Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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There was a full on discussion of the rule in this forum because it changed this year. Plenty of people questioned it. I’m so tired of hearing about the glory days when every player knew all of the rules when Bill was here. It’s a garbage take and has no basis in reality. The team was 4-13 last year. I get that some of you don’t want your step dad to replace your real dad but your real dad sucked last year and its why he’s doing podcasts. A rookie WR who made a hell of a play wants to argue that he made a great play and we want to put it on the coaches? Are you 100% sure no one on the staff has talked to him about it? This is nonsense.
The problem with "its bad coaching" wrt to Polk's non catch is that it makes a bunch of assumptions about what information was/wasn't conveyed to the players. Do we know for sure that the rule wasn't explained to Polk? He has been coached before but he is 22 years old in his first job out of school. Our really smart 22 year olds mess up stuff regularly even with firm management.

Its not that I don't want to join the pitchfork and torch crowd. I just want to make sure the mob I follow around isn't just aiming for any target they can find. People have admit we do that here, all the time.

Also, I can't get to 3-2 with any different coaching. They are 1-4 and there are no metrics showing any real underperformance. They are pretty bad.
 

Cellar-Door

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The problem with "its bad coaching" wrt to Polk's non catch is that it makes a bunch of assumptions about what information was/wasn't conveyed to the players. Do we know for sure that the rule wasn't explained to Polk? He has been coached before but he is 22 years old in his first job out of school. Our really smart 22 year olds mess up stuff regularly even with firm management.

Its not that I don't want to join the pitchfork and torch crowd. I just want to make sure the mob I follow around isn't just aiming for any target they can find. People have admit we do that here, all the time.

Also, I can't get to 3-2 with any different coaching. They are 1-4 and there are no metrics showing any real underperformance. They are pretty bad.
I think it's bad coaching because the player doesn't know the rule. The job of the coach is to make sure the players know the rules... now they might screw up and make mistakes because they forget the rule in a moment, but that they know the rule is essential. I'm not making an assumption about what information was conveyed, I'm taking what we CAN see... which is that even well after the game Polk did not know the rule, and based on that know information saying "the coaching staff did not adequately prepare the player such that he knows the rule". If you are not able to convey information in such a way that the players have and understand needed information... that's not good coaching. You can know every rule, have every amazing play design, if you can't transfer that to the players you aren't a good coach.
 

rodderick

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The problem with "its bad coaching" wrt to Polk's non catch is that it makes a bunch of assumptions about what information was/wasn't conveyed to the players. Do we know for sure that the rule wasn't explained to Polk? He has been coached before but he is 22 years old in his first job out of school. Our really smart 22 year olds mess up stuff regularly even with firm management.

Its not that I don't want to join the pitchfork and torch crowd. I just want to make sure the mob I follow around isn't just aiming for any target they can find. People have admit we do that here, all the time.

Also, I can't get to 3-2 with any different coaching. They are 1-4 and there are no metrics showing any real underperformance. They are pretty bad.
It's so funny that people just take for granted the one game they won playing as clean as this roster is capable of playing against a talented opponent on the road. Any coach beats the Bengals, only Mayo loses the Seattle and Miami games. Sure.
 

Cellar-Door

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It's so funny that people just take for granted the one game they won playing as clean as this roster is capable of playing against a talented opponent on the road. Any coach beats the Bengals, only Mayo loses the Seattle and Miami games. Sure.
I will say, I think Mayo has been really bad.... I also think 1-4 is probably where they should be and that they were outplayed in every loss. Coaching might have helped, but I don't think this team has 3 wins with a better coach.
 

SMU_Sox

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After the game Mayo said the refs made the right call.

And then Polk said:

89802

A coach might want to explain to him exactly why it wasn't a catch. Mayo thought it was the right call. So why doesn't Polk?

8:41pm after the game and after he should have known why it wasn't a catch he is still spouting off on IG about how it was a catch? That to me is bad coaching. VP of Officiating explained it too. Just frustrating all around.
 

lexrageorge

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After the game Mayo said the refs made the right call.

And then Polk said:

View attachment 89802

A coach might want to explain to him exactly why it wasn't a catch. Mayo thought it was the right call. So why doesn't Polk?

8:41pm after the game and after he should have known why it wasn't a catch he is still spouting off on IG about how it was a catch? That to me is bad coaching. VP of Officiating explained it too. Just frustrating all around.
That article with Polk's comments was posted a couple of hours after the end of the game. The comments were probably made less than an hour after the end of the game. Polk probably didn't even see the film by that point. At best he saw the replay from a distance while on the field and still on an emotional high for thinking he had landed a key TD. Seems like he genuinely thought he got both feet in, and perhaps did not know all the nuances of the somewhat bizarre and illogical toe-heel rule. The fan reaction to the replay and the officials overturn ruling could have also played a part in his misperception.

I guess an assistant coach probably should have come over to him on the sidelines and showed him the replay. At the same time, the game was still going on and there was a distinct possibility of another series of Hail Mary downs for the Pats (which turned out to be the case).

Now, if he's still not clear on why he did not score a TD, that is indeed on the coaches. He should have seen film by now. But not sure I can put much stock into the immediate post-game comments.
 

SMU_Sox

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That article with Polk's comments was posted a couple of hours after the end of the game. The comments were probably made less than an hour after the end of the game. Polk probably didn't even see the film by that point. At best he saw the replay from a distance while on the field and still on an emotional high for thinking he had landed a key TD. Seems like he genuinely thought he got both feet in, and perhaps did not know all the nuances of the somewhat bizarre and illogical toe-heel rule. The fan reaction to the replay and the officials overturn ruling could have also played a part in his misperception.

I guess an assistant coach probably should have come over to him on the sidelines and showed him the replay. At the same time, the game was still going on and there was a distinct possibility of another series of Hail Mary downs for the Pats (which turned out to be the case).

Now, if he's still not clear on why he did not score a TD, that is indeed on the coaches. He should have seen film by now. But not sure I can put much stock into the immediate post-game comments.
That is fair - but what about the IG post at 8:41pm that night? You would think by then he would have been told, right?
 

SMU_Sox

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Deleted per note. Final edit: I used the block button. I don’t like to use it but if we can’t have a civil discussion and it’s been an issue for a while then we can’t engage. Disagreements are normal and we can all get a little heated from time to time but treating each other with respect is important to me.

I do want to share a note from Mike Reiss that deserves linking:

IMG_0097.jpeg

All of these things are the lumps that rookie head coaches can take. He’s green. He needs time too. It might not get better. It might get better. We shall see!

Last note but teams do work on sideline and red zone drills. Typically receivers, RBs, and TEs are taught what is a catch and where. These drills are done throughout the learning periods of OTAs, mini camps and in camp itself. I expect the pass catchers to know the rules. I don’t expect him to make that catch all the time but hopefully most of the time he can haul it in. It’s hard but a good to great WR can, again, hopefully make it.
 
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That article with Polk's comments was posted a couple of hours after the end of the game. The comments were probably made less than an hour after the end of the game. Polk probably didn't even see the film by that point. At best he saw the replay from a distance while on the field and still on an emotional high for thinking he had landed a key TD. Seems like he genuinely thought he got both feet in, and perhaps did not know all the nuances of the somewhat bizarre and illogical toe-heel rule. The fan reaction to the replay and the officials overturn ruling could have also played a part in his misperception.

I guess an assistant coach probably should have come over to him on the sidelines and showed him the replay. At the same time, the game was still going on and there was a distinct possibility of another series of Hail Mary downs for the Pats (which turned out to be the case).

Now, if he's still not clear on why he did not score a TD, that is indeed on the coaches. He should have seen film by now. But not sure I can put much stock into the immediate post-game comments.
It’s not really a nuanced or illogical rule. Your foot has to be in bounds when it hits the ground.

It’s a rule which has existed in football forever, at all levels of the game from peewee to college to pros.

There is no level of football where half your foot landing out of bounds constitutes a catch. The number of feet that need to be in bounds varies but the definition of what is “in bounds” does not. If, in college, your first foot (since only one is needed) is half in/half out, it’s incomplete

This is football 101, it’s wild that a professional player wouldn’t know the fundamental rules of the game. It would be like a baseball player not knowing that if a fair ball bounces into the stands, it’s a ground rule double.

There are a lot of weird and gray areas with catches, but the feet in bounds aspect of it has been remarkably consistent and black and white (once they did away with the force out rule)
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Deleted per note. Final edit: I used the block button. I don’t like to use it but if we can’t have a civil discussion and it’s been an issue for a while then we can’t engage. Disagreements are normal and we can all get a little heated from time to time but treating each other with respect is important to me.

I do want to share a note from Mike Reiss that deserves linking:

View attachment 89816

All of these things are the lumps that rookie head coaches can take. He’s green. He needs time too. It might not get better. It might get better. We shall see!

Last note but teams do work on sideline and red zone drills. Typically receivers, RBs, and TEs are taught what is a catch and where. These drills are done throughout the learning periods of OTAs, mini camps and in camp itself. I expect the pass catchers to know the rules. I don’t expect him to make that catch all the time but hopefully most of the time he can haul it in. It’s hard but a good to great WR can, again, hopefully make it.
I was replying to the forum. I’m sorry you took it to heart. Doesn’t change my stance though. If people want to condemn the coaching staff 5 games in after some dreadfully bad luck then that’s your prerogative. Since when is attacking a narrative frowned upon? Isn’t that part of a discussion? I didn’t say the person who has that opinion is ignorant or stupid. I said the narrative is crap. Reiss’s opinion is just that. An opinion. And yes speaking in absolutes about something you don’t know is a concrete fact is nonsense. It’s like saying Wolf didn’t even try to make this roster better in the offseason.

You blocked me for that? Damn man. I guess you’re not supposed to disagree with SMU…
 

SMU_Sox

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You can like the rule or not like the rule. You can think it’s bizarre or not. I personally think it’s fine. It makes sense to me. I immediately knew on replay it was an incomplete. But really the above doesn’t matter. What matters is the players (and not SOSH) know the rule. I’d rather he had said, “damn man, I was this close but I just couldn’t get my heel to stick inbounds!” If your coach knows the rule and says it was the right call then you should be on the same page with him. Some of the catch rules are complicated but you’d expect people whose job it is to coach the rules and whose job it is to play by and know the rules to do their jobs.

This is a good learning experience for everyone. They’ve had a lot of them lately.
 

slamminsammya

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The problem with "its bad coaching" wrt to Polk's non catch is that it makes a bunch of assumptions about what information was/wasn't conveyed to the players. Do we know for sure that the rule wasn't explained to Polk? He has been coached before but he is 22 years old in his first job out of school. Our really smart 22 year olds mess up stuff regularly even with firm management.

Its not that I don't want to join the pitchfork and torch crowd. I just want to make sure the mob I follow around isn't just aiming for any target they can find. People have admit we do that here, all the time.

Also, I can't get to 3-2 with any different coaching. They are 1-4 and there are no metrics showing any real underperformance. They are pretty bad.
I was teaching an intro calc course once and a college student spent an hour arguing with me about why one of the most important unsolved problems in mathematics was actually trivial and that he'd solved it.

Sometimes young guys are just some combination of dumb / stubborn. It might be Mayo, it might just be Polk.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Plus, the idea they were keeping the starting QB under wraps until like game day is quite impracticable. They had to inform the players and coaches by today of any change given the sensitivity and importance of the position, and that means dozens of people, plus their agents and family/friends, who would know the change occurred on Wednesday at the latest. This idea they were gonna keep that quiet until Saturday or Sunday is wrong.
I think the best they could do is say "it will be a game time decision," and even then if the decision had really already been made it would leak somehow.

The only likely difference you might see is that they play with a hole player who spies Maye. They are going to be in man a ton and probably blitz a good amount for a multitude of reasons: facing a rookie QB, our OL is in shambles and sucks, our receivers can't win consistently vs man. I can buy maybe they play a tiny bit more zone because he can scramble.

What we should hope to see is Maye quickly getting rid of the ball to the right spots when he is blitzed. That's such a tall order for a rookie QB.

I expect this to be a game where he has some great improvisations but his routine passing is brutal. That's ok too. I just hope folks keep calm even if he gets his ass kicked.
Will they have more plays where he rolls out by design?

There was a full on discussion of the rule in this forum because it changed this year. Plenty of people questioned it. I’m so tired of hearing about the glory days when every player knew all of the rules when Bill was here. It’s a garbage take and has no basis in reality. The team was 4-13 last year. I get that some of you don’t want your step dad to replace your real dad but your real dad sucked last year and its why he’s doing podcasts. A rookie WR who made a hell of a play wants to argue that he made a great play and we want to put it on the coaches? Are you 100% sure no one on the staff has talked to him about it? This is nonsense.
It’s a rule which has existed in football forever, at all levels of the game from peewee to college to pros.
There seems to be some disagreement here.
 

lexrageorge

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I think the best they could do is say "it will be a game time decision," and even then if the decision had really already been made it would leak somehow.
It would have leaked the very first practice they gave Maye most or all of the starting reps. And, honestly, a much bigger coaching mistake would have been to split the starting reps this week in an attempt to obfuscate the decision.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I will say, I think Mayo has been really bad.... I also think 1-4 is probably where they should be and that they were outplayed in every loss. Coaching might have helped, but I don't think this team has 3 wins with a better coach.
They might be 2-2 if Mayo didn't screw up the end of the half against Seattle, but of course you can't assume the rest of that game plays out the same if he didn't screw up, etc.

I too think Mayo has been awful. As the season goes on I think it's clear they're very lucky not to be 0-5 as they got ridiculous and non-repeatable turnover luck in the Bengals game.
 

chilidawg

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It would have leaked the very first practice they gave Maye most or all of the starting reps. And, honestly, a much bigger coaching mistake would have been to split the starting reps this week in an attempt to obfuscate the decision.
Exactly. Wednesday's practice would have left no doubt. So we're worried that Houston found out on Tuesday that Maye was starting?
 

ShaneTrot

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They might be 2-2 if Mayo didn't screw up the end of the half against Seattle, but of course you can't assume the rest of that game plays out the same if he didn't screw up, etc.

I too think Mayo has been awful. As the season goes on I think it's clear they're very lucky not to be 0-5 as they got ridiculous and non-repeatable turnover luck in the Bengals game.
You are being a bit too harsh here. This team is awful on offense besides the rushing offense which I bet often sees 11 guys in the box. He lost his center on offense, who was his most experienced guy in a line with a lot of young guys on it. The QB is a tough, cool guy but he is extremely limited. When they complete a pass I am surprised.

They have been ravaged by injuries on defense. They played last week without both their starting safeties, their thumping inside LB, and their star DT. Mapu came off the IR last week, had to wear the green dot, and played all the defensive snaps. He is a fast guy, but he is not a runstuffer.

I think Mayo has done some good things, the special teams are infinitely better. Until last week penalties were not an issue. The team is not turning over the ball like they did last year. The effort except in the Jets game has been very good. Mayo is a smart guy, I expect him to learn and grow this year. I am curious to see if he can get the team playing its best ball in December. BB teams have sucked in Dec-Jan since 2018.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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You are being a bit too harsh here. This team is awful on offense besides the rushing offense which I bet often sees 11 guys in the box. He lost his center on offense, who was his most experienced guy in a line with a lot of young guys on it. The QB is a tough, cool guy but he is extremely limited. When they complete a pass I am surprised.

They have been ravaged by injuries on defense. They played last week without both their starting safeties, their thumping inside LB, and their star DT. Mapu came off the IR last week, had to wear the green dot, and played all the defensive snaps. He is a fast guy, but he is not a runstuffer.

I think Mayo has done some good things, the special teams are infinitely better. Until last week penalties were not an issue. The team is not turning over the ball like they did last year. The effort except in the Jets game has been very good. Mayo is a smart guy, I expect him to learn and grow this year. I am curious to see if he can get the team playing its best ball in December. BB teams have sucked in Dec-Jan since 2018.
They don't turn the ball over because Brissett has always had a very low INT%, because he never throws down the field.

We can judge Mayo apart from the personnel issues; his in game strategy choices have been atrocious. He has screwed up very basic clock and game management at the end of the first half twice already this season, this isn't very difficult stuff. He had them throw 4 times from the 10 at the end of the Miami game despite having amply time outs and despite the high rushing average per carry, naturally this did not work and they lost. This from the coach who stated they wanted to be a power running team.

He has been atrocious so far this year.
 
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Bigdogx

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They don't turn the ball over because Brissett has always had a very low INT%, because he never throws down the field.

We can judge Mayo apart from the personnel issues; his in game strategy choices have been atrocious. He has screwed up very basic clock and game management at the end of the first half twice already this season, this isn't very difficult stuff. He had them throw 4 times from the 10 at the end of the Miami game despite having amply time outs and despite the high rushing average per carry, naturally this did not work and they lost. This from the coach who stated they wanted to be a power running team.

He has been atrocious so far this year.
I agree as he is not ready to be a head coach yet, if ever to be honest! Bob Kraft made a mistake here and sadly it seems like he will ride this team to the bottom to try and save face and pretend this isn't his worst choice in his time as owner of this team, which imo it is. He hired an in house coach and in house GM and no one should be shocked we have a team that is even worse than last season! This team needed someone with experience as an actual coach and Bob gave them about as green a coach as one could find, he then doubled down on that and didnt even bother to look outside of the current regime for a new GM.

I feel bad for Maye, he is being tossed into the worst situation in all of the NFL right now!
 

lexrageorge

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We’re 5 games into Mayo’s career. The reactions in this thread are officially hilarious.
 

johnmd20

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We’re 5 games into Mayo’s career. The reactions in this thread are officially hilarious.
5 games into his career with a roster that is poor on offense. Probably worse than poor.

I do agree, the steaming hot takes are a little tiring. But that is the point of the hot take economy. Be first and hyperbolically aggressive, that is all that matters.
 

luckiestman

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5 games into his career with a roster that is poor on offense. Probably worse than poor.

I do agree, the steaming hot takes are a little tiring. But that is the point of the hot take economy. Be first and hyperbolically aggressive, that is all that matters.

I getting dizzy thinking about how on 1 hand we can sort of judge Mayo as a coach with the worst offensive line I have ever seen in my life and a zero at QB but on the other hand Robert Saleh's coaching ability is still an open question. By the logic of the Saleh discourse, Mayo needs, at a minimum, 50 more games.
 

johnmd20

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I getting dizzy thinking about how on 1 hand we can sort of judge Mayo as a coach with the worst offensive line I have ever seen in my life and a zero at QB but on the other hand Robert Saleh's coaching ability is still an open question. By the logic of the Saleh discourse, Mayo needs, at a minimum, 50 more games.
His record doesn't count. People made the very compelling case Zach Wilson is the reason Saleh was bad. Which is why the Jets are a powerhouse offense this year.
 

Justthetippett

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There's nothing really wrong with critiquing what Mayo has done so far. That's the job. From burn some cash to now it's been a bit of a shit show. That doesn't mean he won't pull it together. I'd say at a minimum he has three years to show what he's got. He'll no doubt improve in many areas along the way because he's an intelligent guy and he knows what winning football takes and looks like. Whether he succeeds longer term will depend on him getting a system in place and the whole operation from the front office on down getting it together. It's going to take a lot of work and some good breaks along the way.
 

Jinhocho

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There's nothing really wrong with critiquing what Mayo has done so far. That's the job. From burn some cash to now it's been a bit of a shit show. That doesn't mean he won't pull it together. I'd say at a minimum he has three years to show what he's got. He'll no doubt improve in many areas along the way because he's an intelligent guy and he knows what winning football takes and looks like. Whether he succeeds longer term will depend on him getting a system in place and the whole operation from the front office on down getting it together. It's going to take a lot of work and some good breaks along the way.
3 years is a long time to wait for a shit show (if he turns out to be one). I dont think you can wait this long in the NFL anymore. My guess is unless he shows improvement (and the team) he will be done after next year.
 

Silverdude2167

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3 years is a long time to wait for a shit show (if he turns out to be one). I dont think you can wait this long in the NFL anymore. My guess is unless he shows improvement (and the team) he will be done after next year.
I think he has to get one more year atleast.

Kraft appointed him, and it seems Kraft is very vain, he won't want to admit a mistake so quickly (not that I am on the Mayo sucks bandwagon).
 

Cellar-Door

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I think he has to get one more year atleast.

Kraft appointed him, and it seems Kraft is very vain, he won't want to admit a mistake so quickly (not that I am on the Mayo sucks bandwagon).
Unless he's a total disaster, he will (and should) get at least a 2nd year. I think Mayo has been quite bad, but it's 5 games, unless you are an Urban Meyer style disaster behind the scenes a new coach should get 17 games to show improvement and then another (at least partial) year to build on it.
 

Euclis20

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Coach appears to have just accepted a penalty on 4th and 5.
Really hoping the officials changed their minds and ruled the 3rd down play a catch (which would have made it 1st down), making accepting the penalty the obvious choice. Otherwise, it's indefensible.
 

Ed Hillel

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Really hoping the officials changed their minds and ruled the 3rd down play a catch (which would have made it 1st down), making accepting the penalty the obvious choice. Otherwise, it's indefensible.
Gamelog is saying it was never ruled a catch. If it never happened, they had an entire commercial timeout to recognize it and change and didn't.
 

Euclis20

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Gamelog is saying it was never ruled a catch. If it never happened, they had an entire commercial timeout to recognize it and change and didn't.
Super. It didn't end up hurting them and it's in the 1st half of a week 6 game in a lost season, but that's just an unbelievable miss.
 

axx

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I think he has to get one more year atleast.

Kraft appointed him, and it seems Kraft is very vain, he won't want to admit a mistake so quickly
See I disagree. 2-14 and I think it's in play. I personally think Mayo should get 2 years at least.
 

chilidawg

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Super. It didn't end up hurting them and it's in the 1st half of a week 6 game in a lost season, but that's just an unbelievable miss.
Wasn't it a misunderstanding among the officials as to whether or not it was a catch? Mayo can only act on the information he has. I just don't understand why this poor dead horse is continually being flogged.
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

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Wasn't it a misunderstanding among the officials as to whether or not it was a catch? Mayo can only act on the information he has. I just don't understand why this poor dead horse is continually being flogged.
Right at the end of the play you could see one official running to the official who had called no catch, I assumed because he thought it was a catch. My guess is that they did rule it a catch, the Pats coaching staff knew this, but somehow the official game log didn't get accurately updated.
 

Zedia

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Yes, it was ruled a catch on the field (per Reiss on twitter/mastodon). Mayo was talking to the ref during the commercial break. Bad job by the CBS team who didn't even notice.

It did make me wonder though if they could challenge the catch before accepting or declining.
 

cshea

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Reiss tried to ask Mayo about the accepted penalty thing today but Mayo answered about a different play (the play before the Boutte bomb where they declined an illegal use of hands call). Reiss didn’t push back.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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I've been generally staying out of the coaching debate, since I'm cautious about jumping to conclusions

After six games, however, I'm increasingly of two minds about this group:
  1. First, @Smiling Joe Hesketh and @Cellar-Door and @NextBigThing8184 and others have been right that Mayo & Co's game management has been confusing and bad, and the team has been sloppy and seemingly unprepared for situations that to be expected and the team should have a plan for
  2. Second, a year ago I spent a whole season of Celtics basketball slamming the game management and team preparation of Joe Mazzulla, only to have him turn around, build a solid supporting staff, and lead a dominant team to a title the next year
I'm not saying the first always-- or in this case-- is going to lead to the second

But having just been very dramatically wrong about a HC in a similar situation in a different sport, I'm personally a little gun shy about saying for sure what Mayo's future and potential is

Every HC has strengths. If Mayo's are in the locker room, and motivating/leading players, and inspiring effort... great, those have value. But a team led by that kind of coach is going to need to have people who are great at game management, preparing for situational football, focusing players on the right details, and the like. At the risk of over-doing the comparsion, who are Mayo's versions of Charles Lee and Sam Cassell?

One thing that has struck me in the past about both guys, is that when they were made HCs there were tons of quotes from people saying that they had known for a long time that both Mazzulla and Mayo were destined to be HCs. That's not sufficient. But it's not nothing.
 
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You can chalk up the puzzling in game stuff to being wildly inexperienced. I know he was LB coach and a former (excellent) player but it’s still a huge leap to being head coach of an entire team when the biggest group he’s ever had to command is like 10 guys and maybe some intern-level coaching assistants. He may or may not grow into that role.

What’s concerning to me is the terrible fundamentals on defense. That’s supposed to be his bread and butter. The defense, sans Belichicks, was supposed to be this team’s strength and keeping continuity there with Mayo and Covington was supposed to be a perk of firing BB and gifting the job to Mayo. But the performance on that side of the ball has been often sloppy, undisciplined and uncoordinated at times. Not sure if it’s a Mayo issue or a Covington issue (which would be a Mayo issue anyway).

Barmore being out doesn’t excuse the lackluster play on D from a lot of the guys they need to rely upon. They look disorganized and fundamentally unsound way too often for a team with a defensive minded HC.
 

lexrageorge

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You can chalk up the puzzling in game stuff to being wildly inexperienced. I know he was LB coach and a former (excellent) player but it’s still a huge leap to being head coach of an entire team when the biggest group he’s ever had to command is like 10 guys and maybe some intern-level coaching assistants. He may or may not grow into that role.

What’s concerning to me is the terrible fundamentals on defense. That’s supposed to be his bread and butter. The defense, sans Belichicks, was supposed to be this team’s strength and keeping continuity there with Mayo and Covington was supposed to be a perk of firing BB and gifting the job to Mayo. But the performance on that side of the ball has been often sloppy, undisciplined and uncoordinated at times. Not sure if it’s a Mayo issue or a Covington issue (which would be a Mayo issue anyway).

Barmore being out doesn’t excuse the lackluster play on D from a lot of the guys they need to rely upon. They look disorganized and fundamentally unsound way too often for a team with a defensive minded HC.
The defensive roster is missing a lot more than just Barmore.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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The defensive roster is missing a lot more than just Barmore.
They’re missing Bentley and Peppers (who played in the first 4 games). A mediocre off ball LB and one dimensional box safety shouldn’t derail the defense (especially Bentley)

Every team has injuries to starters. It’s inevitable in the NFL. The 2013 Patriots got to the AFCCG with a top 10 (points) D after losing Mayo and Wilfork to major injuries. The Pats won a Super Bowl with the best D in the league after losing Law for the season

Barmore is a good player but he’s not the reason the team is taking terrible pursuit angles, losing contain, can’t rush off the edge, can’t cover and can’t make big plays. The DB’s other than Gonzalez aren’t great at covering (including Peppers). J.Jones is getting old, M.Jones is mediocre, Hawkins sucks, Dugger isn’t great at coverage, Pettus/Austin/Wilson are practice squad talent. The LB group has no depth, Ellis, Jacobs and McMillian are the definition of JAG roster filler. They went into the season with Ekuale and Pharms (and the departed Hill) as guys poised to get a lot of snaps before Barmore’s injury.

When you go into a season with Jaylinn Hawkins as your #3 safety, Pharms as your #3 DT and Raekwon McMillian (I guess) as your backup OBLB, you can’t sit there and be surprised when your D struggles to cope with inevitable injuries. Every team relies on their #5-7 DB, #3-4 DT and backup LB’s. The Pats’ are awful and that was an obvious problem back in May, let alone before Barmore’s blood clots. Wolf did absolutely nothing to address the depth issues on D and went into the season basically praying there wasn’t an injury to a starting defender because the top backups are terrible.
 

SMU_Sox

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They’re missing Bentley and Peppers (who played in the first 4 games). A mediocre off ball LB and one dimensional box safety shouldn’t derail the defense (especially Bentley)
You are grossly undervaluing how good Bentley is in this defense as well as Peppers. Bentley more than Peppers but both guys are quality NFL starters on this team.


Every team has injuries to starters. It’s inevitable in the NFL. The 2013 Patriots got to the AFCCG with a top 10 (points) D after losing Mayo and Wilfork to major injuries. The Pats won a Super Bowl with the best D in the league after losing Law for the season

Barmore is a good player but he’s not the reason the team is taking terrible pursuit angles, losing contain, can’t rush off the edge, can’t cover and can’t make big plays. The DB’s other than Gonzalez aren’t great at covering (including Peppers). J.Jones is getting old, M.Jones is mediocre, Hawkins sucks, Dugger isn’t great at coverage, Pettus/Austin/Wilson are practice squad talent. The LB group has no depth, Ellis, Jacobs and McMillian are the definition of JAG roster filler. They went into the season with Ekuale and Pharms (and the departed Hill) as guys poised to get a lot of snaps before Barmore’s injury.

When you go into a season with Jaylinn Hawkins as your #3 safety, Pharms as your #3 DT and Raekwon McMillian (I guess) as your backup OBLB, you can’t sit there and be surprised when your D struggles to cope with inevitable injuries. Every team relies on their #5-7 DB, #3-4 DT and backup LB’s. The Pats’ are awful and that was an obvious problem back in May, let alone before Barmore’s blood clots. Wolf did absolutely nothing to address the depth issues on D and went into the season basically praying there wasn’t an injury to a starting defender because the top backups are terrible.
Most backups in the NFL are bad. It’s hard to replace a top 10 kind of 3T. Barmore was a top 15 talent who slid because of character issues. He’s played like it recently. I agree with you that lack of depth is an issue. Identifying Roy was a good move by Wolf. Defensive interior and offensive line are bald spots across the league. We need to set those expectations appropriately. That being said I am disappointed they didn’t go after another edge especially if they knew they would try and trade Judon.

This is a draft and develop organization in year 1. Unfortunately, that means we won’t have instant depth year 1. The injuries here are also unsustainable. We’re going to lead the league in injuries and adjusted games lost or be damn close to it. If you have Tom Brady it’s easier to overcome that situation. Also, as bad as it was we’re at 4/5 OL starters injured as well as a bunch of the backups. No squad can have competent OL play with those kinds of injuries unless maybe they are loaded at skilled position players and have an elite QB. I have my issues with Wolf but imo you’re giving him too hard a time here.
 
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lexrageorge

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They’re missing Bentley and Peppers (who played in the first 4 games). A mediocre off ball LB and one dimensional box safety shouldn’t derail the defense (especially Bentley)

Every team has injuries to starters. It’s inevitable in the NFL. The 2013 Patriots got to the AFCCG with a top 10 (points) D after losing Mayo and Wilfork to major injuries. The Pats won a Super Bowl with the best D in the league after losing Law for the season

Barmore is a good player but he’s not the reason the team is taking terrible pursuit angles, losing contain, can’t rush off the edge, can’t cover and can’t make big plays. The DB’s other than Gonzalez aren’t great at covering (including Peppers). J.Jones is getting old, M.Jones is mediocre, Hawkins sucks, Dugger isn’t great at coverage, Pettus/Austin/Wilson are practice squad talent. The LB group has no depth, Ellis, Jacobs and McMillian are the definition of JAG roster filler. They went into the season with Ekuale and Pharms (and the departed Hill) as guys poised to get a lot of snaps before Barmore’s injury.

When you go into a season with Jaylinn Hawkins as your #3 safety, Pharms as your #3 DT and Raekwon McMillian (I guess) as your backup OBLB, you can’t sit there and be surprised when your D struggles to cope with inevitable injuries. Every team relies on their #5-7 DB, #3-4 DT and backup LB’s. The Pats’ are awful and that was an obvious problem back in May, let alone before Barmore’s blood clots. Wolf did absolutely nothing to address the depth issues on D and went into the season basically praying there wasn’t an injury to a starting defender because the top backups are terrible.
The teams that are forced to rely on the 7th DB, 4th DT and backup LBs are all awful. No team has that type of depth, not even the Dynasty era Patriots. 1 or 2 starters, as in those examples, fine. But not the 6 or 7 missing the starters this team has been missing at times.

Judon was also slated to start this season, and he was traded as part of the rebuild.

I don't disagree the roster is bad. But it needs a lot more than just a coaching change to become a good roster again.
 

SMU_Sox

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Yeah when you look at the roster going into camp the best 6 defenders were: Barmore, Judon, Bentley, Dugger, Gonzo (probably), and then Peppers or Jon Jones or Tavai. 3 of their top 5 are out and one, Dugger, has been beat up. Bentley is such a crucial player in their run defense. I still don’t think they are as schematically sharp as they have been in the past but it’s tough to succeed without much of a pass rush.