Ime Udoka suspended for the 22-23 season

Jimbodandy

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Companies really frown on employees in position of power having affairs with other employees. It’s the whole Power thing. Have you heard of #MeToo?
Apologies for not requoting myself like for the tenth time in this thread, but the wife of a senior VP is not in a power imbalance relationship with the coach. Clearly not, since the coach just got whacked.

I've said in this thread more than once "if his improper relationship was with a subordinate in the organization, I'll drive the airport car". What is being reported is not that. If that's what comes out, I'll be celebrating his departure with everyone else.
 

jcd0805

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Apologies for not requoting myself like for the tenth time in this thread, but the wife of a senior VP is not in a power imbalance relationship with the coach.
Wait, she’s a contractor working with the team right? And the wife of a friend of the VP. At least that’s the most credible stuff I’ve seen.
 

Jimbodandy

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Wait, she’s a contractor working with the team right? And the wife of a friend of the VP. At least that’s the most credible stuff I’ve seen.
I've read that she was the wife of the VP. Also separate story that she was/is a personal friend of Steve's who did some side work for the team. In those cases, it seems like more like shitting in one's backyard than abuse of power. If it's someone further down the ladder from Ime, then this makes sense.
 

soxin6

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This is precisely what I was afraid we would see. If the perception is that Ime is being singled out while a white coach wouldn’t be then this will be a disaster for the Celtics with their current players and will damage their chances of attracting players in the future. With all of the things that are constantly said about Boston, the last thing the Celtics need is the perception that racial bias is why Ime was suspended.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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No.

The ownership made a call that Ime had to go for shitting in his own back yard, and he deserves some scorn for that along with his paramour. I don't mess around on my wife and do certainly think less of others for doing it. But unless we hear that Udoka abused his power, this is pretty much all on ownership.

Of course ownership can always hire and fire (or suspend in this case) largely on their whims. It's arbitrary to an extent, all such decisions. But all this "he broke team rules" talk is basically shorthand for "don't cross the owner", until we hear otherwise. And that's within their rights. I just think that it's fucking stupid.
I don't care to discuss any of the details of this situation until we have more information. By extension, I am ill qualified to critique the team's response.

Where we may differ is that we are at this very moment because of Ime Udoka's choices. I would be surprised if Ime himself disputes that.

Most responsible adults know that actions have consequences, including disproportionate responses. Whether that is what transpired here is not for me to say. But this thread only exists because Ime Udoka acted on a very human impulse.
 

fairlee76

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Personally I think whatever coach makes it more likely that Tatum signs an extension is the right coach.
Yep. And let’s hope Ime talks to the players and makes it clear to them (whether he believes this or not) that he fucked up and this punishment was justified. Please, please, please. Otherwise, I worry the Anna Horford take is one that at least a few players adopt as well.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't care to discuss any of the details of this situation until we have more information. By extension, I am ill qualified to critique the team's response.

Where we may differ is that we are at this very moment because of Ime Udoka's choices. I would be surprised if Ime himself disputes that.

Most responsible adults know that actions have consequences, including disproportionate responses. Whether that is what transpired here is not for me to say. But this thread only exists because Ime Udoka acted on a very human impulse.
That's fair.
 

riboflav

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Were you their boss?
Yeah I was gonna say I married mine (co-worker) and so did many people I know. We need more details. That said, he’s in a much higher position of power and the almost face of an entire organization. I was an operations manager and she was a staff writer. Pretty equivalent in that org.
 

lars10

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I don't care to discuss any of the details of this situation until we have more information. By extension, I am ill qualified to critique the team's response.

Where we may differ is that we are at this very moment because of Ime Udoka's choices. I would be surprised if Ime himself disputes that.

Most responsible adults know that actions have consequences, including disproportionate responses. Whether that is what transpired here is not for me to say. But this thread only exists because Ime Udoka acted on a very human impulse.
I guess here is the question... has anything like this ever happened before? Has there ever been a coach suspended (for any length of time let alone a year.. which also seems potentially unprecedented) for a sexual relationship with a coworker?

edit: when was the last time a coach was suspended for a year?
 

DeadlySplitter

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Shams just tweeted an update to his article on the matter, floating it became not fully consensual recently.

https://theathletic.com/3617945/2022/09/22/celtics-ime-udoka-discipline/

Some members of the Celtics organization first became aware of the relationship in July, sources said. At that time, team leadership was led to believe by both parties that the relationship was consensual. But sources said that the woman recently accused Udoka of making unwanted comments toward her — leading the team to launch a set of internal interviews.

The team’s decision and announcement came after a closed-door meeting Thursday that involved team owners and president Brad Stevens and lasted several hours, sources said. Earlier Thursday, Stevens and members of the Celtics front office met with players at the team facility.
 

radsoxfan

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Shams just tweeted an update to his article on the matter, floating it became not fully consensual recently.

https://theathletic.com/3617945/2022/09/22/celtics-ime-udoka-discipline/
If they knew about it in July and did nothing, that seems to imply the "unwanted comments" (whatever that entails) primarily resulted in the current situation.

It appears an extra marital affair with a female staff wasn't enough for them to do anything about it. And obviously they wouldn't have preferred to make this decision a week before training camp.

This is not going to end well for Ime.
 

Ed Hillel

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On the Al's sister thing. It is fully possible that players will feel what she said, I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure if the Lakers had dropped Kobe when he was accused of rape, lots of players would have been livid, but it still would have been the right thing to do.
Oof. The Kobe case was in no way cut and dry, and, despite the settlement, the evidence to me suggested it was more likely than not it was consensual. In the least, reasonable people could reach that conclusion. Regardless, where the facts are gray on the surface, I think it’s gross the inclination is to say ruining the accused’s life should be the default go-to.

Note that when you have a case like that Bills punter, I’d say it’s more than justified. But just running off accusations only makes me squirm.
 
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shoelace

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Shams just tweeted an update to his article on the matter, floating it became not fully consensual recently.

https://theathletic.com/3617945/2022/09/22/celtics-ime-udoka-discipline/
If there is more to this, many people in this thread embarrassingly shit all over themselves. Disciplining the coach to avoid a situation where your organization turns into a cesspool like the Dallas Mavericks, where sexual harassment among other things becomes normalized is a good thing. Trying to make me your workplace safer for female employees or anyone who can be victimized by misconduct is good. It's possible not everything is a cynical calculation and that some things matter more than basketball.

Also, anyone who is trying to convince themselves that the Celtics did a racism because they punished an incidentally black man for bad behavior because of Anna Horford tweets is a fundamentally unserious person. You share this take with always wrongs like Stephen A. Smith and people who think Kobe's accuser was trying to bring him down because of his race. Be mindful of the company you keep.
 

Ed Hillel

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If they knew about it in July and did nothing, that seems to imply the "unwanted comments" (whatever that entails) primarily resulted in the current situation.

It appears an extra marital affair with a female staff wasn't enough for them to do anything about it. And obviously they wouldn't have preferred to make this decision a week before training camp.

This is not going to end well for Ime.
On its surface, the Celtics actions strike me as actions taken either with knowledge or fear of a coming lawsuit. The addition of harassment or unsafe workplace claims into the story would make a lot of sense imo.
 

riboflav

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Shams just tweeted an update to his article on the matter, floating it became not fully consensual recently.

https://theathletic.com/3617945/2022/09/22/celtics-ime-udoka-discipline/
If this is accurate, it seems that the the woman involved was saying their relationship as of July was consensual but since July, Udoka made unwanted comments which were probably sexual in nature... So, Udoka is done here as coach and should be. He should probably be done as coach everywhere in the NBA (but we know how this can go).
 

Marciano490

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Just a side issue that maybe I’m only interested in, but I wonder if the harassment gets out if not to counteract the potential racism narrative.
 

radsoxfan

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On its surface, the Celtics actions strike me as actions taken either with knowledge or fear of a coming lawsuit. The addition of harassment or unsafe workplace claims into the story would make a lot of sense imo.
Yeah, the story changes entirely if it morphs from consensual affair into harassment. If the woman went to the team with complaints and they were substantiated by further investigation, some of this starts to make more sense. You have to take some action at that point.

I don't know when this also turns into a "league issue" to some degree though? I also am not sure why they didn't just fire him, but maybe an exit is in the works after some legal maneuvering.
 

radsoxfan

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Just a side issue that maybe I’m only interested in, but I wonder if the harassment gets out if not to counteract the potential racism narrative.
I think it puts their entire response in a different light.

Counteracts not just the racism narrative but also the general criticisms of their actions.
 

bosockboy

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Seems like she was maybe breaking it off and he wasn’t having it. Like anything today, there’s probably DM’s and text’s available.
 

radsoxfan

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If this is what happened, it makes no sense not to fire him. Why a suspension at all?
Not sure, maybe they just know training camp is starting soon, there is no way Ime should be coaching, and they took this initial step while they work out the details.

The statement they released didn't say they look forward to his return for the 2023-2024 season. It basically said "he's gone, we just haven't figured out the best way to do it yet".
 

radsoxfan

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Seems like she was maybe breaking it off and he wasn’t having it. Like anything today, there’s probably DM’s and text’s available.
Yup.

She got fed up with the harassment, complained, showed people her phone... adios Ime.
 

lars10

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Just a side issue that maybe I’m only interested in, but I wonder if the harassment gets out if not to counteract the potential racism narrative.
Given how you usually come across in situations like this.. I'm kind of thrown off that this is your take. Why isn't it more possible that the Celtics were ok with what was going on until Ime crossed a line and didn't stop harassing a woman that was no longer accepting of his advances after he was told multiples times not to?.. vs that they were worried that this would be seen as being racist so they came up with a narrative?

Searching google this suspension is unprecedented.. It's basically the same suspension Artest was given.

edit: I think I missed your point initially.. and what you're saying makes sense.
 
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riboflav

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With this new report or updated one, wow, what a very fast fall from grace. Not that that is our main concern. But, man, what must be going on with Udoka and his head that he put everything seemingly great in his life at risk like this. Wow.
 

lars10

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If this is what happened, it makes no sense not to fire him. Why a suspension at all?
Perhaps it's a fairly unique situation that hasn't been dealt with before... and given that Ime has a contract with the Celtics that they are/were worried about wrongful termination?
 

EvilEmpire

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Yeah. It sure seems like the Celtics are buying time with the suspension.

More time to investigate allegations, legal stuff to sort through, and maybe some sensitivity to player concerns about a rush to judgment that an immediate firing would bring more of than just the initial suspension.
 

riboflav

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If there is more to this, many people in this thread embarrassingly shit all over themselves. Disciplining the coach to avoid a situation where your organization turns into a cesspool like the Dallas Mavericks, where sexual harassment among other things becomes normalized is a good thing. Trying to make me your workplace safer for female employees or anyone who can be victimized by misconduct is good. It's possible not everything is a cynical calculation and that some things matter more than basketball.

Also, anyone who is trying to convince themselves that the Celtics did a racism because they punished an incidentally black man for bad behavior because of Anna Horford tweets is a fundamentally unserious person. You share this take with always wrongs like Stephen A. Smith and people who think Kobe's accuser was trying to bring him down because of his race. Be mindful of the company you keep.
I think you misread most responses to her tweet on this board. Most were concerned about how the players were going to perceive this which is a fine take on a sports message board. And especially a fine take when we have little to go on and perhaps they, the players, did too. My feeling is that now that we know Udoka was pursuing something unwanted as of July anyways, almost all and hopefully all posters will be united in bye bye Udoka.
 

djbayko

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Given how you usually come across in situations like this.. I'm kind of thrown off that this is your take. Why isn't it more possible that the Celtics were ok with what was going on until Ime crossed a line and didn't stop harassing a woman that was no longer accepting of his advances after he was told multiples times not to?.. vs that they were worried that this would be seen as being racist so they came up with a narrative?

Searching google this suspension is unprecedented.. It's basically the same suspension Artest was given.

edit: I think I missed your point initially.. and what you're saying makes sense.
I took his question to be asking whether this true information would have leaked absent the racism accusations - not if the Celtics made the new information up whole cloth.

If that was his question, we'll never know for sure. I think it's natural for this story to slowly unfold via leaks from various sources. So the release of this information is consistent with both scenarios IMO.
 

Marciano490

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Yeah @djbayko has it. Whether the Celtics would’ve kept that quiet so long as Ime walked away if not for the accusations of racism.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If this is what happened, it makes no sense not to fire him. Why a suspension at all?
The Celtics attorneys likely advised the Celtics to handle this with care to avoid a lawsuit. There would likely be negotiations taking place to come up with a settlement agreement which in this case wouldn’t happen overnight. In the meantime, a suspension is the only option as a placeholder until this agreement is reached.
 
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JFK35

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Edit: didn’t see the update to the article.

If there is even a drop of non-consensual to this then my whole attitude changes.
 

Justthetippett

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Shams just tweeted an update to his article on the matter, floating it became not fully consensual recently.

https://theathletic.com/3617945/2022/09/22/celtics-ime-udoka-discipline/
This makes it worse, and also helps explain the response. Leaks only coming from one side right now, it seems. It’ll be interesting to see if/when Ime’s camp decides to leak their version of events through is own sources. From his statement I think he knows he fucked up to some extent, but if he feels the public story is getting distorted he might feel compelled to do something about that.
 

Eddie Jurak

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On the Al's sister thing. It is fully possible that players will feel what she said, I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure if the Lakers had dropped Kobe when he was accused of rape, lots of players would have been livid, but it still would have been the right thing to do.
Anna Horford is great, but she's also not one to hold back on her thoughts for better or worse. I would not assume that she is speaking for Al and the players here - she could be, but she could also be giving her own gut reaction on hearing the initial news. I imagine we will get closer to the truth of this as we start to get player reactions and see how training camp goes.

I think the point you made earlier is also right. If the Celtics were actually railroading their highly successful rookie coach right before his second training camp, I doubt Ime would have made a short statement accepting responsibility and then gone silent.

Someone suggested that the Celtics should go for a more established veteran coach rather than Mazzulla. I don't think so, at least not in the short term.

Ime changed a lot of things about how the Celtics played last year and it took the team several months to get the hang of it. Staying in-house brings some continuity which I think could be good on this team. I would like to see them add an experienced veteran to the bench, provided it is the right one. They need to build on what they accomplished last eyar, not start from scratch.

Also, Mazzulla was interviewed for coaching jobs last offseason, so he is getting to that point where the Celtics likely weren't going to retain him for too much longer.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Total guess here at what might raise this to the level of cutting the cord; but possible he coerced or threatened the woman to be quiet and she reported it to management. An angle I haven’t heard yet.
But wouldn't it then be a league, and potentially LEO, matter?

huh? What did you hear? Who did you hear it from?
His best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw IME out at 31 Flavors last night.
 
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benhogan

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Yeah. It sure seems like the Celtics are buying time with the suspension.

More time to investigate allegations, legal stuff to sort through, and maybe some sensitivity to player concerns about a rush to judgment that an immediate firing would bring more of than just the initial suspension.
100% this.

Much like Silver's move with Sarver. The NBA initially caught criticism but they let the market (players/sponsors/fans) decide Sarver's fate by suspending him for a year. Sarver gets his $$$ but is OUT

Much like the NBA, the Celtics will catch criticism for a "suspension". In the meantime, they will try to negotiate settlements with all parties to lessen the damage. IME's agent is probably trying to get him some $$$ before he is officially OUT
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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So it sounds like we were days from a terrible look for the franchise, as opposed to just Ime. First the ESPN scroll "Celtics employee seeks restraining order against Ime Udoka", then the follow up reporting "Celtics knew about relationship in July and harrassment earlier this month".

If this went unchecked they'd be no better than those college football factories where professors, students and citizens can take abuse at the hands of the players and coaches with no repercussion.
 

Eddie Jurak

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FWIW, the Anna Horford tweet accusing the Celtics of racism has been deleted.
Not surprised.

Edit: BTW, should we consider a new thread for on-court impact of this? Is Mazulla the right hire as interirm coach, how are the players going to deal with this, etc.? Those are all very discussion-worthy topics but not directly related to the substance and severity of Ime's offense and the appropriateness of the Celtics response.
 

4 6 3 DP

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So the original leaker comes out with a story that omits the harassment.

Story twists in the wind for a day with everyone speculating why punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime (or feels heavy anyways)

Different reporter (I think woj broke the first one) I think breaks part 2 of the story, which again has odd wording- the harassing behavior was reported later after three two parties has suggested to the Celtics that everything was consensual, but does not give a timeframe for when the harassing occurred (we are assuming it was later but all we know from report is that it was reported later).

Just beyond bizarre.
 

GreyisGone

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So the original leaker comes out with a story that omits the harassment.

Story twists in the wind for a day with everyone speculating why punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime (or feels heavy anyways)

Different reporter (I think woj broke the first one) I think breaks part 2 of the story, which again has odd wording- the harassing behavior was reported later after three two parties has suggested to the Celtics that everything was consensual, but does not give a timeframe for when the harassing occurred (we are assuming it was later but all we know from report is that it was reported later).

Just beyond bizarre.
Is it? Seems like Ime’s team originally leaked getting out ahead of it and now information is starting to come from inside the Celtics organization.

At the end of the day Woj, Shams, and co are just pawns spreading messages for others.
 

BringBackMo

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I find it funny that people seem to believe that all reporting in these situations is merely the regurgitation of strategic “leaks” from interested parties. Does that sometimes happen? Of course. But Woj and Shams are excellent reporters with sources throughout every organization in the league. A story like this certainly would have become fairly well know throughout the Celtics. Good reporters work sources, who may themselves not be directly involved in what’s going on but who may credibly know the broad outlines, or even some specific details. In daily (hourly) journalism, you don’t wait until you have pieced together the entire story. You “go with what you know” and then update often with “new news.” Viewed through that lens, rather than one in which the Celtics have been spoon feeding leaks strategically to gullible reporters, the arc of the reporting in this story so far makes complete sense.
 

GreyisGone

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I find it funny that people seem to believe that all reporting in these situations is merely the regurgitation of strategic “leaks” from interested parties. Does that sometimes happen? Of course. But Woj and Shams are excellent reporters with sources throughout every organization in the league. A story like this certainly would have become fairly well know throughout the Celtics. Good reporters work sources, who may themselves not be directly involved in what’s going on but who may credibly know the broad outlines, or even some specific details. In daily (hourly) journalism, you don’t wait until you have pieced together the entire story. You “go with what you know” and then update often with “new news.” Viewed through that lens, rather than one in which the Celtics have been spoon feeding leaks strategically to gullible reporters, the arc of the reporting in this story so far makes complete sense.
99% of the time all the key players have the same story at the same moment. This isn’t the Pentagon Papers, it’s almost always strategic and for PR purposes. The whole reason for the shift to suspending him was apparently their concern it wasn’t consensual and then suddenly it’s leaked to Woj the night before the meeting to decide his fate and it’s reported as “consensual”. That’s screams Ime’s camp leaked it.