Is the National League Just Inferior?

Manramsclan · Aug 30, 2014

My answer is 'No' and my theory is this: A National League team is at a bigger disadvantage playing by AL rules than an AL team is playing by NL rules.

An NL team usually carries extra defenders, guys who can bunt and speed guys, for double switches, pinch-hitting etc. Having a DH type on the roster is very limiting for them in how they play the majority of the games. When they come to play in AL parks, they don't have a great hitter to put in that DH spot most of the time.

When an AL team visits an NL park, the DH typically sits unless that DH is Ortiz, in which case he plays. In either case, either the DH or the 1B who sits is on the bench is used for that pinch hitting role. They can plug that hitter in anywhere at anytime and then either have them enter the game at a position down the defensive spectrum, or burn two players after the DH/1B type hits a three run homer.

In a small sample size of games, I think it's difficult for defensive players to equal the production on defense that a plus hitter can make on offense.

Rasputin · Aug 30, 2014

There are two, maybe three separate questions involved here and the important thing to remember is that the answers all involve the NL sucking.

JohntheBaptist · Aug 30, 2014

Rough Carrigan said:
But the NL pitchers are generally much more useful when batting than the AL pitchers. A lot of AL pitchers are absolutely hopeless, such as Jon Lester, whereas the NL pitchers can bunt competently which most AL pitchers can't. And some NL pitchers are decent hitters.

Another issue is that, in some of those 10 straight years (not this year) most all AL teams had lousy DH's. There have been multiple years where sportswriters looking for an angle for a story have pumped out 'why can't teams find a good dh?' stories. Perspective gets skewed for Red Sox fans when we see the DH as a possible future hall of famer.

Wait--what the hell are you even saying/ asking? As in whether it's been the weaker of the leagues for a few years (and could shift over the next decade through random distribution of players/ managers/ FO personnel)? Or if it's by nature inferior? It actually just seems like you're annoyed about articles written and words spoken by fogey baseball purists, in which case one would think your thought process would be to find them more or less equal and subject to waxing and waning.

I mean obviously it isn't inferior--there are two distinct sets of circumstances for each but that's context. Maybe you hate the pitcher hitting, maybe you can appreciate how the structure of any game can have elements you don't love producing a bigger picture that you do. But inferior? Seriously?

OttoC · Aug 30, 2014

I think it has gone back and forth over the years going back to 1901, depending on relative batting and pitching strengths.

Dummy Hoy · Aug 30, 2014

JohntheBaptist said:
Wait--what the hell are you even saying/ asking? As in whether it's been the weaker of the leagues for a few years (and could shift over the next decade through random distribution of players/ managers/ FO personnel)? Or if it's by nature inferior? It actually just seems like you're annoyed about articles written and words spoken by fogey baseball purists, in which case one would think your thought process would be to find them more or less equal and subject to waxing and waning.

I mean obviously it isn't inferior--there are two distinct sets of circumstances for each but that's context. Maybe you hate the pitcher hitting, maybe you can appreciate how the structure of any game can have elements you don't love producing a bigger picture that you do. But inferior? Seriously?

I think he's suggesting that the caliber of play, rather than the rules of play, is what's inferior. I'd say a good decade of inter league play, all star game results, and the success/struggles of players switching leagues show that the AL has pretty clearly been the superior league for a while. It's cyclical though.

NoXInNixon · Aug 30, 2014

A big part of it has to do with the fact that there's one team in all of baseball that has an economic advantage over every other team, and that team happens to reside in the AL. It's not all of it, but it's a big part of it.

nattysez · Aug 30, 2014

NoXInNixon said:
A big part of it has to do with the fact that there's one team in all of baseball that has an economic advantage over every other team, and that team happens to reside in the AL. It's not all of it, but it's a big part of it.

You might want to familiarize yourself with the Los Angeles Dodgers, owners of the highest payroll in baseball by over $30mm.

geoduck no quahog · Aug 30, 2014

NL teams have a clear advantage over AL in their own parks. Maybe the AL has a slight advantage at home, but they shouldn't.

The clearest thing to me is that NL pitchers are spoiled little puppies having 2 hitters/lineup to relax with. AL pitchers as a group are simply more tested and better.

Plus, the NL has a team that plays in America's Hindu Kush.

Kliq · Aug 30, 2014

NoXInNixon said:
A big part of it has to do with the fact that there's one team in all of baseball that has an economic advantage over every other team, and that team happens to reside in the AL. It's not all of it, but it's a big part of it.

The NL has 8 out of the top 15 teams in payroll, including the afformentioned Dodgers, who lead everyone by approximatley one A-Rod.

Plympton91 · Aug 31, 2014

Manramsclan said:
My answer is 'No' and my theory is this: A National League team is at a bigger disadvantage playing by AL rules than an AL team is playing by NL rules.

An NL team usually carries extra defenders, guys who can bunt and speed guys, for double switches, pinch-hitting etc. Having a DH type on the roster is very limiting for them in how they play the majority of the games. When they come to play in AL parks, they don't have a great hitter to put in that DH spot most of the time.

When an AL team visits an NL park, the DH typically sits unless that DH is Ortiz, in which case he plays. In either case, either the DH or the 1B who sits is on the bench is used for that pinch hitting role. They can plug that hitter in anywhere at anytime and then either have them enter the game at a position down the defensive spectrum, or burn two players after the DH/1B type hits a three run homer.

In a small sample size of games, I think it's difficult for defensive players to equal the production on defense that a plus hitter can make on offense.

You could test that by looking at the record of NL Teams in NL parks vs. NL Teams in AL parks, and then adjusting for a typical home field advantage.

I tend to go toward the theory that NL Pitchers are made soft by having an automatic out in the lineup, and another hitter who has to change his approach because he has an automatic out behind him in the lineup.

Kramerica Industries · Aug 31, 2014

If you watched Peavy and Doubront this year for the Red Sox and have seen what they did just yesterday im not sure how the difference between the leagues isnt obvious.

Al Zarilla · Aug 31, 2014

Kramerica Industries said:
If you watched Peavy and Doubront this year for the Red Sox and have seen what they did just yesterday im not sure how the difference between the leagues isnt obvious.

Peavy beat the Brewers, had them eating out of his hand. The Brewers swept the Sox at Fenway in April, ergo, Peavy has obviously just righted his own ship. Ha ha, I know, transitive properties, SSS, etc. Still, Peavy seems to be hitting his spots very well in his last few starts. Repeating my post in the Psssst thread "Can't say weak NL team. Brewers are good."

knucklecup · Aug 31, 2014

Al Zarilla said:
Peavy beat the Brewers, had them eating out of his hand. The Brewers swept the Sox at Fenway in April, ergo, Peavy has obviously just righted his own ship. Ha ha, I know, transitive properties, SSS, etc. Still, Peavy seems to be hitting his spots very well in his last few starts. Repeating my post in the Psssst thread "Can't say weak NL team. Brewers are good."

The Brewers are 53-56 in their last 109 games.

MakMan44 · Aug 31, 2014

knucklecup said:
The Brewers are 53-56 in their last 109 games.

Seriously? Like what does even this prove?

They're 73-62 this season, tied at the top of their division. They're 3rd in the NL in OPS and 5th in wRC+. They're a pretty good team this year.

knucklecup · Aug 31, 2014

MakMan44 said:
Seriously? Like what does even this prove?

They're 73-62 this season, tied at the top of their division. They're 3rd in the NL in OPS and 5th in wRC+. They're a pretty good team this year.

It proves that they have been an average to below average team for the majority of the season.

Peavy's dominance of the NL has been expected, and Doubront pitching well for the Cubs should be expected as well.

This isn't a matter of guys just figuring it out all of a sudden. That was the point.

MakMan44 · Aug 31, 2014

knucklecup said:
It proves that they have been an average to below average team for the majority of the season.

Peavy's dominance of the NL has been expected, and Doubront pitching well for the Cubs should be expected as well.

This isn't a matter of guys just figuring it out all of a sudden. That was the point.

You picked an arbitrary starting point for the Brewers record, I don't really think it proves anything. It's certainly less worthwhile than the fact that they're in the upper half the NL offensive categories.

Regardless, I think you're overstating the gap between the two leagues. I don't think just moving to the NL is going to make a shitty pitcher become a great one.

knucklecup · Aug 31, 2014

MakMan44 said:
You picked an arbitrary starting point for the Brewers record, I don't really think it proves anything. It's certainly less worthwhile than the fact that they're in the upper half the NL offensive categories.

Regardless, I think you're overstating the gap between the two leagues. I don't think just moving to the NL is going to make a shitty pitcher become a great one.

I was commenting on the gentlemans post up thread because he was indicating that they're a good team. I don't believe that they are a good team and pointed to their below .500 record over the last 109 games since their hot 20-7 start.

I agree. I don't think bad pitchers will become good pitchers. I do think bad pitchers can be effective in the NL though.

NoXInNixon · Sep 1, 2014

nattysez said:
You might want to familiarize yourself with the Los Angeles Dodgers, owners of the highest payroll in baseball by over $30mm.

But this is a new phenomenon. During the vast majority of the time period under question, the Yankees were head and shoulders above everyone else.

Soxfan in Fla · Sep 3, 2014

Their 20-7 start certainly counts but they haven't played like they were playing during that hot start for the vast majority of the season.

knucklecup · Sep 3, 2014

Soxfan in Fla said:
Their 20-7 start certainly counts but they haven't played like they were playing during that hot start for the vast majority of the season.

I made the post. Expect irrational responses from PP.

It's borderline insanity to bring up cherry picking when I'm using a 109 game sample and he's using a 27 game sample.

knucklecup · Sep 4, 2014

Maybe I misunderstood your stance. My apologies if that was the case.

They've lost 8 in a row after tonight and haven't been a very good team since the first month of the season.

There's just one problem with the Milwaukee Brewers... They're not any good.

jose melendez · Sep 4, 2014

I've watched quite a bit of NL baseball since moving to DC four years ago, and the answer is unequivocally yes--the NL is worse. I suspect it's due almost entirely to pitchers getting to be lazy. I kind of like having the different rules, and I do enjoy the double switches and what not, but man, having pitchers bat makes the game easier for pitchers. I don't know how many times I've seen a pitcher pitch around an 8 hitter and even a 7 hitter with two out to get to the pitcher.

Is the National League Just Inferior?

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