I was all set to argue with you, but then I realized that I had confused Chris Singleton with Chris Slade.
Is Mac Jones the biggest bust in Patriots history?
- Thread starter Arroyoyo
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While it’s fucked them in terms of 2022-2023 performance, it hasn’t long term. He gets paid nothing, is easily cuttable, and they didn’t give up additional draft capital to pick him. Plus it happened at 15, not top 5. Much less opportunity cost lost.
Semantics, but to me, there's a difference between biggest bust and worst draft pick. Mac may be a bust (nowhere near the biggest) but he was not really a bad draft pick.
I don't think it is semantics. The Pats had to pick Jones at 15. That he didn't work out doesn't change that. It was not a bad draft pick. Jones is, however, a bust (but nowhere close to the biggest in Patriots history).
Knee? More like a baseball bat.
Yep
1. Game Day (Because drafted 1/1)
2. Harry (1st rounder and so bad relative to WR selected before and after)
3. Hart Lee (Great promise crushed because he was a knucklehead)
HM: Chris Canty, Cole Strange, Reggie Dupard, Dominique Easley
Eugene Chung was going to be my next pick. I remember they traded down because it was a loaded OT draft, but then there was a big run on OTs and they had to trade back up for Chung. He was...not good. That was such a Patriots move (pre-Parcells/Kraft glory days).
Hart Lee Dykes was a knucklehead in the bars one night. But he also fractured his right kneecap during an exhibition game prior to the 1991 season. He did the same to the same knee again in training camp the following year. Then he tore the ACL in his left knee during a mini-camp practice prior to the 1993 season. The eye injury was bad, but the knee injuries really did him in.
Stanley Morgan made a decent living off of it. Unfortunately our opponents also had a propensity for handling Grogan and Eason passes. (259 in 239 games)
I thought about Morgan, but who's to say he wouldn't have been an even much better player somewhere else (Like SF)?
I was being nice. It was semantics in the sense the OP called him the "worst draft pick" but thread is titled "bust" and those are different things. Well, at least, they can be.
Right, not picking Jerry Rice was maybe the "worst draft pick" (or "non-pick") but N'Keal Harry and, say, Ras-I Dowling were bigger "busts" than Matich as players.
Mac Jones had a pretty good rookie season. As good as many 1st round rookie QB's of late vintage, and pretty clearly the best rookie year of the big 5 in his own year. He clearly had a major sophomore slump, perhaps catalyzed but things beyond his control (cough, Matt Patricia, cough, Joe Judge, cough OLine, cough, WR corps) and then fell off a cliff this year. But I don't think that puts him anywhere close to top 10 (bottom 10?) of Patriot draft picks.
Yeah but how is he as a run blocker compared to N'Keal?...
No of course he was also on the board (as was the WR picked after him, Dionate Johnson and the one picked in the 3rd round, Terry McLaurin ughhh). I didn't even get that far because there were some misses after Deebo and Brown went: Mecole Hardiman, JJ Arcega-Whiteside, Parris Campbell, and Andy Isabella.
My immediate reaction was Chung
And this was a quick "but how about" for me
It’s Sims.
But Fryar runs a close second for me. Louis Lipps went 22 picks later and was more productive in the 80s.
But Fryar runs a close second for me. Louis Lipps went 22 picks later and was more productive in the 80s.
I totally understood why you stopped at Deebo and Brown, I just try to never miss an opportunity to post the picture of DK Metcalf at the combine.
Because when you have an option to take an SEC receiver that looks like an actual God of chiseled stone, and runs a 4.33, you damn well better take the 4.53 guy out of the PAC 12 instead. Or AJ Brown, who left his own party and went home and cried when the Pats didn't take him.
And the Pats didn't just reach for Harry, they passed on Metcalf and Brown TWICE. After taking Harry at 32, Metcalf and Brown were both still there at 45 when the Pats took Joejuan Williams, who at last check, I think is playing special teams for the Vikings now, after he couldn't hack it for the Chicago fucking Bears.
My god, that 2019 draft haunts me.
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I'd also say the book isn't exactly written on Mac Jones just yet, either. Certainly the last 2 years have been bad/dreadful, but it's also not out of the realm of possibility that he's back to being a league average starter with a clean slate, fresh start, and placed in the right situation. I don't think that place will be NE, but for sake of argument, let's say NE does a coaching overhaul, drafts MHJR, signs Tee Higgins & Dalton Schultz, the OL stabilizes, and he runs a Mac Friendly offense...I could certainly see him reverting back to playing winning football.
*Again, I don't think that hypothetical ever comes to fruition. But I can see him going to Miami or SF, getting built back up, and if Tua/Purdy were to get hurt, Mac stepping in and looking good. But he definitely needs to be built back up and placed in the right situation where he can be the best version of himself.
*Again, I don't think that hypothetical ever comes to fruition. But I can see him going to Miami or SF, getting built back up, and if Tua/Purdy were to get hurt, Mac stepping in and looking good. But he definitely needs to be built back up and placed in the right situation where he can be the best version of himself.
I actually messed that up, meant to write Metcalf and Brown...
I'm still hurting.
Good point! We have had lots of players that have either suffered or benefited (tremendously) from the team aspect of football. Perhaps more than any other franchise.
Then there's guys like John Hannah who would stand out on any team in any era.
Sims had an 8 year career, but he didn't play much in the back end. Missed around half the games his last four years. Only played in 3 games during the 86 playoff run.
Fryer wasn't a bust, they just used him wrong. He should have been getting 10-12 touches a game on reverses, wheel routes out of the backfield, bubble screens, etc. He was a good enough football player to make it as a "traditional" WR, but would have been incredible as the WR version of CMC or Marshall Faulk.
Fryer wasn't a bust, they just used him wrong. He should have been getting 10-12 touches a game on reverses, wheel routes out of the backfield, bubble screens, etc. He was a good enough football player to make it as a "traditional" WR, but would have been incredible as the WR version of CMC or Marshall Faulk.
I think there's an honest chance that if N'Keal Harry were AJ Brown (or Deebo/Metcalf/even maybe Diontae or McLaurin), the offensive collapse never happens and Brady retires a Patriot. It's honestly unfair to the kid if you try to go down that road, but I think it is completely possible everything is different if that single pick had been the right guy.
This is the most depressing thought I've read on this board since Brady retired. I've never thought of it that way.
Harry is a legitimate locked and loaded bust. He never did anything in the 3 years he was with the Pats. 309 yards was his best year. Quentin Johnson has more yards this year and he's already considered a humongous bust.
There are 117 players this season who have more than 309 yards receiving. Harry was so much worse than Mac. At least Mac in his rookie year took the team to the playoffs as QB. It wasn't only him but at least he was a part of something. Harry was a part of nothing but sadness and pain.
I think if we'd drafted and resigned AJ, then Brady may still be playing in NE.
Career AV for the first round picks since 1990 for the Pats:
1990 - Chris Singleton 27 AV, Ray Agnew 42 AV
1991 - Pat Harlow 34 AV, Leonard Russell 26 AV
1992 - Eugene Chung 13 AV
1993 - Drew Bledsoe 105 AV
1994 - Willie McGinest 76 AV
1995 - Ty Law 88 AV
1996 - Terry Glenn 67 AV (man that's a nice last four first round picks)
1997 - Chris Canty 9 AV
1998 - Robert Edwards 13 AV, Tebucky Jones 27 AV
1999 - Damien Woody 59 AV, Andy Katzenmoyer 8 AV
2000 - none
2001 - Richard Seymour 91 AV
2002 - Daniel Graham 19 AV
2003 - Ty Warren 45 AV
2004 - Vince Wilfork 90 AV, Ben Watson 40 AV
2005 - Logan Mankins 102 AV
2006 - Laurence Maroney 26 AV
2007 - Brandon Meriweather 33 AV
2008 - Jerod Mayo 51 AV
2009 - none
2010 - Devin McCourty 71 AV
2011 - Nate Solder 64 AV
2012 - Chandler Jones 77 AV
2013 - none
2014 - Dominque Easley 7 AV
2015 - Malcom Brown 43 AV
2016 - none
2017 - none
2018 - Isaiah Wynn 19 AV, Sony Michel 21 AV
2019 - N'Keal Harry 7 AV
2020 - none
2021 - Mac Jones 22 AV
2022 - Cole Strange 7 AV
2023 - Christian Gonzalez (no data yet)
So of this group, my nominees are:
Andy Katzenmoyer, Eugene Chung, Chris Candy, Dominique Easley, and N'Keal Harry
Katzenmoyer was massively hyped if I remember correctly, and he was a big fat zero. He would be my vote. Note, of course, that I started this list in 1990, so there were some fails before then. I'm just trying to stay kindasorta recent.
1990 - Chris Singleton 27 AV, Ray Agnew 42 AV
1991 - Pat Harlow 34 AV, Leonard Russell 26 AV
1992 - Eugene Chung 13 AV
1993 - Drew Bledsoe 105 AV
1994 - Willie McGinest 76 AV
1995 - Ty Law 88 AV
1996 - Terry Glenn 67 AV (man that's a nice last four first round picks)
1997 - Chris Canty 9 AV
1998 - Robert Edwards 13 AV, Tebucky Jones 27 AV
1999 - Damien Woody 59 AV, Andy Katzenmoyer 8 AV
2000 - none
2001 - Richard Seymour 91 AV
2002 - Daniel Graham 19 AV
2003 - Ty Warren 45 AV
2004 - Vince Wilfork 90 AV, Ben Watson 40 AV
2005 - Logan Mankins 102 AV
2006 - Laurence Maroney 26 AV
2007 - Brandon Meriweather 33 AV
2008 - Jerod Mayo 51 AV
2009 - none
2010 - Devin McCourty 71 AV
2011 - Nate Solder 64 AV
2012 - Chandler Jones 77 AV
2013 - none
2014 - Dominque Easley 7 AV
2015 - Malcom Brown 43 AV
2016 - none
2017 - none
2018 - Isaiah Wynn 19 AV, Sony Michel 21 AV
2019 - N'Keal Harry 7 AV
2020 - none
2021 - Mac Jones 22 AV
2022 - Cole Strange 7 AV
2023 - Christian Gonzalez (no data yet)
So of this group, my nominees are:
Andy Katzenmoyer, Eugene Chung, Chris Candy, Dominique Easley, and N'Keal Harry
Katzenmoyer was massively hyped if I remember correctly, and he was a big fat zero. He would be my vote. Note, of course, that I started this list in 1990, so there were some fails before then. I'm just trying to stay kindasorta recent.
@BaseballJones missing Hightower, 76 in 2012
Edit: this probably belongs in the BB thread. Moving it.
Edit: this probably belongs in the BB thread. Moving it.
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I've been saying this since Brady left.
He left because he realized in the 2nd half of 2019 that he was out there winning games with smoke and mirrors. He had no help. "I'm the most miserable 8-0 quarterback of all time."
If they had invested in offensive players not named N'Keal Harry and given Brady what he needed, I have no doubt he would have still been here instead of heading to the land of Mike Evans/Godwin. Then they bring in the corpse of Cam Newton, and give him nothing but 2 third round tight ends that have caught less balls in the NFL than N'Keal Harry, and a bunch of free agents that teams were happy to let walk, and it's gotten worse since...
I think you still need to give strange and incomplete at this point. He played reasonably well last year and then was injured for much of the early part of the year this year.
On the other hand, New England did end up with the best player from that draft, and had they taken the consensus #2 they might not have picked Tippett. But trading down might have been a good move.
Yeah, if Belichick could have not waged his war with Gronk and drafted Brown…..hoooo boy.
Too bad Metcalf has a 10 cent head and is taken out of the game by any DB with the stones to talk trash and get physical with him.
Otherwise, Metcalf would make pretty much every team regret not taking him.
Yeah, he was a college DT converted to a 3-4 DE in the days when those guys were asked to just tie up blockers so that the linebackers could make plays. He certainly wasn’t;t a great player, but he was an OK one. He did have a great year in ‘85, though.
Shit, I'll take a 10 cent head with that production every day and twice on Sundays. Straight up, we'll give you guys Tyquan Thornton for him.
To be fair though, I think there's probably a bit of frustration catching balls from Geno and Drew Lock too.
You can keep Thornton, but he has Tyquan Thornton games on a too-regular basis.
Just this year:
vs. LAR - 3 catches, 47 yards, 1 TD
@ NYG - 3 catches, 34 yards, 1 TD
vs BAL - 1 catch, 50 yards
vs SF - 3 catches, 32 yards
@ SF - 2 catches, 52 yards, 1 TD (both catches on the first drive, then nothing)
And it doesn't include the fact that he leads the league in 15 yard penalties since 2019
He also has an abysmal number of broken tackles despite having that God-like body (27 in 78 career games).
If he faces a decent DB that messes with him, he gets taken out of the game mentally.
I'm not saying he's terrible or anything, but he's not as good as he should be and is way behind Brown and Deebo. I'd be hard pressed to put him in the top 25 WRs in the league right now.
See I had wondered about that as well, and I don't mean to turn this into another Brady/BB rehash thread, but I think Brady would have left no matter how the 2019 season ended. Belichick seemed opposed to giving Brady a multi-year contract -- and I don't think one WR would have changed that. In August of '19 Brady signed that "2-year extension" that voided after the season.
Link
In addition, Gronk had retired, Alex Guerrero was being banned from the team plane, etc. I think all of that is why Brady told Howard Stern that before 2019 started he knew it was likely his last season here:
Link
Still, if there's even a 5% chance Brady would have stayed with Deebo/Brown on board, I think the combo of taking Harry and missing out on them makes it among the most disastrous picks in team history.
IIRC Sims fractured his fibula doing a stupid leg whip that kind of ended things for him in New England. That alone makes him an enormous bust.
Mac Jones gave us a playoff season and a better draft pick than the one spent on him. Could be worse.
Fryar was a disappointment given how hyped he was. At the same time, he had some unfortunate timing. He sucked during his rookie year, but that was in an era where rookies didn't always get much playing time due to the massive differences in college vs pro offenses at the time. Then he had a nice run as the #2 receiver to Stanley Morgan in the 1985 season and the following year as well. However, the offense was also built around TE Lin Dawson in 1985 and then Tony Collins catching out of the backfield in 1986, so he did not have the impact one would have hoped as a #1 overall pick.
He then suffered from various injuries that held him back at times, while the team's QB situation was in turmoil. Tony Eason had a bad back; Grogan was broken down; Doug Flutie was just not very good. He then had some really good seasons for some very bad Patriot teams before finally being traded to Miami. There was also an ugly domestic incident in which he claimed he cut his hand in his kitchen, and that game against Buffalo where he left the sidelines to drive into a tree, and then struggled the rest of the season.
He then suffered from various injuries that held him back at times, while the team's QB situation was in turmoil. Tony Eason had a bad back; Grogan was broken down; Doug Flutie was just not very good. He then had some really good seasons for some very bad Patriot teams before finally being traded to Miami. There was also an ugly domestic incident in which he claimed he cut his hand in his kitchen, and that game against Buffalo where he left the sidelines to drive into a tree, and then struggled the rest of the season.
Google has failed me, and I may be misrembering a dis from Roger Clemens about Ken Sims. In short, he wondered what happened to the decline of his physique when he saw him in New England
Jones was a decent starter on a Super Bowl winning team with a huge play in that Super Bowl run (key interception in Pittsburgh) and one of the picks they got from the Saints for him turned into (after 2 more draft day deals) the pick used to acquire Corey Dillon
There’s an argument to be made that two of the Pats titles (2001 and 2004 via Dillon) don’t happen without Tebucky Jones
he never lived up to they hype but when your first round pick is a key part of your title winning defense and gets traded for useful pieces, that takes you out of “bust” category.
First name I thought of; "Gameday" was his nickname.
We beat the Colts in the "Stupor Bowl" earning the right to draft him #1.