the shots he gets, but it seemed like an odd choice to emphasize, and people mentioned it at the time. Like, in terms of triage for limited time in practice, it sounds like it would have been better to work on the stuff he’s working on now.
Agree. Based on the comments from the Celtics about giving him “clear things to work on” this summer, and what Hanlen is saying, everyone involved realized the need to focus things a lot more than they did last year.
 

lovegtm

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Obviously they're not going to include any missed shots in that supercut, but I really liked JT's D there.
This is such an under-appreciated part of his upside. Tatum is already a plus defender, while you have other really good offensive young guys who are still way away from that, and it’s unclear whether they’ll get there.
 

TripleOT

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Didn’t Kobe work with him all last summer on mid range game? Keep Tatum away from Kobe.
Less Kobe influence, more Antoine Walker influence (just not financially)

Toine needs to lose 100 pounds and get back on the court in The Big Three, since there are fours there.
 

benhogan

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He’s looking jacked.
JT is definitely looking bigger/stronger. Some nice finishes with contact going to the hoop, and step-back 3s.

size/strength increase? check
shot selection? check

If Enes Kanter steals shots from Jayson, Jaylen, Kemba or Gordon while learning to shoot 3s this season, I will put my foot through the TV screen. Dunks, put backs, sealing down low on mismatches, great. Up 20pts, EK can launch 3s to his heart's content.
 

lovegtm

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JT is definitely looking bigger/stronger. Some nice finishes with contact going to the hoop, and step-back 3s.

size/strength increase? check
shot selection? check

If Enes Kanter steals shots from Jayson, Jaylen, Kemba or Gordon while learning to shoot 3s this season, I will put my foot through the TV screen. Dunks, put backs, sealing down low on mismatches, great. Up 20pts, EK can launch 3s to his heart's content.
Were you fine with Baynes shooting those when wide open? (I was, and Kanter’s shot looks mechanically better).

If popping the center to 3 is part of the offense, you need him taking those shots in order to make everyone’s looks better. I don’t think Milwaukee’s scorers are super-unhappy that Brook Lopez learned how to shoot 3s.

Iso-Mook may have been a problem, but Mook launching 3s whenever he was open in the flow of the offense was a big positive.

Offenses are ecosystems, and roleplayers need to take open shots. Those aren’t “stolen” from anyone: they’re created by threatening offensive players, and in turn feed back and make those offensive threats better.
 

mcpickl

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Were you fine with Baynes shooting those when wide open? (I was, and Kanter’s shot looks mechanically better).

If popping the center to 3 is part of the offense, you need him taking those shots in order to make everyone’s looks better. I don’t think Milwaukee’s scorers are super-unhappy that Brook Lopez learned how to shoot 3s.

Iso-Mook may have been a problem, but Mook launching 3s whenever he was open in the flow of the offense was a big positive.

Offenses are ecosystems, and roleplayers need to take open shots. Those aren’t “stolen” from anyone: they’re created by threatening offensive players, and in turn feed back and make those offensive threats better.
Baynes shot 1 three per game last season.

If Kanter keeps it to one attempt per game, great.

Much more than that, pass. Especially since his biggest strength is offensive rebounding. Hard to grab those from beyond the arc.
 

luckiestman

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Baynes shot 1 three per game last season.

If Kanter keeps it to one attempt per game, great.

Much more than that, pass. Especially since his biggest strength is offensive rebounding. Hard to grab those from beyond the arc.

Given this line of thought, I guess the question is: by making a defender honor Kanter’s shot from the 3pt line is the amount it makes it easier for the other guys to score worth the cost of the decreased likelihood of an offensive rebound?
 

lovegtm

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Given this line of thought, I guess the question is: by making a defender honor Kanter’s shot from the 3pt line is the amount it makes it easier for the other guys to score worth the cost of the decreased likelihood of an offensive rebound?
Most teams with a 5 who isn’t a vertical spacing threat (Capela, Gobert, etc) tend to think it’s worth it. Toronto needed Gasol launching, Milwaukee gets a lot of benefit from Brook...even Philly would probably be better if Embiid could shoot it better from 3. And Embiid is really good inside.

It’s not like every play in an offense is a pick and pop, but when the center finds himself outside, it’s really helpful if he is willing to take and hit that shot.
 

benhogan

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Were you fine with Baynes shooting those when wide open? (I was, and Kanter’s shot looks mechanically better).

If popping the center to 3 is part of the offense, you need him taking those shots in order to make everyone’s looks better. I don’t think Milwaukee’s scorers are super-unhappy that Brook Lopez learned how to shoot 3s.

Iso-Mook may have been a problem, but Mook launching 3s whenever he was open in the flow of the offense was a big positive.

Offenses are ecosystems, and roleplayers need to take open shots. Those aren’t “stolen” from anyone: they’re created by threatening offensive players, and in turn feed back and make those offensive threats better.
Rotations are also ecosystems, and defense counts as much as offense. For a roleplayer, and 5th offensive option, his defense counts even more, since he'll be taking the least amount of shots...Much like Mook, Kanter's defense sucks. I'd rather see Enis play on the 2nd unit, if we go Kemba, Jaylen, Gordon, Tatum and a 5

Baynes was a solid role player/5th offensive option/plus defender, don't need to re-hash all his highlights since you also liked him.

Brook Lopez was experienced shooting 3s/plays solid defense. He brings plenty to their ecosystem
 
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lovegtm

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Rotations are also ecosystems, and defense counts as much as offense. For a roleplayer, and 5th offensive option, his defense counts even more, since he'll be taking the least amount of shots...Much like Mook, Kanter's defense sucks. I'd rather see Enis play on the 2nd unit, if we go Kemba, Jaylen, Gordon, Tatum and a 5

Baynes was a solid role player/5th offensive option/plus defender, don't need to re-hash all his highlights since you also liked him.

Brook Lopez was experienced shooting 3s/plays solid defense. He brings plenty to their ecosystem
Sure, but whether Kanter should be out there at all is a different question than how he should play on the offensive end of the floor.

If it helps, I can add a signature to all of my posts that says “I don’t think Enes Kanter is the answer at center” so that we don’t have to discuss that aspect each time.
 

mcpickl

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Given this line of thought, I guess the question is: by making a defender honor Kanter’s shot from the 3pt line is the amount it makes it easier for the other guys to score worth the cost of the decreased likelihood of an offensive rebound?
For me, it's probably around the same one attempt per game Baynes took. I think Kanter will help give the other shooters space not by stretching the floor, but by being in the paint where he has to be accounted for because he can score in there and will win more than his share of one-on-one battles for a rebound.

I'd rather he's doing that on the second unit where his defense is less damaging, he could probably shoot it a little more often if he was on the floor with lesser offensive players.
 

Jimbodandy

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For me, it's probably around the same one attempt per game Baynes took. I think Kanter will help give the other shooters space not by stretching the floor, but by being in the paint where he has to be accounted for because he can score in there and will win more than his share of one-on-one battles for a rebound.

I'd rather he's doing that on the second unit where his defense is less damaging, he could probably shoot it a little more often if he was on the floor with lesser offensive players.
I agree with this completely.

Kanter will have some gravity on the post. That will help. It will be infrequent when there's a high value in dragging his guy 23 feet from the basket. That'll happen, but really with only elite rim protectors IMO. Then we'll want him popping those. Otherwise it's best to let Kanter do what he does best.
 

benhogan

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Sure, but whether Kanter should be out there at all is a different question than how he should play on the offensive end of the floor.

If it helps, I can add a signature to all of my posts that says “I don’t think Enes Kanter is the answer at center” so that we don’t have to discuss that aspect each time.
I'm excited about a bigger, stronger and Kobe-free Jayson ...if he and Jaylen jump offensively this season, I just don't see the need for Kanter to play with them and Kemba/Hayward. That's all I'm saying, I think you agree
 

johnmd20

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Sure, but whether Kanter should be out there at all is a different question than how he should play on the offensive end of the floor.

If it helps, I can add a signature to all of my posts that says “I don’t think Enes Kanter is the answer at center” so that we don’t have to discuss that aspect each time.
Judging by your posting history, where you make up approximately 50% of the posts in every thread in this forum, it stands to reason you would like to have that discussion every time it comes up. Granted, your posts are generally awesome and informed, so you're like Lebron in 2013, not Westbrook in 2019. High volume, high production, and highly efficient.
 

lovegtm

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Judging by your posting history, where you make up approximately 50% of the posts in every thread in this forum, it stands to reason you would like to have that discussion every time it comes up. Granted, your posts are generally awesome and informed, so you're like Lebron in 2013, not Westbrook in 2019. High volume, high production, and highly efficient.
Yeah, it’s pretty fair to say that I’ve gotten too caught up in minutiae this offseason—really can’t wait for actual games to start.
 

johnmd20

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Yeah, it’s pretty fair to say that I’ve gotten too caught up in minutiae this offseason—really can’t wait for actual games to start.
The LoveGTM Scouting Report: Great posts, high efficiency, high volume, utterly horrible avatar.