Um, ok. I mean, yeah things suck now and it looks like a long road back, but I don't think how the Patriots were run 30+ years ago has any bearing on whether they'll be laughing stocks again over a long period of time (you could argue they kind of already are given this year's team and the one-and-done failed Mayo experiment, but things can change quickly).The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
I'd still say it was all worth it, if so.The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
I can. They would be Browns fans. And that is much, much worse, much uglier, much more toxic.I can't imagine how miserable this fanbase would be if they hadn't won 6 Super Bowls. Good God.
It is worth it. Banners fly forever.I'd still say it was all worth it, if so.
this is basically where I’m at.The Patriots have two good players, no organization, and owners who seem to want to meddle. The Lions were something like 79-112 over 12 years with Matt Stafford. That's about where I'd set my expectations.
You seem to have a lot of certainty that the bolded is set in stone already, far more certainty than most reporters that make a living covering the team and league and who therefore have a number of inside contacts to rely upon.this is basically where I’m at.
There’s no reason to think Kraft, Wolf and Groh won’t turn this into the Stafford era Lions. Might get a nice year or two, and Maye should be able to keep the team mildly competitive, but it’s going to be a clown show based on the way things have gone and look to be headed (keeping Wolf, seemingly handing Vrabel the job)
The path to no longer sucking is really obvious, and they've already taken the hardest step on that path.I can. They would be Browns fans. And that is much, much worse, much uglier, much more toxic.
What do you expect, people to be celebrating the fact that the Pats are the worst team over the last two seasons?
or they could get another half decade like 2024The path to no longer sucking is really obvious, and they've already taken the hardest step on that path.
I was 12 in 1985, had only been following the NFL for 3-ish years, and vividly remember thinking how surreal it was that the Pats were in the Super Bowl. Our perennial joke of a franchise was in the biggest game in the world.Um, ok. I mean, yeah things suck now and it looks like a long road back, but I don't think how the Patriots were run 30+ years ago has any bearing on whether they'll be laughing stocks again over a long period of time (you could argue they kind of already are given this year's team and the one-and-done failed Mayo experiment, but things can change quickly).
Plus winning a Super Bowl is really fucking hard. They could hire a great coach, Maye could end up being a Top 10 QB and they might have a great 5-8 year run, not win a Super Bowl, but still be a good and interesting team with deep playoff runs that is worth watching. I'll take that right now over what we've seen the last two years. I know winning a Super Bowl should be every franchise's ultimate goal, but as fans expecting that to happen over any short time frame is unrealistic (unless like the Pats and now the Chiefs you somehow end up with the best QB and best coach on the same team). If Buffalo doesn't get over the KC hump this year who knows if Allen ever even gets into a SB, the Lions have a great team this year they've never played in the damn game in their history. The Ravens and Steelers are both well run franchises that are competitive most every year and neither has won a SB in over a decade. Going to 9 and winning 6 over a relatively short period of time really broke people's brains in terms of how hard it actually is to accomplish even once.
Jesus Christ.The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
You might, although whether ownership has the wisdom to replace Mayo with an upgrade and clean out the front office capable of doing anything "pretty quickly" is very much in question based on the last transition.I can't imagine how miserable this fanbase would be if they hadn't won 6 Super Bowls. Good God.
They have a major rebuild in front of them. They appear to have done the hardest part (draft a QB). They took care of the other most pressing need yesterday (fire the very incompetent coach). Once you have QB and coach in place, you can figure the rest out pretty quickly when you have a top 5 draft pick and a very clean cap sheet.
“Can” most certainly does not mean “will”.You might, although whether ownership has the wisdom to replace Mayo with an upgrade and clean out the front office capable of doing anything "pretty quickly" is very much in question based on the last transition.
the roster needs talent. The ability to trade the first pick for more assets (high draft picks) would have helped speed up the rebuildI feel like some of the "we lost picks" stuff coming out of yesterday's win is overblown. Recent examples like the post-championship Bucs and Rams have shown that organizations with limited draft capital can rebuild their rosters fairly quickly if they have the right type of leadership and approach. And as has been pointed out, this is not a blue-chip draft anyway. It's funny to me how quickly the obsession over the top pick became a preoccupation, when it wasn't even really on the radar before the week-17 Giants win - and now for many it seems like an existential disaster.
I'm talking about the Bucs who most wrote off for dead after Brady and Gronk left, but who have managed to keep winning division titles with a roster that's largely turned over with the notable exception of Evans. Yes it's a crappy division, but they've been a playoff team. My point was that there's more than one way to do it. Either way you need to have the right people in charge, and have a bit of luck.the roster needs talent. The ability to trade the first pick for more assets (high draft picks) would have helped speed up the rebuild
Adding an extra 1st next year would have been extremely valuable
Not sure what Bucs rebuild you’re talking about. The one where they signed Brady and Gronk and already had Evans, Godwin, David, Devin White, Suh, JPP and others? They were a very good roster just a QB and gold coaching away from being good.
Id say that the current Lions are a good example as to why you need draft capital. It’s a lot more sustainable/likely to hit on first round picks than hope to find diamonds in the rough constantly.
There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that.The Patriots have two good players, no organization, and owners who seem to want to meddle. The Lions were something like 79-112 over 12 years with Matt Stafford. That's about where I'd set my expectations.
I strongly agree with this post. Mayo didn't appear to do any long term damage. Wolf is possibly a different story but that's for another thread.There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that.
I think the right view of the Patriots at this point is that of a team at the bottom, obviously, but it matters how they got here. They were a singular, 20-year dynasty that got old and crumbled, and, in the manner of these things, the crumbling happened gradually for a while and then all at once.
The Lions example is closer to decades of perpetual mediocrity with the occasional decent year or two thrown in.
I think a typical NFL rebuild happens more quickly then 12 years without getting there.
Bedard had a column the other day noting that the Mayo year was probably not all that costly to the organization, now that it is over. The worst part of it was stupidly throwing away the #1 pick. But allowing the on field product to bottom out for a year is probably not the worst thing in the world. Hanging for 4 years as the team gradually eroded under Belichick probably prevented the organization from addressing some of the difficult questions, modernizing its staff, thinking that there were a few quick fixes that could solve the team's problems.
Where they are now is better than where they were a year ago.
1. It looks like they have a franchise QB entering his second year.
2. The fact that they were relatively reserved in free agent spending last year means that they have a lot of money to spend this year.
3. They have strong draft position based on being the 4th worst team and the Judon pick.
All three of those things tend to make the team more attractive as a coaching destination.
The big negative is the evidence weakness of the roster. Just two potential star players (QB, CB), maybe 3 if you consider special teams (Marcus Jones).
Had BB stayed on this year, the Pats would have won more games because his defensive coaching acumen could have papered over some of the major flaws.
What happens next depends on making the right coaching hire, and putting him in position to succeed. The latter part means modernizing the front office and not going cheap on players, front office poersonnel, analytics, etc.
No guarantees they do that, but if they do do that, I don't think we're looking at 12 years of mediocrity, or anything close.
While the draft doesn’t look good on paper there will probably be guys that turn into stars that no one thinks will be at this time. Basically the Patriots need to be on their game scouting drafting and developing to find late type gems like a Puka Nucua or even not a currently crazy Antonio Brown or a Tyreke Hill because those guys will happen from time to timeI strongly agree with this post. Mayo didn't appear to do any long term damage. Wolf is possibly a different story but that's for another thread.
The only thing that truly sucks about the current situation looking forward is that this year's draft appears weak, especially with the lack of blue chip OTs and WRs. There is no Sewell or Chase to immediately bolster this offense and help Maye.
I feel much better now that Mayo was shown the door. Still wish we didn’t win that game yesterday but they can turn this around with right coach/front office. I feel like the coaching staff this year was so pathetic and that outside of the QBs developed no one.
This is dead on. And it's why this job is a pretty damn appealing one right now such that the two top candidates are both interested.There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that.
I think the right view of the Patriots at this point is that of a team at the bottom, obviously, but it matters how they got here. They were a singular, 20-year dynasty that got old and crumbled, and, in the manner of these things, the crumbling happened gradually for a while and then all at once.
The Lions example is closer to decades of perpetual mediocrity with the occasional decent year or two thrown in.
I think a typical NFL rebuild happens more quickly then 12 years without getting there.
Bedard had a column the other day noting that the Mayo year was probably not all that costly to the organization, now that it is over. The worst part of it was stupidly throwing away the #1 pick. But allowing the on field product to bottom out for a year is probably not the worst thing in the world. Hanging for 4 years as the team gradually eroded under Belichick probably prevented the organization from addressing some of the difficult questions, modernizing its staff, thinking that there were a few quick fixes that could solve the team's problems.
Where they are now is better than where they were a year ago.
1. It looks like they have a franchise QB entering his second year.
2. The fact that they were relatively reserved in free agent spending last year means that they have a lot of money to spend this year.
3. They have strong draft position based on being the 4th worst team and the Judon pick.
All three of those things tend to make the team more attractive as a coaching destination.
The big negative is the evidence weakness of the roster. Just two potential star players (QB, CB), maybe 3 if you consider special teams (Marcus Jones).
Had BB stayed on this year, the Pats would have won more games because his defensive coaching acumen could have papered over some of the major flaws.
What happens next depends on making the right coaching hire, and putting him in position to succeed. The latter part means modernizing the front office and not going cheap on players, front office poersonnel, analytics, etc.
No guarantees they do that, but if they do do that, I don't think we're looking at 12 years of mediocrity, or anything close.
It’s mostly going to be a bust draft outside of Drake Maye but I’d want to see what a better coaching staff can do developing these guys potentially because I think the previous staff was pretty horrible in development.The development part is tough. I think we all knew on draft day that they reached on every single pick. Everyone bar Maye was ranked way lower than picked. Polk was a 3rd round ranking efore the draft. Wallace way lower too. Draft was just awful bar Maye
Please explain to the class how they lucked into BB.The Patriots were one of the worst run franchises in NFL history. Bill Parcells made them respectable, then they lucked into Belichik and Brady which led to the greatest dynasty in NFL history. But they're all gone now, and unless they somehow luck into the next GOAT coach and QB, I expect them to be laughing stocks for the next decade or two. Many of us will never see the Patriots win another Super Bowl.
They gave up a first round pick to get Bill lest we forget.Please explain to the class how they lucked into BB.
You are correct that the Patriots WERE one of the worst run franchises. But then RKK bought the team in 1994 and they were sort of ok for the next 25 years, wouldn’t you agree?
Mayo was a serious issue on Sundays. Not good at game planning or adjustments in game. He was brutal.Wolf is a bigger problem than Mayo was. Not that optimisticc.
I hope I am pessimistic, because it would mean a lot less unwatchable football in my future!There seems to be a lot of deep pessimism here, this post is one example of that. [SNIP] The big negative is the evidence weakness of the roster.
No one knew at the time that BB would become the GOAT coach. They were also incredibly lucky that Tom Brady turned into the GOAT QB. Sure, they made the decision to draft him, but if they had any idea how good he would be, they wouldn't have waited until the 6th round to take him. They and everybody else thought he was a 6th round talent. It was pure luck (from the Patriots point of view) he became as good as he did.Please explain to the class how they lucked into BB.
You are correct that the Patriots WERE one of the worst run franchises. But then RKK bought the team in 1994 and they were sort of ok for the next 25 years, wouldn’t you agree?
excellent postNo one knew at the time that BB would become the GOAT coach. They were also incredibly lucky that Tom Brady turned into the GOAT QB. Sure, they made the decision to draft him, but if they had any idea how good he would be, they wouldn't have waited until the 6th round to take him. They and everybody else thought he was a 6th round talent. It was pure luck (from the Patriots point of view) he became as good as he did.
On the "luck" point....I'm not attributing this to you, but here's what I often see with respect to draft stuff.No one knew at the time that BB would become the GOAT coach. They were also incredibly lucky that Tom Brady turned into the GOAT QB. Sure, they made the decision to draft him, but if they had any idea how good he would be, they wouldn't have waited until the 6th round to take him. They and everybody else thought he was a 6th round talent. It was pure luck (from the Patriots point of view) he became as good as he did.
Is that you, Felger?On the "luck" point....I'm not attributing this to you, but here's what I often see with respect to draft stuff.
If you draft a guy at his "expected" slot and he does well, you get no credit, because it was the "obvious" pick that "anyone could have made".
On the "luck" point....I'm not attributing this to you, but here's what I often see with respect to draft stuff.
Your underlying point about dysfunction may be true, but the negotiations themselves--ie, Kraft giving up his leverage as a "gesture of goodwill" to Tom--was not a new wrinkle added to Brady's 2019 contract. Kraft had given Brady the same out in every renegotiation since 2010. He just finally used it.The franchise has been utterly dysfunctional since the negotiations for Brady’s last contract
I think it is safe to assume that Kraft will spend it; he answered almost this very question yesterday. The FAR more important question is "Will they spend it wisely?" It was just a few years ago where the Pats spent like drunks at 3am on Prime Days, but Judon was really the only guy who was a WISE use of spending, maybe Godchaux and Bethel. Mills, Bourne and Henry were decent spends. But Newton, Smith, Agholor, McMillan, Anderson (who?) and Adams (again, who?) were wastes.yes we have a gazillion dollars in cap space,but it doesnt mean a thing unless you spend it all on quality players and coaches.the question is....will kraft spend it?if he does we are golden.if he doesnt this is gonna be a long hard ugly ride.we will know here shortly.
Agreed 100%. Hiring a HC from another organization will help in this regard.One thing I want the Patriots to do in free agency is look to sign players from winning organizations that can help establish a new culture here. They may be guys that are under valued or guys that have won but are closer to the end etc. I want them to turn over 65-70% of this roster and get the losers out of the building asap. Like on Day 1 of a new regime I would probably release guys like Tavai.