How do you feel about the Pats today?

Njal

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Apr 23, 2010
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The Patriots have two good players, no organization, and owners who seem to want to meddle. The Lions were something like 79-112 over 12 years with Matt Stafford. That's about where I'd set my expectations.
 

BusRaker

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Aug 11, 2006
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Hungover from shitting away the multiple prime picks we would have received trading down from 1 to 4 then perhaps again down to ~10 slot.

Then again I feel like the Pats have officially cleaned house albeit with the same ownership, not that I minded BB and didn't wanted him canned. This will make it attractive to a new head coach like a savvy home buyer reimagining a bare house rather than one that's been pre-furnished and updated based on the owner's preferences tastes to quickly turn the unit. And with a nice new HVAC system in Drake Maye.

Then again I feel like we are headed down the Jacksonville Jags path of repeated failed rebuilds.
 

E5 Yaz

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I feel the same as I did yesterday. And the day before. Etc.
I think they are in for a long, long haul and whoever they choose as the new coach might be gone by the time they are good again
 

NoXInNixon

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The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
 

bsan34

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I can't imagine how miserable this fanbase would be if they hadn't won 6 Super Bowls. Good God.

They have a major rebuild in front of them. They appear to have done the hardest part (draft a QB). They took care of the other most pressing need yesterday (fire the very incompetent coach). Once you have QB and coach in place, you can figure the rest out pretty quickly when you have a top 5 draft pick and a very clean cap sheet.
 

Ralphwiggum

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The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
Um, ok. I mean, yeah things suck now and it looks like a long road back, but I don't think how the Patriots were run 30+ years ago has any bearing on whether they'll be laughing stocks again over a long period of time (you could argue they kind of already are given this year's team and the one-and-done failed Mayo experiment, but things can change quickly).

Plus winning a Super Bowl is really fucking hard. They could hire a great coach, Maye could end up being a Top 10 QB and they might have a great 5-8 year run, not win a Super Bowl, but still be a good and interesting team with deep playoff runs that is worth watching. I'll take that right now over what we've seen the last two years. I know winning a Super Bowl should be every franchise's ultimate goal, but as fans expecting that to happen over any short time frame is unrealistic (unless like the Pats and now the Chiefs you somehow end up with the best QB and best coach on the same team). If Buffalo doesn't get over the KC hump this year who knows if Allen ever even gets into a SB, the Lions have a great team this year they've never played in the damn game in their history. The Ravens and Steelers are both well run franchises that are competitive most every year and neither has won a SB in over a decade. Going to 9 and winning 6 over a relatively short period of time really broke people's brains in terms of how hard it actually is to accomplish even once.
 
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Youkilis vs Wild

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The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
I'd still say it was all worth it, if so.
 

johnmd20

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I can't imagine how miserable this fanbase would be if they hadn't won 6 Super Bowls. Good God.
I can. They would be Browns fans. And that is much, much worse, much uglier, much more toxic.

What do you expect, people to be celebrating the fact that the Pats are the worst team over the last two seasons?
 

johnmd20

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I'd still say it was all worth it, if so.
It is worth it. Banners fly forever.

Tom Brady was one of one. He left and the team got worse and then got much much MUCH worse. Alas, be happy that it happened, not sad that it's over. There is always a chance to turn it around.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,506
The Patriots have two good players, no organization, and owners who seem to want to meddle. The Lions were something like 79-112 over 12 years with Matt Stafford. That's about where I'd set my expectations.
this is basically where I’m at.

There’s no reason to think Kraft, Wolf and Groh won’t turn this into the Stafford era Lions. Might get a nice year or two, and Maye should be able to keep the team mildly competitive, but it’s going to be a clown show based on the way things have gone and look to be headed (keeping Wolf, seemingly handing Vrabel the job)
 

lexrageorge

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this is basically where I’m at.

There’s no reason to think Kraft, Wolf and Groh won’t turn this into the Stafford era Lions. Might get a nice year or two, and Maye should be able to keep the team mildly competitive, but it’s going to be a clown show based on the way things have gone and look to be headed (keeping Wolf, seemingly handing Vrabel the job)
You seem to have a lot of certainty that the bolded is set in stone already, far more certainty than most reporters that make a living covering the team and league and who therefore have a number of inside contacts to rely upon.
 

bsan34

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Jul 31, 2006
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I can. They would be Browns fans. And that is much, much worse, much uglier, much more toxic.

What do you expect, people to be celebrating the fact that the Pats are the worst team over the last two seasons?
The path to no longer sucking is really obvious, and they've already taken the hardest step on that path.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,506
The path to no longer sucking is really obvious, and they've already taken the hardest step on that path.
or they could get another half decade like 2024

getting a promising QB is great. Critical, in fact. But developing him and building a coaching staff and roster around him is just as important and almost as difficult.
 
Apr 24, 2019
1,358
The team played their 3rd string QB for most of the game, emptied the bench, and had a ton of practice squad players on the field for large chunks of time. I know people here wanted Mayo to demand we run the ball into the line over and over, but how realistic is that? The players played hard and to win. That shouldn't be a surprise. Having said all that...

...just like a lot of you, I wish they had too. I feel happy that Mayo is gone, and that the Krafts - however imperfect their execution may ultimately be - believe urgent change is needed. It is. I'm excited to see what's next.
 

8slim

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Um, ok. I mean, yeah things suck now and it looks like a long road back, but I don't think how the Patriots were run 30+ years ago has any bearing on whether they'll be laughing stocks again over a long period of time (you could argue they kind of already are given this year's team and the one-and-done failed Mayo experiment, but things can change quickly).

Plus winning a Super Bowl is really fucking hard. They could hire a great coach, Maye could end up being a Top 10 QB and they might have a great 5-8 year run, not win a Super Bowl, but still be a good and interesting team with deep playoff runs that is worth watching. I'll take that right now over what we've seen the last two years. I know winning a Super Bowl should be every franchise's ultimate goal, but as fans expecting that to happen over any short time frame is unrealistic (unless like the Pats and now the Chiefs you somehow end up with the best QB and best coach on the same team). If Buffalo doesn't get over the KC hump this year who knows if Allen ever even gets into a SB, the Lions have a great team this year they've never played in the damn game in their history. The Ravens and Steelers are both well run franchises that are competitive most every year and neither has won a SB in over a decade. Going to 9 and winning 6 over a relatively short period of time really broke people's brains in terms of how hard it actually is to accomplish even once.
I was 12 in 1985, had only been following the NFL for 3-ish years, and vividly remember thinking how surreal it was that the Pats were in the Super Bowl. Our perennial joke of a franchise was in the biggest game in the world.

33 years later when we were in the 2018 SB -- the ELEVENTH appearance of my lifetime -- it was all pretty ho-hum.

We got to witness two decades of the greatest dynasty in football history. I'm not expecting a title in 3 years or whatever. I'd just like the Pats to build back up to being a plausible playoff team most years and playing meaningful games throughout the season.
 

ShaneTrot

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The team building has been poor for awhile. Sure, they have Maye, I just have no faith in Wolf to assemble a competent roster. This offensive line was one of the worst position groups I have ever seen on an NFL team.
 
Apr 24, 2019
1,358
The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
Jesus Christ.

You know the people over the years that I trust the most to be balanced and candid with their opinions - good, bad and ugly - about the Patriots, even through the Glory Years? The writers at patriots.com. They were the most realistically critical when the team was winning, and they've been pretty critical during the recent downtimes, including this year. But to a person they have been far less "woe is me" about this, due especially to the quality of the 2025 draft class. Obviously, we'd like to have more bites at the apple. But this particular #1 overall pick is pretty unlikely to bring a HAUL compared to previous seasons.

The prevailing wailing on this site seems, IMO, to be really over-the-top, especially for a board where more is expected than the usual dregs of the internet, but the quoted post possibly takes the cake. "Laughingstocks for the next decade or two?" Holy crap. Thanks to BB (may the Lord God on High bless and thank him), the last many years have left the cupboard bare. The Wolf administration has "helped." While the "win" yesterday is really frustrating, this draft class is rumored to be not nearly as good as other, more recent ones, and the organization put itself on a better track an HOUR after the season ended. Perhaps this isn't the time to go full-on frantic.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I can't imagine how miserable this fanbase would be if they hadn't won 6 Super Bowls. Good God.

They have a major rebuild in front of them. They appear to have done the hardest part (draft a QB). They took care of the other most pressing need yesterday (fire the very incompetent coach). Once you have QB and coach in place, you can figure the rest out pretty quickly when you have a top 5 draft pick and a very clean cap sheet.
You might, although whether ownership has the wisdom to replace Mayo with an upgrade and clean out the front office capable of doing anything "pretty quickly" is very much in question based on the last transition.
 

ObstructedView

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I feel like some of the "we lost picks" stuff coming out of yesterday's win is overblown. Recent examples like the post-championship Bucs and Rams have shown that organizations with limited draft capital can rebuild their rosters fairly quickly if they have the right type of leadership and approach. And as has been pointed out, this is not a blue-chip draft anyway. It's funny to me how quickly the obsession over the top pick became a preoccupation, when it wasn't even really on the radar before the week-17 Giants win - and now for many it seems like an existential disaster.
 

Granite Sox

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Worried about Maye’s Year 2 progress with an anticipated new offense and coaching.

Happy that Mayo is gone. He connected with the players, but I just don’t think he has a clue about any vision for a team, or how to coach up players and/or coordinate any phase of a team, or how to make in-game adjustments. He’s just not a very good football coach yet.

Hopeful that the next HC will give the players a dope slap. Mayo didn’t strike me as being accountable at all, and that seeped over to the players (”Rome wasn’t built in a day”… it was more like “Rome‘s burning, excuse me while I go play my fiddle. The fire will burn out eventually.”). During the sound bites I heard after RKK’s presser, they all loved Mayo but not a single player acknowledged that the reason Mayo got fired is because they (the players) didn’t play anywhere near good enough. It was a lot of “Not my decision to make. Oh well/shucks. It’s a business. Gotta move forward.” Wish they had gotten some sound from White. Guessing he (at least) would’ve been saaaaaalty.

Confident that they can approach .500 next year. I think they can challenge the Jets/Dolphins in the division, and the schedule will be soft enough to get 2-3 additional wins given the anticipated injection of talent and coaching. But they’re still at least two years away from the playoffs.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,506
I feel like some of the "we lost picks" stuff coming out of yesterday's win is overblown. Recent examples like the post-championship Bucs and Rams have shown that organizations with limited draft capital can rebuild their rosters fairly quickly if they have the right type of leadership and approach. And as has been pointed out, this is not a blue-chip draft anyway. It's funny to me how quickly the obsession over the top pick became a preoccupation, when it wasn't even really on the radar before the week-17 Giants win - and now for many it seems like an existential disaster.
the roster needs talent. The ability to trade the first pick for more assets (high draft picks) would have helped speed up the rebuild

Adding an extra 1st next year would have been extremely valuable

Not sure what Bucs rebuild you’re talking about. The one where they signed Brady and Gronk and already had Evans, Godwin, David, Devin White, Suh, JPP and others? They were a very good roster just a QB and gold coaching away from being good.

Id say that the current Lions are a good example as to why you need draft capital. It’s a lot more sustainable/likely to hit on first round picks than hope to find diamonds in the rough constantly.
 

ObstructedView

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the roster needs talent. The ability to trade the first pick for more assets (high draft picks) would have helped speed up the rebuild

Adding an extra 1st next year would have been extremely valuable

Not sure what Bucs rebuild you’re talking about. The one where they signed Brady and Gronk and already had Evans, Godwin, David, Devin White, Suh, JPP and others? They were a very good roster just a QB and gold coaching away from being good.

Id say that the current Lions are a good example as to why you need draft capital. It’s a lot more sustainable/likely to hit on first round picks than hope to find diamonds in the rough constantly.
I'm talking about the Bucs who most wrote off for dead after Brady and Gronk left, but who have managed to keep winning division titles with a roster that's largely turned over with the notable exception of Evans. Yes it's a crappy division, but they've been a playoff team. My point was that there's more than one way to do it. Either way you need to have the right people in charge, and have a bit of luck.

Fair point about draft capital, but I still don't think it's a make-or-break difference. And if we want to follow the Lions' model I guess we should be prepared for a long time in the wilderness.
 

rodderick

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Pretty good. They have the QB in place and basically endless money to play with, coupled with great draft position. If they nail the coaching staff there's no reason this team can't contend in a couple of years. Admittedly, that's a big "if", but still, there are way worse places to be as a last place team.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Patriots have two good players, no organization, and owners who seem to want to meddle. The Lions were something like 79-112 over 12 years with Matt Stafford. That's about where I'd set my expectations.
There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that.

I think the right view of the Patriots at this point is that of a team at the bottom, obviously, but it matters how they got here. They were a singular, 20-year dynasty that got old and crumbled, and, in the manner of these things, the crumbling happened gradually for a while and then all at once.

The Lions example is closer to decades of perpetual mediocrity with the occasional decent year or two thrown in.

I think a typical NFL rebuild happens more quickly then 12 years without getting there.

Bedard had a column the other day noting that the Mayo year was probably not all that costly to the organization, now that it is over. The worst part of it was stupidly throwing away the #1 pick. But allowing the on field product to bottom out for a year is probably not the worst thing in the world. Hanging for 4 years as the team gradually eroded under Belichick probably prevented the organization from addressing some of the difficult questions, modernizing its staff, thinking that there were a few quick fixes that could solve the team's problems.

Where they are now is better than where they were a year ago.

1. It looks like they have a franchise QB entering his second year.
2. The fact that they were relatively reserved in free agent spending last year means that they have a lot of money to spend this year.
3. They have strong draft position based on being the 4th worst team and the Judon pick.

All three of those things tend to make the team more attractive as a coaching destination.

The big negative is the evidence weakness of the roster. Just two potential star players (QB, CB), maybe 3 if you consider special teams (Marcus Jones).

Had BB stayed on this year, the Pats would have won more games because his defensive coaching acumen could have papered over some of the major flaws.

What happens next depends on making the right coaching hire, and putting him in position to succeed. The latter part means modernizing the front office and not going cheap on players, front office poersonnel, analytics, etc.

No guarantees they do that, but if they do do that, I don't think we're looking at 12 years of mediocrity, or anything close.
 

tims4wins

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There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that.

I think the right view of the Patriots at this point is that of a team at the bottom, obviously, but it matters how they got here. They were a singular, 20-year dynasty that got old and crumbled, and, in the manner of these things, the crumbling happened gradually for a while and then all at once.

The Lions example is closer to decades of perpetual mediocrity with the occasional decent year or two thrown in.

I think a typical NFL rebuild happens more quickly then 12 years without getting there.

Bedard had a column the other day noting that the Mayo year was probably not all that costly to the organization, now that it is over. The worst part of it was stupidly throwing away the #1 pick. But allowing the on field product to bottom out for a year is probably not the worst thing in the world. Hanging for 4 years as the team gradually eroded under Belichick probably prevented the organization from addressing some of the difficult questions, modernizing its staff, thinking that there were a few quick fixes that could solve the team's problems.

Where they are now is better than where they were a year ago.

1. It looks like they have a franchise QB entering his second year.
2. The fact that they were relatively reserved in free agent spending last year means that they have a lot of money to spend this year.
3. They have strong draft position based on being the 4th worst team and the Judon pick.

All three of those things tend to make the team more attractive as a coaching destination.

The big negative is the evidence weakness of the roster. Just two potential star players (QB, CB), maybe 3 if you consider special teams (Marcus Jones).

Had BB stayed on this year, the Pats would have won more games because his defensive coaching acumen could have papered over some of the major flaws.

What happens next depends on making the right coaching hire, and putting him in position to succeed. The latter part means modernizing the front office and not going cheap on players, front office poersonnel, analytics, etc.

No guarantees they do that, but if they do do that, I don't think we're looking at 12 years of mediocrity, or anything close.
I strongly agree with this post. Mayo didn't appear to do any long term damage. Wolf is possibly a different story but that's for another thread.

The only thing that truly sucks about the current situation looking forward is that this year's draft appears weak, especially with the lack of blue chip OTs and WRs. There is no Sewell or Chase to immediately bolster this offense and help Maye.
 

jsinger121

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Jul 25, 2005
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I strongly agree with this post. Mayo didn't appear to do any long term damage. Wolf is possibly a different story but that's for another thread.

The only thing that truly sucks about the current situation looking forward is that this year's draft appears weak, especially with the lack of blue chip OTs and WRs. There is no Sewell or Chase to immediately bolster this offense and help Maye.
While the draft doesn’t look good on paper there will probably be guys that turn into stars that no one thinks will be at this time. Basically the Patriots need to be on their game scouting drafting and developing to find late type gems like a Puka Nucua or even not a currently crazy Antonio Brown or a Tyreke Hill because those guys will happen from time to time
 

Pat Spillane

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Feb 12, 2021
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I feel much better now that Mayo was shown the door. Still wish we didn’t win that game yesterday but they can turn this around with right coach/front office. I feel like the coaching staff this year was so pathetic and that outside of the QBs developed no one.

The development part is tough. I think we all knew on draft day that they reached on every single pick. Everyone bar Maye was ranked way lower than picked. Polk was a 3rd round ranking efore the draft. Wallace way lower too. Draft was just awful bar Maye
 

bsan34

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Jul 31, 2006
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There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that.

I think the right view of the Patriots at this point is that of a team at the bottom, obviously, but it matters how they got here. They were a singular, 20-year dynasty that got old and crumbled, and, in the manner of these things, the crumbling happened gradually for a while and then all at once.

The Lions example is closer to decades of perpetual mediocrity with the occasional decent year or two thrown in.

I think a typical NFL rebuild happens more quickly then 12 years without getting there.

Bedard had a column the other day noting that the Mayo year was probably not all that costly to the organization, now that it is over. The worst part of it was stupidly throwing away the #1 pick. But allowing the on field product to bottom out for a year is probably not the worst thing in the world. Hanging for 4 years as the team gradually eroded under Belichick probably prevented the organization from addressing some of the difficult questions, modernizing its staff, thinking that there were a few quick fixes that could solve the team's problems.

Where they are now is better than where they were a year ago.

1. It looks like they have a franchise QB entering his second year.
2. The fact that they were relatively reserved in free agent spending last year means that they have a lot of money to spend this year.
3. They have strong draft position based on being the 4th worst team and the Judon pick.

All three of those things tend to make the team more attractive as a coaching destination.

The big negative is the evidence weakness of the roster. Just two potential star players (QB, CB), maybe 3 if you consider special teams (Marcus Jones).

Had BB stayed on this year, the Pats would have won more games because his defensive coaching acumen could have papered over some of the major flaws.

What happens next depends on making the right coaching hire, and putting him in position to succeed. The latter part means modernizing the front office and not going cheap on players, front office poersonnel, analytics, etc.

No guarantees they do that, but if they do do that, I don't think we're looking at 12 years of mediocrity, or anything close.
This is dead on. And it's why this job is a pretty damn appealing one right now such that the two top candidates are both interested.
 

naclone

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Jul 15, 2005
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I feel optimistic. But a lot is riding on the overall approach to free agency. I'm expecting not a splash but a sunami. If they are not heading into the offseason with a bulletproof plan to land Stanley, Higgins and a top pass rusher in the first hour of free agency then they are fucking it up imo. Set the record for OL contracts and then break that record signing another one. I want twitter and sosh burned to ground by the flurry of signings. The team on paper should be massively overhauled as much as possible before draft day. if instead we see a lot of wait and see and bargain bin shopping in FA I think the 2025 season will already be over.
 

sezwho

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Ultimately, the emotion I feel is fear.

Kraft took the hook from Mayo then seems to have wised up and moved on, but the roster is horrific and there seems real chance the author of the mess gets to write a sequel.

Theres a great line, I think about Bum Phillips?, that he could take yours and beat his or take his and beat yours….Roster stewardship meant by the time BB left he could have taken yours and beat his, but he couldn’t take his and beat yours. The roster is not better aside from Maye(yes that’s not to be underestimated).

Mayo had no plan. Wolf had no plan (except to suck and claim he needs another year…todo what?)

I don’t love Hardo Vrabel and his owner battling but at least he’d be a competent coach. Im hoping for more, specifically that Ben Johnson is it and has a plan.
 

Myt1

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The franchise has been utterly dysfunctional since the negotiations for Brady’s last contract, but now has some enticing on-field potential upside. Whoever coaches/GMs next will largely have to build from the ground up.

So, a lot to be done, a lot that can go wrong, but it’s not like the on-field product can get much worse: at least a dead cat bounce has to be baked in, with the potential for much more if everything goes absolutely great.
 

jsinger121

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The development part is tough. I think we all knew on draft day that they reached on every single pick. Everyone bar Maye was ranked way lower than picked. Polk was a 3rd round ranking efore the draft. Wallace way lower too. Draft was just awful bar Maye
It’s mostly going to be a bust draft outside of Drake Maye but I’d want to see what a better coaching staff can do developing these guys potentially because I think the previous staff was pretty horrible in development.
 

Bowhemian

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The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
Please explain to the class how they lucked into BB.
You are correct that the Patriots WERE one of the worst run franchises. But then RKK bought the team in 1994 and they were sort of ok for the next 25 years, wouldn’t you agree?
 

sezwho

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Please explain to the class how they lucked into BB.
You are correct that the Patriots WERE one of the worst run franchises. But then RKK bought the team in 1994 and they were sort of ok for the next 25 years, wouldn’t you agree?
They gave up a first round pick to get Bill lest we forget.

Side story - I happened to meet Bob Kraft at a wedding right after he signed Bill (distant rich associate in Belmont). I had a brief conversation with him. He was totally down to earth and asked me what I thought of the decision. I told him I liked Bill, but I wouldn’t have given up a first round pick : )
 

Njal

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Apr 23, 2010
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There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that. [SNIP] The big negative is the evidence weakness of the roster.
I hope I am pessimistic, because it would mean a lot less unwatchable football in my future!

I worry that beyond the roster, there is another big negative, namely the entire football operations staff. They need an OL coach so they don't commit penalties every red-zone trip. They need a WR coach so their receivers aren't all in the same place when the pass is thrown. They seem to need an analytics department. Maybe to replace their Commodore 64s with updated computers. New scouts, new training facilities. Etc. It just ... seems like a big project, in a world where every team is competing for the same small number of experts, and most are farther along. I don't think that the Pats have an edge just because they happen to be my favorite team, or because of they were good 10 years ago.

And then there's ownership. Let's just say that, over the last few years, I haven't been convinced that Bob Kraft has the best judgment in the world. He's made some good decisions in the past, but plenty of bad ones more recently.

So: bad roster, bad operations, questionable ownership. Drafting and FA are a bit of a crapshoot, where even optimal decision making leads to plenty of misses. The Pats could get lucky and return to glory soon, but I think that would involve getting lucky. I am trying to prepare myself for the possibility of more lean years by looking them squarely in the eye. The Lions are a useful example because they show that even a good QB doesn't necessarily make a good team.
 

NoXInNixon

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Please explain to the class how they lucked into BB.
You are correct that the Patriots WERE one of the worst run franchises. But then RKK bought the team in 1994 and they were sort of ok for the next 25 years, wouldn’t you agree?
No one knew at the time that BB would become the GOAT coach. They were also incredibly lucky that Tom Brady turned into the GOAT QB. Sure, they made the decision to draft him, but if they had any idea how good he would be, they wouldn't have waited until the 6th round to take him. They and everybody else thought he was a 6th round talent. It was pure luck (from the Patriots point of view) he became as good as he did.
 

skip wright

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Jan 4, 2018
66
No one knew at the time that BB would become the GOAT coach. They were also incredibly lucky that Tom Brady turned into the GOAT QB. Sure, they made the decision to draft him, but if they had any idea how good he would be, they wouldn't have waited until the 6th round to take him. They and everybody else thought he was a 6th round talent. It was pure luck (from the Patriots point of view) he became as good as he did.
excellent post
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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No one knew at the time that BB would become the GOAT coach. They were also incredibly lucky that Tom Brady turned into the GOAT QB. Sure, they made the decision to draft him, but if they had any idea how good he would be, they wouldn't have waited until the 6th round to take him. They and everybody else thought he was a 6th round talent. It was pure luck (from the Patriots point of view) he became as good as he did.
On the "luck" point....I'm not attributing this to you, but here's what I often see with respect to draft stuff.

If you draft a guy at his "expected" slot and he does well, you get no credit, because it was the "obvious" pick that "anyone could have made".

If you draft a guy at his "expected" slot and he does poorly, you are a loser, because you could have any number of good players that went right around that draft spot.

If you draft a guy higher than he was "expected" to go and he does well, you made a good pick but you also could have waited and gotten him later, so you "reached".

If you draft a guy higher than he was "expected" to go and he does poorly, you made a catastrophic decision by reaching.

If you draft a guy lower than he was "expected" to go and he does well, you just got lucky to have a good player fall into your lap.

If you draft a guy lower than he was "expected" to go and he does poorly, no biggie, because of course you'd take a chance on a guy with that talent who dropped like that. (Or, maybe you were stupid for picking him there because all the other teams were wary of something wrong with the guy and you should have been aware of that.)

It's very difficult in the realm of draft pundits to actually be really good at drafting. Look at the Maye pick. There was TONS of discussion on this very board about what the Pats would do at #3. Of course Maye was highly considered here, but so were a bunch of other options - picking McCarthy, trading down to add capital and then get McCarthy. Trade down and draft Penix or Nix. Or just picking Harrison Jr. They made the right call, but in these parts they get virtually no credit for making the right call when they EASILY could have made a different call.
 

NoXInNixon

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Mar 24, 2008
5,547
On the "luck" point....I'm not attributing this to you, but here's what I often see with respect to draft stuff.

If you draft a guy at his "expected" slot and he does well, you get no credit, because it was the "obvious" pick that "anyone could have made".
Is that you, Felger?

With the exception of the most obvious picks in the world, like taking Peyton Manning at #1, I absolutely give someone credit for taking a consensus pick but it being right. It's not always. Danny Ainge will forever be remembered as a genius for not taking the consensus #1, Markelle Fultz.

Being good at drafting can't be judged on a single draft pick, any more than you can judge a player based on a single game. Everyone has bad games, everyone misses on some draft picks. You look at the totality of their work. Bob Kraft has hired three coaches. He hired Pete Carroll after he drove Parcells out of town. That was a mistake. He hired BB. Huge win. Then he hired Mayo. Huge mistake. Small sample size, but there's reason to believe that it was the hiring of BB that was the fluke.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I don't understand the point of attributing BB and TB being here to luck. Who the fuck cares how they got here?

It may turn out the entirety of Kraft's success as the owner of the Pats was based on dumb luck, or maybe he's lost it now, or maybe Jonathan is calling the shots and he's not as shrewd as his Dad. And for any of those reasons the next coaching hire might be a disaster again and set the team back another five years. But, we should probably let that play out before we shit all over them for it.

Kraft has hired three coaches during his time owning the team. Carroll was mediocre in New England but ended up being a damn good coach. BB is the GOAT, we aren't getting another coach like him. Mayo was a disaster. Two of those hires were decades ago, the last one Kraft pulled the plug on immediately once it became obvious Mayo was in over his head. This time around they seem focused on a guy who is arguably the most sought after former NFL coach out there right now, and a hot young coordinator, and they seem to be running an actual process. So, let's see who they hire and some actual on-the-field results before we declare that Kraft is nothing more than a lucky SOB and we are destined to returned to the pre-Kraft days of irrelevance.
 

jsinger121

@jsinger121
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Jul 25, 2005
18,457
One thing I want the Patriots to do in free agency is look to sign players from winning organizations that can help establish a new culture here. They may be guys that are under valued or guys that have won but are closer to the end etc. I want them to turn over 65-70% of this roster and get the losers out of the building asap. Like on Day 1 of a new regime I would probably release guys like Tavai.
 

Van Everyman

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Apr 30, 2009
29,160
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The franchise has been utterly dysfunctional since the negotiations for Brady’s last contract
Your underlying point about dysfunction may be true, but the negotiations themselves--ie, Kraft giving up his leverage as a "gesture of goodwill" to Tom--was not a new wrinkle added to Brady's 2019 contract. Kraft had given Brady the same out in every renegotiation since 2010. He just finally used it.
 

Saints Rest

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It seems like there could be an interesting, in-depth, project available to someone who has more free time than I, to look at the various lifecycles of NFL franchises over time -- call it the 58 years of the Super Bowl era.

There are down periods where your team doesn't make the playoffs at all, and tent to pick in the top 10. (Pats 87-93; Jets and Giants 2012 to now.)

There are up periods where your team consistently wins division titles and goes on runs in the playoffs all the time. (Pats 01-19; Steelers for most of that same time; Chiefs 2017-present, Bills 2019-present.)

And then there are those periods that are somewhere in the middle where you are constantly in the wild card hunt, but rarely getting out of the first round of playoffs. Maybe the odd year of missing out on the playoffs in the last week or two of the season. (Cowboys and Seahawks of recent vintage; Pats of the mid-late 70s.)

All teams go through these phases. You hope that your team's time in the down periods are short, otherwise you are the Browns, Lions or Bungles from the aughts thru the teens. Many teams have shown that your time in the DOWN phase can be as short as 2-3 years.

Very few teams live in those UP periods for longer than 5-7 years. The Patriots of course, the Steelers, the Niners back in the day, the Chiefs now. Even those teams are lucky to grab 2-3 chips in those periods, maybe even a couple of Super Bowl losses. The Pats were extremely rare to basically have two of those runs, back to back.

I don't think anyone should be expecting the Pats to be one of those true dynasties again. But it would be nice to get out of the DOWN phase, and maybe back to alternating between UP and MIDDLE.
 

Saints Rest

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yes we have a gazillion dollars in cap space,but it doesnt mean a thing unless you spend it all on quality players and coaches.the question is....will kraft spend it?if he does we are golden.if he doesnt this is gonna be a long hard ugly ride.we will know here shortly.
I think it is safe to assume that Kraft will spend it; he answered almost this very question yesterday. The FAR more important question is "Will they spend it wisely?" It was just a few years ago where the Pats spent like drunks at 3am on Prime Days, but Judon was really the only guy who was a WISE use of spending, maybe Godchaux and Bethel. Mills, Bourne and Henry were decent spends. But Newton, Smith, Agholor, McMillan, Anderson (who?) and Adams (again, who?) were wastes.
 

Saints Rest

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One thing I want the Patriots to do in free agency is look to sign players from winning organizations that can help establish a new culture here. They may be guys that are under valued or guys that have won but are closer to the end etc. I want them to turn over 65-70% of this roster and get the losers out of the building asap. Like on Day 1 of a new regime I would probably release guys like Tavai.
Agreed 100%. Hiring a HC from another organization will help in this regard.

EDIT: Some possibilities that might fit this bill for Vrabel:
  • DeAndre Hopkins
  • Daniel Brunskill
  • Denico Autry
  • Harold Landry (Titans owe him $52M for next 3 years, with $13M dead cap hit)
  • Kevin Byard
 
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