Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.

[Trapaholic]

Ideally, about half of this roster will be turned over before next training camp. If Mayo's best traits right now are leadership and creating "buy-in", that is fine in my opinion.

If Maye, Gonzalez, Barmore, and even Marcus Jones are bought in and believe in the guy - that is a big advantage for Mayo. This is a pretty low bar for sure, but this is an expansion team level of talent that we are dealing with both on the field and off.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

As we look forward, however, its impossible to avoid the following question: What is the case for Mayo being a good bet to grow into one of the better head coaches in the league? I honestly don't even know what that case would look like at this point, beyond inertia and blind hope. And if its not likely, then what are we doing here?

I would argue that some fans opinions are so crystallized that it would be impossible for them to see any improvement, if it happens at all. To them, Mayo is incapable of getting better as a coach.

Then there is the rest of us who are watching an objectively talent bereft roster go out and hang with superior teams for most of the recent games. To me that's a positive but only in context for this season. I am really interested in seeing if this team quits at some point over their remaining games. That, to me, is a bigger concern than sloppy play and decision making from people learning on the job. If they play hard to the end, I think Mayo deserves more run.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Cross-posting here, but this alone makes Mayo not the person for the job. He is taking the objectively wrong approach to his decision-making. We’re past the “Moneyball” release date in the NFL for aggression vs. traditional conservatism, it’s all out of the bag. The philosophy Mayo adheres to is outdated (especially with all the offense-favored rule changes), and anyone who abides by it should, and eventually will, go the way of the Dodo:
View: https://twitter.com/dougkyed/status/1863596488724758731?s=46

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I would argue that some fans opinions are so crystallized that it would be impossible for them to see any improvement, if it happens at all. To them, Mayo is incapable of getting better as a coach.

Then there is the rest of us who are watching an objectively talent bereft roster go out and hang with superior teams for most of the recent games. To me that's a positive but only in context for this season. I am really interested in seeing if this team quits at some point over their remaining games. That, to me, is a bigger concern than sloppy play and decision making from people learning on the job. If they play hard to the end, I think Mayo deserves more run.

The majority of NFL games are one score games. The only thing that separates the good teams from the bad ones is that good teams win their close games, and bad teams do not. Literally every team can hang with superior teams. That is absolutely meaningless in discussing Mayo's coaching. Jacksonville hung in with a much better Houston team just yesterday despite being handicapped with having to use Mac Jones at QB. Carolina hung with TB. Chicago nearly beat Detroit. It happens all the time.

As for quitting, what the hell did they do in Miami just last week?

They played hard for BB last year and he got the sack. Playing hard for an inept coach shouldn't change any equations.

 

[rodderick]

Carolina was being talked about as a potentially historically awful team a month ago, and they're playing everyone tough. It's the NFL. It's hard to win games and most of them are competitive. Even the dregs of the league aren't being routinely blown out every week.

 

[johnmd20]

Even the dregs of the league aren't being routinely blown out every week.

Except for the Cowboys at home unless they are facing Drew Lock.

 

[lexrageorge]

The team is not "wasting" a year of Drake Maye. In fact, the development of Maye, a player that Belichick pretty much disdained in his pre-draft analysis, has been a huge bright spot and is one key factor that is a plus for the coaching staff right now. Most of the rest of the roster sucks; the OL/WR group is by far the worst in the league, and several other position groups have significant holes.

If the roster doesn't improve next season, then the team will indeed be wasting a year of Maye's rookie contract. And that will rest on Wolf's shoulders.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

“They play hard for the coach” is just about the lowest possible bar to clear

most guys play hard because careers are short and they don’t want to wash out of the league

the vast majority of horrendous coaches don’t have the entire team just quit on them. For the same reasons players aren’t “tanking” games whenever that inevitably comes up.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

The team is not "wasting" a year of Drake Maye. In fact, the development of Maye, a player that Belichick pretty much disdained in his pre-draft analysis, has been a huge bright spot and is one key factor that is a plus for the coaching staff right now. Most of the rest of the roster sucks; the OL/WR group is by far the worst in the league, and several other position groups have significant holes.

If the roster doesn't improve next season, then the team will indeed be wasting a year of Maye's rookie contract. And that will rest on Wolf's shoulders.

the OL and WR are arguably worse, or at least exactly the same level of inept as last year.

That should already be on Wolf’s shoulders. He knew he’d be bringing in a young potential franchise QB and surrounded him with trash.

whether or not we use the term “wasting” or just “failing to support”, Wolf’s work last offseason is the opposite of trying to build a good environment for a young QB.

I also don’t understand why BB’s thoughts on Maye keep getting raised in these discussions.

 

[lexrageorge]

the OL and WR are arguably worse, or at least exactly the same level of inept as last year.

That should already be on Wolf’s shoulders. He knew he’d be bringing in a young potential franchise QB and surrounded him with trash.

whether or not we use the term “wasting” or just “failing to support”, Wolf’s work last offseason is the opposite of trying to build a good environment for a young QB.

I also don’t understand why BB’s thoughts on Maye keep getting raised in these discussions.

GM's are normally given at least a couple of seasons to rebuild a roster. Often longer.

As to your final sentence, the reason was obvious in my post. Belichick's thoughts on Maye were not all that unusual - most draft pundits thought Maye had the tools and skills but was young and raw and was going to need some NFL seasoning to work on the various flaws in his game/mechanics. The general consensus was that Maye could end up starting a smattering of games by the end of the season, but fans would need to wait until 2025 for Maye to become a true full-time starting QB. Maye has beaten those consensus estimates already. Maybe it's all due to Maye being an excellent student of the game and learning by practicing and watching. Or perhaps the coaching staff had something to do with Maye's development as well.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

 

[Erik Hanson's Hook]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

 

[jsinger121]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

That's actually probably a good comp. Whether the owner sees that and does something is another story.

 

[Arroyoyo]

If they don’t get this kid a true #1 WR, a #2, at least a league-average line, and a functional HC in 2025…

We riot.

Rookie contracts aren’t long enough to fuck around with cute PR moves year after year. Get it right. Run your business like someone capable of doing so, RKK.

This year, this offseason, be the Yankees. Make every move you have to make as to not infuriate your fanbase. You have a 22 year old stud playing like a 5 year vet. DO NOT BLOW THIS.

Start with removing the HC on the first day of the offseason.

 

[Salem's Lot]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

Except ML Carr was brought in specifically to tank the season for a generational talent at the top of the draft.

In this case the owner actually thinks Jerod Mayo is going to be a good head coach.

 

[Salem's Lot]

If they don’t get this kid a true #1 WR, a #2, at least a league-average line, and a functional HC in 2025…

We riot.

Rookie contracts aren’t long enough to fuck around with cute PR moves year after year. Get it right. Run your business like someone capable of doing so, RKK.

This year, this offseason, be the Yankees. Make every move you have to make as to not infuriate your fanbase. You have a 22 year old stud playing like a 5 year vet. DO NOT BLOW THIS.

Start with removing the HC on the first day of the offseason.

The best things that fans can do to protest is stop buying the tickets and the merchandise, not supporting the sponsors. That’s the only way to really get the message across to ownership.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

I think Mayo is somewhere on the Monty Williams-Brett Brown-Mike Budenholzer spectrum

He was first a player and then an assistant coach under one of the greatest coaches of all time (Popovich, 'natch) as part of a dynastic program that won multiple championships over different eras with different groups of players. He then was hand selected out of lots of candidates by the GOAT to join the bench and was a successful assistant for some years. Eventually, as often happens to the perceived favorite lieutenants of GOAT coaches, he got the chance to have his own team and be HC himself.

Will Mayo-- like Monty Williams-- go down as someone that the players love but whose teams underperform? Will he-- like Brett Brown-- end up being a good soldier who is competent but unexceptional and eventually cast aside for someone with more cache? Or-- like Budenholzer- will he withstand the criticism to turn into a strong HC who is ultimately gets a championship in a year when he's got one of the most talented rosters in the league?

From my spot in the cheap seats that's a TBD.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

He's freaking Hagrid. He shoots his mouth off and then says "I should not have said that."

 

[NomarsFool]

The value of prior playing experience as a coach comes up a lot, and I think it's an interesting question. Certainly, the players are very likely to have more respect for someone who played professionally, and especially someone who played professionally at a high level - than someone who didn't. But, player respect is only one element of being a successful head coach, and so many of the other qualities that a successful head coach should have do not not at all necessarily correlate with what it takes to be a successful player (first and foremost being pure athletic ability).

Obviously, how much one could bench or their 40 yard time when they were 25 years old does not make someone a better head coach when they are 50. Organizational skills, IQ for the game, people skills, temperament - lots of other things are much, much more important than those raw physical attributes. To cross sports a bit, if being an NBA player was a pre-requisite for being a coach, pretty much no one in the world under 6' tall could ever be a coach. That basically eliminates about 75% of the world from consideration, and you'd likely lose out on many, many people who would otherwise be fantastic head coaches.

 

[Ed Hillel]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

I caddied for ML Carr once. He had the WORST bag. It was from like the 1950s, large and bulky leather, with a really thin strap that cut off my circulation. Just awful.

 

[Traut]

Patriots fans should know better than anyone that the coach/QB combination are critical to sustained success in the league. Maye has shown he can be the guy. Mayo has not shown he can be the guy. I don't think you take a chance Mayo may be the guy when you have Maye. You go out and find the best damn head coach that you can.

If Mayo were fired today, does any NFL team give him a head coaching job? I don't think so. I think what you look for in a rebuilding phase are signs you are on the right track. I haven't seen anything from Mayo to suggest that is the case.

 

[jtn46]

Can't be changing HCs and OCs every year with a young QB, a lot of franchises are stunting their QBs doing this and it's stupid. Maybe Mayo was the wrong hire but unless he is a bottom 5 HC in the league, which I don't think we'll really know until there is more talent on the roster, the Pats should try really hard to ride it out, it's not like they can get Ben Johnson. Mayo being conservative is something that can be fixed, I hope this is being pointed out to him and he's willing to adjust. As Maye builds trust with Mayo perhaps Maye gets more cracks to convert 4th downs and can take more shots down the field. The direct snap to Rhamondre was actually pretty encouraging even if a penalty screwed it up, I like that Mayo and AVP aren't just being bullheaded with their red zone playcalling.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

The value of prior playing experience as a coach comes up a lot, and I think it's an interesting question. Certainly, the players are very likely to have more respect for someone who played professionally, and especially someone who played professionally at a high level - than someone who didn't. But, player respect is only one element of being a successful head coach, and so many of the other qualities that a successful head coach should have do not not at all necessarily correlate with what it takes to be a successful player (first and foremost being pure athletic ability).

Obviously, how much one could bench or their 40 yard time when they were 25 years old does not make someone a better head coach when they are 50. Organizational skills, IQ for the game, people skills, temperament - lots of other things are much, much more important than those raw physical attributes. To cross sports a bit, if being an NBA player was a pre-requisite for being a coach, pretty much no one in the world under 6' tall could ever be a coach. That basically eliminates about 75% of the world from consideration, and you'd likely lose out on many, many people who would otherwise be fantastic head coaches.

My broad sense is that the relative value of prior playing experience (at least at the NFL level) has decreased over time as the job has come to involve so many other responsibilities and skills. Many of the most successful post-merger head coaches were former players (Landry, Knoll, Shula, Flores), although not all (Lombardi). But if you look at the most successful coaches since the 1980s, its a lot of guys who never played in the NFL - Bill Belichick, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells (was briefly on a roster but never actually got into a game), Andy Reid, Mike Shanahan, George Seifert, Tom Coughlin, etc.

 

[JimD]

The unwillingness to take selective risks when there is an opportunity to steal a win is what I don't get about Mayo's HC tenure.

I will freely admit that I have only the broadest outlines of what a modern NFL head coach does. I'm not qualified to judge whether a 'CEO' style coach is a better bet now than the traditional path of a coach who has worked their way up the college and pro ranks and apprenticed as a coordinator before ascending to the big chair. It's possible that Mayo is honing his skills and making his mistakes now while the stakes are low while building something real and sustainable behind the scenes that will pay off as more talented players are brought in and brighter coaching minds are enticed to join the organization. Maybe this is all going in the right direction and us fans can't see it yet.

Even if that is the case, though, what is the harm in rolling the dice right now and trying a few things? Let Maye and other potential building blocks experience a taste of winning like that. Start developing a new 'Patriot way' and a belief that this team is never out of a game. Instead, it feels like he is telling his team that he doesn't trust them, or that this group of guys just isn't worth the bother. Telling the media that he'd coach differently if he had different players is a terrible message to send to the locker room (even if he didn't mean it that way). Does Mayo actually believe that he'd be a championship-caliber coach right now if he had a better roster?

I know that Mayo isn't going anywhere because of Robert Kraft's ego, but I'd feel a lot better about that if we'd start to see some growth in situational awareness and playcalling from him as this season winds down.

He's freaking Hagrid. He shoots his mouth off and then says "I should not have said that."

Almost did a spit take with my coffee reading this!

 

[jk333]

Can't be changing HCs and OCs every year with a young QB, a lot of franchises are stunting their QBs doing this and it's stupid. Maybe Mayo was the wrong hire but unless he is a bottom 5 HC in the league, which I don't think we'll really know until there is more talent on the roster, the Pats should try really hard to ride it out, it's not like they can get Ben Johnson. Mayo being conservative is something that can be fixed, I hope this is being pointed out to him and he's willing to adjust.

With their cap space, a top pick, and Maye they should have sufficient talent to evaluate Mayo next year. I think we agree but they should move on from Mayo after next season if things don’t go well. (Call it 8 wins in the first 16 weeks)

 

[jtn46]

With their cap space, a top pick, and Maye they should have sufficient talent to evaluate Mayo next year. I think we agree but they should move on from Mayo after next season if things don’t go well.

Mostly yes, they had cap space this year and no one would take their money. Point being, though, while Mayo may be a part of why this team is bad, the team has very little talent and would likely be bad with every HC in the NFL (though, some of them would themselves help lure talent to New England). Maybe Mayo isn't Dan Campbell but that's pretty clearly what they are thinking with him.

Another point is, firing Mayo a year or less than a year after firing Belichick just means this is a crappy HC job that has no job security with a bad roster. Hot coordinators aren't touching this job, probably we are looking at rehashes, best case is probably Vrabel, but Vrabel is also conservative on offense and there must be something going on that a lousy Titans team fired him just to be even more lousy.

 

[slamminsammya]

Cross-posting here, but this alone makes Mayo not the person for the job. He is taking the objectively wrong approach to his decision-making. We’re past the “Moneyball” release date in the NFL for aggression vs. traditional conservatism, it’s all out of the bag. The philosophy Mayo adheres to is outdated (especially with all the offense-favored rule changes), and anyone who abides by it should, and eventually will, go the way of the Dodo:
View: https://twitter.com/dougkyed/status/1863596488724758731?s=46

Maybe its a problem with my reading comprehension but I have absolutely no idea what point he is trying to make here. Its a word salad. Is he defending being conservative? Is he not? I really cannot tell.

 

[cshea]

Maybe its a problem with my reading comprehension but I have absolutely no idea what point he is trying to make here. Its a word salad. Is he defending being conservative? Is he not? I really cannot tell.

He's saying he's been conservative with game managemnt decisions because he'd rather be in a close game than get blown out.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

He's saying he's been conservative with game managemnt decisions because he'd rather be in a close game than get blown out.

Is he aware that close losses count the same as blowout losses?

 

[Cellar-Door]

Maybe its a problem with my reading comprehension but I have absolutely no idea what point he is trying to make here. Its a word salad. Is he defending being conservative? Is he not? I really cannot tell.

So there is a lot of word salad (it also isn't actually a question), but basically his argument is that he wants to control the game and be close at the end over getting blown out.....
It also is indicative of a guy who does not understand the risk/reward analysis being done in win probability or analytics. He thinks that taking the conservative approach almost always makes it more likely you are in games versus blown out. But actually being hyper-conservative means you are just as likely to get blown out but less likely to win games at all because you are eliminating the kind of small advantages that win you games.

It's a very clear case of not coaching to win, but rather coaching to make it look close.

 

[cshea]

I think there's 2 things he's aiming for:

• Developmentally, he'd rather they play tight games for 60 minutes than be down 24-0 and be going through the motions in the 2nd half.
• He wants them to *learn* how to win close games.

The problem is his decision making is part of "learning" to win close games. Also, winning close games is not sustainable in the NFL. Too much variance.

 

[Rico Guapo]

So there is a lot of word salad (it also isn't actually a question), but basically his argument is that he wants to control the game and be close at the end over getting blown out.....
It also is indicative of a guy who does not understand the risk/reward analysis being done in win probability or analytics. He thinks that taking the conservative approach almost always makes it more likely you are in games versus blown out. But actually being hyper-conservative means you are just as likely to get blown out but less likely to win games at all because you are eliminating the kind of small advantages that win you games.

It's a very clear case of not coaching to win, but rather coaching to make it look close.

I don't disagree with this, but have there been studies on bad teams specifically? Probably wanders into SSS to evaluate it like that but with this roster being as shit as it is I can see why Mayo goes conservative and maybe why there is justification buried in the data somewhere. Agree a loss is a loss though, might as well fucking send it if you think you're going to lose anyway, at least you give yourself a chance of a positive high variance outcome.

 

[Van Everyman]

I think there's 2 things he's aiming for:

• Developmentally, he'd rather they play tight games for 60 minutes than be down 24-0 and be going through the motions in the 2nd half.
• He wants them to *learn* how to win close games.

The problem is his decision making is part of "learning" to win close games. Also, winning close games is not sustainable in the NFL. Too much variance.

I think this is generally right.

I keep hearing “What do the Patriots have to lose?” on almost every drive where they punt or kick with less than 10 yards to gain unless they are deep in their own zone. I believe it was this week when people were clamoring for them to go for it in the first quarter on their own 35. Doing that over and over might work from time to time but it is more likely to, yeah, to get you blown out of most games when you don’t have some world beater offense. It’s also more likely to result in Maye becoming putting all of the team’s failures on his shoulders.

I get that they aren’t executing in these late game situations – and that’s on Mayo. And while I agree winning close games isn’t sustainable in the NFL, it’s way better than having every week feel like that Dolphins game (which, oddly, they almost made a game of after Schooler sacked Tua).

Mayo’s conservative decision making is way down the list of things this team needs to work on. While yes “you play to win the game”—and I guess it would’ve been cool for them to go for two against the Titans—we’ve seen a ton of teams improve their record to like 6-11 or 7-10 but basically be stuck in Losertown for years and years.

By contrast this team has a ton of problems but one very big reason to be optimistic. When more guys come here to play with Maye and Mayo still plays it safe, ok I get it. But we’re a long way from that.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I'm sorta assuming this option is off the table for a bunch of obvious reasons, but if Mayo could talk Steve Belichick into coming back from Washington that might help a lot with the defensive side of the ball.

There may be too much bad blood there, but if enough axes could be buried he would be an obvious hire for an 'Assistant Head Coach' position who took over the defensive side of the ball. If making Steve the obvious next-in-line for HC helps smooth things over with Bill-- and the second is willing to help the first with game-planning and scouting and whatnot-- so much the better.

 

[jsinger121]

I'm sorta assuming this option is off the table for a bunch of obvious reasons, but if Mayo could talk Steve Belichick into coming back from Washington that might help a lot with the defensive side of the ball.

There may be too much bad blood there, but if enough axes could be buried he would be an obvious hire for an 'Assistant Head Coach' position who took over the defensive side of the ball. If making Steve the obvious next-in-line for HC helps smooth things over with Bill-- and the second is willing to help the first with game-planning and scouting and whatnot-- so much the better.

I would never do this if I was Steve. Mayo looks like a dead man walking and is likely a lame duck head coach next season if there isn't a considerable turnaround.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I would never do this if I was Steve. Mayo looks like a dead man walking and is likely a lame duck head coach next season if there isn't a considerable turnaround.

Well, if you're coming on the understanding that you're the heir apparent to the throne than any perception that Mayo is on shaky ground could be a feature, not a bug.

Steve has gone from a playcalling positional coach to a college DC role for a program that mostly plays teams from the Mountain West conference. And he's gotten rave reviews as a college DC. So he's not going to have a problem getting a DC role for a college program in the future. At the same time, the title of NFL DC or Assistant HC would be a big step up for him, career wise. If it goes well, he's going to have plenty of future opportunities. And if Mayo and staff are shown the door at the end of the year he can always get another college DC role, at the least.

It's not like he'd be missing out on some big break if he's not coaching for Washington next year.

 

[Pandemonium67]

UW has played Oregon, Penn State and Indiana this year as part of their Big 10 schedule. Maybe you're thinking of Wazoo.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

UW has played Oregon, Penn State and Indiana this year as part of their Big 10 schedule. Maybe you're thinking of Wazoo.

Brain fart. What you said.

Although my family members who are alumn always spell it Wazzu in emails or texts.

Is there anything an official spelling (for a sound that is supposed to be an approximation of "WSU")?

 

[Jinhocho]

Well, if you're coming on the understanding that you're the heir apparent to the throne than any perception that Mayo is on shaky ground could be a feature, not a bug.

Steve has gone from a playcalling positional coach to a college DC role for a program that mostly plays teams from the Mountain West conference. And he's gotten rave reviews as a college DC. So he's not going to have a problem getting a DC role for a college program in the future. At the same time, the title of NFL DC or Assistant HC would be a big step up for him, career wise. If it goes well, he's going to have plenty of future opportunities. And if Mayo and staff are shown the door at the end of the year he can always get another college DC role, at the least.

It's not like he'd be missing out on some big break if he's not coaching for Washington next year.

I obviously cannot speak for Steve B as I do not know him at all, but a few things that might factor in:

1) The Kraft family did his dad pretty damn dirty and badmouthed him during his time here, one the way out, after he left, and even had a documentary that most perceive as doubling down on all of that.

2) Steve had a damn big role on the defense, arguably bigger than Mayo while he was here. He called the plays, which is something Mayo never did. All the stuff about Mayo setting the strategy and Steve handling the details rings a little hollow to me at this point. Mayo does not seem great at that and Bill was always the guy in charge of the team, so in hindsight it might be looked at that Mayo had a smaller role than we realized and/or that Bill saw him at least partially as Kraft's guy on the staff.

3) Steve has a good gig in Washington. He is coaching with folks he knows and is comfortable with. He gets to run the defense entirely on his own now. If you look at his coaching resume:

Washington
2024-present: Defensive Coordinator

New England Patriots
2022-23: Linebackers
2020-21: Outside Linebackers
2019: Defensive Backs
2016-18: Safeties
2012-15: Defensive Assistant

He has coached everywhere on D except as the line, has won multiple super bowls on staff, has called plays for some great defenses, and now gets out of the family shadow on his own. I am pretty certain he could come back to the NFL as a DC if he wanted and, honestly, why be in NE that was so hostile to his dad at the end. As others said, why work for Mayo who gives off dead man walking vibes. Further, if he came in and fixed the defense it would make Mayo look worse rather than better in some respects. He also gets to work with Fisch, who has held a ton of roles in the NFL and college. It is also far removed from New England. I guess money and title could be motivators, but it would seem like kind of a 180 given that they supposedly wanted him to stay. Vinnie Sunseri who was also with the Pats is there as well. Also Pete Carrolls kid, Jon Lynch's kid, and Jack Del Rio's kid are all on staff there.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I obviously cannot speak for Steve B as I do not know him at all, but a few things that might factor in:

Yes

I'm sorta assuming this option is off the table for a bunch of obvious reasons, but...

 

[Pandemonium67]

...though my family members who are alumn always spell it Wazzu in emails or texts...

Yeah, I think that's right. On the other hand, "wazoo" is a synonym for dick, so that fits from a Husky point of view.

 

[Van Everyman]

"wazoo" is a synonym for dick

“Up the wazoo” means “up the dick?”

 

[Al Zarilla]

I think Mayo is the ML Carr of Patriots coaches.

At least ML Carr was a great Celtics booster, like a Tommy Heinsohn or a Cornbread Maxwell. Mayo seems like a …zero.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

I caddied for ML Carr once. He had the WORST bag. It was from like the 1950s, large and bulky leather, with a really thin strap that cut off my circulation. Just awful.

Yeah, but I bet his towel was world-class.

 

[Justthetippett]

Yeah, I think that's right. On the other hand, "wazoo" is a synonym for dick, so that fits from a Husky point of view.

In what dark corner of the American experiment is this the case?

 

[Pandemonium67]

C'mon, who here hasn't gotten dick and ass mixed up?

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

C'mon, who here hasn't gotten dick and ass mixed up?

Lock the thread. It's all been said. We're done here.

 

[chonce1]

GM's are normally given at least a couple of seasons to rebuild a roster. Often longer.

As to your final sentence, the reason was obvious in my post. Belichick's thoughts on Maye were not all that unusual - most draft pundits thought Maye had the tools and skills but was young and raw and was going to need some NFL seasoning to work on the various flaws in his game/mechanics. The general consensus was that Maye could end up starting a smattering of games by the end of the season, but fans would need to wait until 2025 for Maye to become a true full-time starting QB. Maye has beaten those consensus estimates already. Maybe it's all due to Maye being an excellent student of the game and learning by practicing and watching. Or perhaps the coaching staff had something to do with Maye's development as well.

I mean who cares what they're normally given. That's really not relevant here. Are wolf and mayo the right people for this job better than any alternative?

That's the only question that matters. People talk about whether or not it's fair or not to judge them with such a limited sample size but fairness is not the principle that matters. You have this excellent young quarterback and 100 million in cap space. You have a head coach with so little respect and experience around the league that you're not going to be able to attract good coordinators, because they are understandably going to feel more qualified for the job than Mayo.

Robert Kraft, despite embarrassing health himself a little bit these last few years, it still considered one of the best owners and he has an endless checkbook. He can bring in anybody he wants to be the GM if he's willing to pay above market rate. Why don't they bring in a real GM not someone that drafted Polk and Baker?! And let that person choose their own head coach.


It's not particularly fair that Mayo gets judged on a limited sample size but that's not really what matters. He never should have been given a job in the first place, when they promised him the promotion years ago it was under the impression that belichick would probably last a couple more years and get the record.

It's just so obvious from his poor decision making and not knowing which way the wind was blowing in Tennessee, ridiculous answers to media questions He's just not ready to be a head coach.


And even if you think he can get ready, you can't plausibly argue that he's the best person for the job? Better than Ben Johnson? Vrabel? Flores? I would rather any of those three.

People say fine bring in some more experienced coordinators. They're not going to want to play for him. For starters he's one of the lowest paid head coaches in the league so that will artificially suppress their salary and secondly there any coordinator worth his salt is going to feel more qualified to be the head coach than Mayo.


So yeah maybe it's not fair but the question remain: is mayo (and for that matter wolf) the best possible people for these jobs?

Even the biggest Mayo supporters would admit that he's not the ideal person for this job. They're just kind of hoping he finds his way and think he deserves a chance. But as Snoop said, deserve ain't got nothing to do with it.

 

[chonce1]

I think if you keep Mayo, you have to force him to fire/demote Covington, the offense looks like a competent unit that is being killed by the lack of O-line talent, the defense looks like a team underperforming their talent, and one that consistently lack answers.

The problem is why would it coveted defensive coordinator want to play under Mayo? If we want someone that's coveted he's going to demand a high salary and mayo is among the lowest paid head coaches so you can't exactly pay the coordinator too much. But beyond that any good defensive coordinator worth their salt is not going to want to answer to Mayo since they're going to rightfully think they're more qualified for the gig.

As long as Mayo is the head coach your option at coordinator is going to be artificially nerfed. Just bringing somebody with some actual experience.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

The problem is why would it coveted defensive coordinator want to play under Mayo? If we want someone that's coveted he's going to demand a high salary and mayo is among the lowest paid head coaches so you can't exactly pay the coordinator too much. But beyond that any good defensive coordinator worth their salt is not going to want to answer to Mayo since they're going to rightfully think they're more qualified for the gig.

As long as Mayo is the head coach your option at coordinator is going to be artificially nerfed. Just bringing somebody with some actual experience.

It’s not unheard of to pair a young inexperienced head coach with a long time veteran coordinator

McVey with Phillips, O’Connell with Donatell, LaFleur with Pettine, etc

usually it’s on the opposite side of the ball from where the HC came from.

However, it raises the question just what Mayo is doing if he defers to AVP on offense and the defense is wildly underperforming. What, exactly, is he coaching?

Usually very young HC excel at one side of the ball. The Pats floundering on Mayo’s strong side is not surprising since he was just a LB coach but it’s disappointing.