Jaylen Brown re-signs for 4 years/$115 million

lovegtm

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Which superstars, other than Giannis, would you really trade JB for and who have a chance of being available? One thing about JB - his ability to guard 4s (and sometimes 5s) really makes this team work.

We've discussed KAT.

I'm a hard pass for either Embiid or Simmons, but that's just me. Lillard wouldn't work the way BOS's roster is currently constructed.

Anyone I'm missing?
I’d definitely do Simmons: He and Tatum together would give you a conference finals floor pretty much every year. The fit is infinitely better than Simmons with Embiid. Imagine Simmons being the guy who catches the pass from Tatum out of a double team...

Not happening barring crazy stuff in Philly, but that thought makes things happen in my pants.
 

benhogan

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I know you weren't advocating such a trade, but if Danny traded Brown for Bradley Beal, I would wake up tomorrow morning say "why?". Maybe Brown gets traded at some point, as I agree he's a potentially attractive trade chip. However, I'd be curious what people think you could actually get for him that would make sense for the Celtics. As you noted, it's hard to see anyone right now.

As for Kemba, you could really only trade him to a contender where he would be happy. You don't trade high profile free agent signings to teams about to undergo a lengthy rebuild, unless it's in the final year as an expiring. So, yes, it could make sense, but it would be much harder to find a trading partner given those constraints. Unless you trade him for Anthony Davis (sorry, couldn't resist).
as far as Jaylen Brown fake trade exercise/thoughts, I was kicking around Turner or Sabonis last summer. So while Sabonis is leaping/All-Star. I wouldn't offer JB for either now. (I offer my mea culpa on that)

1. The value of wings is way too great relative to the nose-diving prices of classic 5s
2. Jaylen is leaping and not slowing down. As his role is more defined, the better he'll get.
3. Jaylen can play the 4 now and will be a future 5. This will limit Tatum having to play under the rim (and play his +++ perimeter/weakside help defense).
4. Jaylen is not a ball-dominant offensive player which compliments Tatum and Kemba
5. Great attitude. It's been said numerous times that he adjusted to his role last year quicker than any other Celtic (while being the most screwed). Clearly he was the "young player" that Kyrie lectured, just the fact he took on that prick adds to his legacy in my book.
6. My ultimate lineup: Tatum/Brown with 3 other WINGS that can shoot/defend any position
 
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the moops

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I have to step away from this thread. Trading Jaylen Brown for Beal or KAT? I wouldn't do those moves straight up, unless they came with a top 3 pick in a loaded draft class, and even then, I'd seriously consider not doing it.
You certainly do need to step away from this thread with this sizzling take.

KAT is perhaps the most offensively gifted big man ever. BOS would have to attach a top 3 pick in a loaded draft to even get into the conversation
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I know it's a different thread, but I also don't see Hayward anxious to leave town just to play for the Knicks or Magic, and he is never, ever going to be Kyrie's teammate in Brooklyn; that bridge is beyond burned in both directions. His market isn't hurt that much by playing for another year with the Celtics if it comes to that. But we don't really know how he really feels, so time will tell.
I hate to sound like a broken record but GH has made $150M in his career and the last time he hit free agency, he spoke to exactly three teams: UT, MIA, and BOS. He wants to play for a contender; as this retrospective article points out, last time he only visited teams with elite coaches; and my guess he wants to have a comfort zone with any team he plays with.

Not sure what team that would be but it sure isn't NYK or ORL or ATL. Etc.
 

lovegtm

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You certainly do need to step away from this thread with this sizzling take.

KAT is perhaps the most offensively gifted big man ever. BOS would have to attach a top 3 pick in a loaded draft to even get into the conversation
I would trade Jaylen for KAT, but I don’t think people fully have internalized how bad KAT is defensively, both on film and statistically. He’s in his 5th year, and he’s giving it all back on the defensive end with almost no improvement there since his rookie year.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I’d definitely do Simmons: He and Tatum together would give you a conference finals floor pretty much every year. The fit is infinitely better than Simmons with Embiid. Imagine Simmons being the guy who catches the pass from Tatum out of a double team...

Not happening barring crazy stuff in Philly, but that thought makes things happen in my pants.
Yeah, but the problem is that everytime JT did one of his moves to get into the paint, he'd run into Simmons' defender.

I can understand the argument for trading JB for Simmons - I mean Simmons is so freaking gifted at basketball - but I wouldn't do it.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, but the problem is that everytime JT did one of his moves to get into the paint, he'd run into Simmons' defender.

I can understand the argument for trading JB for Simmons - I mean Simmons is so freaking gifted at basketball - but I wouldn't do it.
Not if Simmons were the roll man. The pairing with Embiid has really hurt perceptions of Simmons: imagine if Giannis and Embiid played together, without much shooting. They’d both be great, but there would be a ton more frustration for Giannis than he has now.

The only trick is that to make this work, you’d need a 5 who could shoot, or else small lineups with someone like Grant at the 5 and switching everything.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I have to step away from this thread. Trading Jaylen Brown for Beal or KAT? I wouldn't do those moves straight up, unless they came with a top 3 pick in a loaded draft class, and even then, I'd seriously consider not doing it. Brown is the perfect, absolutely perfect compliment for Tatum. They seem to genuinely like each other, and their games flow off each other beautifully. I think Jaylen's defense gets ignored way too much. The guy is so young, and just getting better and better and he's under contract for 4 years. I can understand moving Gordon, or even Kemba, but IMO, JT and JB need to be the pieces that you build the franchise around for the next decade. I'm so tired about worrying about whether or not guys are going to fit into the team, if their chemistry will be good, etc. We've now seemingly gotten past that and we want trade away one of our core players for a marginal (if even that) upgrade? No, just no.
Yeah, at this point I think you have to look at Jaylen as a cost controlled asset. And I think he’s a good fit for the Celtics, both in his ability to be a sidekick for Tatum, and his ability to guard at least 4 positions.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah, but the problem is that everytime JT did one of his moves to get into the paint, he'd run into Simmons' defender.

I can understand the argument for trading JB for Simmons - I mean Simmons is so freaking gifted at basketball - but I wouldn't do it.
I agree with this too. Even if Simmons is a better player, the spacing problems that he introduces are real.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Kind of amazing that when Brown was drafted there was a lot of negative reaction and now here we are arguing whether he's the best player in his draft class.

We arguably got the best player 2 years in a row. That's something.
 

the moops

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Kind of amazing that when Brown was drafted there was a lot of negative reaction and now here we are arguing whether he's the best player in his draft class.

We arguably got the best player 2 years in a row. That's something.
Jaylen Brown is a very good basketball player. But he is not the best player in the 2016 draft class. it's not particualry close either I dont think.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Jaylen Brown is a very good basketball player. But he is not the best player in the 2016 draft class. it's not particualry close either I dont think.
Well, you have people in this thread saying they wouldn't trade him for Ben Simmons. If that's the case...
 

NomarsFool

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Kind of amazing that when Brown was drafted there was a lot of negative reaction and now here we are arguing whether he's the best player in his draft class.

We arguably got the best player 2 years in a row. That's something.
You must have forgotten about Yabusele :)
 

NomarsFool

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Trading within the division is of course quite challenging, but what about Kemba for Simmons? I'd think that would make Philly better. I think it would give Boston a really young and talented core.
 

lovegtm

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Kind of amazing that when Brown was drafted there was a lot of negative reaction and now here we are arguing whether he's the best player in his draft class.

We arguably got the best player 2 years in a row. That's something.
Just wait until Langford leapfrogs most of the 2019 class...

Basically Danny needs a hallucinated voice that yells at him in the draft room if he’s ever thinking of drafting a guy who isn’t an long athletic wing.
 

lexrageorge

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Jaylen Brown is a very good basketball player. But he is not the best player in the 2016 draft class. it's not particualry close either I dont think.
Ben Simmons is clearly the best player from that draft, but there are fit issues with his game for some teams.

Sabonis and Siakam are in the next tier; Brown should get there, but I can see arguments either way as to whether he is there yet. He is way better than Ingram, who was considered to be the silver prize in a "2-man draft". I'm sure the Murray, Hield, and Brogdon fans will shoot me soon.
 

Deathofthebambino

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You certainly do need to step away from this thread with this sizzling take.

KAT is perhaps the most offensively gifted big man ever. BOS would have to attach a top 3 pick in a loaded draft to even get into the conversation
Sure, he's a great offensive player (although I'm not sure I'd say the most gifted ever, that's a bold statement), but are the C's struggling offensively? They are 8th in the NBA offensively by PPG, and 4th defensively, and 4th in differential. KAT comes in and completely changes the offense, takes away shots from Tatum and Kemba and whoever else is on the floor with him, and he's a Kanter-like sieve defensively. I just don't know where the upside is to giving up Jaylen Brown for him....KAT's game has been moving further and further from the basket. He's averaging 7.9 3 point attempts per game this season, up from 4.6 last year which was his career high. He's taking less than 10 shots a game inside the arc.

Don't get me wrong, I like KAT, I just don't see how he helps this team, but I can certainly see ways he would hurt them. How many top 5 wings (and I think Tatum is getting there quickly) have played with a dominant big man? Shaq and Kobe, until that blew up. I just don't see how KAT's game compliments Tatum's in a way that's better than Brown's.
 

lovegtm

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Trading within the division is of course quite challenging, but what about Kemba for Simmons? I'd think that would make Philly better. I think it would give Boston a really young and talented core.
Philly never does this in a million years (although arguably some of the stuff Brand has done as GM gets close to this ballpark of bad.)
 

Deathofthebambino

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Ben Simmons is clearly the best player from that draft, but there are fit issues with his game for some teams.
There's also the whole "Can't play him late in a close game in the playoffs with that 59% free throw shooting." Ben Simmons is a great basketball player, with a fatal flaw, IMO. When he's going downhill, he's as good as anyone not named Russell Westbrook, IMO, but damn, just lay off the guy at the three point line, force the ball out of his hands and when he does get a head of steam, foul him and give up the single free throw he'll make....
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sure, he's a great offensive player (although I'm not sure I'd say the most gifted ever, that's a bold statement), but are the C's struggling offensively? They are 8th in the NBA offensively by PPG, and 4th defensively, and 4th in differential. KAT comes in and completely changes the offense, takes away shots from Tatum and Kemba and whoever else is on the floor with him, and he's a Kanter-like sieve defensively. I just don't know where the upside is to giving up Jaylen Brown for him....KAT's game has been moving further and further from the basket. He's averaging 7.9 3 point attempts per game this season, up from 4.6 last year which was his career high. He's taking less than 10 shots a game inside the arc.

Don't get me wrong, I like KAT, I just don't see how he helps this team, but I can certainly see ways he would hurt them. How many top 5 wings (and I think Tatum is getting there quickly) have played with a dominant big man? Shaq and Kobe, until that blew up. I just don't see how KAT's game compliments Tatum's in a way that's better than Brown's.
He's shooting the 3 at a 41% clip. Complaining about his 7.9 3PA is a funny thing to complain about in 2020.

Regarding his defense, I think he wouldn't be as bad in Boston but others may disagree.
 

lovegtm

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He's shooting the 3 at a 41% clip. Complaining about his 7.9 3PA is a funny thing to complain about in 2020.

Regarding his defense, I think he wouldn't be as bad in Boston but others may disagree.
Yeah, the defense would require a lot of due diligence. As noted above, I don’t see a way it really becomes relevant wrt Jaylen, just because of their contract lengths matching up.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Ben Simmons is clearly the best player from that draft, but there are fit issues with his game for some teams.
I'm not saying this is true, but if Simmons is better in an ideal situation but Brown is better in all other situations, is Simmons really better? Shouldn't it count against him? Instead of being able to sign or draft the best player available, you have to go with best fit which could make the team worse overall. How many players that have had to be "built around" actually won titles?

Personally, I don't think many teams would have a hard time fitting Simmons into their lineup and that Philly is a "bad" situation for him, never mind ideal.
 

Kliq

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When it comes to flipping a wing for a center, I think you have to look at what teams have won the championship recently (or even advanced far into the Finals) and how many of those teams did that with a center as one of their top two players. In a vacuum, Towns is probably a better player than Jaylen, but you win in the NBA with wings and guards and cheap bigs.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Because Love was better defensively?

/winks and ducks ;)
I honestly don't know. So much of is team and system that it's hard to tell. What metrics are you using that have Love better defensively anyway?

Lets use Kanter. He's bad defensively but he hasn't been nearly as bad as we thought he would be. Is it because he improved over the summer or is it because he's in a different system and with different players?

Plus, say whatever you want about Love KAT, he has the physical tools to play defense. Brandon Ingram does too. If they ever do, oh boy.
 

lovegtm

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I honestly don't know. So much of is team and system that it's hard to tell. What metrics are you using that have Love better defensively anyway?

Lets use Kanter. He's bad defensively but he hasn't been nearly as bad as we thought he would be. Is it because he improved over the summer or is it because he's in a different system and with different players?

Plus, say whatever you want about Love, he has the physical tools to play defense. Brandon Ingram does too. If they ever do, oh boy.
Yeah, I don’t have a strong position here since I don’t know yet how KAT would look in a functional environment. What I do know is that if you watch his tape currently, you see a guy who processes the defensive game mentally way too slowly to be even a decent defender. (not saying he’s a
dumb guy, purely basketball).

The $200M question if he ever comes on the market is whether that can change in the right system.
 

Deathofthebambino

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He's shooting the 3 at a 41% clip. Complaining about his 7.9 3PA is a funny thing to complain about in 2020.

Regarding his defense, I think he wouldn't be as bad in Boston but others may disagree.
I'm not complaining about his 3 point shooting, I'm just wondering how it fits here? It's not like the C's without Jaylen are going to be struggling to find guys who can shoot the 3. I don't really understand how a big, who is playing like a wing now, helps the C's more than a wing, who can play 4 positions on defense. KAT's a great offensive player, but so was Kyrie, and it didn't work. I think a guy like Theis offers just as much to the C's current roster as a guy like KAT would when factoring in defense, and not having to give him 18 shots a game that need to come from guys like Tatum and Kemba. If KAT were playing like a true big, and shooting closer to 55% from the field, instead of the 50% he's shooting now because he's taking so many outside shots, I think the equation is different, but a Jaylen who can shoot close to 50% from the outside, while also playing second or third fiddle to the superstars seems like the better option to me.

If we were having a draft tomorrow, I'd absolutely take KAT over Jaylen if i were starting a team, but we're not starting a team, we're adding to one. Subtracting Jaylen and adding KAT just doesn't seem like it adds value, and if we're talking about giving up other assets in addition, it seems crazy.

I also fully admit I'm a biased Jaylen fanboy, and I won't apologize for it. Ever.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not complaining about his 3 point shooting, I'm just wondering how it fits here? It's not like the C's without Jaylen are going to be struggling to find guys who can shoot the 3. I don't really understand how a big, who is playing like a wing now, helps the C's more than a wing, who can play 4 positions on defense. KAT's a great offensive player, but so was Kyrie, and it didn't work. I think a guy like Theis offers just as much to the C's current roster as a guy like KAT would when factoring in defense, and not having to give him 18 shots a game that need to come from guys like Tatum and Kemba. If KAT were playing like a true big, and shooting closer to 55% from the field, instead of the 50% he's shooting now because he's taking so many outside shots, I think the equation is different, but a Jaylen who can shoot close to 50% from the outside, while also playing second or third fiddle to the superstars seems like the better option to me.

If we were having a draft tomorrow, I'd absolutely take KAT over Jaylen if i were starting a team, but we're not starting a team, we're adding to one. Subtracting Jaylen and adding KAT just doesn't seem like it adds value, and if we're talking about giving up other assets in addition, it seems crazy.

I also fully admit I'm a biased Jaylen fanboy, and I won't apologize for it. Ever.
That line of thinking is really wrong and you are punishing him for his 3 point shooting. His 2pt FG% is .586. A 3pt % of .411 is equivalent to shooting .617. His eFG% is 60% which is much better than the 55% you want him to shoot from the field. It's like you want him to be less efficient so his overall FG% can go up.
 

lovegtm

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His 18 shots would come from Jaylen's 15 and Kanter's 6. Not from Tatum or Kemba
Yeah, the idea of shots “coming from” someone is always so weird. It’s like when a guy goes out and people wonder who will “replace” his X points per night.

Just stop worrying and learn to love offenses as ecosystems.
 

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Siakam would be an interesting swap. I think his length and shooting would fit in great for the C's. He certainly has better advanced stats than JB. Not that I'm interested in trading JB, just thinking of guys who would be a good fit.
 

lovegtm

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Siakam would be an interesting swap. I think his length and shooting would fit in great for the C's. He certainly has better advanced stats than JB. Not that I'm interested in trading JB, just thinking of guys who would be a good fit.
Toronto isn’t doing that, because they’re getting the worse version of the same player and similar contract.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Siakam would be an interesting swap. I think his length and shooting would fit in great for the C's. He certainly has better advanced stats than JB. Not that I'm interested in trading JB, just thinking of guys who would be a good fit.
Not sure why Toronto would do that, but I'd do that in a heartbeat instead of KAT.
 

NomarsFool

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I also don't think Minnesota is moving KAT. They just brought in his best buddy so that he'll be happier while they miss the playoffs for the next ten years.

I think having two young wings is a great foundation to build on. I think the more interesting question is what do they put around them? Hopefully, Kemba's knee is not a big deal - but I am a wee bit concerned that he is having these issues so early in his max contract.
 

Jimbodandy

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It's always interesting when KAT comes up.

It's a fair point that most people improve defensively under Stevens. But we're ascribing too much lift to people, based on what guys like Baynes and Kanter have done here (two recent examples). Part of why those guys thrive(d) is because CBS is only playing them in advantageous situations generally. If you only have EK on the floor against lineups that won't eat him for lunch, and you coach him up, and he works at it, then he's not a black hole. When you can't hide KAT's 35mpg, and the net rating tanks like this weeks DOW because he lacks the ability and the inclination to even pretend to defend, CBS looks a lot less like Obi Wan.
 

benhogan

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It's always interesting when KAT comes up.

It's a fair point that most people improve defensively under Stevens. But we're ascribing too much lift to people, based on what guys like Baynes and Kanter have done here (two recent examples). Part of why those guys thrive(d) is because CBS is only playing them in advantageous situations generally. If you only have EK on the floor against lineups that won't eat him for lunch, and you coach him up, and he works at it, then he's not a black hole. When you can't hide KAT's 35mpg, and the net rating tanks like this weeks DOW because he lacks the ability and the inclination to even pretend to defend, CBS looks a lot less like Obi Wan.
This is a good point and is why looking at players in a vacuum is not a good idea. Brad is very good at taking a player's strengths and playing to them while hiding their weaknesses.

Kanter 2nd unit/Theis starting is a very underrated CBS move this season. Hopefully, a healthy TL can add another arrow to CBS' quiver.

KAT is an offensive savant, but 5s are going to be so damn cheap, Brad/Danny can create an efficient 3-headed Center for half the cost. You just can't extract that kind of value at the wing position. As we all know that's important when building teams with a stringent cap.

I'd expect the Celtics to not dedicate much present or future cap to 5s.
as lovegtm noted, KAT is not happening anyways
 
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nighthob

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They’re being a little over the top, sure. But the relevant point is that centers no longer have the value they once did. If KATman ever really busted hump and dominated defensively, that would be one thing, but he’s shown no inclinations in that regard ever. Like ever.

So the question is are you better off with a physically dominant wing that can give you defense 1-5 while being one of the best opportunistic scorers in the league or a center that’s shown no real talent or stomach for defense?

As for Beal, he’d be fine in the Kemba Walker role, but Boston already has Kemba. You really can’t start a backcourt that small. The modern ideal is long, versatile, athletic wings. None of which describes Beal. Now, if they could have gotten him instead of Kemba last summer (say the Kings had been awful, they had a top pick in ‘19 and the Memphis pick in hand), that would have been useful. But they didn’t.

All in all Boston’s in a good spot, and there’s no need to seriously downgrade the defense for marginal upgrades to a top 10 offense.
 

DJnVa

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And? Why is it so heretical to ever think about trading your good players who aren’t superstars?

It doesn’t mean it’s the right move, or that the right player will come available, but it absolutely has to be discussed.

The reasons we like all of those guys are the reasons they have value.
I didn't say it's heretical.

I just find it amusing that we seem to have again built a team on the cusp of being title contender if not already there and we're talking about trading guys. It seems like talk for the offseason or if we were out of the playoff hunt.
 

benhogan

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All in all Boston’s in a good spot, and there’s no need to seriously downgrade the defense for marginal upgrades to a top 10 offense.
This... in a nutshell.

Fake trades are always a fun exercise, but Jaylen is the wrong hombre.

Minor stuff on the edges and dealing with the Hayward situation this summer is where we'll possibly see some movement.
 

TripleOT

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It's a wing league. I'm not looking to trade Jaylen. He and Tatum perfectly complement each other.

If KAT was available straight up, I'd have to look hard at it, but I can see multiple Finals appearances with the Jays as they mature.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Another big check Jaylen's column v. KAT (which also applied to Klay v. Love): while predicting injury and longevity is always a bit of fool's errand — and knocking wood — guys built like Jaylen tend to hold up much better over a 10-15 year career, 75-80 games a year plus playoffs, than guys built like Towns. The best ability is availability, as they say. Towns was extremely durable his first three NBA seasons, but he's also 6-11 260+, with a body type that looks a lot closer to Embiid than to Giannis.
 
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lovegtm

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So I wake up and check Twitter/forums, and the narrative is that a Brown midranger was the wrong shot to end the game? That’s literally one of the best shots you’ll get in that situation from one of the better midrange guys in the league.
 

benhogan

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“We still have another level we can go to,” Brown said. “Tonight we fell short, but it's another good learning lesson, another great game for us to build off of and learn.”

This is the perfect attitude from Jaylen. CBS and the team can take a lot away from this game over the next two days in the video room.
 

lovegtm

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“We still have another level we can go to,” Brown said. “Tonight we fell short, but it's another good learning lesson, another great game for us to build off of and learn.”

This is the perfect attitude from Jaylen. CBS and the team can take a lot away from this game over the next two days in the video room.
I think they’ll see a lot they could do offensively against switching defenses. They needed to be a lot more decisive in deciding which switches they wanted to attack on the perimeter and engineering those early. Houston is a team that does a great job of this actually.

At the same time, I’m not sure how much film you need to reinforce “caring = good for rebounding.”
 

benhogan

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I think they’ll see a lot they could do offensively against switching defenses. They needed to be a lot more decisive in deciding which switches they wanted to attack on the perimeter and engineering those early. Houston is a team that does a great job of this actually.

At the same time, I’m not sure how much film you need to reinforce “caring = good for rebounding.”
UGH, a few odd bounces on those rebounds. During the game it's so annoying. It felt like JB gaffed a few of those??? But I may be wrong, it was hard to tell from ABC's camera angles.

If we're going to get hung up on the outcome, W/L (which we should for seeding), then it's as simple as Kemba's health. I have all kinds of colorful thoughts:mad: about All-Star games(USA BBall), that I'd rather not share since people are still excited about FTAs at the end of a fukn exhibition game.