I Believe in Time Lord...Why Can't You?

cardiacs

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Jaylen did the same thing at least once last night as well. He was going to dish, saw TL parked in a good spot underneath, and jacked it.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I especially liked a play he had late where he was tight to the basket and deflected the ball to Brown (I think) just to the right of the basket. Brown missed the shot, but it was a nice combo of vision and execution.
It was JB and it wasn't a deflection - it was an attempted lob pass that went awry and TL had to pass it back to JB.

Westerholm had a tweet about this: "Rob Williams says of his lob-throwing teammates, Jaylen is the only one who "throws the ball any which way." "

View: https://twitter.com/Tom_NBA/status/1366966809371570177?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1366966809371570177%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boston.com%2Fsports%2Fboston-celtics%2F2021%2F03%2F03%2Fkemba-walker-robert-williams
 

chilidawg

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It was JB and it wasn't a deflection - it was an attempted lob pass that went awry and TL had to pass it back to JB.

Westerholm had a tweet about this: "Rob Williams says of his lob-throwing teammates, Jaylen is the only one who "throws the ball any which way." "

View: https://twitter.com/Tom_NBA/status/1366966809371570177?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1366966809371570177%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boston.com%2Fsports%2Fboston-celtics%2F2021%2F03%2F03%2Fkemba-walker-robert-williams
Yeah the pass hit the backboard, I guess you could hope that was jaylen's intention. TL should have dunked it anyway, slacker.
 

TripleOT

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The adjustment Brad made on offense with TL was key to opening things up for Kemba and JT.
Instead of TL setting a high pic for one of them, with the other one on the opposite side of the floor, TL would veer off and receive the ball in the slot, with both shooters on the same side, on the other side of the floor. He would dribble toward them, and one would cut for the high dribble handoff. If that was covered, the other would fade on his original side for a three.

This action worked a bunch of times in the fourth, including the big Tatum right corner three when he had plenty of time to shoot.

Once TL gets comfortable enough to pop up to catch the ball up top, and then either dribble handoff, pass, ore one dribble and explode to the rim for the dunk, he’s going to be trouble at both ends of the court.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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The adjustment Brad made on offense with TL was key to opening things up for Kemba and JT.
Instead of TL setting a high pic for one of them, with the other one on the opposite side of the floor, TL would veer off and receive the ball in the slot, with both shooters on the same side, on the other side of the floor. He would dribble toward them, and one would cut for the high dribble handoff. If that was covered, the other would fade on his original side for a three.

This action worked a bunch of times in the fourth, including the big Tatum right corner three when he had plenty of time to shoot.

Once TL gets comfortable enough to pop up to catch the ball up top, and then either dribble handoff, pass, ore one dribble and explode to the rim for the dunk, he’s going to be trouble at both ends of the court.
Yes, you can see he’s working hard on ball handling so he can take a couple dribbles at the top and keep his options open.

If he does get that “explode to the basket” thing down, watch out for sure.
 

lovegtm

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Yes, you can see he’s working hard on ball handling so he can take a couple dribbles at the top and keep his options open.

If he does get that “explode to the basket” thing down, watch out for sure.
He's a good enough passer that even that one hard dribble on the short roll unlocks interesting passing options (the Teague 3 yesterday was a good example).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The adjustment Brad made on offense with TL was key to opening things up for Kemba and JT.
Instead of TL setting a high pic for one of them, with the other one on the opposite side of the floor, TL would veer off and receive the ball in the slot, with both shooters on the same side, on the other side of the floor. He would dribble toward them, and one would cut for the high dribble handoff. If that was covered, the other would fade on his original side for a three.

This action worked a bunch of times in the fourth, including the big Tatum right corner three when he had plenty of time to shoot.

Once TL gets comfortable enough to pop up to catch the ball up top, and then either dribble handoff, pass, ore one dribble and explode to the rim for the dunk, he’s going to be trouble at both ends of the court.
Minor quibble - if you go back and look at the highlights above, you'll see that the play you point out was used on the KW / TL lob but on the JT corner 3, KW and JT were opposite.

On JT corner 3, TL comes out to above the top of the key. JT gives him the ball and cuts towards the corner with Semi setting a pick. Semi's man attempted to pick off the pass to JT and failed, which lead to the wide-open 3.

The KW/TL lob play starts at 2:25 of the highlights; the JT open 3 play starts at 2:41.
 

Euclis20

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A minor point, but TL also wins his jump balls, which can make a difference when a call is reversed while he is on the floor. The silver lining of the George foul on Tatum being overturned is that TL best Ibaka (despite the toss being slanted toward Serge) and the Celtics got a fresh 24
A silver lining of the collapse against the Pelicans was seeing Williams win 3 straight jump balls against Zion in OT (the third jump ball was stolen away by the Pelicans, but Rob still beat Zion to the ball). Considering Zion is rightfully considered the strongest fastest leaper in the league, it was incredible to see. Maybe the latter was winded (Zion played a career high in minutes), but still noteworthy.
 

lovegtm

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A silver lining of the collapse against the Pelicans was seeing Williams win 3 straight jump balls against Zion in OT (the third jump ball was stolen away by the Pelicans, but Rob still beat Zion to the ball). Considering Zion is rightfully considered the strongest fastest leaper in the league, it was incredible to see. Maybe the latter was winded (Zion played a career high in minutes), but still noteworthy.
Rob is an elite leaper as well, and has a HUGE standing reach advantage on Zion. TL measured at 9'4" standing reach IIRC, which is only an inch less than Embiid's. Zion's is 8'7". It's not easy to make up 9 inch gaps.
 

slamminsammya

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Rob is an elite leaper as well, and has a HUGE standing reach advantage on Zion. TL measured at 9'4" standing reach IIRC, which is only an inch less than Embiid's. Zion's is 8'7". It's not easy to make up 9 inch gaps.
Also worth mentioning jumping with a running start and jumping from a standstill are different skills and not every guy who is good at one is good at the other.
 

Euclis20

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Rob is an elite leaper as well, and has a HUGE standing reach advantage on Zion. TL measured at 9'4" standing reach IIRC, which is only an inch less than Embiid's. Zion's is 8'7". It's not easy to make up 9 inch gaps.
Fair enough, Zion is only and inch or two shorter and his wingspan is not particularly impressive (6'10) compared with his other attributes.
 

NomarsFool

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I have no idea if it’s real or not, but a lot of people talk about Zion’s second jump ability, which can be very useful in real-time play for a rebound or a block, but is obviously not useful in a jump ball.
 

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In a league full of amazing athletes (with Zion being in the top 5% of those) I would match TL up against anyone when it came to physical tools.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Time Lord has a ridiculous wingspan of 7'6, which is also the same as Embiid's. Tatum's wingspan is only 6'10 too, but an 8'11 standing reach. Not TL, but not Zions.

It's why all the talk about TL being out of position a lot but still being good is amusing. He's like that CF who doesn't really get good reads but his speed makes up for it. TL's length and athleticism let him get away with a lot. If/when he ever figures it out, he's going to be insanely good on defense. He's always going to rack up deflections but with some experience, he's going to be an absolute terror in the passing lanes. On the offensive side, we've all see his creativity when it comes to passing. It hasn't been a big part of his game but it's there on the backburner. He's also added some range this year, though I'm not sure how far his range is going to extend.

He's like a poor mans Hakeem.

Rate stats first 3 years:
Hakeem: 17.6% rebound rate, 8.6% assist rate, 2.2% steal rate, 4.9% block rate, 12.7% TO%, 25.3% Usage
Time Lord: 18.2% rebound rate, 8.4% assist rate, 2.5% steal rate, 9.3% block rate, 16.5% TO, 15.5% Usage

Pretty remarkable how similar those lines are outside of TO rate. The Usage rate is obviously why TL is a poor mans Hakeem. I hate using that comp because I feel calling TL a poor man's Hakeem is underselling Hakeem. In the Jordan era, I had Hakeem at #2. 3800+ blocks, 3000+ assists, 2100+ steals, 13000+ rebounds, almost 27000 points. I just don't like the Capela comp. Marcus Camby might work as a comp but I think TL will score a bit more if he becomes that 25-30 minute player we want him to become. It'd be hard not to.

Again, I hate using the comp but the rate stats are the rate stats. None of those stats factor in scoring either, where Hakeem would have a huge, huge advantage. That and Hakeem played 8141 minutes to TL's 1116. Semi played 1150 minutes his rookie year.
 

lovegtm

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Fair enough, Zion is only and inch or two shorter and his wingspan is not particularly impressive (6'10) compared with his other attributes.
Yeah, it’s important to remember that height is basically meaningless for these things relative to standing reach, at least until they change jumpball rules to only allow hitting it with your head.

Not to jump on you, I just get annoyed by the whole “the Celtics centers are all short!” thing, when in reality, Rob is an insanely tall human being in the ways that matter for this sport.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah, it’s important to remember that height is basically meaningless for these things relative to standing reach, at least until they change jumpball rules to only allow hitting it with your head.

Not to jump on you, I just get annoyed by the whole “the Celtics centers are all short!” thing, when in reality, Rob is an insanely tall human being in the ways that matter for this sport.
What is height actually good for? Vison and obstructing vision?
 

mwonow

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Is it just the timing that has me thinking of TL as the JBJ of the hardcourt?
 

NomarsFool

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It seems like wingspan has been all the rage recently, which is useful when thinking about deflecting passes - but not as useful for most of the other basketball related things on the court. Certainly, wingspan is going to have a strong correlation with standing reach, but when we are looking at a matter of inches, the wingspan/standing reach differential for a wide player is going to matter compared to a narrow player.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Say it again!

Agree with NomarsFool that wingspan is pretty useful for perimeter guys and nail defenders. Mikal Bridges and Robert Covington type guys who can really use it to get into passing lanes and get deflections.

Rob's stock% isn't just a result of his physical tools- I think in some respects, he has legitimately good "instincts"; I think this is reflected in his steal%; blocks we'd mostly expect from his standing reach and pogo legs, but he's shown good anticipation in putting one of the best steal rates in the league. He sees things quickly, he just needs to slow things down, stay disciplined, and not overreact. Long term, it's a good problem for a young guy to have, and he's already showing a lot of progress. I get the sense he responds well to positive reinforcement, so I think this stretch of him playing well in important minutes is huge for his development.
 
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bakahump

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I am not buying that TL is 6'8.

He stands next to Tatum and is appears to be 2ish inches taller. Theis too. And he looks "bigger" then Theis despite his listed 245 to TLs 237.

Am I crazy?
 

Euclis20

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Yeah, it’s important to remember that height is basically meaningless for these things relative to standing reach, at least until they change jumpball rules to only allow hitting it with your head.

Not to jump on you, I just get annoyed by the whole “the Celtics centers are all short!” thing, when in reality, Rob is an insanely tall human being in the ways that matter for this sport.
No worries, although my mistake was on the other end. I know Williams plays a lot taller than his listed height, I was more surprised that Zion's wingspan was just 6'10 (although his bulk and hops obviously have him playing bigger as well).
 

HomeRunBaker

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I am not buying that TL is 6'8.

He stands next to Tatum and is appears to be 2ish inches taller. Theis too. And he looks "bigger" then Theis despite his listed 245 to TLs 237.

Am I crazy?
He was measured at 6-9 with shoes at the Combine. It’s always possible he grew an inch since then. Nobody ever gets an “official” measurement after the draft as far as I’ve ever known. They just list whatever number they want to list. That’s how I was listed when I was in college......they asked me. Lol.

Wingspan helps a lot more than only defending passing lanes and close outs. It’s obv crucial in these areas but it’s also easier for a ball handler with longer wingspan to get to their spots with the ball than one with alligator arms. Defenders can’t poke the ball away so backing him down is easier as well and of course it’s important in getting your perimeter shot off......which is where we see Pritchard struggling with against pressure right now.
 

NomarsFool

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No worries, although my mistake was on the other end. I know Williams plays a lot taller than his listed height, I was more surprised that Zion's wingspan was just 6'10 (although his bulk and hops obviously have him playing bigger as well).
Given how wide he is, he might actually have 'short' arms with that wingspan.
 

chilidawg

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I am not buying that TL is 6'8.

He stands next to Tatum and is appears to be 2ish inches taller. Theis too. And he looks "bigger" then Theis despite his listed 245 to TLs 237.

Am I crazy?
No. I think upper body wise TL is as developed as Thompson or Theis. He does seem a little "light in the pants", and that means he struggles a little more holding his ground against bigger low post guys. The difference isn't huge though. So much of his value is in his explosiveness that I think you don't want him putting on much more weight.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He was measured at 6-9 with shoes at the Combine. It’s always possible he grew an inch since then. Nobody ever gets an “official” measurement after the draft as far as I’ve ever known. They just list whatever number they want to list. That’s how I was listed when I was in college......they asked me. Lol.
Yeah, I was always listed taller in college than I actually was.

Of course, that's because they wanted our debate team to intimidate the other debate team but not sure how well that worked.
 

lovegtm

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He was measured at 6-9 with shoes at the Combine. It’s always possible he grew an inch since then. Nobody ever gets an “official” measurement after the draft as far as I’ve ever known. They just list whatever number they want to list. That’s how I was listed when I was in college......they asked me. Lol.

Wingspan helps a lot more than only defending passing lanes and close outs. It’s obv crucial in these areas but it’s also easier for a ball handler with longer wingspan to get to their spots with the ball than one with alligator arms. Defenders can’t poke the ball away so backing him down is easier as well and of course it’s important in getting your perimeter shot off......which is where we see Pritchard struggling with against pressure right now.
The “no official measurements after the combine” was true until last year, when they started making teams submit their players’ true heights without shoes, and everybody lost an inch or two.

It’s entirely possible that Rob has grown even since then, however. In which case his standing reach is getting into Embiid/Gobert territory.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The “no official measurements after the combine” was true until last year, when they started making teams submit their players’ true heights without shoes, and everybody lost an inch or two.

It’s entirely possible that Rob has grown even since then, however. In which case his standing reach is getting into Embiid/Gobert territory.
How is it the first time I’m hearing about this? Interesting that TL was one of the guys who lost two inches from 6-10 to 6-8 which is consistent with his draft measurement.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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pogo legs,
I think it's funny that TT calls him "Pogo," since that would be a great nickname for him. Not just because of his legs but also because, "We have met the enemy and he is us" seems like an apt description of his career thus far.

I know it's doubtful that DA will make any major moves this season but if I'm Danny right now, TL is untouchable.
 

lovegtm

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Is TL an option as a Giannis-stopper? It seems like his length and improved core strength would be just what the doctor ordered, and Giannis' jumper is bad enough that there's no reason to bite on those fakes. Maybe I'm just smoking too much green-colored stuff.
 

NomarsFool

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It was an interesting quote from CBS after Theis' 7 minutes of playing time last night:

"Well I think anytime we can save Theis minutes, just because of the minutes he’s played the last two years, it’s a good thing,” Stevens said. “But tonight was just, they were impossible to play with two bigs. And if you even go back to our game at Toronto, or at Tampa, when we played, we were getting killed in the first half, and then we started small in the second. So, we knew that we would probably go to that at some point, and then you’re just playing your gut on who you think can be most impactful.

“I thought Tristan and Rob were both pretty good tonight, and so they gave us something. Theis is a huge part of us and we need him badly going forward, but tonight I thought those other two guys were good.”

I thought TT and RW were on the floor quite a bit together - but maybe that was not the case.
 

jimv

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He was measured at 6-9 with shoes at the Combine. It’s always possible he grew an inch since then. Nobody ever gets an “official” measurement after the draft as far as I’ve ever known. They just list whatever number they want to list. That’s how I was listed when I was in college......they asked me. Lol.
This sort of thing has been going forever. Bill Walton was listed at 6' 11 3/4" because he didn't want to be known as a "7 foot freak." Photos of him next to the 7' 1/2" Robert Parish tell a different story, 7' 2" at least
 

slamminsammya

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Is TL an option as a Giannis-stopper? It seems like his length and improved core strength would be just what the doctor ordered, and Giannis' jumper is bad enough that there's no reason to bite on those fakes. Maybe I'm just smoking too much green-colored stuff.
I don't think TL has the balance to stay on his feet against that kind of power. He still gets pushed around a bit and falls over a lot.

EDIT: I think the play is to have TL on the floor with Giannis but not guarding him so he can help and alter shots after Giannis has already made a move.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I thought TT and RW were on the floor quite a bit together - but maybe that was not the case.
NBA.com says that they were not. DT and TT had the aforementioned 7 minutes but it was GW and Semi who played next to RW and TT.

Semi + TT = 3 minutes
Semi + RW = 5 mins
GW + TT = 6 mins
GW + RW = 15 mins
 

TripleOT

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I’ve been on the floor near TL. I’m 6’4 and he’s not just four inches taller than me. I’d say 6’10”
 

reggiecleveland

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Is TL an option as a Giannis-stopper? It seems like his length and improved core strength would be just what the doctor ordered, and Giannis' jumper is bad enough that there's no reason to bite on those fakes. Maybe I'm just smoking too much green-colored stuff.
yes and no. He is the guy to have big impact on guarding the GA, but not as the guy on him. Gianis brings the ball up a lot, plays facing the hoop far more than in the post. A few problems. The cletics best bet is to plan their rotations so that when Gianis attacks the rim a rested TL is waiting for him. Rob probably ends up on poster once or twice, but can probably really limit GA's attacking the rim shooting % vs the Celts below the seemingly 125%. TL is getting a rep, which also means he will not get called for a foul as often as last year.

1. For TL to be able to pick up Gianis he would have to not crash the boards, and not hang around the rim on O. I understand he's a dangerous guy to criticize in the recent euphoria, but that is here he is valuable and Theis, Thompson are much better at the hand off game at the top. So having TL guard Gianis makes him much less valuable on offence, or creates situations where somebody else is guarding Gianis any time the Cs don't score.

2. Most of what TL has don well is .5-2 second bursts. I am ready for the angry responses, but he is not super at being in the right spot, staying in contact with his check. But he is phenomenal at the the deciding instant of a play if he is anywhere near it. He would not be great at chasing the freak around, having to not only shuffle more than twice but deal with crossovers, spins etc. No big guy since KG really would be, which is why GA is an MVP.

3. He would be gassed in 2 minutes,
 

the moops

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I’ve been on the floor near TL. I’m 6’4 and he’s not just four inches taller than me. I’d say 6’10”
They can track how close players are to one another, and how far they travel on the floor - you think there would be some tech that would just extrapolate someone's height
 

benhogan

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Last night was the first time TL has topped 23mins this season. Brad has played him over 20mins 3 of the last 4 games (7 times all season). Brad wants to play all three of his Centers so he may continue with the two BIG rotations, even when Marcus returns. In order to get TL more minutes, CBS should pair TL with Theis post-All-Star break.

Out of ALL the two-man lineups Boston has displayed this season with at least 40 minutes together, TL/Theis (66mins) have the best net rating 120.6 / 92.5 / +28.1. By comparison, TT is Theis’ (356 mins) second-worst pairing in terms of a two-man lineup 113.7 / 113.6 / +.1

TL holds the best true shooting percentage, box plus-minus, steals and blocks percentage, as well as offensive and defensive rating on the team. Besides trading for a rotational wing, getting Rob more minutes needs to be a priority post AS game.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&GroupQuantity=2&TeamID=1610612738&sort=GROUP_NAME&dir=-1
 

reggiecleveland

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Last night was the first time TL has topped 23mins this season. Brad has played him over 20mins 3 of the last 4 games (7 times all season). Brad wants to play all three of his Centers so he may continue with the two BIG rotations, even when Marcus returns. In order to get TL more minutes, CBS should pair TL with Theis post-All-Star break.

Out of ALL the two-man lineups Boston has displayed this season with at least 40 minutes together, TL/Theis (66mins) have the best net rating 120.6 / 92.5 / +28.1. By comparison, TT is Theis’ (356 mins) second-worst pairing in terms of a two-man lineup 113.7 / 113.6 / +.1

TL holds the best true shooting percentage, box plus-minus, steals and blocks percentage, as well as offensive and defensive rating on the team. Besides trading for a rotational wing, getting Rob more minutes needs to be a priority post AS game.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&GroupQuantity=2&TeamID=1610612738&sort=GROUP_NAME&dir=-1
I know you really really love lineup plus minus, but it has limits. Theis TT we're starting, and playing against starters, and most of the time together was early when TT was not in shape.

Charlie Huddy
 

benhogan

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I know you really really love lineup plus minus, but it has limits. Theis TT we're starting, and playing against starters, and most of the time together was early when TT was not in shape.

Charlie Huddy
Feel free to pick any metric you like. I just like when the Celtics play players that fit better, it's not really complicated. I have zero bias
+/- over half a season is just a decent way to show both sides of the floor when you play these BIGs together.

We could also flip the script and ask why are Theis/Tristan so pedestrian together when they mostly share the floor with Tatum, Brown, Kemba, Smart? The Celtics should expect a lot more out of a unit that has 2 All-Stars on it IMO. Early season TT rust was some of it, that's fair.

Not sure why there is resistance to a little adjustment during the regular season? It does feel like Brad is trending that way anyways
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Is TL an option as a Giannis-stopper? It seems like his length and improved core strength would be just what the doctor ordered, and Giannis' jumper is bad enough that there's no reason to bite on those fakes. Maybe I'm just smoking too much green-colored stuff.
TL is best used defending the worst offensive front court player, so long that he doesn’t make his living behind the 3-pt arc, to allow the best part of his game to shine......off the ball rim protection. Two reasons for this,.....one, he is an ordinary on the ball defender who can be exploited by stronger veterans who understand how to leverage their body against him to gain position. And two, if he is on the ball it eliminates his greatest strength of weak side rim protection.
 

lovegtm

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TL is best used defending the worst offensive front court player, so long that he doesn’t make his living behind the 3-pt arc, to allow the best part of his game to shine......off the ball rim protection. Two reasons for this,.....one, he is an ordinary on the ball defender who can be exploited by stronger veterans who understand how to leverage their body against him to gain position. And two, if he is on the ball it eliminates his greatest strength of weak side rim protection.
Sounds about right.