Jaylen Brown: Will he be enough in Year 8?

Ed Hillel

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It was obviously very dirty, any non-Celtics fan would agree. Jaylen should be suspended and Joe should have removed him for at least a few minutes after he got into it with Duncan after the review, because he needed to refocus and Jaylen was energizing Miami’s awful fairweather fanbase.

Then again, Miami is a dirty team and has been for many years, so I don’t really feel bad when they get it back. Bam’s move last night was dirty af, as well. I’d like to see him suspended, too.
 

128

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It was obviously very dirty, any non-Celtics fan would agree. Jaylen should be suspended and Joe should have removed him for at least a few minutes after he got into it with Duncan after the review, because he needed to refocus and Jaylen was energizing Miami’s awful fairweather fanbase.
Suspended for a flagrant one?
 

Ed Hillel

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Suspended for a flagrant one?
Imo it was a clear flagrant 2, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the league make that adjustment post-game. It was pretty ugly.

Same with Bam, that has to be a flagrant of some kind, at least. I’d say a 2. They didn’t even review it during the game lol.
 

Jimbodandy

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I’ll go with years. Particularly in a game where two other Heat players left the game with injuries. Reminded me of the play where Wade dislocated Rondo’s elbow.

I’m glad JB pushed back on the Heat’s typical approach to try to push the envelope with physical play. I am equally glad that Robinson was not hurt.
Yup, it was a dirty play, everyone knew it (Jaylen's "he won't try that again"), and I don't think we should condone it because of laundry.

A suspension is possible, would not be undeserved, and might be a good reality check for Jaylen to learn to keep his cool.
I agree with these. I think that anyone who played can relate to that moment when you've had enough physicality from some guy and just react, which is where the laundry comes in. But you can't do that shit. I'm glad that Robinson didn't get hurt.

Miami was seriously mucking things up and is a dirty team. I'm really glad that Jaylen pushed back. But there are better ways to do it than that. Gotta know that. Remember that game when Embiid was throwing Laimbeer elbows and Marcus two-hand shoved him out of the club? That was pushing back without hurting a guy. Make your point, get your technical.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I could be totally off base but it feels like there is a vast distance between what NBA players consider dirty versus the fans.

You can't stay on the court if you are worried about people getting away with things so maybe that's why the players tolerate it - but the biggest complaints about this stuff seems to come from the chattering class of media & fans. My guess is that Robinson and Brown have already moved on but maybe the league will make a big deal out of it.
 

slamminsammya

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I could be totally off base but it feels like there is a vast distance between what NBA players consider dirty versus the fans.

You can't stay on the court if you are worried about people getting away with things so maybe that's why the players tolerate it - but the biggest complaints about this stuff seems to come from the chattering class of media & fans. My guess is that Robinson and Brown have already moved on but maybe the league will make a big deal out of it.
Reddick and Jefferson were emphasizing how he could've really hurt Robinson's arm/elbow and they are two former players.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Reddick and Jefferson were emphasizing how he could've really hurt Robinson's arm/elbow and they are two former players.
I heard that too. They didn't call it dirty though - they discussed it in the context of what sort of foul it was.

Look, I don't know what people think but to me it seems like players look at this stuff as the cost of doing business. Fans and their gatekeepers, who have incentives to keep it going - content demand and distribution - but players don't seem to frame this in the same moral terms. Stuff got chippy.

Perhaps that's wrong and Jaylen needs to be educated on how to play more like a professional competitor.
 

lovegtm

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Miami was seriously mucking things up and is a dirty team. I'm really glad that Jaylen pushed back. But there are better ways to do it than that. Gotta know that. Remember that game when Embiid was throwing Laimbeer elbows and Marcus two-hand shoved him out of the club? That was pushing back without hurting a guy. Make your point, get your technical.
Miami was mucking things up, and Bam's groin shot was dirty.

But Robinson and Herro? They weren't playing dirty; they were just fouling like crazy because they were overmatched against Tatum, KP, and Brown. No one was in any physical danger.

That's on the refs to fix, and if they're not going to, I would be IRATE as a Heat fan/coach if they stopped doing it in that particular game.
 

slamminsammya

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I heard that too. They didn't call it dirty though - they discussed it in the context of what sort of foul it was.

Look, I don't know what people think but to me it seems like players look at this stuff as the cost of doing business. Fans and their gatekeepers, who have incentives to keep it going - content demand and distribution - but players don't seem to frame this in the same moral terms. Stuff got chippy.

Perhaps that's wrong and Jaylen needs to be educated on how to play more like a professional competitor.
I may be wrong but I don't think players finely distinguish dirty acts from deliberate acts that might cause an injury. I interpreted the "might hurt his arm" as essentially calling it out as dirty. Ive never heard a player be like "yeah he couldve injured someone with that but its just good hard basketball".
 

Kliq

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Robinson shouldn't have had his hand in there. I have zero problem with what Jaylen Brown did--he knew exactly what Robinson was doing, trying to instigate unnecessary additional physical contact after a play was over to help cover for the fact that he was overwhelmed on defense. Anyone that has ever played the game understands exactly what Robinson's intent was there. And instead of whining to the refs, or just turning the other cheek, Brown sent the message that if you are going to try and play like that, there are going to be consequences.

The Celtics have struggled in the past by being out muscled by the Heat and letting the Heat scrap away at them with tacky stuff like what Robinson was doing. Brown sent a clear message to Robinson and all of Miami, that if they want to try that kind of stuff, they might get their shoulder yanked out of their socket. Don't try that again.
 

JCizzle

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Imo it was a clear flagrant 2, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the league make that adjustment post-game. It was pretty ugly.

Same with Bam, that has to be a flagrant of some kind, at least. I’d say a 2. They didn’t even review it during the game lol.
Not only that, but didn't they call the foul on KP? Just clueless officiating.
 

Jimbodandy

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I heard that too. They didn't call it dirty though - they discussed it in the context of what sort of foul it was.

Look, I don't know what people think but to me it seems like players look at this stuff as the cost of doing business. Fans and their gatekeepers, who have incentives to keep it going - content demand and distribution - but players don't seem to frame this in the same moral terms. Stuff got chippy.
I don't think that you're wrong here. In real time, it's easy to do something that you wish that you didn't do. It's not intent to injure. And players get that. They've all been there.

But it's still not cool. I've apologized for shit like that and have been pissed off when someone else did it. It's a far cry from some actual dirty shit like Dray does though.

JB doesn't have a history of borderline things like this. If it's a one off, it won't be a thing.
 

Jimbodandy

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Miami was mucking things up, and Bam's groin shot was dirty.

But Robinson and Herro? They weren't playing dirty; they were just fouling like crazy because they were overmatched against Tatum, KP, and Brown. No one was in any physical danger.

That's on the refs to fix, and if they're not going to, I would be IRATE as a Heat fan/coach if they stopped doing it in that particular game.
I thought that Robinson was being super physical for him even before that possession. And I get that he's a bit of a square peg on that team where unnecessary chippiness is expected as part of doing business. Not sure if he's trying to earn minutes or was just pissed off about being overmatched. He was made the fool a bit in the last matchup, and Miami overall was physically dominated when they were running out lineups heavy in Herro, Robinson, and Rozier. To me it wasn't just that last exchange that pissed Brown off. DR was repeatedly extra, and Brown was sick of it.

If that crew used their whistles in the first three quarters, it wouldn't have amplified. Good playoff practice I guess.
 

lovegtm

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Robinson shouldn't have had his hand in there. I have zero problem with what Jaylen Brown did--he knew exactly what Robinson was doing, trying to instigate unnecessary additional physical contact after a play was over to help cover for the fact that he was overwhelmed on defense. Anyone that has ever played the game understands exactly what Robinson's intent was there. And instead of whining to the refs, or just turning the other cheek, Brown sent the message that if you are going to try and play like that, there are going to be consequences.

The Celtics have struggled in the past by being out muscled by the Heat and letting the Heat scrap away at them with tacky stuff like what Robinson was doing. Brown sent a clear message to Robinson and all of Miami, that if they want to try that kind of stuff, they might get their shoulder yanked out of their socket. Don't try that again.
I'm also glad the Cs were getting tough, but there is a roughly 0% chance this would be your opinion if Jaylen Brown played for any team except the Celtics.
 

Kliq

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I'm also glad the Cs were getting tough, but there is a roughly 0% chance this would be your opinion if Jaylen Brown played for any team except the Celtics.
I disagree--I feel like I understand the actions taking place in the game and would be able to bring a rational approach to the situation just like I feel like I did right now. I take exception to the fact that you could dismiss such analysis as simple fan bias.
 

slamminsammya

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They called a foul. It wasn't like Robinson was getting away with it - they called him for it. Why do you need to then lever his elbow like that? I don't think he was "sending a message", he was just frustrated in the moment and did something stupid. And then doubling down on it after the game? I think it was bullshit by JB.
 

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I laughed at Jaylen’s comments post game, but there is roughly a 1000% chance that Celtics fans would be apoplectic if someone on another team did that to White or Al lol.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Love how the tweet characterizes JB's comments as "not hold[ing] back"? JB basically said:

At the end of the day, you got to protect and own your space. I feel like Duncan Robinson knew what he was doing there, trying to get tangled up or draw whatever. I don’t know what he was trying to do but I bet you he won’t do it again.”​
This all seems pretty tame to me but maybe I'm the one out of tune.

They called a foul. It wasn't like Robinson was getting away with it - they called him for it. Why do you need to then lever his elbow like that? I don't think he was "sending a message", he was just frustrated in the moment and did something stupid. And then doubling down on it after the game? I think it was bullshit by JB.
Robinson had JB's arm. JB was trying to free it up. While he did it forcefully I don't think he did it excessively. He basically didn't wait for Robinson to let go.

Are we looking at a possible suspension here?
No.
 

benhogan

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If that crew used their whistles in the first three quarters, it wouldn't have amplified. Good playoff practice I guess.
100% agree here. This isn't a one-play or a one-game thing. This has been Spoelstra's playbook with the JAYs & especially Brown for years culminating in G7 last year.

Just about every play the Heat/Duncan/Herro have 2 hands on the JAYs hips. The Refs let it go yesterday and Brown was fed up. Maybe the league looks at this game and says next time we'll call this game tighter.

If not then send in Tillman to mix it up and force the refs to call a tighter game. CJM liked Jaylen's reaction & understands what the Heat are trying to do since it is right out of Bob Huggins' playbook
 

tbrown_01923

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If not then send in Tillman to mix it up and force the refs to call a tighter game. CJM liked Jaylen's reaction & understands what the Heat are trying to do since it is right out of Bob Huggins' playbook
And Springer. I think the new folks can turn up the physicality when needed - while not allowing the top 6 to get drawn into foul trouble
 

GeorgeCostanza

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Neither Bam nor Jaylen will have their fouls upgraded to flagrant 2s and no one is getting suspended. Jesus Christ guys.

Putting my money where my mouth is, I will bet anyone any amount of money for any cause on any of the above points.
 

BaseballJones

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Love how the tweet characterizes JB's comments as "not hold[ing] back"? JB basically said:

At the end of the day, you got to protect and own your space. I feel like Duncan Robinson knew what he was doing there, trying to get tangled up or draw whatever. I don’t know what he was trying to do but I bet you he won’t do it again.”​
This all seems pretty tame to me but maybe I'm the one out of tune.


Robinson had JB's arm. JB was trying to free it up. While he did it forcefully I don't think he did it excessively. He basically didn't wait for Robinson to let go.


No.
All Jaylen had to do was lift his arm up and away and it would have been free. He yanked on Robinson on purpose to make his point. He’s not dirty but it definitely was intentional and easily avoidable.
 

lars10

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I’ll go with years. Particularly in a game where two other Heat players left the game with injuries. Reminded me of the play where Wade dislocated Rondo’s elbow.

I’m glad JB pushed back on the Heat’s typical approach to try to push the envelope with physical play. I am equally glad that Robinson was not hurt.
Just want to make sure.. we’re talking about the play where Wade hooked his arm around Rondo then fell, swept out Rondo’s legs and then put his whole body weight onto Rondo while falling? We’re saying that’s the same as what Jaylen did?

This won’t be talked about next week let alone years.
 

bigq

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Just want to make sure.. we’re talking about the play where Wade hooked his arm around Rondo then fell, swept out Rondo’s legs and then put his whole body weight onto Rondo while falling? We’re saying that’s the same as what Jaylen did?

This won’t be talked about next week let alone years.
It won't be talked about because Robinson was not injured.

If I were a Heat fan (gross) and Robinson had his shoulder separated by Jaylen I would remember it and bring it up for years just like we do with Wade's dirty play.
 

lars10

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It won't be talked about because Robinson was not injured.

If I were a Heat fan (gross) and Robinson had his shoulder separated by Jaylen I would remember it and bring it up for years just like we do with Wade's dirty play.
But beyond that as well… the reason Robinson didn’t get hurt is because what Jaylen did was only the first part of what Wade did.. Wade grabbed Rondo’s body and forced him to move in a certain direction .. that’s where the similarities end. Wade then took out Rondo’s legs with his own.. and then fell on top of him.

Feel like I need to rewatch the JB play because I just can’t see how they’re at all analogous.. and it’s not just the result, IMO.

Not trying to pick on your post.. just the idea that has been posited in this thread that the only way anyone can’t see that they’re the same thing is because I’m/we’re a Celts fan.

Edit: I get that JB could have seriously hurt Robinson with what he was doing… but none of us actually know how much force he actually put on Duncan’s arm.
 

TripleOT

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It was a bang bang play and Brown just try to extricate himself. I don’t think he had some grand plan to hurt the guy. Robinson stayed on the floor looking to get the exact call he did get, which could have been a big turning point in a close game.

Usually win NBA players are talking to a ref, the other teams player doesn’t come in to start a debate. Robinson clearly came into the discussion between Brown and the referee and that’s a big no-no in the NBA. I can see why Brown got upset
 

RorschachsMask

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I want Jaylen to keep taking C&S threes, as it’s a shot we’ll need him to hit in the playoffs, but god damn it has just abandoned him the last few years. It’s at 34.2% this season, slightly ahead of his pull-ups which are at 33.8%. Just to the eye, it’s one of the flatter threes in the league. Was hoping lethal shooter helped this past summer, but he’s had really mixed results throughout the league.

One thing I’m keeping a close eye on is the Jaylen on, Tatum off numbers. It’s down to +5.5 on CTG, and +6.5 on Pbpstats, which is still really good, but it’s been falling hard for a couple of months now. The time off over the next week should be good for him, even with the dunk contest and ASG.
 

benhogan

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One thing I’m keeping a close eye on is the Jaylen on, Tatum off numbers. It’s down to +5.5 on CTG, and +6.5 on Pbpstats, which is still really good, but it’s been falling hard for a couple of months now. The time off over the next week should be good for him, even with the dunk contest and ASG.
CJM can run White + KP with Jaylen to boost those Tatum Off #s.

Agree that JB needs the AS break. His +/- has taken a hit recently due to a combo of spotty shooting & jogging back on D.
Long season, expect he'll be good to go by the playoffs.
 

Ed Hillel

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I want Jaylen to keep taking C&S threes, as it’s a shot we’ll need him to hit in the playoffs, but god damn it has just abandoned him the last few years. It’s at 34.2% this season, slightly ahead of his pull-ups which are at 33.8%. Just to the eye, it’s one of the flatter threes in the league. Was hoping lethal shooter helped this past summer, but he’s had really mixed results throughout the league.

One thing I’m keeping a close eye on is the Jaylen on, Tatum off numbers. It’s down to +5.5 on CTG, and +6.5 on Pbpstats, which is still really good, but it’s been falling hard for a couple of months now. The time off over the next week should be good for him, even with the dunk contest and ASG.
His AST/TO ratio is falling fast, too. The game has sped up for him again when he handles, he looks more like the Jaylen of old. He's dribbling himself into trouble on some occasions , and hesitating and not attacking the rim when he does have a lane. I'm not sure if it's a confidence thing or what, but hopefully the ASB works as a reset. As of now, his overall stats are pretty much in line with what we've seen the past few years, with overall better AST/TO being offset by his falling 3p and ft percentages.

I do think his D has been better overall, though.
 

Auger34

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I want Jaylen to keep taking C&S threes, as it’s a shot we’ll need him to hit in the playoffs, but god damn it has just abandoned him the last few years. It’s at 34.2% this season, slightly ahead of his pull-ups which are at 33.8%. Just to the eye, it’s one of the flatter threes in the league. Was hoping lethal shooter helped this past summer, but he’s had really mixed results throughout the league.

One thing I’m keeping a close eye on is the Jaylen on, Tatum off numbers. It’s down to +5.5 on CTG, and +6.5 on Pbpstats, which is still really good, but it’s been falling hard for a couple of months now. The time off over the next week should be good for him, even with the dunk contest and ASG.
Players go through slumps, it’s a long season. Not worried at all about Jaylen, I think that Tatum off number will go up too
 

RorschachsMask

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Players go through slumps, it’s a long season. Not worried at all about Jaylen, I think that Tatum off number will go up too
It’s a multiple season long slump though.

This season: 34.2%
Last season: 33.4%

That’s just catch and shoot, which is concerning, as they are the good looks.

I’d be very surprised if the Tatum off court numbers ended up higher than it is now, just because +5.5 or +6.5 is still a really good number. It was held up pretty pretty unsustainable opponent shooting numbers earlier in the season. I also expect them to rest KP quite a bit down the stretch, which will be a contributing factor to their numbers when Tatum sits.

I’m not really worried about Jaylen, but I am concerned about his three ball in the playoffs.
 

Euclis20

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He's getting the night off tonight, so either he's a banged up or they want to rest him. Basically the same thing in either case.
Out due to right shoulder contusion. I'm sure it's nothing, but I can't be the only one wondering if he bruised his shoulder practicing for the dunk contest.

78158
 

DavidTai

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Out due to right shoulder contusion. I'm sure it's nothing, but I can't be the only one wondering if he bruised his shoulder practicing for the dunk contest.
I thought he might have twinged something when he was tangled up with Duncan Robinson, but don't recall anything from yesterday.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Just heard this on Forsberg's pod, but JB told Abie a couple of days ago that this will be the first dunk contest he's ever been in. Was surprised to hear that. All the more reason to root for him.
 

radsoxfan

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His AST/TO ratio is falling fast, too. The game has sped up for him again when he handles, he looks more like the Jaylen of old. He's dribbling himself into trouble on some occasions , and hesitating and not attacking the rim when he does have a lane.
I was assured by many that Jaylen has turned the corner, unlocked something, and is a new player with better vision/playmaking this year….

He’s the same dude. Great player, happy he is on the team. Same strengths and weaknesses.

Hopefully the roster around him has improved enough to get us over the hump. But Jaylen is what he is.
 

Euclis20

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I was assured by many that Jaylen has turned the corner, unlocked something, and is a new player with better vision/playmaking this year….

He’s the same dude. Great player, happy he is on the team. Same strengths and weaknesses.

Hopefully the roster around him has improved enough to get us over the hump. But Jaylen is what he is.
The biggest difference with him seems to just be mindset, specifically he seems to always alway always look to attack in transition (even off of made baskets), and the entire team tends to look for him when he's ahead of them running up the court. The rest of his game seems to be largely the same, which is more than fine because the additions of KP and Holiday added two more shotmakers far more varied and efficient than Smart/Horford, and White has taken a pretty sizable leap forward this year too.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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The biggest difference with him seems to just be mindset, specifically he seems to always alway always look to attack in transition (even off of made baskets), and the entire team tends to look for him when he's ahead of them running up the court. The rest of his game seems to be largely the same, which is more than fine because the additions of KP and Holiday added two more shotmakers far more varied and efficient than Smart/Horford, and White has taken a pretty sizable leap forward this year too.
I agree there have been some adjustments in his mindset and the statistics reflect this. JB has gone from 0.097 Assists/Min to 0.11 Assists/Min, and ratio of 3-pt attempts/2-pt attempts from 0.354 to 0.329. And based on the apparent chemistry between JB and Kristaps, it seems this is at least partially intentional. JB is helping get KP numerous open 3-points off of PnR actions.
 

lovegtm

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His total assist number and assist/tov are still right where they were when people were happy a month or two ago. The rates and ratio are also better than any point in his career, by a good margin.

Imo people just remember Jaylen turnovers more, because of Miami G7 PTSD.

The strides he's made on both ends also reflect in the on/off numbers: you can pair him with 1-2 other starters, and you get a very strong net rating. That had not been the case in his career prior to this year. Obviously the Celtics are deeper, and the other players are a better fit, but the Cs haven't been slouches the past few years.

I know DARKO doesn't love him, but there's enough evidence in this case to not get too wound up with one metric imo.

The real test will be whether the Celtics move him in the next 1-2 years. Brad is anything but sentimental, Jaylen has strong trade value, and so if they keep him, that tells you what they think.

I don't pretend to know how they evaluate him. I think he's improved this year, but I was heavily on team "trade Jaylen in 2024/25" when the season started.
 

benhogan

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Brown missing the 40/50 point wins vs. Memphis/Bklyn has crushed his On-Off (-7.7)*, which probably feeds right into DARKO.

I'm going to enjoy JB this season, but wouldn't be shocked if Brad values KP/White fit with Tatum more.
Jrue's 3pt shooting is starting to become a bigger part of the offense, and I expect a ~$30MM/yr extension for Holiday in April.

I hope Wyc receives the benefits of paying massive taxes with an asset value increase.

*BRef #, not CTG
 

bigq

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Personally I hope the Brown-KP bromance continues to play out in Boston for another five years or so including multiple championships.