Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.

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Dogman

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Becomes kind of a semantics thing bc maybe he does have plenty of relationships…but the only way it actually matters is if it drives good coaches into the building

I’m sure anyone who played and coached in the league knows a ton of people…but all that matters is actual followership and influence
I don't disagree with the bolded. At this point, it has not driven good coaches here. But, it's only been one bad year for Mayo and Wolf. Let's see what happens with FA, the draft possibilities, and Maye in year 2.
 

twibnotes

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I don't disagree with the bolded. At this point, it has not driven good coaches here. But, it's only been one bad year for Mayo and Wolf. Let's see what happens with FA, the draft possibilities, and Maye in year 2.
I’m with you “on paper.” I realize these guys have not had much time. My concern is that I can find very very little to grasp onto as a sign that they are the right guys. The draft is almost a total miss outside of Maye, free agency was a miss…and there isn’t much Mayo has done well or done better over time. Now we’re seeing quotes from coaches, players and the GM that show a culture of very poor accountability. We’re also hearing that other organizations have a totally different structure with more resources.

I just don’t see any evidence that Mayo or Wolf deserve to keep the reigns of a multi billion dollar organization.
 

RedOctober3829

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The reality is, nobody here knows who Mayo knows in the league, who he has relationships, or who he has for contacts. Yet, it is made out as fact that he doesn't know anyone or has a relationship with anyone. The man has been in the league for 15+ years. It's absolutely crazy to think he has not networked outside of this team or in league circles. And again, the man was very well respected as a player and assistant coach in the league BEFORE he was hired. So, yes, you are making shit up to validate wanting him fired.

There are very valid reasons other coaches did not come here. A rookie HC, the overall state of team and those coaches expectations of where the team would be at years end, interest from better teams, QB play from a vet backup/rookie QB, Kraft keeping staff and development/analytics teams small, coaches and families not wanting to live in NE, etc.

The only posters who have said anything about Mayo not having contacts/relationships around the league are those loudest about wanting him fired. That is not evidence.
You are going to the extreme in saying that anyone bringing the lack of contacts factor up is meaning he has zero of them which just isn’t true. He certainly knows people. But there’s a difference between knowing someone and having a working relationship with them. Other coaches/staff are more likely going to feel more comfortable recommending a person for a job to somebody they have worked with in the past or have a connection through somebody else. There’s a trust factor. The athletics business is all about relationships having worked in it for almost 20 years. You can be as well respected as you want as Mayo is, but he just hasn’t been anywhere else besides NE and hasn’t been a coach for a long time so logically his network is smaller than someone who’s worked in multiple orgs and it is a factor when it comes to building a quality staff out.
 

Dogman

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I’m with you “on paper.” I realize these guys have not had much time. My concern is that I can find very very little to grasp onto as a sign that they are the right guys. The draft is almost a total miss outside of Maye, free agency was a miss…and there isn’t much Mayo has done well or done better over time. Now we’re seeing quotes from coaches, players and the GM that show a culture of very poor accountability. We’re also hearing that other organizations have a totally different structure with more resources.

I just don’t see any evidence that Mayo or Wolf deserve to keep the reigns of a multi billion dollar organization.

And that is completely fair. I'm very unhappy with the state of the team as well. I'm not defending the job Mayo or Wolf has done because it has been poor.

So damn frustrating to watch, read about, and discuss this team.
 

GB5

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Do we think we hear from Kraft either way on Monday? If he is firing Mayo or Wolf I would imagine we would hear on Monday or Tuesday at the latest.

However, in the alternative, if he is keeping Mayo do we hear from him on Monday to quell the noise, or is silence an assumption that he is staying?
 

E5 Yaz

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Do we think we hear from Kraft either way on Monday? If he is firing Mayo or Wolf I would imagine we would hear on Monday or Tuesday at the latest.

However, in the alternative, if he is keeping Mayo do we hear from him on Monday to quell the noise, or is silence an assumption that he is staying?
I think if he's keeping him, it comes out before the game tomorrow. Ends the suspense, motivates the team and, most importantly, grabs the coaching decision spotlight for himself
 

Mystic Merlin

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Do we think we hear from Kraft either way on Monday? If he is firing Mayo or Wolf I would imagine we would hear on Monday or Tuesday at the latest.

However, in the alternative, if he is keeping Mayo do we hear from him on Monday to quell the noise, or is silence an assumption that he is staying?
Bill wasn’t formally fired until Wednesday/Thursday following the Jets loss last year.
 

Dogman

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I have no clue what to expect or when to expect it. Kraft has really got us all unsure of everything he may be thinking given everything that has transpired this season.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Please ban my account. I'm not going to participate on a forum that has a mod abusing his authority and moderating users opinions. Especially when he has reading comprehension issues.
Eh. Get used to it. I called him on it a few weeks ago and simply had the post deleted. DMed him asking why and got a sarcastic reply. Hell, pretty good chance this one gets deleted too.

Most of it seems to be happening at night. Maybe he turns into a gremlin after his midnight snack.
 
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The reality is, nobody here knows who Mayo knows in the league, who he has relationships, or who he has for contacts. Yet, it is made out as fact that he doesn't know anyone or has a relationship with anyone. The man has been in the league for 15+ years. It's absolutely crazy to think he has not networked outside of this team or in league circles. And again, the man was very well respected as a player and assistant coach in the league BEFORE he was hired. So, yes, you are making shit up to validate wanting him fired.

There are very valid reasons other coaches did not come here. A rookie HC, the overall state of team and those coaches expectations of where the team would be at years end, interest from better teams, QB play from a vet backup/rookie QB, Kraft keeping staff and development/analytics teams small, coaches and families not wanting to live in NE, etc.

The only posters who have said anything about Mayo not having contacts/relationships around the league are those loudest about wanting him fired. That is not evidence.
Is there any evidence he was “very well respected” as an inside linebackers coach by anyone outside of the Pats inner circle?

He was a smart player who always received accolades for his football IQ on field but outside of puff pieces and comments from some Pats coaches, I don’t recall much in the way of praise for him as a linebackers coach.

And just being a player for a while doesn’t give you a coaching network

Not entirely disagreeing with your premise that the lack of network is overblown but he hasn’t worked with many guys who weren’t part of BB’s staff in 2023 and many of those guys are guys who it wouldn’t make sense to bring back.
 

NomarsFool

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It’s certainly possible he didn’t mean it to sound that way, but Wolf saying he expected more internal development is most easily read as a clear shot at the coaching staff and/or the players themselves. It is not a self criticism, because, logically, players should develop. He’s not wrong on that. Where he could have been wrong was thinking too highly of the players on last year’s roster with regards to how good they were and whether they should be resigned. If he had said that he maybe overvalued their own guys - that would have been taking responsibility.
 

Jinhocho

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I don't disagree with the bolded. At this point, it has not driven good coaches here. But, it's only been one bad year for Mayo and Wolf. Let's see what happens with FA, the draft possibilities, and Maye in year 2.
I just dont think we have the luxury. The development of Drake Maye is too important to entrust to Mayo, who at this point looks far closer to a buffoon than a savant.

It was a huge mistake to hire him and the best to be done is to admit the error and move on. What counts for more - Krafts ego or the multi billion dollar business?
 

BigJimEd

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As the hier apparent, Mayo has presumably been networking and identifying guys he'd like to have on his staff for years.

Doesn't mean those coaches want to work with him but convincing them is part of the job especially first time coaches.

I don't remember Mayo's quotes but if he said he doesn't know enough coaches that's on him.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Given the attrativeness of the Pats situation (provided ownership is willing to invest), it would border on the criminal to run it back after this season.
 

NomarsFool

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One of my fears is that the team rallies around him and pulls it out today. Players most typically have loyalty for their coach, whether it has been earned or not. You work with someone closely for a year, spend a lot of time with them, unless the person is a jerk - you usually are going to feel loyalty to them.
 

BigSoxFan

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One of my fears is that the team rallies around him and pulls it out today. Players most typically have loyalty for their coach, whether it has been earned or not. You work with someone closely for a year, spend a lot of time with them, unless the person is a jerk - you usually are going to feel loyalty to them.
Maye’s quotes are a good indication of this. By all accounts, he’s a good guy. He just seems to be a good guy who was put into a situation that he was nowhere near ready for. And that’s not Mayo’s fault, that’s Kraft’s.
 

Ed Hillel

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Phil Perry on the 98.5 pregame said he thought they wouldn’t fire Mayo unless they had Vrabel lined up.
I mean reality is they can probably line up almost any candidate that wants to coach right now because of Maye and all their assets. They might have to commit to firing Wolf, but I don’t think lining up a top coaching candidate would be too difficult atm.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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The NY Post would have a field day with this firing.

Hold the Mayo.

Mayo Spread too Thin. Team Lacked Flavor.

More like Jerod Miracle Whip.

How many keys were clicked on this very site by people screaming from on high "KRAFT'S EGO WILL NEVER LET HIM FIRE MAYO!!!!"?

Hopefully they aren't committing the same mistake again and just anointing Vrabel. Clean house and do an actual search.
 

pdaj

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As a Dolphins fan, I want the Patriots to keep Mayo.

Generally, it's smart to give first-time HC a lot of patience, as growing pains are to be expected. The caveat, however, is when the first season is a bonafide disaster. While that may be a tad bit too strong a language to describe Mayo's first season, it's certainly flirted with being so.

And when you consider the following: 1) Kraft's age. 2) Having the franchise QB in place. 3) Possibly having the #1 overall pick ... the franchise will likely never be in position to attract the right leader as HC. Can you risk it by bringing Mayo back?

IMO, no way.

I hope I'm wrong, though. Because Vrabel in New England next year is too fucking perfect.
 

Cellar-Door

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Obviously speculation but I always felt that the sudden local media blitz of "Vrabel and only Vrabel can save us" felt like a push by Jonathan. Breer recently talking about Jonathan not being a Mayo fan and any change likely being him convincing his father only solidified it.

I assume they do a quick sham process then hire Vrabel. Probably makes the team better next year he's a solid coach. But doesn't really fix structural issues
 

jsinger121

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Obviously speculation but I always felt that the sudden local media blitz of "Vrabel and only Vrabel can save us" felt like a push by Jonathan. Breer recently talking about Jonathan not being a Mayo fan and any change likely being him convincing his father only solidified it.

I assume they do a quick sham process then hire Vrabel. Probably makes the team better next year he's a solid coach. But doesn't really fix structural issues
Have to think they are going to blow everyone out if they are bringing someone like Vrabel in. I still run good sham search though in interviewing Flores, Ben Johnson, Aaron Glenn and others just to say you actually went through a process whether its sham or not.
 

radsoxfan

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I legitimately feel bad for Mayo.

He had limited experience and was thrown into the worst roster situation in the league. I don't think he has shown to be a good head coach but it was basically doomed from the start.

I hope he lands on his feet and ends up as a successful D coordinator or something. Maybe even someday he could try out HC again.... but at this point he is in over his head and a change is certainly needed for the 2025 Patriots.

I just hope he doesn't gift us a win on his way out.
 

Cellar-Door

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I legitimately feel bad for Mayo.

He had limited experience and was thrown into the worst roster situation in the league. I don't think he has shown to be a good head coach but it was basically doomed from the start.

I hope he lands on his feet and ends up as a successful D coordinator or something. Maybe even someday he could try out HC again.... but at this point he is in over his head and a change is certainly needed for the 2025 Patriots.

I just hope he doesn't gift us a win on his way out.
I don't particularly feel bad for him, in part because this is what he signed up for. He could have gone to another team as the DC/playcaller previously and gotten a lot of the experience he needed, he chose to stay for the guarantee of the HC job even if that meant stagnation while he waited for the coach (who didn't ask him to he HC in waiting) to leave.

I do think he was doomed to fail though, the roster is bad, and he is making a huge jump. It sure seemed like he didn;'t have a real plan, possibly because he got elevated before he expected (ie he had no coordinators lined up, no idea what he wanted to do on offense, etc.) and through the season he was so far behind in so many areas that it seemed like he just drowned and couldn't improve, where a coach who had more experience in SOME areas of the job, like a guy who had run the whole offense or defense top to bottom for a few years could have focused on the few areas he was struggling.
 

luckiestman

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Smoke signals seem to be Vrabel to Pats. I don’t get why they didn’t hire him last year or why Bobby is so quick to dump his guy but it is what it is. Hopefully Woody gets into a bidding war to at least make Kraft pay him a ton of money.

In some ways a CEO type to NE might be better for me than you guys gettin Liam Coen so silver lining and all that.
 

8slim

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As a Dolphins fan, I want the Patriots to keep Mayo.

Generally, it's smart to give first-time HC a lot of patience, as growing pains are to be expected. The caveat, however, is when the first season is a bonafide disaster. While that may be a tad bit too strong a language to describe Mayo's first season, it's certainly flirted with being so.

And when you consider the following: 1) Kraft's age. 2) Having the franchise QB in place. 3) Possibly having the #1 overall pick ... the franchise will likely never be in position to attract the right leader as HC. Can you risk it by bringing Mayo back?

IMO, no way.

I hope I'm wrong, though. Because Vrabel in New England next year is too fucking perfect.
Flirting with disaster, eh?
 

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Cellar-Door

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Smoke signals seem to be Vrabel to Pats. I don’t get why they didn’t hire him last year or why Bobby is so quick to dump his guy but it is what it is. Hopefully Woody gets into a bidding war to at least make Kraft pay him a ton of money.

In some ways a CEO type to NE might be better for me than you guys gettin Liam Coen so silver lining and all that.
My assumption is.... Bob made the call, Jonathan wanted Vrabel, The combination of Mayo being his project, plus the buyout money pushed Bob to stick to his guns. Now... Vrabel is still out there, Jon is still pushing, and public opinion, both among fans and analysts is that Vrabel is a much better coach.... which pushes him back over the line.
 

luckiestman

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Always appreciate an organization letting reporters know that they plan to do something the league is already being sued for.
This fits so easily into a pre-existing NFL narrative, throw in Boston and there will be some blowback even if I think it’s the correct football decision.
 

jsinger121

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My assumption is.... Bob made the call, Jonathan wanted Vrabel, The combination of Mayo being his project, plus the buyout money pushed Bob to stick to his guns. Now... Vrabel is still out there, Jon is still pushing, and public opinion, both among fans and analysts is that Vrabel is a much better coach.... which pushes him back over the line.
Have to agree with this. Jonathan not being at the Mayo press conference was the first hint that he might not have been on board with this.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Smoke signals seem to be Vrabel to Pats. I don’t get why they didn’t hire him last year or why Bobby is so quick to dump his guy but it is what it is. Hopefully Woody gets into a bidding war to at least make Kraft pay him a ton of money.

In some ways a CEO type to NE might be better for me than you guys gettin Liam Coen so silver lining and all that.
He had that moronic $10 million clause about becoming the next HC, so it was probably a combination of true belief in his coaching potential and not wanting to pay out that 10 milly.
 

Kramerica Industries

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I think he was “doomed to fail” in the sense he wasn’t making the playoffs.

But 3 wins with average QB play in this league is hard to do and we can reasonably point to 2-3 games where coaching was likely the biggest reason they lost despite the roster being what it is.

Would Mayo be in this spot without the unforced walk it back Monday mistakes, a 6-10 record and Maye developing? Maybe not.

Mayo got a legit opportunity, made countless unforced errors that were in his control and was presumably paid millions. Hard to feel bad for him
 

radsoxfan

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I don't particularly feel bad for him, in part because this is what he signed up for. He could have gone to another team as the DC/playcaller previously and gotten a lot of the experience he needed, he chose to stay for the guarantee of the HC job even if that meant stagnation while he waited for the coach (who didn't ask him to he HC in waiting) to leave.
Certainly it's in part his own doing, though I think it's hard to expect anyone to purposely avoid a HC job if it's on the table. Just because in theory he probably should have known this was a likely outcome, I can still feel bad for him.

Maybe I just feel bad for most unqualified/underprepared people that end up in a high pressure job they are unable to do (Mayo seems like a nice enough guy, I don't find him unlikeable as a person or anything).

It's just kind of painful to watch.
 

tims4wins

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I'm fine if not overly thrilled with the idea of Vrabel. His choice of OC will be crucial. He'll certainly bring competence back. I think we are all thirsting for just a return to postseason football.
 

Cellar-Door

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He had that moronic $10 million clause about becoming the next HC, so it was probably a combination of true belief in his coaching potential and not wanting to pay out that 10 milly.
I will also say... lot of things happened along the way to change his mind. Mayo really struggled to find coaches to fill his staff, doubt that was in Kraft's vision, I also wonder if dangling Wolf, then not doing a search was because in backchannels, the top GM candidates didn't want to come be tied to Mayo (the coach being hired first usually means he has more pull with the owners), the offseason was a mess, the defense fell apart (I assume part of the thought was Mayo could run BB's D and have similar success), there were all of the embarrassing public missteps with the press, national mockery both of Mayo and Kraft, looking at the worst record in the league when you expected to be better......
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm fine if not overly thrilled with the idea of Vrabel. His choice of OC will be crucial. He'll certainly bring competence back. I think we are all thirsting for just a return to postseason football.
The GM will be crucial too... does he bring a vet guy who is in line but a strong counter to him... or does he bring a 1st timer he thinks he can run over?
 

Dollar

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I wonder if a move for Vrabel could involve also bringing his Titans GM Jon Robinson back to New England where he was the director of college scouting during some pretty good Pats drafts from 09-13.
 

jsinger121

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I'm fine if not overly thrilled with the idea of Vrabel. His choice of OC will be crucial. He'll certainly bring competence back. I think we are all thirsting for just a return to postseason football.
He hired Matt LaFleur as his first OC and then had Arthur Smith who did go on to be a HC himself. I’m not worried about him finding the OC. He has a good network around the league and is a respected coach. If he has Drake Maye he can get a pretty good OC in my opinion.
 

tims4wins

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I also wonder if Caserio could be an option if they gave him the title of president / director of football ops or whatever. He’d be my dream candidate, I think.
 
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