Overlooked point. If the C's were in the wrong here, the league office would get involved.The league reportedly isn't doing anything here.
Overlooked point. If the C's were in the wrong here, the league office would get involved.The league reportedly isn't doing anything here.
Perhaps but again, it feels like we will get most of the key parts of the story over time. Fans may end up biased towards or against Udoka from the Tweets but it seems a huge stretch to think any Cs unwind or any prospective employer will use them for anything.I think there is a large population of NBA fans who treat what Woj and Shams write as gospel though. My guess is these leaks are purely a PR play for Ime's "brand" (or whatever is left of it). Clearly, NBA front offices (and this board) will likely be a lot more critical of the information they read from Woj/Shams. But, with respect to framing public opinion, they may be useful for Ime's camp, which is probably why they continue to do it.
I don’t believe I was suggesting employers would be using these tweets. It’s purely for the consumption of the “average fan”, IMO. Not really sure how effective they will ultimately be, especially if more details eventually emerge.Perhaps but again, it feels like we will get most of the key parts of the story over time. Fans may end up biased towards or against Udoka from the Tweets but it seems a huge stretch to think any Cs unwind or any prospective employer will use them for anything.
If sports fans being misinformed or having a bad take had any real consequences, SoSH would be one of the most powerful messageboards in the history of mothers' basements.
Understood. You were clear on that - I was not.I don’t believe I was suggesting employers would be using these tweets. It’s purely for the consumption of the “average fan”, IMO. Not really sure how effective they will ultimately be, especially if more details eventually emerge.
Honestly, even with the Woj soft-pedaling that's probably a killer for him.... sending graphic sexual messages to your subordinates is a behavior that is wildly unacceptable in any business, and given the power dynamic, there are strong cases to be made that it is then impossible to tell if there is true consent in a woman being pursued aggressively by her superior. That kind of behavior opens you up to all kinds of legal/HR issues. Ime will probably work in the NBA again because pro-sports is loaded with toxic workplaces and billionaires willing to cover up misdeeds, but any well run organization should want nothing to do with him.ime’s people are doing a great job with these leaks. He made crude sexual remarks and then they had a consensual relationship after making said remarks and the Celtics are holding the remarks against him?!?!
OTOH, first time I’ve seen Woj call the woman a subordinate.
Crude language is a euphamism for "sexual harrassment", that the woman may have later engaged in a relationship with him doesn't change the wildly inappropriate nature of the initial conduct. It wouldn't be 3 games, it would be suspended for a long enough period that he negotiates a buyout, which is what happened.These leaks are starting to piss me off. (Not that my feelings matter anything above zero). I'm on record as wanting info but this is worse than no info. I am beginning (well, more than beginning) to empathize with Wyc and Brad
If it was just crude language, it would be like a 3 game suspension, or something less than a year
If he had sex with a teenager who was a daughter of an employee/owner, he'd be fired immediately.
The truth is somewhere in the middle to explain this season suspension. Even myself, I'm not anxious to hear the info anymore. Let's protect the victims, move on, and play ball with Joey Mazz.
Go Celtics! Banner 18 in sight.
I think this is right. As far as other teams hiring him, it might depend on what eventually gets out to them and the public. If there are leaks about his specific language/conduct, he's essentially cooked, but until then a team could spin it as speculation. But my sense is pretty much anyone who thought the Celtics overreacted has recanted. At this point, I trust Wyc/Brad and the investigation that took place, and I think other teams do as well. I'm more interested in how everyone moves forward and much less interested in the details of what transpired. Whatever happened was bad. Ime had all the makings of the next great Celtics coach and now it's just a tragic fall from grace. Can Joe and the coaching staff lead this team to a championship? And if not, can the players help the staff by learning from last year, holding each other accountable, and figuring things out on their own? These are the questions that are going to define their season.Crude language is a euphamism for "sexual harrassment", that the woman may have later engaged in a relationship with him doesn't change the wildly inappropriate nature of the initial conduct.
Think of it as Ime’s PR. Sexual harassment sounds - and is - bad. Crude language is locker room talk. Sounds like he was just telling dirty jokes and the woke feminist mob came for him like they may well come for you and me, my brother, just out here repeating funny jokes and telling coworkers they have nice asses. Where’s the harm in that?I don’t think that’s fair to sexual harassment victims. But maybe I just don’t understand euphemisms.
Basically Woj is spinning by saying he used crude language in messages before they entered a relationship, so as to make people think, "oh big deal bad language" but almost certainly what was actually found by the investigation is he started sending his subordinate sexual messages, which is pretty much textbook harrassment, and against the policies of every company in the US in part because if there is a complaint it's basically open and shut for the employment discrimination case.I don’t think that’s fair to sexual harassment victims. But maybe I just don’t understand euphemisms.
Plus, there’s the earlier report which said that the law firm found Ime continued harassment after the relationship ended as well.Basically Woj is spinning by saying he used crude language in messages before they entered a relationship, so as to make people think, "oh big deal bad language" but almost certainly what was actually found by the investigation is he started sending his subordinate sexual messages, which is pretty much textbook harrassment, and against the policies of every company in the US in part because if there is a complaint it's basically open and shut for the employment discrimination case.
Some of it is, depending the form it takes.Why isn't harassment illegal? I guess it is if it's reports to police and it continues... but not until then.
Exactly what they want the public to think.Think of it as Ime’s PR. Sexual harassment sounds - and is - bad. Crude language is locker room talk. Sounds like he was just telling dirty jokes and the woke feminist mob came for him like they may well come for you and me, my brother, just out here repeating funny jokes and telling coworkers they have nice asses. Where’s the harm in that?
I'm sure they will, but that a lot of people will have already thought of it as "not a big deal" will give them cover to hire him anyway if they wantExactly what they want the public to think.
But I suspect other front offices will manage to get the "real story" somehow if they're ever on the track to consider hiring him.
Or, they’re real people.Is it one of those situations like that movie Secretary with James Spader and Maggie Glyllenhall where their naughty talk evolved into a consensual naughty power dynamic that made the danger and the taboo all the more enticing? Is their initial erotic roleplay now being used against Ime?
Or was this a Danaerys and Khal Drogo situation where it started with sexual assault but the couple just wanted to forget that part and get on with the romance but the lawyers were like, “Sorry this isn’t game of thrones.”
This is just speculation.
No Bill Simmons-esque forced scenarios referencing pop culture, please.Is it one of those situations like that movie Secretary with James Spader and Maggie Glyllenhall where their naughty talk evolved into a consensual naughty power dynamic that made the danger and the taboo all the more enticing? Is their initial erotic roleplay now being used against Ime?
Or was this a Danaerys and Khal Drogo situation where it started with sexual assault but the couple just wanted to forget that part and get on with the romance but the lawyers were like, “Sorry this isn’t game of thrones.”
This is just speculation.
It's typically illegal but the police/DA need someone to testify and in this case maybe no one would do so against Ime.Why isn't harassment illegal? I guess it is if it's reports to police and it continues... but not until then.
It may not be an "offense" to his marriage, but "I'm in an open relationship" is not really a defense to inappropriate conduct w/r/t others.If you're in an open relationship how are you a "serial offender"? "So yeah, I know we're in an open relationship but you're definitely fucking too many people."
Yeah, I'm having a hard time reading Woj's tweet as being pro-Udoka spin. Just from that text alone it looks like Udoka likely committed sexual harassment on top of having an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate. Even if there's nothing more, I don't see how he coaches for the Cs again.Basically Woj is spinning by saying he used crude language in messages before they entered a relationship, so as to make people think, "oh big deal bad language" but almost certainly what was actually found by the investigation is he started sending his subordinate sexual messages, which is pretty much textbook harrassment, and against the policies of every company in the US in part because if there is a complaint it's basically open and shut for the employment discrimination case.
Right: I know lots of people that are in various stages of ENM relationships. That 'E' is the really important part: being shitty with colleagues and subordinates (and people that are in a monogamous relationship) isn't part of it.It may not be an "offense" to his marriage, but "I'm in an open relationship" is not really a defense to inappropriate conduct w/r/t others.
I’m a baby I just jump on my key pad and poke at it.No Bill Simmons-esque forced scenarios referencing pop culture, please.
Beyond the season long suspension and the public apology.Yeah I buy Maher's broader argument. Employees only really have an interest when it involves harassment / stalking or a subordinate relationship, or affects work in other respects.
I don't buy that we know enough (or will ever know enough) about what happened with Udoka to know whether that fits into the paradigm.
Entirely relevant. Maher is just sticking his dick in a situation that he doesn’t understand at all. That’s basically the story of his entire career, and the premise of his show, so why change now?Beyond the season long suspension and the public apology.
Yeah those are the two things we know. But if you can conclude from that alone that Udoka's actions either did, or did not, fit into an idea that companies are over-prohibiting or over-punishing what should be treated as perfectly reasonable relationships between consenting adults, you're better at reading the tea leaves than I.Beyond the season long suspension and the public apology.
The Celtics themselves stated that the relationship became known to them in July, after which they hired a law firm. However, there were no signals anywhere until recently that a suspension was even being considered. Anna Horford, who has an obvious connection to the team, deleted a tweet once she became aware of the details and apologized for jumping to conclusions. There are lot of tea leaves out there that indicate this is not a typical workplace romance situation (which indeed in some cases are being over-punished) or even a typical boss-subordinate type relationship (which are problematic anywhere, but can sometimes be worked out without resorting to termination).Yeah those are the two things we know. But if you can conclude from that alone that Udoka's actions either did, or did not, fit into an idea that companies are over-prohibiting or over-punishing what should be treated as perfectly reasonable relationships between consenting adults, you're better at reading the tea leaves than I.
My impression is that right now, discussing the topic more-abstractly as a societal matter, is basically all we can do, because the specific case here remains shrouded in rumor and conjecture. So I found the clip interesting in that regard.
I think we can say at bare minimum:The Celtics themselves stated that the relationship became known to them in July, after which they hired a law firm. However, there were no signals anywhere until recently that a suspension was even being considered. Anna Horford, who has an obvious connection to the team, deleted a tweet once she became aware of the details and apologized for jumping to conclusions. There are lot of tea leaves out there that indicate this is not a typical workplace romance situation (which indeed in some cases are being over-punished) or even a typical boss-subordinate type relationship (which are problematic anywhere, but can sometimes be worked out without resorting to termination).
Tweet 3 of 4 comes sorta close to what a SoSHer posted from an inside source back on Day 2 of this thread.Take this FWIW. If accurate it makes sense, and seems to indicate possible sexual addiction. A thread:
View: https://twitter.com/khaled74/status/1576095639645016064?s=46&t=MlHwqGdDbLmwBPMBf2uasg
Yup!Stephen A. Smith: Celtics Docked Ime Udoka Half His Pay
SAS is represented by the same agency as Woj and Ime...right?
No. He's repped by WME.Stephen A. Smith: Celtics Docked Ime Udoka Half His Pay
SAS is represented by the same agency as Woj and Ime...right?
No, he left them just before the pandemic. That won’t stop him from playing the race card at any and all opportunities.Stephen A. Smith: Celtics Docked Ime Udoka Half His Pay
SAS is represented by the same agency as Woj and Ime...right?