Hip Hop - The Isaiah Injury Thread

HomeRunBaker

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From Brad's mouth 4 days ago.......

“He has his follow-up appointment here in a couple of weeks to determine next course of action. And nothing’s determined after that,” said Stevens. “He hasn’t done a lot, physically, and will be off his feet until that next appointment, or won’t be doing any basketball.”


This smells to me of one of those "second opinions" even if it is by the same doctor once the injury settles down to make a final attempt to avoid surgery. I fully expect surgery at this point with the real question being how much hip surgery and the time off to return physically ready to play NBA basketball affects a 5-9 player who relies almost exclusively on his quickness and change of direction ability. It hasn't escaped my notice that Bradley or Smart's name has not specifically come up as guys Ainge is seeking a market for despite each having large extensions coming due. He can pay one or both if we know the Isaiah we have known will never be seen (or paid) again.

Isaiah loses a step and he's now the 2nd unit scorer we have always wanted. Isaiah loses two steps and he's at the table sitting between Scal and Gorman.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/06/23/isaiah-thomas-feeling-better-but-no-decision-on-potential-hip-surgery/
 

BigSoxFan

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This is going to be a really good opportunity for Fultz to show what he can do.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Well at least he's a contender for the All-Defense team, so that should help.

He did win the 2016-17 community assist award.

I feel bad for IT4. He gave us Cs fans one of the great rooting seasons of all time but he's going to have to come back healthy and prove he hasn't lost a step before anyone gives him a huge extension / raise. And if he has surgery in mid-July, I would guess he would have to miss some games for rehab and get back into playing shape.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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A Marcus Smart who can shoot is the ideal pg for a team that has added Hayward and George. A Marcus Smart who can still only shoot from the corner works okay too if you assume that a bunch of his bad shots are being transferred to much better shooters.
 

HomeRunBaker

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A Marcus Smart who can shoot is the ideal pg for a team that has added Hayward and George. A Marcus Smart who can still only shoot from the corner works okay too if you assume that a bunch of his bad shots are being transferred to much better shooters.
I've been adamant for years that Smart is not a PG on a starting unit due to his limitations in getting to his spot with the ball against quick 1's and is best suited in a combo role where he is matched up with backup 1's and able to play the 2 in a first unit to defend wings which he is better at then defending those quick 1's. Having Smart as the 1 in a lineup with Hayward AND George eliminates the need for a pure 1 just as we didn't need in 2008 for those who recall Rondo's role on that team as dribbling the ball upcourt, initiating the offense through Pierce or KG then hiding in the corner. Smart is very capable of playing the 1 on a team with a couple of strong initiators and iso shot creators against the shot clock such as George and Hayward.

Edit: Trying to keep thread on track to be on Isaiah's injury but alternative lineup options are part of the discussion.
 

JCizzle

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I think it's very convenient and worrisome that this decision is being pushed back until after FA. I think IT will be a big selling point to Hayward, and it probably wouldn't be a good look to have him attending the meeting with definite surgery looming. They publicly claimed that they plan on him being back and ready by training camp, but the fact that a final decision keeps being pushed back doesn't line up.
 

Green Monster

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I am sure there are other examples, but Mike Lowell and Alex Rodriquez both had surgery for torn labrum in their hips. Both were fraction of themselves and lost considerable quickness following surgery. This would seem to be even more devastating for someone 5'-9" in the NBA who makes their living with his quickness.
 

moly99

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The good news is that from the perspective of marginal utility, point guard is the least valuable position in the NBA. We won't find another combo guard as good as IT, but the league is loaded with competent point guards.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I am sure there are other examples, but Mike Lowell and Alex Rodriquez both had surgery for torn labrum in their hips. Both were fraction of themselves and lost considerable quickness following surgery. This would seem to be even more devastating for someone 5'-9" in the NBA who makes their living with his quickness.
This website had an article on hip labrum tears and contained this list of NBA players who had the injury (article published in 2015).

 

cheech13

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That's a scary list. Aldridge came back alright and Henderson and Chandler are still functional players, but that was basically a career ending injury for Flynn, Hill and Webster.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I am sure there are other examples, but Mike Lowell and Alex Rodriquez both had surgery for torn labrum in their hips. Both were fraction of themselves and lost considerable quickness following surgery. This would seem to be even more devastating for someone 5'-9" in the NBA who makes their living with his quickness.
So you're saying there's no chance IT ends up at 3B for the Sox
 

radsoxfan

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IT has an anatomic problem with his hip, without surgery that isn't going away. The symptoms may wax and wane but he's going to get progressive cartilage loss and labral tearing as time goes on. Honestly depending on exactly whats wrong, surgery isn't some magic bullet, he may always be managing this issue.

He may not need surgery now, but I find it hard to believe he is going to be fine for the next 4-5 years if his symptoms are already this bad (requiring him to be out for the entire playoffs at the start of the ECF) right now. Feels like a guy you should pay as an awesome but sometimes unavailable 6th man or just let go in the offseason if someone else feels he is more than that going forward.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Just reported on the summer league broadcast that Stevens said that it is unlikely that Thomas will need surgery.
 

JCizzle

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Just reported on the summer league broadcast that Stevens said that it is unlikely that Thomas will need surgery.
Not definite, but much closer. Get well IT!

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19805042/boston-celtics-coach-brad-stevens-talk-gordon-hayward-says-isaiah-thomas-need-surgery
Added Stevens: "Everybody that I have talked to said it looked unlikely that they would need to [perform surgery]. But I don't want to speak in absolutes. I'm not a doctor, just a coach."
 

ALiveH

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as soon as Hayward signs with boston... "oops we were wrong, Isaiah needs surgery and will be out till the all star break."
 

DJnVa

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He's not getting traded, he's getting signed. So Signer Danny.
 

lovegtm

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I think he will get signed. He isn't gettting the 5 year max though. No chance.
Lowry kind of set the market here imo. He's a much better player overall by RPM (simply because he can play defense), and the fact that he's a few years older is offset by the fact that his game will probably age better.

No point guards outside of Jrue Holiday really cashed in this offseason, which lets Isaiah save face to some degree. I'm guessing that if he plays well after coming back from injury this year, he'll end up signing for about 3 years at 20-25/year.

If he doesn't play well or isn't healthy, the bottom will fall out of his market.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Ed Hillel

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Cousins, George, LeBron, and Westbrook are possibly all going to be on the market with IT. I'd prefer any of them, though I don't think Danny could swing it (I'm already having nightmares of 3 going to LA). Maybe Cousins? I think there's a decent shot he's traded again if the Pelicans aren't contending and he might not get a max because of his issues. I'm not sure Stevens or Ainge want him, though.
 

pjheff

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I'm guessing that if he plays well after coming back from injury this year, he'll end up signing for about 3 years at 20-25/year.
I don't see it. On Thomas' side, he feels like he has been vastly underpaid on his last contract and is coming off of a season in which he averaged nearly 29 points, finished 5th in MVP voting, and was named 2nd team All-NBA. On the Celtics' side, they just traded out of the chance to draft a franchise PG and moved the similarly situated Bradley for financial reasons. Thomas thinks that he's a max guy, and from everything that we have seen this offseason, the front office and coaching staff agree with him.
 

lovegtm

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I don't see it. On Thomas' side, he feels like he has been vastly underpaid on his last contract and is coming off of a season in which he averaged nearly 29 points, finished 5th in MVP voting, and was named 2nd team All-NBA. On the Celtics' side, they just traded out of the chance to draft a franchise PG and moved the similarly situated Bradley for financial reasons. Thomas thinks that he's a max guy, and from everything that we have seen this offseason, the front office and coaching staff agree with him.
Yeah, I guess we'll just have to re-visit this thread a year from now. I'd predict that the total guaranteed money from the Celtics side will be less than $80M.

Bradley isn't very relevant to the discussion, since he's not a ball-handler/shot-creator. The Fultz trade seems to have been based much more on their assessment of Tatum + an extra pick. I don't think either of those moves tell us anything about how the Celtics view Isaiah.

In addition, the rest of the market matters. Lowry thought he was a max guy as well (and might have had a better case), but he took the 3/90 pretty fast when he saw how the market was shaping up.
 

lars10

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Yeah, I guess we'll just have to re-visit this thread a year from now. I'd predict that the total guaranteed money from the Celtics side will be less than $80M.

Bradley isn't very relevant to the discussion, since he's not a ball-handler/shot-creator. The Fultz trade seems to have been based much more on their assessment of Tatum + an extra pick. I don't think either of those moves tell us anything about how the Celtics view Isaiah.

In addition, the rest of the market matters. Lowry thought he was a max guy as well (and might have had a better case), but he took the 3/90 pretty fast when he saw how the market was shaping up.
I think one way you could view how the Celts view IT is that they really have no other real PG on the roster. Avery Bradley is a great player to have on your roster until he becomes too expensive. You don't pay high end money for a defensive oriented 2 guard imo.

Edit: Smart and Rozier are listed as PGs but that seems more in name only rather than true PGs
 

cheech13

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I don't see it. On Thomas' side, he feels like he has been vastly underpaid on his last contract and is coming off of a season in which he averaged nearly 29 points, finished 5th in MVP voting, and was named 2nd team All-NBA. On the Celtics' side, they just traded out of the chance to draft a franchise PG and moved the similarly situated Bradley for financial reasons. Thomas thinks that he's a max guy, and from everything that we have seen this offseason, the front office and coaching staff agree with him.
Just because Thomas thinks he's a max guy doesn't make it so. A year ago Lowry looked to be headed for max money, with George Hill and Jeff Teague in the conversation. Those guys got deals with guaranteed money ranging from $40 to $100 million. The bottom has completely fallen out on the big contracts to non-elite talent and next year will be even tighter with just three to four teams likely to have max money. Maybe one of those teams jumps on Thomas, but its not particularly likely. The market has been set for his caliber of player and that's $20 to $25 million per year at three years, barring any unforeseen changes developing between now and next July.
 
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pjheff

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Bradley isn't very relevant to the discussion, since he's not a ball-handler/shot-creator.
He's relevant in that, like Thomas, he is on the last year of a contract. The difference is that there was a willingness to trade Bradley. The fact that Thomas hasn't been on the block, despite his contract status, suggests that the C's have every intention of keeping him.

The Fultz trade seems to have been based much more on their assessment of Tatum + an extra pick. I don't think either of those moves tell us anything about how the Celtics view Isaiah.
That certainly has been the company line perpetuated in the local media. At the same time, it's hard to imagine that they needed another wing more than another point if they're prepared to let Thomas walk over a few million dollars.

In addition, the rest of the market matters. Lowry thought he was a max guy as well (and might have had a better case), but he took the 3/90 pretty fast when he saw how the market was shaping up.
I thought Lowry got 3/100, and barring injury, I expect Thomas to get a deal in that range at the max that the Celtics can offer. Honest question: is there any real roster benefit (not tax benefit) to paying Thomas anything less before the summer of '20 or '21?
 

cheech13

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I thought Lowry got 3/100, and barring injury, I expect Thomas to get a deal in that range at the max that the Celtics can offer. Honest question: is there any real roster benefit (not tax benefit) to paying Thomas anything less before the summer of '20 or '21?
So is he going to get Lowry money or max money because those are very different things. A max deal for Thomas could be over $200 million depending on where the cap lands and if he makes All-NBA again. That's more than double what Lowry got.
 
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smastroyin

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Smart is definitely a PG on offense. Sure he doesn't really create his own shot, but there were plenty of rotations the last two years where his primary job was bringing the ball up, distributing, and starting the offense. Just because he can defend a bunch of different spots including sometimes in the paint doesn't mean he's not a PG. Regardless, I'm sure someone can dig up the Stevens quote where he talks about bigs, wings, and ball handlers or whatever. So I'm not sure we should read too much into IT being the only small shot creator/distributor on the team.
 

smastroyin

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Thomas is also injured, it would be pretty hard to trade him for fair value until he shows he's back up to speed. I think every GM can see as well as we do that Thomas minus a step of quickness, or being shy about contact, is going to be a much less effective Thomas.

Basically I don't think this off-season tells us too much about Thomas and their intentions that we didn't already know.
 

the moops

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So is he going to get Lowry money or max money because those are very different things. A max deal for Thomas could be over $200 million depending on where the cap lands and if he makes All-NBA again. That's more than double what Lowry got.
Didn't Lowry get the max possible for three years?
 

cheech13

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Didn't Lowry get the max possible for three years?
As a 10+ year veteran Lowry's maximum is 35% of the salary cap plus 8% annual raises. His max salary for for 2017-18 would have been $34,682,550, but he signed for less (around $28.7M). Also, I would't consider a three-year contract to be the "max", even if the starting salary had been similar to max money. A maximum salary contract would imply signing for four of five years, but YMMV.
 

mcpickl

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So is he going to get Lowry money or max money because those are very different things. A max deal for Thomas could be over $200 million depending on where the cap lands and if he makes All-NBA again. That's more than double what Lowry got.
All-NBA wouldn't affect Isaiah, he doesn't qualify for the DPE

He'll be eligible for a max of 30% of the cap next summer.
 

cheech13

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All-NBA wouldn't affect Isaiah, he doesn't qualify for the DPE

He'll be eligible for a max of 30% of the cap next summer.
You're right. Total brainfart. Even at 30% that's $180M+/- on a five-year max deal. I just don't see it. Maybe he gets close to max money but at two or three years only.
 

nighthob

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That certainly has been the company line perpetuated in the local media. At the same time, it's hard to imagine that they needed another wing more than another point if they're prepared to let Thomas walk over a few million dollars.
Given Stevens' demonstrated in game preferences I think his dream PG is 6'5" and strong enough to guard four positions. But they have Thomas for now and they're going to make use of him while they have him.

But he has an arthritic hip, so I'll be stunned if they ink him to a 5 year $180-$190 million deal next summer. It's far more likely that if someone else comes calling with a four year max offer that Boston gratefully works out a sign & trade and then looks around for players to add into the TPE.

I thought Lowry got 3/100, and barring injury, I expect Thomas to get a deal in that range at the max that the Celtics can offer. Honest question: is there any real roster benefit (not tax benefit) to paying Thomas anything less before the summer of '20 or '21?
Lowry got a three year deal for 80% of max salary. If Lil' Zeke were willing to sign that sort of deal I'm sure that Boston would oblige, as they would at least get good performance for the life of the contract. It's years four and five that would be the albatross.
 

pjheff

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So is he going to get Lowry money or max money because those are very different things.
To me, a max deal does not necessitate a full five year commitment. I see Thomas getting 30% of cap which with escalators puts him in the ballpark of Lowry. He gets to say that he makes max, which is important to him, while the C's get flexibility in the summer of '21, which should be important to them. I'd be surprised to see the C's offer, or Thomas accept, less than 30%, and I don't expect that they'll let or make him go to market.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm really not concerned about this situation at all. I think the writing is on the wall that there is no chance in hell that Isaiah is getting a 5 year max deal. Like 0.0001%. Seems like a reasonable compromise is a 3 year max or near-max deal with maybe a 4th year team option. The Lowry deal is a fair deal for both sides. If Isaiah wants more, well, sorry. See you in Brooklyn or wherever.

Marcus Smart is obviously a much different player than Thomas but I wouldn't be surprised to see him re-signed to a more reasonable deal and IT let go. Additionally, we have Crowder and some draft assets that could be used to provide alternative solutions via trade if Ainge wants more of a playmaker at that spot.

There really is no scenario that I can see where giving Isaiah what he wants makes any sense. But this situation is going to work itself out one way or another. If he is hurt this year or regresses, his market collapses. If he repeats last year, he'll probably remain steadfast on a monster deal that Ainge won't touch. With Horford and Hayward signed for 2 more years after this season and the young pups on their way, there is no reason to make a rash decision here.
 

nighthob

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Wonder if an S&T could possibly be in the works next offseason if he wants the max.
If the Lakers can't convince LeBron to rescue them, and can't entice Westbrook and George to sign there (and there's a very good chance that the money OKC can dangle in front of RWB is so vertiginous that he re-ups without regrets) then I think there'd be a good chance that Boston looks for a sign & trade transaction to generate a $30+ million TPE to add talent around Hayward and Horford.
 

RedOctober3829

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If the Lakers can't convince LeBron to rescue them, and can't entice Westbrook and George to sign there (and there's a very good chance that the money OKC can dangle in front of RWB is so vertiginous that he re-ups without regrets) then I think there'd be a good chance that Boston looks for a sign & trade transaction to generate a $30+ million TPE to add talent around Hayward and Horford.
IT to LA and LeBron to Boston. Get it done Theo.
 

MarkBT

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To a certain extant (certain being the admittedly vague, operative term), I see parallels between the forthcoming IT/Celtics negotiations and the Malcolm Butler/Patriots negotiations from NFL FA 2017.

Like Butler, Thomas plays the part of hardworking underdog naturally, appears to be respected in the league, is admired by coaches, teammates, fans, and media alike... yet the pay day he is expecting isn't going to be there.

Butler saw (arguably) inferior players get paid, figured it was his turn in FA 2017, yet never seemed to grasp the fact that he had none of the leverage in the negotiation. After a long game of chicken he signed his tender and will test his fortunes down the road.

I agree with what others have posted: I could foresee the market for IT shrinking/collapsing next offseason with relatively few teams w/ cap space (compared to FA 2016 & 2017) and those with cap space less than excited about offering it up to Thomas. The C's will have much of the leverage and no incentive to budge beyond their offer.

In the end, IT will get a contract he probably never envisioned as the 60th pick, but will not as close to the full max he feels he's earned.
 

Eddie Jurak

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He's relevant in that, like Thomas, he is on the last year of a contract. The difference is that there was a willingness to trade Bradley. The fact that Thomas hasn't been on the block, despite his contract status, suggests that the C's have every intention of keeping him.
Not necessarily. I could still see them drawing a line somewhere and letting him test the waters to see whether he can do better. I'm sure they are very much prepared to give him a huge raise, but I doubt they are committed to giving him the max.