He's ahead of schedule, BUT if this defensive performance doesn't put him solidly in the TOP5 players in the NBA ATM I'm not sure what people are looking for.
Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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What I learned about KD from this series:
Defending KD starts before the ball gets in his hands
You have to deny him the ball, challenge every entry pass, get up underneath him, and make it hard for him to get to his spots
Tatum and Grant did well. JB was letting KD get position and then started defending him after KD got the ball.
He is getting to the rim when he needs to. The inevitable step back when things are tight has turned into a big dunk when things are tight. He is going to work at both ends.
Defensive reputation is all about brand name. If you're Kawhi or Gobert, people will rank you 5-10 spots higher in player rankings, even after you've stopped being That Guy. Conversely, if you're an elite defender like Tatum, but you're still viewed as primarily a scorer, people will have serious debates about whether you're better than Ja, and think of your D as maybe a marginal tiebreaker when comparing you with Luka or LeBron.
Yep. That's how almost everyone thinks. You're Trae bad, you're Gobert good, or you're everyone else. As if the points that Tatum takes away and, say, Donovan Mitchell gives away don't count.
That one post move he made last night was absolutely stellar. Got the ball outside, backed his guy down, gave a little dream shake, and then slid under for a finger roll. As a guy who is a big fan of - and coaches people in - post play, that was a thing of beauty.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10_RskZo6lA
3:04 mark - just awesome.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10_RskZo6lA
3:04 mark - just awesome.
So, if Tatum is a Top 5 player (and I'm not saying he isn't), who are we kicking off this list: Giannis, KD, Jokic, Embiid, Curry.
You could sell me on either Durant or Curry. I've already booted LeBron, Luka and Morant. #defensematters indeed.
You could sell me on either Durant or Curry. I've already booted LeBron, Luka and Morant. #defensematters indeed.
I would love to see the flip set of numbers for Durant on O and his D against Tatum.
Good catch, and that play made me think of my response to people who pine for the NBA of the 80's: it's not that these skills don't exist. Post play, footwork, these skills are all alive and well. What we don't do anymore is give the ball to the largest humans on the court so they can back down their defender for 12 seconds while 8 other dudes stand still and watch. This is a good thing.
Jaylen and Jayson both show flashes of that footwork from time to time. Obviously not a major focus of their games, but I always wonder if they could do more with it.
I don't see how you don't put him past Durant after this series.
And now for the part where I say hyperbolic things I may regret:
I think kicking Jokic or Embiid off is less crazy than it sounds, if we're talking about the playoffs. Probably I don't do it, but "30PPG playmaking big wing who plays lockdown D" gives him a boost on its own.
Curry is so special offensively that I need to see this playoff run before deciding one way or another. I don't expect his game to age really well, so that part of the list will take care of itself soon.
The golden rule of Jayson Tatum: if you see something he could realistically add via repetition, he will add it at some point.
Curry is already 34 years old. IMO, he's already passed the point of his game not aging well (it has), unless we're talking about his game not aging well when he's like 40.
NBA.com has this information. Go to games / pick the game / Box Score / and there will be a drop-down menu that you can choose "matchups" and the information for that game will be there.
KD guarded JT for 2:04 of game time - a total of 10.6 possessions - and gave up 2 JT points and 10 Cs points. JT shot 0-1 (3P) and had 2 FTs.
With most of those guys, it's the defense. LeBron went from a really good two-way player to a sieve defensively. Durant isn't there yet, but I don't see the explosive ability to cover the whole court that he showed in his prime. And Jokic, I thought would be Kanter-level bad defensively, and that hasn't been the case. He's actually been really good. But in terms of footspeed, he just is what he is, and it's not going to get better. I know the advanced metrics love his defense, but then I see what Golden State is doing to him defensively, and it makes me really question the value of his defense, especially in the playoffs.
Agreed on Curry. It's so hard to measure how the way he changes what defenses want to do, and the way his gravity warps the floor, impacts an offense, even when his shot isn't falling.
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Yeah, I don't get the "Curry's game won't age well" thing. In his age 32 season he shot 42% from three and averaged 32 points a game. This year he's still shooting 38% from three and still averaging 25.5 points a game on just 19 FGA.
He's been 34 years of age for 43 days, having missed basically every one of the last regular season games since turning 34. But in his 4 playoff games since returning, he's shooting 39% from three, 51% from the floor, and in just 28 minutes a game he's scoring 27.5 points a game. I mean....the guy doesn't look like he's aging poorly at all.
I still might put Tatum over him at this point, but not because Steph's game is aging poorly.
He's probably always going to shoot well. And he's been really good up to this point. I think the concern for Curry would be that his defense and efficiency erode enough that he basically becomes Trae Young. Agreed that we're not there yet.
I've always argued that everyone should work on their post game, not just the bigs. Some of the best post players I've ever seen were like 6'6" or smaller - Kobe, Jordan, Barkley, Aguirre, Dantley, to name a few. Using the post is still a great way to not only score, but to get open threes. Going inside-out is still the best way to get a clean look from three. Assuming you have a post player who can pass, which Tatum can.
For the series, KD defended Tatum on 82 possessions. Tatum went 9-19, 4-8 from three, and 3 turnovers. Only 1 assist though, I’m guessing because KD is left one on one against Tatum, while other guys get help.
Also, crazy number from last night. Tatum had 18 potential assists, only 5 actual. Those are the looks we will have to hit against the Bucks.
Yeah, this is what I meant, and we're not there yet. But if you take away just a bit of offball movement, have him slip a bit more on defense, and not quite be able to get in the lane the same way, he's not the same guy, even if he still hits 43% of his 3s.
I'm terrified of him this season.
Kicking Jokic or Embiid off is as crazy as it sounds. They're two of the three best players in the game. As much as I unreasonably love JT, he's not as impactful as they are. If anyone is coming off the top 5, it ain't them (or Giannis).
Curry’s ankle issues can pop up at any time, that’s gotta be the main concern with him during a long playoff run.
How players are ranked is incredibly subjective. Most lists primarily use offense to dictate rankings. That's fine. Personally, I like players that impact winning in the playoffs (which seems on point now but has been my stance forever). Defensive ability/versatility is an important part of that equation. As you noted hunting Trae, Harden, 5s is a real thing in the modern NBA playoffs.
Giannis is the best player, how you view the rest of the players will be dictated by your defensive weighting, like you said #defense matters
+1. JT is a motivated learning machine getting bigger/stronger every offseason. It's a potent combination in sports
Yeah, I absolutely loved that play too. There is the obvious McHale comparisons with that kind of footwork and underneath finish, but to me, it really just shows you how the game has slowed down for him and how his added strength has given him the confidence to go to the rim. It’s really a marvel that he is 24 wit this much experience already. Going to be amazing to watch him to continue to mature (dominate).
Regarding the point about how much experience he as already at 24: Tatum has already cracked the top 200 all time for playoff points. In the Nets series he passed the career totals of, among others, T-Mac, Derrick Rose, Mike Conley and Zack Randolph. In the next series, he almost certainly will pass Jokic, Blake Griffin and Bob Lanier. It's kind of amazing. https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_career_p.html
I have watched a lot of Drew Hanlen’s YouTube channel, where him skills training Jayson Tatum is featured prominently. One thing that has really helped Tatum with his one on one defense is the extensive one on one play he has done over the years with various sized great scores, from Beal to Embiid.
The things they trained to get better at for year 5 were: taking the ball to the rim with more force/better body and arm positioning; and playing against the double team. I’d say they achieved their objective.
The things they trained to get better at for year 5 were: taking the ball to the rim with more force/better body and arm positioning; and playing against the double team. I’d say they achieved their objective.
Jeff Goodman rings the bell first
https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/celtics/goodman-tatum-is-the-best-all-around-player-in-the-nba
https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/celtics/goodman-tatum-is-the-best-all-around-player-in-the-nba
Notwithstanding JT's technical foul last night, I thought he really reeled himself in from whining/complaining about the officials and got back on defense right away. I'm guessing Ime spoke with him after game 1 and let him know how badly they need him to remain focused at all times and let him (Ime) worry about the officials.
Really? I saw him have some pretty egregious reactions in the first quarter alone. Once when he was dribbling and the ball got knocked out of bounds, he thought it was a foul; another time when he "pulled the chair" on defense and was called for a foul and didn't think it should have been. Both times he was running down the court in disbelief.
View: https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/1522077205748084738?s=20&t=RdzAWgBe_sRuDgwkO1jrCQ
Defense isn't just a tiebreaker for would-be elite wings.
Defense isn't just a tiebreaker for would-be elite wings.
This game and this series are now career- and legacy-defining games for Jayson Tatum.
His play in the second half of the season and in Brooklyn series vaulted his name into the top 5 conversation.
If the Celtics drop this series, after his game 3 - a game the Celtics win if he is merely bad - that takes his name right back out of it and fast. And his name stays out of that coversation until he proves he can win.
His play in the second half of the season and in Brooklyn series vaulted his name into the top 5 conversation.
If the Celtics drop this series, after his game 3 - a game the Celtics win if he is merely bad - that takes his name right back out of it and fast. And his name stays out of that coversation until he proves he can win.
Does that mean that Jokic drops out as well? How about Embiid if the 76ers lose? Doncic?
Show me the games where 1) they were not just bad but historically awful, and 2) merely being bad or even very bad would have been enough for their team to pull out the win.
Jayson Tatum had one rebound in game 3. One. Rebound. It is one thing to have a terrible shooting night - or to be defended so well as to take away his ability to score. It is quite another to have that happen and find no other ways to help his team.
Edit: Heck. There is a case to be made that if he stays focused on his defensive assignments throughout the third quarter, THAT would have been enough for a win.
Agreed that those guys won’t have a game like that on their resume. YMMV on how much of an effect it had, and some may think there was zero effect...but in my opinion the fact that Tatum had his worst game by a country mile in the playoffs (at least in recent memory) occurred in a game where he got clubbed in the head by one of the strongest players in the nba running full steam at him & knocking him into the stanchion in the process (16 minutes into the game) is not a coincidence.
I’ll add that I also agree that assuming he is fine health wise for the remainder of the series that if he doesn’t play at elite level from here on out the talk about him in the offseason will likely center around “but can he win..”
Jokic did put up a 15 point, 3 rebound game in a bubble loss to the Clippers. Embiid put up a series of stinkers against eventual champion Toronto in 2019 (13, 12, and 11 points in 3 games). Kawhi has had some duds in his career, too.
EDIT: I do agree that if Tatum and the Celtics go meekly into the night the rest of this series, then it will be time to pump the brakes a bit on Tatum's ascension into the Top 5. OTOH, if the Celtics were to go down fighting in 7 despite 4 incredible games from Tatum, then I don't think his Game 3 performance should define his career.
EDIT: I do agree that if Tatum and the Celtics go meekly into the night the rest of this series, then it will be time to pump the brakes a bit on Tatum's ascension into the Top 5. OTOH, if the Celtics were to go down fighting in 7 despite 4 incredible games from Tatum, then I don't think his Game 3 performance should define his career.
That is a potential mitigating factor. Cutting against that would be that it is not as if he got off to a great start pre hit by Giannis.
Yup. I said in game thread he didn’t look like he was going to set the world on fire before the hit, but I maintain that even if he maintained that level throughout they win...also he seems to focus a lot on other guys early in games before trying to do more later on (that’s the eye test, a very untrained eye test at that)!
Edit: that wretched sentence containing “maintain” 2x in 5 words is brought to you by some good ole fashioned insomnia kicking in from 2-530am, likely caused by my frustration with game 3
Well Jokic has won an MVP. And his worst game of the series they just lost (to a superior team, btw) was a 25 point, 10 rebound, 6 assist, 3 steal game in which he shot 12-25.
Tatum, never an MVP, is playing with a superior team, against an opponent without its second-best offensive player, and just put up a 10 point, 1 rebound, 3 assist, 1 steal game in which he shot 4-19.
I don't see these as remotely comparable.
Of course, the series isn't over yet.
Speaking only for myself, I disagree with pretty much all of this. Even if Tatum plays poorly the rest of this series and people seize your narrative, I am buying all of the Tatum shares for sale.
People can define and label and narrate Tatum's 24 year old, five season NBA career as much as they want. I am willing to gamble that we still haven't seen him anywhere near his peak.
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You said you disagreed with everything I wrote, but then you focused your criticism on things I didn’t say. (You defended him as a future asset - I evaluated his trac
A player cannot lay credible claim to “top 5” if his own poor play lead to an early playoff exit for his team. That’s on the table now for Tatum. The rest of this season will say whether Tatum can claim to be a too 5 guy or whether he’s viewed skeptically as someone who needs to prove he can win to get there.
Has there ever been a top 5 player who won nothing and once was THE REASON his team went home early in the spring?
Lebron had a 2/10, 7 point, 2 rebound, 4 assist game in a game 5 loss to the Pacers in the 2014 ECF. (He’s had a lot of other bad shooting scoring nights but with how he fills up the box score it’s hard to find other games with truly empty stat lines.) He also only played 24 minutes due to foul trouble.
The bottom line is that great NBA players play a lot of playoff games and are bound to have some truly awful performances in the playoffs. Tatum was really bad in Game 3. He’s also still very young, might have been impacted by the Giannis flying hit, and has been a consistently high impact playoff player. One bad game is not going to define him, especially not a Game 3. If the Bucks take control of this series, the story will be that Tatum wasn’t quite ready to take on Giannis this year and the NBA will start hyping the future Tatum/Giannis battles as a marquee matchup of league stars. If this goes 6 or 7 no one is going to define the series based on Game 3. If the Celtics win, no one other than Tatum is even going to remember this performance.
Agreed. I said upthread the narrative if he doesn't have a couple big games and they lose the series will be "can Tatum win," but dont really think it's justified at his age. Even not taking into account my stance that he Giannis hit affected his performance, the fact remains these types of games happen. Both to "winners" and "losers." Just a quick glance at Steph Curry's playoff gamelog - but he put up two absolute clunkers in the 2016 finals vs the Cavs in games 1 & 7 (as bad as Tatum's yesterday, no. But still terrible games for a guy at the height of his powers and 27 years old. That was his 2nd consecutive MVP year).
James Harden? I know he got his points but in the 2018 WCF series loss to Golden State he went 5-21 in game 5 (which they somehow won!!), and then 12/29 (2/13 from 3) in the game 7 loss. Although Im pretty sure that was the Chris Paul injury at the wrong time year.
I think overall I agree with both of the above stances. I just think it's part of a players learning curve...this is the 1st time the Celts have a chance to win a title with Tatum as the clear alpha dog on the team. At 24. He, like many before him, might eff it up. If he continues to eff it up through his mid 20s I'll then question his ability to win. Because people that lead teams to NBA titles at 24 are the exception...
I don't understand what you're saying. If the Cs go out this year for any reason, yes JT will not be a top 5 player this year and he won't enter next year in the top-5 conversation either.
OTOH, I feel pretty comfortable in saying that at least once in his career, JT will be in the top-3 in MVP vote getting and he will also be a HOFer. Even if he doesn't win a title, and assuming continued good health, his counting stats will be so ridiculous that he will be in the HOF.
I'm pretty sure that JT does not want the monikor, "Best player never to win a title" so I'd bet on him getting at least one. Hopefully it is with the Cs and JB.
Lebron had 2 titles at that point. If he had ended the Heat 2012 playoff run with a game such as the above, there would have been a lot of public questioning of his ability to win. He would still have been viewed as a top 5 player, but only because he was already recognixzed as the second best player to ever play.
There is a difference between "Can Tatum win?" - a very fair question to ask if the Celtics drop the Bucks series, and "Tatum can't win!" - not just now but ever. I'm not claiming the latter.
I think it is fair to question Harden's standing among the greats because of his playoff track record as his team's alpha.
yup on Harden, and Paul right? Regarding Tatum, I have zero issue with anyone asking that...Personally, I just don't bother until players at their peaks (eg I think we are in that phase now with someone like Embiid), but I certainly understand why it's a major talking point.
I'd argue the only way Tatum will have a career defining moment this year is if the C's win the title. Otherwise, he's a 24 year old man with the vast majority of his career still ahead of him.
Are there many people outside the C's board who would have Tatum in the top 5? Top 10 is all but a given, even with a bad series. Top 5 is a given with a title this year.
Are there many people outside the C's board who would have Tatum in the top 5? Top 10 is all but a given, even with a bad series. Top 5 is a given with a title this year.
People being objective, looking at actual numbers and impact stats would agree with you.
Basketball twitterverse idiots have Tatum much lower.