Jarren Duran: Today We Like Him

martybarrettoverdrive

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Cora gonna let him get booed. Let the fans be the ones who tell him he done bad.
If that is indeed his reasoning, he has seemingly shifted disciplinary responsibility first to the players and now the fans. Cora’s player-friendly style has certainly reaped benefits at times with earlier rosters and seasons. But this is showcasing a worrisome weakness in that approach and perhaps a lack of flexibility and overall thoughtfulness of Cora’s managerial philosophy.
 

chawson

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The best thing to do right now is to let other teams see Duran play. He's never been an easy fit on this team and should be front-and-center for trade talks right now. Benching him does't help that cause.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I think the more Duran plays, the lower his value gets…..and if he’s not a fit on a team whose 2023 OF depth chart is Verdugo, Cordero, Refsnyder….who exactly is he a fit on? Right now, he’s looking like a prospect they held on to too long.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Per the game thread, Jaylin Davis on his way to Boston. 247/336/404 in AAA this year. His 0.2 bWAR this season ranks 3rd among Sox OF, behind only Refsnyder (0.9) and Kiki (0.3).
 

chawson

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I think the more Duran plays, the lower his value gets…..and if he’s not a fit on a team whose 2023 OF depth chart is Verdugo, Cordero, Refsnyder….who exactly is he a fit on? Right now, he’s looking like a prospect they held on to too long.
I mean that he's not a fit because he only plays left field and we already have an outfield who can only play left field (by his preference), and anyway the Sox should never staff a noodle bat in that outfield position because we need to staff defense-first guys in the other two. Very much yes to the "held on too long" part.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I mean that he's not a fit because he only plays left field and we already have an outfield who can only play left field (by his preference), and anyway the Sox should never staff a noodle bat in that outfield position because we need to staff defense-first guys in the other two. Very much yes to the "held on too long" part.
I don't know how they held on to him too long unless you wanted them to trade him this past off season after a terrible Major league showing. He wasn't a prospect prior to last year so he needed last year to establish his value at the very least.

There wasn't a very long sell high period.
 

chawson

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I don't know how they held on to him too long unless you wanted them to trade him this past off season after a terrible Major league showing. He wasn't a prospect prior to last year so he needed last year to establish his value at the very least.
He had an enormous amount of hype last June and July before his 7/15 call-up. He was #29 in Baseball America's midseason rankings in late June, and FanGraphs' midseason prospect report had him at #55. The BTV site had him valued around 40 or so, which is twice where's at now.

No idea what kind of offers might have been on the table, but I think he had a ton of value then. He ranked higher on BA's list than the top prospect moved at the deadline, Josiah Gray.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He had an enormous amount of hype last June and July before his 7/15 call-up. He was #29 in Baseball America's midseason rankings in late June, and FanGraphs' midseason prospect report had him at #55. The BTV site had him valued around 40 or so, which is twice where's at now.

No idea what kind of offers might have been on the table, but I think he had a ton of value then. He ranked higher on BA's list than the top prospect moved at the deadline, Josiah Gray.
So they had a window of about a month. Hard to say they held on to him too long. I guess they could have chose to never call him up and traded him then or at the end of the '21 season but meh.
 

chawson

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So they had a window of about a month. Hard to say they held on to him too long.
Sorry, what are you arguing? That the Sox could not have traded a prospect hitting well in AAA at the deadline last year?

A lot of people saw Duran as the CF heir apparent and I get that, though I did not.

At this point, the best CF option in 2023 is Kiké. Could be a silver lining after his lost season. Give him a one-year deal around $8M and hope he rebounds to something close to his excellent 2021. You’re not gonna find another center fielder with reliably good defense and offensive upside on the free agent market. We’re just biding our time for Miguel Bleis.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sorry, what are you arguing? That the Sox could not have traded a prospect hitting well in AAA at the deadline last year?

A lot of people saw Duran as the CF heir apparent and I get that, though I did not.
That the window to trade him at peak value wasn't very long. I doubt he's worth any less now than he was at the start of the year. If you want to get all up in arms about the Red Sox not trading Duran in a 1 month window, I guess they held on to him too long.

He's not Blake Swihart. Duran was an afterthought going into 2021.
 

chawson

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That the window to trade him at peak value wasn't very long. I doubt he's worth any less now than he was at the start of the year. If you want to get all up in arms about the Red Sox not trading Duran in a 1 month window, I guess they held on to him too long.

He's not Blake Swihart. Duran was an afterthought going into 2021.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Duran had been in the organization several years. He was ranked just outside the BA top 100 prospects before the 2021 season and vaulted up the rankings by June. It seems perfectly reasonable to have traded him in July, or again last offseason.
 

Ale Xander

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That the window to trade him at peak value wasn't very long. I doubt he's worth any less now than he was at the start of the year. If you want to get all up in arms about the Red Sox not trading Duran in a 1 month window, I guess they held on to him too long.

He's not Blake Swihart. Duran was an afterthought going into 2021.
How long does it have to be to be long enough?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don’t know what you’re talking about. Duran had been in the organization several years. He was ranked just outside the BA top 100 prospects before the 2021 season and vaulted up the rankings by June. It seems perfectly reasonable to have traded him in July, or again last offseason.
Yeah, and no one really cared about him prior to 2021. When was he at peak value? Do you think he's worth less now than he was at the end of 2019? Do you think he's worth less than he was at the beginning of 2022?
 

chawson

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Yeah, and no one really cared about him prior to 2021. When was he at peak value? Do you think he's worth less now than he was at the end of 2019? Do you think he's worth less than he was at the beginning of 2022?
The pandemic’s effect on the 2020 minor league season is a big factor here. But yes, there was a good amount of helium about him at the alternate site during 2020, and it’s clear he was at peak value (so far) last summer, per several prospect rankings.

I don’t know why you’re stressing this “month” window. His value had skyrocketed last summer, which is not unusual for prospects moved at the trade deadline — and it’s a special case after scouts couldn’t see him at all in 2020. His value is surely much lower now, so yes I’d say they held on to him too long.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The pandemic’s effect on the 2020 minor league season is a big factor here. But yes, there was a good amount of helium about him at the alternate site during 2020, and it’s clear he was at peak value (so far) last summer, per several prospect rankings.

I don’t know why you’re stressing this “month” window. His value had skyrocketed last summer, which is not unusual for prospects moved at the trade deadline — and it’s a special case after scouts couldn’t see him at all in 2020. His value is surely much lower now, so yes I’d say they held on to him too long.
I totally disagree. He is worth far more now than he was in 2020.

You don't even disagree with the month window unless you want to say "summer" but his value plummeted after his debut. You even said his peak value was last summer. Do you think it was all of last summer? Do you think he retained his value after his terrible debut? Do you think he had just as much value on May 4th as July 13th?

His peak value wasn't much longer than a month. How long do you think his peak value window was? From when to when?
 

chawson

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I totally disagree. He is worth far more now than he was in 2020.

You don't even disagree with the month window unless you want to say "summer" but his value plummeted after his debut. You even said his peak value was last summer. Do you think it was all of last summer? Do you think he retained his value after his terrible debut? Do you think he had just as much value on May 4th as July 13th?

His peak value wasn't much longer than a month. How long do you think his peak value window was? From when to when?
Okeydoke, man. Nevermind.
 

Granite Sox

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IMO, starting him today is either a White Flag move by Cora, or an FU to Bloom move by Cora (as in I-don’-have-any-other-option-you-can-shove-it-with-this-roster-Chaim). I just can’t believe that Cora is letting the clubhouse police this rather than stepping in as the manager on what is an acceptable level of play. Start JBJ or Franchy or Refsnyder today (I know Manoah is a righty). It’s nuts that Duran is on the field today.
 

twibnotes

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IMO, starting him today is either a White Flag move by Cora, or an FU to Bloom move by Cora (as in I-don’-have-any-other-option-you-can-shove-it-with-this-roster-Chaim). I just can’t believe that Cora is letting the clubhouse police this rather than stepping in as the manager on what is an acceptable level of play. Start JBJ or Franchy or Refsnyder today (I know Manoah is a righty). It’s nuts that Duran is on the field today.
100 pct

It’s one thing to be a player’s manager. It’s another to be a pushover and drive no accountability. Words alone don’t always work. There needs to be consequences for certain screw ups.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Looking for a silver lining…

Haven’t seen it mentioned but once, parenthetically, by @Archer1979 , but not to be overlooked is Verdugo’s exceptional hustle on the play. Even after all seemed lost, in a game they trailed by 10 runs (or whatever), Verdugo did bust his ass on the play — kept running, executed a slide stop to get the ball and make the fastest play possible, and sent a strong quick accurate throw to the cutoff man.

Verdugo’s certainly not without his flaws as a ballplayer, but he’s easy to root for. I’m glad he’s a Rwd Sox (circumstances notwithstanding).
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Looking for a silver lining…

Haven’t seen it mentioned but once, parenthetically, by @Archer1979 , but not to be overlooked is Verdugo’s exceptional hustle on the play. Even after all seemed lost, in a game they trailed by 10 runs (or whatever), Verdugo did bust his ass on the play — kept running, executed a slide stop to get the ball and make the fastest play possible, and sent a strong quick accurate throw to the cutoff man.

Verdugo’s certainly not without his flaws as a ballplayer, but he’s easy to root for. I’m glad he’s a Rwd Sox (circumstances notwithstanding).
It was 6-0 when the play happened. Still kind of a blowout, but not over. A good effort nonetheless.
 

simplicio

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IMO, starting him today is either a White Flag move by Cora, or an FU to Bloom move by Cora (as in I-don’-have-any-other-option-you-can-shove-it-with-this-roster-Chaim). I just can’t believe that Cora is letting the clubhouse police this rather than stepping in as the manager on what is an acceptable level of play. Start JBJ or Franchy or Refsnyder today (I know Manoah is a righty). It’s nuts that Duran is on the field today.
Alek Manoah this year
VS L: .251 avg, 1.27 WHIP
VS R: .157 avg, 0.68 WHIP

So which lefty did Cora leave on the bench that you'd rather have in?

Or would you rather just reduce their chances of winning today's game because you're mad at him?
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Alek Manoah this year
VS L: .251 avg, 1.27 WHIP
VS R: .157 avg, 0.68 WHIP

So which lefty did Cora leave on the bench that you'd rather have in?

Or would you rather just reduce their chances of winning today's game because you're mad at him?
Isn't Cora supposedly all about playing for the long term? He's never been shy about giving players a day off when he thinks they need rest, whether or not the team is in a losing streak or playing versus the Yankees or whatever. Why would benching a player as a disciplinary move be any different? Yes, such a move might have reduced our chances of winning today slightly, but wouldn't it's purpose be to increase our chances of winning every other day by reducing the likelihood that Duran makes similarly boneheaded plays in the future?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Isn't Cora supposedly all about playing for the long term? He's never been shy about giving players a day off when he thinks they need rest, whether or not the team is in a losing streak or playing versus the Yankees or whatever. Why would benching a player as a disciplinary move be any different? Yes, such a move might have reduced our chances of winning today slightly, but wouldn't it's purpose be to increase our chances of winning every other day by reducing the likelihood that Duran makes similarly boneheaded plays in the future?
And how much does benching him reduce the chance of him making a boneheaded play in the future as opposed to if he's not benched?

He's almost 26 years old. He should be self policing himself.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Isn't Cora supposedly all about playing for the long term? He's never been shy about giving players a day off when he thinks they need rest, whether or not the team is in a losing streak or playing versus the Yankees or whatever. Why would benching a player as a disciplinary move be any different? Yes, such a move might have reduced our chances of winning today slightly, but wouldn't it's purpose be to increase our chances of winning every other day by reducing the likelihood that Duran makes similarly boneheaded plays in the future?
Perhaps Cora is already knows that Duran will be someone else's problem next spring, if not next month.
 

Archer1979

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And how much does benching him reduce the chance of him making a boneheaded play in the future as opposed to if he's not benched?

He's almost 26 years old. He should be self policing himself.
It's not the error. It's the reaction. Yes. He should be self-policing... but he obviously didn't in this case. Thus the need for some level of consequence so he doesn't forget it should the situation repeat itself.
 

Van Everyman

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This is very disappointing to see.

Cora had a chance to demonstrate leadership by showing Duran that neither his effort nor his words were acceptable, and he declined to do so.

While I am well aware that the counter-argument would be not to allow a young player to stew on his mistakes, in my opinion he’s making a mistake here.
You’re not going to like this answer but … the manager knows more than you do.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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It was 6-0 when the play happened. Still kind of a blowout, but not over. A good effort nonetheless.
Well, really 9-0. There’s nothing Duran could have done by hustling to keep the other 3 runs from scoring. Maybe they get Tapia at the plate.
Alek Manoah this year
VS L: .251 avg, 1.27 WHIP
VS R: .157 avg, 0.68 WHIP

So which lefty did Cora leave on the bench that you'd rather have in?

Or would you rather just reduce their chances of winning today's game because you're mad at him?
This was a basic problem, and trying to win against a divisional rival right now has some urgency, so it does explain why Duran played instead of getting benched.

Ideally, from my perspective, Cora would have benched him for a game. But we really don’t know how this was handled internally. It’s possible Duran apologized in the clubhouse after the game, but didn’t want to get into that with the media. We tend to overanalyze and parse these guys‘s words in interviews like they‘re reciting Shakespeare. In most cases, we probably hear/see/know 25% of what’s going on, at most.
 

mauf

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If you were trying to win yesterday’s game above all else, you’d DH Duran and put Refsnyder in CF instead of the other way around, right?

I think Cora wanted Duran to hear it from the fans yesterday.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Well, really 9-0. There’s nothing Duran could have done by hustling to keep the other 3 runs from scoring. Maybe they get Tapia at the plate.
Even if he'd raced to where the ball dropped once he saw it, I'm not sure they would have even had a chance at that. If he gets there first, he has to field it, stand and turn and throw to the cutoff man, and then hope the throw home from the cutoff man is in time. He could have shown more effort, absolutely, but I'm not sure it changes the outcome in any way.
 

NickEsasky

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You’re not going to like this answer but … the manager knows more than you do.
While true Cora also was lamenting the team’s effort during the Rays series. Not worrying about consequences to the player’s actions seems counterintuitive to getting them to play harder.
 

canderson

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If you were trying to win yesterday’s game above all else, you’d DH Duran and put Refsnyder in CF instead of the other way around, right?

I think Cora wanted Duran to hear it from the fans yesterday.
I hope we have a FO and manager that puts winning ahead of letting a player get a message via boos. If that’s true, this franchise is not with following at all with this regime.
 
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mauf

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I hope we have a FO and manager that puts wining ahead of letting a player get a message via boos. If that’s true, this franchise is not with following at all with this regime.
Adopting a slightly disadvantageous defensive posture has less impact on the team’s chances of winning than not playing the best nine guys available, which would be the conventional thing to do — and might have been Cora’s course if JDM didn’t need the day off.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I hope we have a FO and manager that puts wining ahead of letting a player get a message via boos. If that’s true, this franchise is not with following at all with this regime.
And what if the best chance of winning is playing Duran, and as a bonus, he can also get booed?
 

Cesar Crespo

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It's not the error. It's the reaction. Yes. He should be self-policing... but he obviously didn't in this case. Thus the need for some level of consequence so he doesn't forget it should the situation repeat itself.
If the situation should repeat itself, he should no longer be here. I'd like to think he actually does hold himself accountable and wants to succeed. That he is beating himself up over this and won't let it happen again. The guy has definitely put in the work to make it to the Majors. He's not lazy. I don't think effort should be an issue going forward. If it is, he'll be gone.

While I'm not against punishing him, I'm not sure how it actually helps. If he didn't get the message, he's not going to. A benching won't matter. He has to be completely embarrassed.

I think you have to punish no effort.
Why? If it was a trend, definitely. I'm guessing if effort was a problem with Duran, he wouldn't be here.

I'm going to dismiss it as a one off unless/until it happens again.
 

EvilEmpire

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If you have certain standards and expectations with regard to effort level and don't enforce them, you're setting a new standard and expectation for effort level. I suspect Cora and the rest of the coaching staff do have such standards and the enforcement of them just isn't visible to the public.

But either way, it isn't just about Duran. Whatever Cora does or doesn't do is sending a message to his team.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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A very small part of me wonders if Cora played Duran simply to highlight how Bloom has left him with few other options on the roster as it's currently constructed.

I know that's incredibly unlikely and on the level of a typical mouthbreathing Felger & Mazz take, but it would be a total pimp move on Cora's part, which makes me admire it nonetheless, as imagined as it may be.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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A very small part of me wonders if Cora played Duran simply to highlight how Bloom has left him with few other options on the roster as it's currently constructed.

I know that's incredibly unlikely and on the level of a typical mouthbreathing Felger & Mazz take, but it would be a total pimp move on Cora's part, which makes me admire it nonetheless, as imagined as it may be.
I would think that Cora recognizes that he's limited in his options in part because half the roster is on the IL, including his preferred starting CF. It wouldn't be a "pimp" move either, it'd be an immature asshole move. Cora is mature enough to just pick up the phone or walk up the stairs and have a direct conversation with Bloom if he's unhappy with his roster options.
 

Archer1979

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If you have certain standards and expectations with regard to effort level and don't enforce them, you're setting a new standard and expectation for effort level. I suspect Cora and the rest of the coaching staff do have such standards and the enforcement of them just isn't visible to the public.

But either way, it isn't just about Duran. Whatever Cora does or doesn't do is sending a message to his team.
And... he's got to be careful on this point because, if I'm reading the tea-leaves correctly, this team is about to get a LOT younger. You can invoke a different type of discipline with veterans but if the majority of the club is less than three years of MLB service, you have to send a message.
 

Marciano490

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By the way, what’s best practices for an outfielder losing a fly ball? I’d think you’d want to retreat as far back to the wall as possible to keep the ball in front of you and be able to run into the throw, but I haven’t played since high school.