I really thought Mayo would develop, but the last three weeks have been really embarrassing. Thinking about this from a forward-looking perspective, it's going to be really hard to get the best free agents with a bad team, cold weather/high taxes/whatever else, and unproven coach with foot-in-mouth disease. I suppose going with other unknown names carries the same risk, but at this point, I think it'll be better than a coach who ran the team through an embarrassing year and talks about his players negatively in the press.
Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.
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It is what it is but I've heard plenty of media talk about Vrabel when discussing "the BB tree"
For someone who has such extensive experience in the corporate world at Optum, he went from playing NFL football with no corporate experience to a "finance executive" as his first job at Optum and then was "VP of Business Development" (which could be a not real job, an actual leadership job or a job leading a bunch of kids out of college) and then left after 3 years.
BTW I seem to believe the Optum Field Lounge to be a thing at Gillette Stadium. Must be unrelated.
I had really high hopes for Mayo, but he's been a disaster. The corporate world stuff is enough to blow a fucking gasket, I know how that works 99% of the time, he got hooked up, they used him for corporate events and PR. I know nothing about his time there, but there's no way he'd get a job in any sort of "Executive" or "VP role" if he didn't play in the NFL and that's fine, but the "experience in the corporate world" stuff is such bullshit.
I was onboard with them hiring Mayo, great Middle LB, had the Green Dot, spent 5 years as an assistant, but holy shit he couldn't be worse. I'm seriously questioning how he succeeded in the NFL as a player at this point. People think Dan Campbell is a meat head at times, Mayo's even worse. He's the guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else, but everyone knows he's an idiot.
BTW I seem to believe the Optum Field Lounge to be a thing at Gillette Stadium. Must be unrelated.
I had really high hopes for Mayo, but he's been a disaster. The corporate world stuff is enough to blow a fucking gasket, I know how that works 99% of the time, he got hooked up, they used him for corporate events and PR. I know nothing about his time there, but there's no way he'd get a job in any sort of "Executive" or "VP role" if he didn't play in the NFL and that's fine, but the "experience in the corporate world" stuff is such bullshit.
I was onboard with them hiring Mayo, great Middle LB, had the Green Dot, spent 5 years as an assistant, but holy shit he couldn't be worse. I'm seriously questioning how he succeeded in the NFL as a player at this point. People think Dan Campbell is a meat head at times, Mayo's even worse. He's the guy who thinks he's smarter than everyone else, but everyone knows he's an idiot.
All fair to suggest and perhaps warranting of moving on but the roster is so bad it’s actually hard to prove.
Its actually pretty easy to prove. A competent coach wins games against Seattle, Miami (1st time) and Indianapolis.
I felt this way for most of the season until the Arizona game, this coaching staff is a joke and the FO is no better, time to clean house.
Yeah I enjoy it but I never agree with anyone 100% of the time. Was just a small world thing when he reached out to me one night and was like hey its me
It is funny because I had been reading that account for a long assed while.
if i coached your team here what i wouild do
1 build around maye go to a power spead type of off no hudd kind of the k-gun with tweaks
2sell the krafts on a 2 yr plan 25 and 26
3 here who i wouild cut v lowe save 1.1 no dead $
4 trade down in draft get a LT have a plan over 2 years to have around 40-42 new players
1 build around maye go to a power spead type of off no hudd kind of the k-gun with tweaks
2sell the krafts on a 2 yr plan 25 and 26
3 here who i wouild cut v lowe save 1.1 no dead $
4 trade down in draft get a LT have a plan over 2 years to have around 40-42 new players
I’ve said here before that I don’t care much about the presser stuff… however… his constant flailing on that front is indicative of a guy who simply isn’t prepared. He’s just winging it. Reacting.
I don’t think Mayo has a plan. I don’t know if he’s ever had a plan. Did Mayo have his version of the 200 page manifesto that mapped out what he wanted to accomplish in his first year as coach? I doubt it. And his random, off the cuff nature at pressers is a small window into that all, IMHO.
Not sure, but I’d give it to him.
View: https://twitter.com/patriotsclns/status/1869744500123275292?s=61&t=WWGHM95bxKssUmh_6owWFg
From what we’ve seen post Josh, if he comes back, @Smiling Joe Hesketh is forbidden from complaining about a 3rd and 7 draw play ever again.
Of course Vrabel would have an interest. By all indications, he wants to be a head coach again.
Vrabel and McDaniels. A reset to the old Patriot Way with inferior coaches. That feels like a recipe for an 11 win season at best and an early exit from the playoffs.
What this thread actually wants is a return to the peak era BB Pats. I don't make firm predictions much but I will here. Those days are never coming back again.
If they decide to move off Mayo I would hope they bring in entirely new blood. The worst thing a sports franchise can do is try to get the band back together. Its seeking mediocrity.
People should really read up more on Vrabel. His thread here might be a doozy.
What this thread actually wants is a return to the peak era BB Pats. I don't make firm predictions much but I will here. Those days are never coming back again.
If they decide to move off Mayo I would hope they bring in entirely new blood. The worst thing a sports franchise can do is try to get the band back together. Its seeking mediocrity.
People should really read up more on Vrabel. His thread here might be a doozy.
I'm about as big a fan of Vrabel as there is but hiring him would be further proof that Kraft just doesn't get it. He desperately needs to make a real change and accept the fact that there are actually qualified people in the NFL who haven't worked for the Patriots. Ownership needs to meet with qualified candidates, talk about long-term plans, weigh options, and actually put some effort into this rather than yet again just going through the short list of people they already know.
Regarding Dan Campbell, posting this here from 2021 when he and his Lions were 0-10-1:
(It's eerie how accurate this blogger was about Campbell and the Lions, huh?)
Anyway, most of us above have been saying the situations aren't analogous and Mayo is not about to be the next Campbell (and I'm not suggesting Mayo's coaching resume is as good as Campbell's was when he was hired as HC).
Still, is there anyone who feels differently after reading that summary above? For me... I wish I did... and I still don't know how to evaluate this exactly. But my summary of 2024's conclusions remains: "Maye is the guy. Mayo is not."
That said, it's a blog post that continues with the author arguing that this is too rash:
https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2021/11/29/22806363/monday-overreactions-stop-calling-for-dan-campbells-job-in-year-1
(It's eerie how accurate this blogger was about Campbell and the Lions, huh?)
Anyway, most of us above have been saying the situations aren't analogous and Mayo is not about to be the next Campbell (and I'm not suggesting Mayo's coaching resume is as good as Campbell's was when he was hired as HC).
Still, is there anyone who feels differently after reading that summary above? For me... I wish I did... and I still don't know how to evaluate this exactly. But my summary of 2024's conclusions remains: "Maye is the guy. Mayo is not."
Vrabel has already done better than that with a worse QB.
I’d love a return to the greatest peak in league history, but that’s not realistic. What I want as a starting point is competence. You can win at a high level with competence. Competence is difficult to find. Our current situation is a complete traveshamockery.
You want the BB peak Pats again and who wouldn't? We probably aren't getting them .
Vrabel's record in Tennessee should include what happened after that too but people seem to be disregarding it. Others have posted the metrics around those teams so forgive me if I am skeptical. He may be competent but diminishing returns seem to happen with Vrabes tactics .
Also after reading the Athletic piece about Woody Johnson today, I am ok with the Krafts. They certainly aren't perfect but as owners go, by allowing Mayo at least this season they are showing some patience. Its pretty clear that the Boston media and fanbase wants Mayo fired yesterday - and it feels safe to assume that they are at least aware of that dynamic. Otoh, if they keep bringing in Patriot Way types, they are likely begging mediocrity for the next few seasons.
Anyone expecting a smooth transition from the lightning strike that was the BB Patriots was being unrealistic. If they are bringing in the new coach go get the best available. They have the centerpiece so its probably an easier ask than some here are arguing - with the right amount of money- for just about anyone who is open to the role. And then we likely have to repeat the process where the team likely struggles in spots and fans/media want blood again.
This is how most NFL fans experienced the sport over the past ~20 years.
I thought Josh was a fantastic OC. If he came back as an OC I'd be happy. He made Mac Jones look competent at times, and Mac should be selling GMCs, not playing in the NFL. He also drew up a whole new offense for the Cam year, which worked pretty darn well at times before Cam got Covid.
I would have rather let BB hold on for the next few years if this was going to be the result.
Maybe the team hired Mayo to intentionally tank this year, only logical answer.
Maybe the team hired Mayo to intentionally tank this year, only logical answer.
The note above about Dan Campbell is telling, because they are noting that the team played hard for him when they were losing. The Pats defense played their fucking asses off down the stretch last year despite HISTORIC incompetence on the offensive side, and for that reason alone I thought BB should have been brought back.
Instead we get whatever this is (gestures broadly).
This post gives me the chance to say out loud something I've thought off and on the last several weeks
One big difference between the Patriots and the Celtics over the last ~25 years is that Celtics have had consistent great general managers since 2003 (first Ainge, now Stevens). In part as a result, they've had consistently strong coaches (Doc, Stevens, Ime, Mazzulla)
The Patriots have had one great head coach. And that did not result in consistently strong general managers.
If I could go back in time I wouldn't try and hold on to BB for more years. I think what the end of BB's run indicates is that winning with a great HC and a bad front office is really, really hard. If anything, I'd use Brady's departure as the spring board for a serious GM search. And if BB couldn't live with the new (ideally great) GM...
Better to have a great front office and let them find a strong coach.
I have no idea what BB does with the 2024 draft but if you gave me 2 options:
1) Let go of BB but get franchise QB in Maye
or
2) Keep BB and not pick Maye
I’m taking Door #1. The issue here is the process to replace BB was terrible. We all knew that 2024 BB was going to be a better head coach than anyone we got. What we were hoping for is that the gap wouldn’t be so pronounced in 2025 and beyond. And with Mayo, I’m taking BB as coach over him for like the next 15 years. He is that bad.
Just my opinion, but I think its very likely we don't draft Maye if Bill is still here.
Whether BB would have picked Maye or traded down is still unsourced speculation. However, if the rumors of BB wanting to dump Jones and bring in Baker Mayfield are true that almost certainly would have led to not having Maye as their draft position would not have been third with at least a couple more wins.
Even without his comments on draft day about the various options, I feel like the Mac disaster would have influenced him to trade down rather than go for best QB available again.
Yeah, hard to know but I’m taking the young franchise QB over the great 72 year-old coach every day of the week. My biggest disappointment is that we couldn’t go back to a Belichick/Pioli arrangement that worked so well earlier in the dynasty. I think Belichick just took on too much responsibility and it became hard to manage as he aged.
I'm not sure that what he learned from picking Mac Jones at 15 is that a mid 1st round QB is probably fine.
One of you asked Breer about this and he posted his answer today:
https://www.si.com/nfl/ben-johnson-criteria-for-potential-coaching-opportunities
Also in the mailbag, an interesting Q/A regarding Ben Johnson
https://www.si.com/nfl/ben-johnson-criteria-for-potential-coaching-opportunities
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I’m not wholeheartedly on the Vrabel train, but I’d be absolutely thrilled to bring McDaniels back as OC. Not only do I think he’d be fantastic for Maye’s development, I think he was pretty underrated by Patriots fans as a play caller. And he is never getting a head coaching job again, so barring colossal flameout you’d have your OC tied to Maye as long as it’s working out.
It’s the one “let’s once again try to run back the good vibes of the dynasty” hiring plan that I’d be completely on board with.
It’s the one “let’s once again try to run back the good vibes of the dynasty” hiring plan that I’d be completely on board with.
This logic would be appealing if I had any confidence that the rest of the footballing side of the organization was in good shape and not hopelessly behind the times.
But I don't think that's the case. None of us have an insider's view of the organization but there is a lot to suggest that this is an operation that is way behind in all sorts of ways - from in-game strategy to college scouting to the way that advanced analytics are deployed throughout the organization, maybe even in other areas like physical conditioning and the medical team.
This is what tends to happen when one genius-level person dominates an organization for 20+ years. You get set in your ways, you don't have the same pressures to innovate as your competitors, and that person's genius covers up a lot of flaws and organizational decay.
The core problem with the Patriots isn't that they have a bad head coach (they do) its that they need a more fundamental organizational reset. And when you're in that position you should use every opportunity to bring in people with new ideas and who have been exposed to different kinds of environments, rather than just looking to run it back with former players and former coordinators. They've already missed a big opportunity to do this last offseason. Doing it twice in a row would be malpractice.
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Who knows what BB would have done with the 3rd overall pick in the draft, but there is certainly a universe where BB is still coaching the Pats, they stink because the roster is a bottom 5 roster in the league, and they didn't pick Drake Maye. Given that things played out the way they did, I'm happy we ended up with Maye even if the cost of that is Mayo.
The issue, as others have already noted, wasn't that they moved on from BB. It is that they handed the job to someone who doesn't seem ready for it, and may never be.
If they do move on from Mayo, for the love of Christ, please do not just hand the job to Vrabel. He can interview for sure, but run a real fucking process.
The issue, as others have already noted, wasn't that they moved on from BB. It is that they handed the job to someone who doesn't seem ready for it, and may never be.
If they do move on from Mayo, for the love of Christ, please do not just hand the job to Vrabel. He can interview for sure, but run a real fucking process.
I don't think he would have picked a first round QB, but we're getting into the weeds for the thread.
Two things can be true:
1) BB was done here and his time had run out. He needed to go.
2) Mayo was not the right hire.
Just because Mayo isn't the guy doesn't mean we shouldn't have let Bill go. When Bill ran out of good officers to run his ship the way he needed them to (and it shouldn't be a debate that this happened) things got sloppy. Without Bill, but with a lot of his 2nd or 3rd generation of people + a handful of others from outside the organization you get the product we have this year. Hiring Mayo was always a massive risk. If Kraft wants to give everyone another year but bring in help because he wants to try and be patient that's fine. But if things don't get significantly better in year 2 he has to be prepared to gut the entire organization from top to bottom and start over.
1) BB was done here and his time had run out. He needed to go.
2) Mayo was not the right hire.
Just because Mayo isn't the guy doesn't mean we shouldn't have let Bill go. When Bill ran out of good officers to run his ship the way he needed them to (and it shouldn't be a debate that this happened) things got sloppy. Without Bill, but with a lot of his 2nd or 3rd generation of people + a handful of others from outside the organization you get the product we have this year. Hiring Mayo was always a massive risk. If Kraft wants to give everyone another year but bring in help because he wants to try and be patient that's fine. But if things don't get significantly better in year 2 he has to be prepared to gut the entire organization from top to bottom and start over.
Lot of brain drain in the front office over the years. Pioli and Dimitroff left a year apart, I think. Jon Robinson went from area scout to director of college scouting before leaving and now the Titans GM. Bob Quinn, Caserio, Ziegler all went on to be GMs. Jason Licht is another. He bounced around a bit but was with the Pats early on in his FO career.
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Forgot Monti Ossenfort, Cardinals GM. He left in 2020, Caserio in '21 and Ziegler in '22.
I do think Mayo will be back but less sure so than I was going into the bye. I don't expect much these last few weeks, just hoping for some competitive games. As others have said, if they do move on, go through a thorough and proper process/ Interviewing multiple candidates. That's asking the bare minimum.
Good summary, and definitely the truth about the brain drain -- I was typing up something similar about how losing Patricia, Flores, McDaniels, Caserio, and Ernie Adams (along with many, many others as @BigJimEd notes above) was clearly a big problem for Bill.
Anyway, I'm not sure what to root for. Mayo doesn't seem like the guy, but what do I know about it? I'm not in the building. I'm not in the meeting rooms. I'm not on the practice field. Heck, I'm not even watching every snap of the season or reviewing the All 22 footage.
Still, I see what we all see: a team that feels directionless, one that seems to be getting worse as the season goes along, and one that offers us almost no hope for the future beyond an outstanding rookie QB.
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This is where I am at.
Mayo seemed well respected not just with the Krafts but people around the league including his former coaches (we all aware that many posters here are not in this camp and never wanted him and hate his hire now more than ever - this is not directed @ you).
That counts for little but maybe he is good and needs help. Or maybe this is his ceiling as a coach.
The one thing I will argue is that this roster is bad. Maybe the best coach gets them to five wins but what does that even accomplish? I don't think Ben Johnson could come in and do much better with these players. Its a lot easier to look good when you have personnel who execute exactly how its drawn up. Regardless of who coaches this team next year and beyond, they need more of those guys.
Absolutely, and I'm someone who both didn't want Belichick to leave and was fine with the Mayo hiring -- Kraft had identified him as "the guy," so I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
And yes, the roster is not just bad but putrid, I'd argue. Still, I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the roster was terrible in 2023 as well, and this team has either not improved (on offense) or gotten significantly worse (on defense). 2023 vs. 2024 rankings:
2023 Offense: 31st in points, 30th in yards
2024 Offense: 31st in points, 30th in yards
2023 Defense: 15th in points, 7th in yards
2024 Defense: 23rd in points, 21st in yards
And sure, injuries happened. But they happen every year. Gonzalez was hurt most of last year, and he's the best player on this defense, for example.
Id give Mayo the benefit of the doubt if they were actually building a program but they really aren’t. While the talent blows the constant mistakes and repeat mistakes are what I can’t overlook. That shows to me he’s a bad fucking coach. The lack of accountability along with his horrible press conferences and throwing his OC basically under the bus and then walking it back on Monday is just icing on the cake. He’s not ready, maybe would never be ready and it’s time to cut the cord on this now. Many teams have done one and done coaches. Just because Kraft likes Mayo shouldn’t stop him from ending this disaster.
Phil Perry was on T&H this morning and suggested that the Kraft's seem inclined to bring Mayo back for another season. He also said that they think the biggest problem is the talent level.
Perry also suggested that there's sentiment towards keeping Mayo, AVP and Covington, clearing house of the "underperforming" assistants, bolstering the roster, and trying again in 2025.
*edit* Perry also said that folks with the Cardinals told him (a) there's one good player on defense, Gonzalez, and (2) the scheme isn't bad, it's just that the personnel is atrocious.
Perry also suggested that there's sentiment towards keeping Mayo, AVP and Covington, clearing house of the "underperforming" assistants, bolstering the roster, and trying again in 2025.
*edit* Perry also said that folks with the Cardinals told him (a) there's one good player on defense, Gonzalez, and (2) the scheme isn't bad, it's just that the personnel is atrocious.
Interesting, thanks for sharing. My two thoughts here include:
1) I haven't heard the level of criticism of Wolf as I have of Mayo. Am I wrong there? Does Wolf get a pass since his most important draft pick has worked out?
2) I'm torn on AVP. On one hand, I have heard it is incredibly difficult on rookie QBs when you keep swapping their offensive coaches out. On the other, I've seen nothing from this offense that has impressed me, but I can't tell how much of that is protecting a rookie QB vs. scheme issues.
I think they are full of shit, the scheme is terrible because it fails to elevate the personnel. This Personnel is not that different than the group from last year that was a top 10 defense under a much better coach. The scheme I guess isn't bad in the sense it is a variant on the same schemes everyone uses, but it lacks the designed pressures and QB confusing play calls that you need. It's an incredibly basic line up and hope you win individual matchups D.... which is barely acceptable with great personnel, and surrender with bad personnel.
The scheme vs the cardinals was one of the handful of times it made sense. And yeah in this instance it was shitty execution… but most of the time it’s bad scheme and execution.
Three of the guys who made awful mistakes or played poorly were Godchaux, Dugger, and Peppers. Three veteran leaders who you just re-signed or extended!
Dugger is having a below replacement level year. He had a bad 2023 when they played him more up top vs in the box and this year their scheme and vision was to… to… repeat the same fit? This is where I would think Wolf and Mayo would have reviewed 2023 and determined that if they want to move to much more 2 high that they shouldn’t re-sign him. He is a box safety in a single high dominant system. This is the kind of mistake Bill didn’t often make. This Is the kind of mistake teams that don’t have a vision and connection between the coaches and the front office make. Think the Lions and KVN or the Cardinals and Reddick.
Paying a guy top of the market money all to have him play 1/3 of his snaps in a role he stinks at.
Regarding AVP, people aren’t concerned about 4 OCs in 4 years? Or two in Maye’s first two years?
What if next year’s new offensive coordinator is worse than AVP, do you make it 3 OCs in Maye’s first three years or stick with an even worse OC than AVP? I see major downside and modest upside to moving on from AVP this offseason. If they get a new head coach he should pick his OC but Mayo picked AVP and AVP has been fine. Give him an offensive linemen or receiver and a second season and see if the players can make this system work as they become more familiar.
On Mayo, I still tend toward another year but I’m open to them assessing where they are at the end of the season. Especially versus where they thought they’d be and if Mayo’s not the guy, they should bring a new coach in. This last week (post bye, continued mistakes) was bad enough that they do need to review his entire season of work at the end of the year. Also same for Wolf, who has not helped Mayo at all.
What if next year’s new offensive coordinator is worse than AVP, do you make it 3 OCs in Maye’s first three years or stick with an even worse OC than AVP? I see major downside and modest upside to moving on from AVP this offseason. If they get a new head coach he should pick his OC but Mayo picked AVP and AVP has been fine. Give him an offensive linemen or receiver and a second season and see if the players can make this system work as they become more familiar.
On Mayo, I still tend toward another year but I’m open to them assessing where they are at the end of the season. Especially versus where they thought they’d be and if Mayo’s not the guy, they should bring a new coach in. This last week (post bye, continued mistakes) was bad enough that they do need to review his entire season of work at the end of the year. Also same for Wolf, who has not helped Mayo at all.
I mentioned the same concern about continually changing offensive coaches up above. So definitely concerned about that as well.
But I don’t see how you can say that AVP has been “fine.”
By what measure? The team is 30th and 31st in points scored and yards gained. They have only scored more than 20 points I believe five times, and are one of the only teams in football to have never scored 30. No question their personnel is terrible, but apart from Maye’s development what is there to hang our hat on in terms of success on that side of the ball?
Maye's development is all that really matters this year though. We have the worst line talent in the league by a good margin given injuries, etc.
Last year when Brian Flores had nothing to work with he ran one of the most exotic defenses out there because he knew if he was vanilla and tried to out execute the other team he would lose over and over again. The results weren’t amazing but they were better than what we are watching every week. When you don’t have good players if you want to win you need to be creative with your scheme. We’re basic on defense and basic on offense. If your response is well they don’t have good enough players to be that exotic I would point you back to the Vikings last year. Stop running a conservative, simplistic, and stale (and I mean stale… AVP is living in 2016-2018) offense! For the defense it’s an indictment of the coaching staff that everyone but White and Gonzo (maybe Marcus Jones) who was on the team last year has taken a step back this year. Fundamentals look like garbage too.
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