IT to Denver

Jimbodandy

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Every sport minus maybe hockey (I don't follow) has the entitled championship or bust mentality.

Edit: Especially the NBA. You're whole entire worth in the NBA is centered around how many rings you have. KG was a career loser until he got out of Minnesota. DeMarcus Cousins is a bum.
This is nonsense. Fans sometimes go their whole lives without seeing a championship, and yet they somehow find enjoyment in sports. "Everyone who doesn't win a championship sucks" is a crappy way to live. Your choice of course, but it's a bit silly to impose that POV on everyone else.

My first favorite player was Fred Lynn. Guy was a stud in every way. Five tool player starting in his rookie year. I'll always love him for inspiring my love of the game at a young age. No, I don't love him as much as Pedro and Papi. But if you think about it, but for a nice string of clutch performances by Pedro and many of his teammates over a nice four-game stretch in 2004, the greatest pitcher that I ever saw wouldn't have any rings either. If Keith Foulke hangs a pitch to Tony Clark (longest AB of my life), then that was that.

Hanging division championship banners is weak sauce, no doubt. But loving certain players and teams for their effort and the good times that they brought you over the years is totally understandable.
 

lexrageorge

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Oh, so the banner is what makes it different? Sorry but if you celebrate IT4, there is nothing wrong with the Colts celebrating either. If you think there is, it just makes you a hypocrite. Be consistent on your shitty examples.


edit: And yes, if you think the Colts should be embarrassed, you should also be embarrassed for celebrating Ted Williams. Stop being a f'n fan boy and be consistent.

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with celebrating either and that IT4 is closer the the Colts example than the Ted Williams one. Ted Williams is a HOFer. IT4 has spend most of his career coming off the bench. Ted Williams was a redsox lifer. IT4 was here for 2 seasons. But yeah, much better example than mine.
I never realized fans were obligated to show consistency with how they treat players for their team and how they treat opposing teams. Guess we learn something new everyday.
 

Kliq

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There is a difference between a fan base appreciating a playoff run that didn’t end in a championship; and an organization raising a banner (which is traditionally associated specifically with a championship win) for a playoff run that didn’t end in a championship.
 

slamminsammya

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I won't add to the dogpile, but the people claiming there is no real disagreement in this thread have not been reading closely.

I can't wait to celebrate IT. He is one of the most unique basketball players, or even athletes, I have ever seen. His candle burned brightly but so briefly. Like a candle in the wind. Maybe we can get Elton John on his farewell tour to tribute IT.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There is a difference between a fan base appreciating a playoff run that didn’t end in a championship; and an organization raising a banner (which is traditionally associated specifically with a championship win) for a playoff run that didn’t end in a championship.
Every team is different but I agree that when a team has little to no championship aspirations and makes a run it is a special thing.

The irony here with the Isaiah/Antoine discussion is that their playoff track record in Boston is also very similar. A lot of losses and one exciting run to the EC Finals on a team with average overall talent.
 

benhogan

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I won't add to the dogpile, but the people claiming there is no real disagreement in this thread have not been reading closely.

I can't wait to celebrate IT. He is one of the most unique basketball players, or even athletes, I have ever seen. His candle burned brightly but so briefly. Like a candle in the wind. Maybe we can get Elton John on his farewell tour to tribute IT.
Goodbye Lil' Z....

oh FFS, give me a break!

even for SoSH, the sanctimonious hot air flying around this thread is reaching new heights.
 

slamminsammya

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Goodbye Lil' Z....

oh FFS, give me a break!

even for SoSH, the sanctimonious hot air flying around this thread is reaching new heights.
Off topic but google ngrams for "sanctimonious" is fascinating. A steady crescendo leading up to 1861. Then a decline. Then from 1913 until 1932 we see another steady increase in usage. Then it started tailing off. Cool!
 

ifmanis5

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IT interview with Woj:
Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @wojespn 26m26 minutes ago
"Nobody can say that they fight the same battle as me." Isaiah Thomas sits down to discuss Denver, the hip, money and why he called Danny Ainge about returning to the Celtics.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24169163/nba-conversation-isaiah-thomas
"People are scared of my hip now," Thomas says. "I just had to be real with myself. I had to understand that it's not going to be about the money this summer. I've got to show people that I can play -- and play at a high level again. And I will."
Before finalizing the agreement with Denver, Thomas had reached out to Boston GM Danny Ainge. They talked for 15 to 20 minutes, Thomas says, and he told Ainge: "If the opportunity is there, I would just like to let you know that I'd love to come back."

"S---, I'd have gone back," Thomas says. "I don't hold grudges."
 

JCizzle

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TripleOT

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Thomas' agent should try to get his client to stop talking about getting paid. Nobody wants to hear it, including GMs.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Of course he would have come back. He had no other offers until his ex-coach from the Kings kept him in the league for another season out in Denver.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Exactly. He's also still completely unable to accept just how much of a defensive liability he is.
He's delusional about everything. He stated in his recent interview that he deserved a max contract and could have sat out the playoffs and still gotten the max. Ummmm no, I'm pretty sure sitting out the playoffs would be an enormous red flag and be a focus of the physical that he'd surely fail.

Yeah it sucks that he got injured priori to someone paying him but that was what many of us showed typically occurs to the sub-6 foot guard who requires maximum effort for the duration of their time on the floor to compete. Once this type of player loses a step it's over and typically around the age Isaiah is at now.
 

lexrageorge

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Still don't understand why IT inspires such vitriol. He was a delight to watch in his final season here, and he left it all on the floor for the Celtics in return. Are we really bothered by what he says to the press about his contract at this point?
 

Koufax

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Not me. I love the man and have no problem with either his desire to maximize his earnings or his willingness to talk about it. In the end the market is what it is, and he's accepted that reality. I can't blame him for wishing that he'd been more clever about trying to play through injury, but the grit and determination that he demonstrated, and his willingness to bleed green, have made me a fan for life.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Still don't understand why IT inspires such vitriol. He was a delight to watch in his final season here, and he left it all on the floor for the Celtics in return. Are we really bothered by what he says to the press about his contract at this point?
What is amazing is that Thomas unflinching confidence in himself as well as his inability to acknowledge his flaws is precisely why he has been able to carve out a career in the NBA despite a near impossible limitation. He is nowhere as good as he has been if he doesn't believe to his core that he is a star and better than people think, or the metrics show.

I also view his admission that he connected with Ainge as a plus, even if it was desperation as some here think. Grudges in business are bad and limiting.

That said, I understand that the "Brinks truck" comment bothered people. I come down on the side of players vs management even when it results in adverse outcomes for my teams. However I get that people feel otherwise.
 

lexrageorge

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What is amazing is that Thomas unflinching confidence in himself as well as his inability to acknowledge his flaws is precisely why he has been able to carve out a career in the NBA despite a near impossible limitation. He is nowhere as good as he has been if he doesn't believe to his core that he is a star and better than people think, or the metrics show.

I also view his admission that he connected with Ainge as a plus, even if it was desperation as some here think. Grudges in business are bad and limiting.

That said, I understand that the "Brinks truck" comment bothered people. I come down on the side of players vs management even when it results in adverse outcomes for my teams. However I get that people feel otherwise.
Players simply cannot win when it comes to talking about contracts. If they ask for the "Brinks truck", they get blasted, even when the comment is made in a good natured manner. If they say nothing, ala Kyrie, they get criticized for refusing to express their undying loyalty to the team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Players simply cannot win when it comes to talking about contracts. If they ask for the "Brinks truck", they get blasted, even when the comment is made in a good natured manner. If they say nothing, ala Kyrie, they get criticized for refusing to express their undying loyalty to the team.
Cmon now. You really don't think Isaiah could have handled his contract situation MUCH better than he did? Calling out your boss to pay you can't be the best idea in this area.
 

BigSoxFan

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Players simply cannot win when it comes to talking about contracts. If they ask for the "Brinks truck", they get blasted, even when the comment is made in a good natured manner. If they say nothing, ala Kyrie, they get criticized for refusing to express their undying loyalty to the team.
I think there is a middle ground. All I would say in that situation is, "My goal is to remain with the Celtics and I hope that we can get a deal done at the appropriate time". With that, you appease the fans who want some sort of verbal commitment on your part and you haven't put undue pressure on the front office by negotiating in the press. The "Brinks truck" comment doesn't come close to soiling my impression of IT during his time here but in the age of quick-hitter headlines, it probably wasn't the best thing for him to say.
 

lexrageorge

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Cmon now. You really don't think Isaiah could have handled his contract situation MUCH better than he did? Calling out your boss to pay you can't be the best idea in this area.
The remark was made in a very light hearted manner, and we hear similar comments from professional athletes across different sports ALL THE TIME. But for some reason posters here got excessively rankled when IT4 said it.

Granted, had I been his agent, I would have pulled him aside and said "OK, you made your point, and I know you were having fun with the media after a big win. But it's probably better you refer contract questions to me from now on. I think Danny is great, but this business is brutal, and the press is not your friend either. So we'll need to work together to get you the best chance of getting paid well on your next contract."

Finally, I realize this is a bit outside the point: but the practical affect of his comment was essentially nil. He was traded (a) because of his injury; and (b) Danny had a chance to acquire a legit superstar for him. Had IT said he would take a massive hometown discount, it still would not have affected the outcome one iota. The "Brinks truck" was long forgotten by the time this past season ended.
 

Sox Puppet

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Agreed to all of the above. And I also don't put so much stock in the "Brinks truck" comment to let it invalidate everything he did for the C's -- including recruiting players like Gordon Hayward, let's not forget.

Given some people's feelings about IT4, it looks like Kyrie played this the "right" way. Once he was injured last year, he made the prudent decision for himself and sat out the rest of the year rather than pushing his body to maximize a playoff run (and just think -- replacing Rozier with Kyrie in Game 7 against the Cavs would have made a huge difference for us). When asked about his long-term plans, he said:

"Contractually, financially, [an extension] just doesn't make any sense," Irving said. [....]

Irving did note that he hasn't had any conversations with Boston's front office about James and said he appreciates the transparency of team brass as they map out their future vision.

Asked whether he'd be open to reuniting with James, Irving said, "In this business, I've experienced it all and I've seen a lot, so we'll see what management decides."
I remember more than a few people being a little nervous about what seemed like a noncommittal attitude from Kyrie, but it's easy to see why someone would just evade the question rather than giving an honest answer (IT4's 'I deserve to be paid').
 

radsoxfan

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He's delusional about everything. He stated in his recent interview that he deserved a max contract and could have sat out the playoffs and still gotten the max. Ummmm no, I'm pretty sure sitting out the playoffs would be an enormous red flag and be a focus of the physical that he'd surely fail.

Yeah it sucks that he got injured priori to someone paying him but that was what many of us showed typically occurs to the sub-6 foot guard who requires maximum effort for the duration of their time on the floor to compete. Once this type of player loses a step it's over and typically around the age Isaiah is at now.
He certainly is delusional about a lot, particularly the medical aspects of his situation.

It has been publicly stated than IT has a congenital abnormality the predisposes his femur to rub against his acetabulum (impingement). This anatomy likely caused him to progressively shred his labrum and wear away his cartilage. The most likely scenario is that this has been going on for many years, probably since high school, and his arthritis is now at least moderate or advanced. If any intervention was going to be helpful long term, it probably would have had to happen close to a decade ago. His decision to play another month with active inflammation in his joint was probably quite painful, but unlikely made any material difference in his current situation.

I'm not sure if another doctor is actually telling him this, or he just wants to believe it, but I highly doubt it's a fair representation of what actually happened. Once you have impingement, a shredded labrum and advanced arthritis there isn't much to do aside from a clean out procedure (done this offseason), some temporizing steroid injections, and eventually hip replacement.

I do feel bad for the guy and hope he can grind it out (pun intended) for a few more seasons as a useful scorer off the bench. There have been other guys in the NBA who can preform for awhile with pretty bad arthritis so maybe he can join the group (tougher as a little guy relying on quickness though). But the chance of any big money long term contract, regardless of how he plays this year, is zero.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'd rather a guy run his mouth a bit too much than do problematic things on the court.

IT gave us 2+ great years. Even without the injury, the Celtics needed to move on from him to compete at the highest level, and they did.
 

lovegtm

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What is amazing is that Thomas unflinching confidence in himself as well as his inability to acknowledge his flaws is precisely why he has been able to carve out a career in the NBA despite a near impossible limitation. He is nowhere as good as he has been if he doesn't believe to his core that he is a star and better than people think, or the metrics show.

I also view his admission that he connected with Ainge as a plus, even if it was desperation as some here think. Grudges in business are bad and limiting.

That said, I understand that the "Brinks truck" comment bothered people. I come down on the side of players vs management even when it results in adverse outcomes for my teams. However I get that people feel otherwise.
The bolded is my most important takeaway from all this. This whole episode was the only one in the past few years that could have been bad for the Celtics from a player relations standpoint, and it's already patched up. That speaks well to Ainge's ability to manage relationships in a cutthroat business, even with the exigencies of his job (ie trading popular guys).

As far as players vs. teams, it's not so much about the Celtics vs. Isaiah. I just think, as others have said above, that IT did a poor job maximizing his market and accepting his limitations.
 

lovegtm

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What I took out of this is that IT still loves Danny and Brad and the Celtics despite all that happened and that makes me more psyched that they have something special going.

I also hope IT make a lot of money too, I guess.
His NBA earning career is probably about over. But he's a wealthy man who made it incredibly far despite a massive physical disadvantage, and will be popular in Boston forever. Not a bad life.
 

Caspir

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His NBA earning career is probably about over. But he's a wealthy man who made it incredibly far despite a massive physical disadvantage, and will be popular in Boston forever. Not a bad life.
Yea, and even though his "earning career" is over in that he'll never get that $100m contract, I won't be weeping for a guy pulling down around $2m to play basketball this year. I would have liked to see him as the microwave off the bench, but I think there's too many other things that go into bringing him back. He's a fan favorite at a position where our marquee player is a pending FA, and is an eccentric fella, to say the least. Then there's his defense, his reputation for not being the best teammate, and the sad reality that he may be totally cooked due to the hip. My only beef with him was the whole postponing a tribute video, then assuming it would be done on Paul Pierce night, but I loved the little guy when he was here.