Ime Udoka suspended for the 22-23 season

Cesar Crespo

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Isn't the media confusing affairs? Like, the name floating out there now is the consensual relationship. Wasn't there another?

I think I'll go back to not paying attention. It seems the media isn't.
 

djbayko

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Isn't the media confusing affairs? Like, the name floating out there now is the consensual relationship. Wasn't there another?

I think I'll go back to not paying attention. It seems the media isn't.
I think you're confusing the story. Of course, we don't know much at all and this could be wrong. But from what I can tell, there was only the consensual relationship, but there might have been some unwanted harrassment around it (that being the non-consensual bit).
 

kazuneko

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I think you're confusing the story. Of course, we don't know much at all and this could be wrong. But from what I can tell, there was only the consensual relationship, but there might have been some unwanted harrassment around it (that being the non-consensual bit).
There are also recent reports that he slept “with the owners wife”, presumably after being talked to about the affair with a subordinate. That goes back to rumors that we’re floating around earlier, and also would explain a lot. I mean, if you want to get fired, sleeping with the boss’s wife is a great way to get you to that goal. The rumors don’t make clear which owner we’re talking about, but I’m not sure if the names really matter to understand the Cs response. If it ends up that he had an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate and was talked to about it, and then, after this was caught sleeping with an owners wife, its not at all surprising he got canned. Of course none of this is confirmed and we don’t know all the details, but it’s a story that fits with what we know and explains the Cs response..
 

Cesar Crespo

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There are also recent reports that he slept “with the owners wife”, presumably after being talked to about the affair with a subordinate. That goes back to rumors that we’re floating around earlier, and also would explain a lot. I mean, if you want to get fired, sleeping with the boss’s wife is a great way to get you to that goal. The rumors don’t make clear which owner we’re talking about, but I’m not sure if the names really matter to understand the Cs response. If it ends up that he had an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate and was talked to about it, and then, after this was caught sleeping with an owners wife, its not at all surprising he got canned. Of course none of this is confirmed and we don’t know all the details, but it’s a story that fits with what we know and explains the Cs response..
I haven't been following this story super close because it's gross the way it's being portrayed by the media. I've gotten my news from this thread, and I'll skip a few pages to see if there's any new news.

With that said, there were posts on here talking about multiple women and him being a sex addict a la Tiger Woods.

Plus with the way the story is reported, it makes it sound like the C's unearthed something they didn't know about. They knew about the consensual affair and it was on the up and up (as much as an affair can be). It wasn't the affair that was the shocking part. Maybe I read that as suggesting it was another affair that wasn't as consensual/nice. Or just others affairs in general.

If it was the bosses wife after being told to cut the shit, Ime is never going to work in the NBA again. Either he has a very serious addiction or he was deliberately pushing the envelope/giving his boss the finger.

I'm guessing we won't know what really happened until he starts coaching. If he doesn't, we can assume the worst but I doubt we find out.
 

Five Cent Head

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Can someone please explain to me what difference it makes whose wife the person was? I feel like we're living decades in the past, when women were viewed as possessions to be protected, not individuals who can make their own decisions. If the relationship is consensual, then any issues between the husband and the wife should stay between the husband and the wife.

Yes, if Ime had an affair with a player's wife, then you can make a strong case that he's risking great damage to the working environment. Part of this is a trust issue, part of it is power dynamics since the coach controls who plays and who doesn't. Part of it is maturity. All of those issues are different between the head coach and the governor. I also have no idea how an NBA team works: how closely do the head coach and a governor work?
 

kazuneko

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Can someone please explain to me what difference it makes whose wife the person was? I feel like we're living decades in the past, when women were viewed as possessions to be protected, not individuals who can make their own decisions. If the relationship is consensual, then any issues between the husband and the wife should stay between the husband and the wife.

Yes, if Ime had an affair with a player's wife, then you can make a strong case that he's risking great damage to the working environment. Part of this is a trust issue, part of it is power dynamics since the coach controls who plays and who doesn't. Part of it is maturity. All of those issues are different between the head coach and the governor. I also have no idea how an NBA team works: how closely do the head coach and a governor work?
I don't care at all about the identity of the subordinate - just whether or not it was consensual and if there was anything that could be perceived as harassment or abuse, before after or during the affair. If he followed up with that incident with a separate affair with an owner's wife, the fact that it was an owner's wife makes all the difference, and there wouldn't need to be any harassment involved to make it a fireable offense .
Consensual or not you don't sleep with your boss's wife, and while that may not be some type of moral issue it's just common sense. The owners hire and fire - piss them off like that and you are getting fired. And this was after he was already told to calm it down. If an employee somehow doesn't get that you can't do that, it just speaks to their inability to control themselves or understand proper boundaries - something that could obviously affect their ability to be a leader in an organization.
 

Five Cent Head

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I don't care at all about the identity of the subordinate - just whether or not it was consensual and if there was anything that could be perceived as harassment or abuse, before after or during the affair. If he followed up with that incident with a separate affair with an owner's wife, the fact that it was an owner's wife makes all the difference, and there wouldn't need to be any harassment involved to make it a fireable offense .
Consensual or not you don't sleep with your boss's wife, and while that may not be some type of moral issue it's just common sense. The owners hire and fire - piss them off like that and you are getting fired. And this was after he was already told to calm it down. If an employee somehow doesn't get that you can't do that, it just speaks to their inability to control themselves or understand proper boundaries - something that could obviously affect their ability to be a leader in an organization.
First, to be clear, I was not responding specifically to your post. "Whose wife did he sleep with" has been a theme since this thread started, and it has bugged me from the start.

Next, it may be common sense to not sleep with your boss's wife, but I think this comes from an old-fashioned way of looking at things. We don't know what happened or even if there is anything to this recent rumor, but suppose there is. What if the woman lied and told Ime that she and her husband have an open relationship? To what degree would Ime have any responsibility? The event could lead to a divorce or marriage counseling or other things between the husband and wife, but without knowing more about what actually happened, it is not clear why this should have an effect on Ime's career. If X's wife slept with Ime, who knows, maybe that says more about the relationship between X and his wife than it does about Ime.

Parts of this discussion have the vibe of men thinking about how they would feel if they found out that their wife had been having an affair with Ime Udoka, and I am suggesting that this is not relevant in determining what happens to his job or his career. What matters is whether it was consensual, whether there was harassment, what the company policies are, whether the women were employed by the Celtics, how Ime's behavior could affect his job as head coach, etc.

Finally, identifying someone as "X's wife" bugs me. There is a long history of referring to women by specifying their relationship to others — so-and-so's mother or wife — much moreso than men. Old-school 70s feminists critiqued this, and I think we should be able to finally listen to them and avoid this old pattern.
 

djbayko

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Can someone please explain to me what difference it makes whose wife the person was? I feel like we're living decades in the past, when women were viewed as possessions to be protected, not individuals who can make their own decisions. If the relationship is consensual, then any issues between the husband and the wife should stay between the husband and the wife.

Yes, if Ime had an affair with a player's wife, then you can make a strong case that he's risking great damage to the working environment. Part of this is a trust issue, part of it is power dynamics since the coach controls who plays and who doesn't. Part of it is maturity. All of those issues are different between the head coach and the governor. I also have no idea how an NBA team works: how closely do the head coach and a governor work?
Obviously sleeping with a player’s wife would cause problems. I don’t think it’s so crazy to imagine organizational issues if it were someone else in management. I think many of the issues you list in your second paragraph could possibly apply, depending on how people interact. The working environment isn’t solely on the court, and I can’t imagine it’s a terribly large organization.
 

Eddie Jurak

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How many people in the Celtics' front office? If a high profile person in any small organization was behaving as Ime is being reported to (having multiple affairs with married female employees, even when asked to stop) I think that would obviously be toxic for the org.
 

lovegtm

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How many people in the Celtics' front office? If a high profile person in any small organization was behaving as Ime is being reported to (having multiple affairs with married female employees, even when asked to stop) I think that would obviously be toxic for the org.
Yeah, this is sex addict territory, if true.

I wonder how much of a coaching boost the Celtics will get this year from the free brain cycles available to Mazzulla, who presumably is not horndogging it nonstop.
 

Five Cent Head

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How many people in the Celtics' front office? If a high profile person in any small organization was behaving as Ime is being reported to (having multiple affairs with married female employees, even when asked to stop) I think that would obviously be toxic for the org.
Having sex with multiple employees would be toxic, especially for someone in a position of power like the head coach, and if the rumors are correct and he was asked to cut it out but persisted, that's even worse. But why does it matter whether they're married? For that matter, why does it matter whether they're female?
 

kazuneko

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Having sex with multiple employees would be toxic, especially for someone in a position of power like the head coach, and if the rumors are correct and he was asked to cut it out but persisted, that's even worse. But why does it matter whether they're married?
I get the high ideals but in practice people being married -especially to other people in the same organization- matters, if for no other reason because it creates more drama. I mean, this isn't a huge organization, and a head coach is perhaps the most important leader on the team. If that leader is screwing one person after another within this small organization, continuing to do so after he had been told to stop, it's going to create serious problems. I mean, there is a reason people say "don't shit where you eat". Ime 's behavior is a good example of what can happen if you go too far away from that principle.
.
for that matter, why does it matter whether they're female?
Ideally it wouldn't matter, but remember this league has only had one openly gay player in its entire history and that was very briefly in 2014. No one has come out since
 

Five Cent Head

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I get the high ideals but in practice people being married -especially to other people in the same organization- matters, if for no other reason because it creates more drama. I mean, this isn't a huge organization, and a head coach is perhaps the most important leader on the team. If that leader is screwing one person after another within this small organization, continuing to do so after he had been told to stop, it's going to create serious problems. I mean, there is a reason people say "don't shit where you eat". Ime 's behavior is a good example of what can happen if you go too far away from that principle.
Exactly, I'm striving for high ideals and asking that we notice how we discuss this kind of situation. I think that it is completely irrelevant whether the people are married, except possibly if they're married to other people in the same organization. After your first sentence, the rest of what you wrote carries the same weight regardless of the people involved, whether married or not.

Ideally it wouldn't matter, but remember this league has only had one openly gay player in its entire history and that was very briefly in 2014. No one has come out since
Well, there's Brad Stevens and Chasten. ;)

Anyway, because of homophobia and related issues, I would think that it could be even more disruptive to the atmosphere and his ability to lead if he had been sleeping with male employees. (I'm talking about the reality of the situation, not the ideal world.) So it feels odd to mention affairs with female employees explicitly when trying to make a point about the toxicity of the situation.
 

InstaFace

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I'm with you on the marital status of the women Udoka was sleeping was being irrelevant.

What seems to not have been irrelevant was the position of power their husband was in within the Celtics organization. We may not want it to matter, but it evidently does matter as far as how much drama it causes, when someone who's the owner's friend can complain directly to the owner about it.
 

NomarsFool

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What's really weird in this whole situation is the timing. If the reports are true, and the relationship with the partner of an owner happend AFTER Ime was told to stop having relationships within the organization, it's such an apparent "middle finger" to that instruction that the Celtics really had no choice in the matter. Maybe it wasn't intended that way by Ime, it's just an incredibly weird coincidence and timing of the whole thing.
 

djbayko

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Exactly, I'm striving for high ideals and asking that we notice how we discuss this kind of situation. I think that it is completely irrelevant whether the people are married, except possibly if they're married to other people in the same organization. After your first sentence, the rest of what you wrote carries the same weight regardless of the people involved, whether married or not.
Okay, I was confused then. I thought we were talking about women married to someone else in the organization, but now I realized that I was putting those words in your mouth. Yeah, if they're married to someone outside the organization, that's irrelevant.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Exactly, I'm striving for high ideals and asking that we notice how we discuss this kind of situation. I think that it is completely irrelevant whether the people are married, except possibly if they're married to other people in the same organization. After your first sentence, the rest of what you wrote carries the same weight regardless of the people involved, whether married or not.
That's one of the rumors that went around, I believe. And it would be relevant. Not for the morality of it, but for the organizational mess it creates.
 

Five Cent Head

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Okay, I was confused then. I thought we were talking about women married to someone else in the organization, but now I realized that I was putting those words in your mouth. Yeah, if they're married to someone outside the organization, that's irrelevant.
I'm sorry, I think I haven't been clear. The most recent discussion has been about a woman married to someone else in the organization, and some of my comments have been in response to some of that, so my position has not been clear. If you go back a few pages, there are lots of references (and I don't want to quote them all) about Ime having affairs with married women — no mention of women married to people in the organization, just that they were married, as if that were somehow relevant to anything. Those are what I'm mainly objecting to.

Anyway, let me try to clarify my thoughts. I think that the issues are, in order of importance (starting with the worst):
  • if there was harassment or coercion or non-consensual aspects, really really bad.
  • if there was sexual contact between Ime and someone he supervised, really bad.
  • if there was sexual contact between Ime and someone else in the organization, bad (to varying degrees depending on their position).
  • all of the above are compounded if the rumors are correct that he was told to stop but persisted.
I hope everyone agrees with this so far.
  • if there was sexual contact between Ime and someone, in the org or not, who was married to someone in the org, could range from really bad (e.g., a player's wife because that risks seriously damaging his ability to work with that player) to not that relevant, or in any case not nearly as bad as the previous items. I would even suggest a big gap between the previous items and this one in most cases. The rumors have been that the women are in the org, and in that case, I think the previous items considerably outweigh this one.
  • if there was sexual contact between Ime and someone, in the org or not, who was married to someone outside the org, even if it's the governor's best friend, not relevant.
Throughout, I'm talking about Ime's employment and career, not what I might think about his morals or his decisions in his personal life.

So one of my main points is: it doesn't matter if the women were married to someone outside the org. One of my lesser points is that, if the women were in the org, that's much more important than if they are married and their spouse also happens to be in the org (unless it's a player or something along those lines).
 

Marciano490

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I try to be pretty hip and I’ve regrettably slept with married women in the past, but are we really so evolved that we don’t think having an affair with a married person isn’t evidence of worse decision making and probably maybe more a moral wrong? Shit, I know a couple where an affair just ended in suicide.
 

ElUno20

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I try to be pretty hip and I’ve regrettably slept with married women in the past, but are we really so evolved that we don’t think having an affair with a married person isn’t evidence of worse decision making and probably maybe more a moral wrong? Shit, I know a couple where an affair just ended in suicide.
You need to write a book one day. The stuff you casually mention from time to time is the most interesting/shocking/once in a lifetime event in most people's lives To you it's just like a random Tuesday.
 

Archer1979

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I try to be pretty hip and I’ve regrettably slept with married women in the past, but are we really so evolved that we don’t think having an affair with a married person isn’t evidence of worse decision making and probably maybe more a moral wrong? Shit, I know a couple where an affair just ended in suicide.
To expand on this... if you had slept with the wife of someone that you worked with, what are the chances that you would still be working for them once they found out?
 

The Mort Report

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To expand on this... if you had slept with the wife of someone that you worked with, what are the chances that you would still be working for them once they found out?
In a restaurant I worked in recently, the owner, married, started dating a bartender who switched to management because she was pregnant, also married. I wanna say 25 year difference in age. They both got divorced, he made her the GM with no real GM responsibility, dated for a few years. Then they had a brutal break up, she started sleeping with the kitchen manager, he found out, loudly fired him. She talked him into keeping him. The three of them still share an office still about a year later
 

Five Cent Head

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I try to be pretty hip and I’ve regrettably slept with married women in the past, but are we really so evolved that we don’t think having an affair with a married person isn’t evidence of worse decision making and probably maybe more a moral wrong? Shit, I know a couple where an affair just ended in suicide.
As I said in my post, I wasn't discussing the morals of his actions, just how they affect his job and career. Is it okay for our employers to judge us on the morals of our actions? You don't go to church enough, you're suspended. You had an abortion, you're fired. You cheat on your taxes, you cut in line at the deli, you are a Yankees fan, whatever. Maybe being a Yankees fan should be a fireable offense, but that's not actually a world I want to live in. Or maybe it is, but anyway...

For the particular case of having an affair with a married person, it's impossible to judge without knowing the details. Are they married in name only, just the divorce papers haven't gone through? Do they have an open relationship? Is the married person a serial adulterer and just doesn't care about the sanctity of marriage, and if so, does that change the responsibility of the other person involved in the affair? (Remember, in Ime's case we're relying on rumors and sports media, neither of which can be trusted to get details and nuance right.) Having an affair with a married person may be evidence of worse decision making, but it may not. In Ime's case, I think the other factors are much worse.
 

Archer1979

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In a restaurant I worked in recently, the owner, married, started dating a bartender who switched to management because she was pregnant, also married. I wanna say 25 year difference in age. They both got divorced, he made her the GM with no real GM responsibility, dated for a few years. Then they had a brutal break up, she started sleeping with the kitchen manager, he found out, loudly fired him. She talked him into keeping him. The three of them still share an office still about a year later
I know of a similar story that ended much worse. My friend (who was the owner) instantly broke up with his GF, fired the chef, and the bank foreclosed on the restaurant.

Needless to say, messing with the boss's SO is not a good career move.
 

The Mort Report

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I know of a similar story that ended much worse. My friend (who was the owner) instantly broke up with his GF, fired the chef, and the bank foreclosed on the restaurant.

Needless to say, messing with the boss's SO is not a good career move.
Oh man I hope/didn't mean to come across as trying to say this behavior is ok and it can still work out. Its an absolutely miserable situation for the people I know that are still there. The place would be way better of if that relationship never happened
 

EvilEmpire

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As I said in my post, I wasn't discussing the morals of his actions, just how they affect his job and career. Is it okay for our employers to judge us on the morals of our actions? You don't go to church enough, you're suspended. You had an abortion, you're fired. You cheat on your taxes, you cut in line at the deli, you are a Yankees fan, whatever. Maybe being a Yankees fan should be a fireable offense, but that's not actually a world I want to live in. Or maybe it is, but anyway...
Eh.

Sleeping with a subordinate can damage the workplace environment.

Sleeping with a coworker peer can damage the workplace environment.

Sleeping with a coworker's SO can damage the workplace environment.

Take the morals out and it is still a shitty thing to do that can impact the mission of the company or team and demonstrates poor judgement of those involved.

Every situation is different, but I have zero problem with that kind of behavior impacting someone's job or career. Especially if that job is in a leadership role. Tolerating it is recipe for a dysfunctional organization.
 

Archer1979

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Oh man I hope/didn't mean to come across as trying to say this behavior is ok and it can still work out. Its an absolutely miserable situation for the people I know that are still there. The place would be way better of if that relationship never happened
No worries.

Just wanted to illustrate that some folks (like in your case) can get past it. Others can't.

If it ever happened to me, I have no regrets in saying that I'm not nearly that big of a person. Logic and understanding would definitely take a back seat to senseless behavior and non-violent revenge.
 

Tony C

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As I said in my post, I wasn't discussing the morals of his actions, just how they affect his job and career. Is it okay for our employers to judge us on the morals of our actions? You don't go to church enough, you're suspended. You had an abortion, you're fired. You cheat on your taxes, you cut in line at the deli, you are a Yankees fan, whatever. ....
It's tough to talk with certainty about a situation on which the facts remain...unclear. That said, rules about workplace harassment, sex, etc are based on keeping power and personal dynamics from making a workplace a Peyton Place telenovela. The analogy to going to church etc seems more than a stretch. I think there's a fair debate about some of the workplace regulations on personal relationships, but analogies to penalizing people for church attendance, abortion, etc -- i.e, for personal morals -- misses the point.
 

Five Cent Head

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It's tough to talk with certainty about a situation on which the facts remain...unclear. That said, rules about workplace harassment, sex, etc are based on keeping power and personal dynamics from making a workplace a Peyton Place telenovela. The analogy to going to church etc seems more than a stretch. I think there's a fair debate about some of the workplace regulations on personal relationships, but analogies to penalizing people for church attendance, abortion, etc -- i.e, for personal morals -- misses the point.
You’re right, it was a stretch. I agree about rules and their goals, but are there rules that make it worse to sleep with someone in the org who is married than with someone who is single? (I don’t mean married to someone in the org, just married.) Should there be such rules? This is the part that I am questioning.
 

Five Cent Head

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Eh.

Sleeping with a subordinate can damage the workplace environment.

Sleeping with a coworker peer can damage the workplace environment.

Sleeping with a coworker's SO can damage the workplace environment.

Take the morals out and it is still a shitty thing to do that can impact the mission of the company or team and demonstrates poor judgement of those involved.

Every situation is different, but I have zero problem with that kind of behavior impacting someone's job or career. Especially if that job is in a leadership role. Tolerating it is recipe for a dysfunctional organization.
I largely agree with this, but Marciano’s post suggested that an affair with a married person is worse than with a single person, with no stipulations about where the spouse worked. So I think we’re talking past each other. I tried to clarify my views in the post of mine preceding his.
 

Marciano490

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I largely agree with this, but Marciano’s post suggested that an affair with a married person is worse than with a single person, with no stipulations about where the spouse worked. So I think we’re talking past each other. I tried to clarify my views in the post of mine preceding his.
I’m not saying worse or better. I think in the vast majority of circumstances, including when I’ve done it, it shows a recklessness or selfishness or lack of trustworthiness - again, talking garden variety affairs, not someone stuck in an abusive relationship or an open marriage, etc. Probably wouldn’t matter for a lot of jobs, and I’d probably be surprised to be fired from a law firm for an outside affair, but if it got messy and the firm wanted to distance itself or just didn’t trust me at the Christmas party anymore, well, I’d get why it’s different from sleeping with someone single.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Definitionally, this is a scenario where the key employee is not respecting professional boundaries. If he's not just involved with other, lesser, team employee(s), but also with married ones (or spouses of team employees), I wouldn;t say that enforcing respect for personal boundaries is on the company.

But if you are an owner wondering about your key employee's ability to respect boundaries, maybe the more and different types of boundaries broken leads you to have less faith in his ability to get his shit together.

And there is potential for other types of problems. If a married couple works at the company and your key employee sleeps with one of them, he's created a bigger problem in the work environment than if it had been a single employee. If there is a divorce, maybe several employees get subpoenaed, which can't be a great thing to have to deal with.
 

reggiecleveland

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I’m not saying worse or better. I think in the vast majority of circumstances, including when I’ve done it, it shows a recklessness or selfishness or lack of trustworthiness - again, talking garden variety affairs, not someone stuck in an abusive relationship or an open marriage, etc. Probably wouldn’t matter for a lot of jobs, and I’d probably be surprised to be fired from a law firm for an outside affair, but if it got messy and the firm wanted to distance itself or just didn’t trust me at the Christmas party anymore, well, I’d get why it’s different from sleeping with someone single.
You were clear the first time. It shows a lack of judgment.
 

Five Cent Head

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You were clear the first time. It shows a lack of judgment.
Of course it shows lack of judgment. That's not my question. If the rumors are true, Ime has already displayed an amazing lack of judgment, so I'm wondering what difference the "married" part makes. If he slept with coworkers, was asked to stop but didn't stop, if there was harassment and/or a non-consensual aspect, that merits how much of a suspension in your mind? Now how much longer is the suspension if the coworkers were married rather than single? Same question but for damage to his career: how much damage does the first batch of things do to his career, and how much is added if the coworkers are married? The lack of judgment displayed by having affairs with married people is there, but it's tiny compared to everything else: in math terms, it's adding epsilon to a large number, the difference is insignificant. Or it's like homeopathy or something.
 

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Wait, are there actual sentient human beings who thought Udoka had any shot of returning to Boston? Because that's not even a Woj sparkler.

Mazzulla may keep his seat permanently. Udoka is likely to coach elsewhere. Mind blown!
 

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Jan 20, 2007
57,405
Wait, are there actual sentient human beings who thought Udoka had any shot of returning to Boston? Because that's not even a Woj sparkler.

Mazzulla may keep his seat permanently. Udoka is likely to coach elsewhere. Mind blown!
When play resumed, Breen said that someone with the Celtics said that “the door was not fully closed,” though. Color me skeptical. Sounded sorta non-commital though, like ESPN was just trying to round their reporting out; maybe got a nasty call from the Celtics office?