Henry & Bloom booed at Winter Weekend

KingChre

New Member
Jul 31, 2009
130
I think it’s pretty clear that this is the pivotal year to see how Bloom’s plan is working; if the team starts getting contributions from the minors as hoped / expected, the path forward looks a lot more appealing and the endless cycle of short term additions, some hit and some miss, probably ebbs a bit. Will be fun to follow the AA and AAA box scores for sure.
I couldn't agree more. However you feel about Bloom's tenure, it seems indisputable that this season is huge for the development system. I'm optimistic on that front myself. I haven't been this excited to follow the Minor League forums in years. It seems like they are further ahead in developing position players vs pitchers so I'd feel a lot more optimistic if some of their lower minors guys like Perales take big steps forward.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
12,959
The Paris of the 80s
This contributes nothing to the discussion.
I agree it doesn't contribute but it's very reflective of an undercurrent in fan engagement right now that's basically just whining about owners for being rich. No real engagement on roster construction, strategy, etc. Just using sport as a platform to gripe about the rich people who own the teams regardless of the moves the teams make. You see a lot of it over on reddit.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
I'm going to assume for the sake of my insanity that this is a troll post, but whatever.

Bloom took over at the end of 2019. That ear, Brayan Bello had been a 20 year old kid who got lit up in the SAL to the tune of a 5.43 ERA. Since then, he has become one of the most promising young starters to come up through the Sox system, at 23 years old.

Triston Casas was already a top-100 guy, but has continued to develop into what looks like at minimum a solid MLB first baseman, with incredible upside.

I will give you that Mayer fell into his lap, but he made what appeared to be the "right" pick at the time, and he is progressing well through the minors.

He signed Miguel Bleis (January 2021) who is currently being universally praised as a guy who will rocket up prospect lists this season.

They have multiple pitchers on the cusp, who will likely be ready to step in this year when an MLB pitcher inevitably gets injured, a couple of who project to be MLB regulars (or better) at some point.

Tanner Houck was a guy walking everyone in AAA in 2019, and is now regarded in any capacity from mid-rotation starter (again, something this team has not been good at developing during this century), a top shelf reliever, or the centerpiece of a trade for a major contributor.

He stole Whitlock, who you mention, so you know this.

And more, and more, and more.

He isn't perfect, but to say they have "lost the ability to draft an develop" makes me wonder if you are watching a different sport than me.
Agree with your take. I’d add that Bloom has avoided trading Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson so far. He also took Mayer when some thought he should take Rocker, so he actually could have screwed that up. (For reference: https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/2021-draft.31540/page-15 )
 

Martin and Woods

New Member
Dec 8, 2017
81
I must admit that I'm optimistic about this year and the next few. I'm always in can't-wait-for-games-to-start mode in mid-January, but, holy shite, amid all the endless anti- and pro-Bloom back and forth, I don't know that I've ever looked forward so much to Truck Day (less than two weeks!) and Pitchers and Catchers (three and a half weeks!), oy.

As you were.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,402
They offered him almost $200 million. What about that screams, "Not actually a top priority!"

Accusing people of lying without proof is pretty spectacular.

They wanted him back, on a reasonable deal. Bogaerts was always going to test free agency unless the Sox did something really stupid. They held the line and let San Diego do something really stupid instead.

If their goal is to not pay anyone $25M+ into their 40's so that they can actually field a team of people who aren't eligible for AARP, then it seems like there are a lot of people who are going to be disappointed. And those people should probably not quit their day jobs to work in a professional sports front office.

As for the booing, I'm glad I wasn't one of the fans who paid a ton of money to have a good time only to probably spend the entire weekend within earshot of these incessant trolls.
Yes, reasonable deal -- I mentioned the caveats, fine print, or whatever you want to call it. The history of MLB players reaching free agency yet ending up re-signing with their team is quite limited. It's more common in the NFL, with Hightower and the Patriots a recent example. The optics of making an ~$200 million offer seemingly at the point of a gun doesn't play well with the public [Yes, we know there are 2 parties to a negotiation.] . The team actually probably gained some cover from the outrageous offer from San Diego, though the perception of losing out to a smaller-market team might counter that some. Personally, I easily imagined a future without Bogaerts. If you want to dig in the archives here, some years back I raised how keeping both Bogaerts and Devers long term was problematic since it involved having two marginal defenders on the same side of the infield.

I doubt anyone is advocating signing players into their 40's. If you stick to some disciplined-valuation approach in the stock market (a la Benjamin Graham), you minimize your chances of overpaying for a stock. Sitting in cash means you might only lose some value from erosion due to inflation. If you stick to some disciplined-valuation approach for signing players, you minimize your chances of overpaying for players. The difference is not playing in the talent market (as it exists) might mean you lose many games and write off seasons of being a viable competitive outfit. Bloom's got his work cut out for him, and his bosses have demonstrated big pendulum swings in mindset in the past.
 

Traut

lost his degree
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
12,750
My Desk
There's also a difference between the following things:

1. The wealth of an owner;
2. The legal requirement to return profit to shareholders;
3. The business valuation; and
4. Yearly profit/loss.

If you have a wealthy owner who just doesn't care and wants to build a winner and is willing to sacrifice their fortunes to do so then great. But people don't get to be billionaires that way. More likely when they are spending money like that they are looking to juice the valuation of their business. They may want short term tax losses and long term gains. There are a host of reasons they may want to juice the valuation of their franchise - they could sell it - or leverage it to buy other things.

The team separately needs to at least turn a profit. Almost all teams have multiple partners/investors. If a team doesn't turn a profit then that money has to come in from either loans or new investment to cover the expense.

Henry and group have probably concluded they have juiced the Red Sox franchise value as much as they possibly can. So say if they spent 500 million this offseason and won the World Series it probably doesn't move the needle that much on valuation. I have no idea but I'm sure John Henry does.

The need to be cash positive is the same for pretty much every team season to season. So Henry can be very rich and the constraints imposed by the luxury tax are both very real, separate, and somewhat related things.
 
Last edited:

geoflin

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2004
709
Melrose MA
I think they've really lost the ability to draft and develop well with Bloom. I don't think Bloom's moves since taking the job really show that he has an eye for talent outside of Whitlock. I don't see it, and the constant narrative of fans citing they don't see what the plan is largely is because Blooms moves have been questionable at best. I think Bloom is in over his head and is not the right guy.
The development aspect remains to be seen, but following are where the players drafted, signed under international rules, or traded for under Bloom now stand on the Red Sox prospect list according to MLB:

1. Marcelo Mayer drafted 2021
4. Nick Yorke drafted 2020
8. Mikey Romero drafted 2022
9. Blaze Jordan drafted 2020
10. Roman Anthony drafted 2022
16. Cutter Coffey drafted 2022
18. Nathan Hickey drafted 2021
20. Niko Kavadas drafted 2021
23. Brook Bannon drafted 2022
26. Elmer Rodriguez-Cruz drafted 2021

Prospects traded for include
17. Enmanuel Valdez
19. Christian Koss
21. Wilyer Abreu
22. Alex Binelas
24. Franklin German
29. David Hamilton

International signings include
5. Miguel Bleis signed 2021
28. Luis Ravelo signed 2021
30. Freili Encarnacion signed 2022

This is 19 out of the top 30 current prospects.
MLB ranked the Red Sox farm system #25 in 2020, #11 in 2022
Again, development of these players remains to be seen but the track record of Bloom replenishing the farm system appears to be pretty good.
 
Last edited:

Knumba 9

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
5
That's an understatement. Here's some video evidence of the reception that Bloom received during his time with the mic:
View: https://twitter.com/Kupsey17/status/1616591200374640640?s=20&t=hWt37fNKSEzsC8_KJl5kpA


For those who don't want to watch the entire clip, following are some excerpts:

Bloom opens with: "Last time I was sitting up here was 3 years ago...there wasn't a whole heck of a lot coming...so, we had 2 choices...we could drive right off that cliff...and we'd end up rebuilding for half a decade. That's not acceptable. That's not acceptable to you guys. That can't happen in Boston..."

At around the 3:00 mark of the video, he states: "We took all the resources and we added Kike Hernandez. We added Hunter Renfroe. We added Adam Ottavino. We added Garret Richards. We built that team the right way."

In the article in Archer's post, Tomase sums it up: "Simply put, the fans are not having this offseason, not one bit. They booed Henry when he walked onto the stage. They booed chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom when he tried to explain how much better off the team is now than three years ago. They booed the response to a question about the cost of attending a game. They booed and booed and booed...

"If the Red Sox didn't realize the world of hurt they were in with their fans before, it's clear now. The people have spoken. You can't subtract superstars and sit out huge chunks of free agency and sign a bunch of veterans to one-year contracts and expect the fans that pay some of the highest ticket prices in all of professional sports to bounce on their haunches awaiting a treat.
You try to sell that flimflam to Red Sox fans, and they'll bare their canines. On Friday night, the growls turned to howls, and the pack was hangry...

"[Bloom's] much-maligned "it will be awesome!" monologue at the Devers signing didn't come off to me as insincere spin -- which is how some heard it -- so much as profound naivete. I believe Bloom believes what he's selling. It's just tough to share his vision...

"Henry looked taken aback when he said, "it's expensive to have baseball players," and fans responded with lusty boos.

"It was the perfect evening for a franchise riven by dysfunction. The Red Sox have spent all winter in a bubble of their own making, insisting that everything is fine. If they expected a friendly audience on Friday, they encountered a revolt."

Sounds like a good time was had by all.:eek:
Thanks for posting that.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,493
Scituate, MA
They offered him almost $200 million. What about that screams, "Not actually a top priority!"

Accusing people of lying without proof is pretty spectacular.

They wanted him back, on a reasonable deal. Bogaerts was always going to test free agency unless the Sox did something really stupid. They held the line and let San Diego do something really stupid instead.

If their goal is to not pay anyone $25M+ into their 40's so that they can actually field a team of people who aren't eligible for AARP, then it seems like there are a lot of people who are going to be disappointed. And those people should probably not quit their day jobs to work in a professional sports front office.

As for the booing, I'm glad I wasn't one of the fans who paid a ton of money to have a good time only to probably spend the entire weekend within earshot of these incessant trolls.
Wasn't the report from Speier that their final over was 6/$160?
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,493
Scituate, MA
Their strategy this offseason has been relatively clear. They needed to reset the luxury tax. They have done this. They have added pieces and some depth to this roster that wasn't present last year. They locked up Devers long term. And if the pitching staff takes a step forward this team could compete for a wild card.
I refuse to believe they couldn't have reset the luxury tax last year at the trade deadline. That's a complete failure.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,493
Scituate, MA
That's when they were what, 3 or 4 games out of the last WC? Tough time to look like you are throwing in the towel
Why trade your starting catcher then? They did half in/half out and accomplished neither. They were not a playoff caliber team and should have used that as an opportunity to reset or make multiple trades that indicated a push for the playoffs. They did neither, they missed the playoffs and didn't reset the luxury tax. That's a complete failure.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,105
Why trade your starting catcher then? They did half in/half out and accomplished neither. They were not a playoff caliber team and should have used that as an opportunity to reset or make multiple trades that indicated a push for the playoffs. They did neither, they missed the playoffs and didn't reset the luxury tax. That's a complete failure.
They thought well enough of Reese McGuire that they did not think trading Vazquez would hurt the team's playoff chances. And whether is was lightning-in-a-bottle-luck or solid scouting, they were right -- McGuire hit 337/377/500 in 108 PA with very good defense. They improved the team in the short term, got 3.5 years of an interesting player at small money, and a couple of lottery ticket prospects from Houston. That's why they traded Christian Vazquez (and Jake Dikeman, a reliever who everyone hated).
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,493
Scituate, MA
They thought well enough of Reese McGuire that they did not think trading Vazquez would hurt the team's playoff chances. And whether is was lightning-in-a-bottle-luck or solid scouting, they were right -- McGuire hit 337/377/500 in 108 PA with very good defense. They improved the team in the short term, got 3.5 years of an interesting player at small money, and a couple of lottery ticket prospects from Houston. That's why they traded Christian Vazquez (and Jake Dikeman, a reliever who everyone hated).
In doing so they essentially stood pat though. If they concluded that McGuire was the catcher of the future (as they clearly have), so be it. But they otherwise stood still. They didn't get below the luxury tax and they didn't push for a playoff spot. How can that be perceived as anything other than a failure? It's not like they were 50 mil above the cap, this was mismanagement and a failure.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,308
In doing so they essentially stood pat though. If they concluded that McGuire was the catcher of the future (as they clearly have), so be it. But they otherwise stood still. They didn't get below the luxury tax and they didn't push for a playoff spot. How can that be perceived as anything other than a failure? It's not like they were 50 mil above the cap, this was mismanagement and a failure.
They also upgraded 2 positions that had been pretty big negatives all year without giving up anything
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,743
Also they got rid of their 2023 commitment to Diekman, addition by subtraction.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,105
In doing so they essentially stood pat though. If they concluded that McGuire was the catcher of the future (as they clearly have), so be it. But they otherwise stood still. They didn't get below the luxury tax and they didn't push for a playoff spot. How can that be perceived as anything other than a failure? It's not like they were 50 mil above the cap, this was mismanagement and a failure.
The Sox were in a tough spot. Enough of a chance at the playoffs where they wanted to try but not so good where the wanted to go all in. 4th and 10 from the 43, if you will. The modest benefits of getting under the tax were not worth sacrificing a 33% shot at the playoffs. But a 33% shot at the playoffs was not enough to warrant selling pieces of the future. So they sold a guy they didn't think was that valuable in the short term (Vazquez) and brought in guys (Hosmer, Pham) that cost little to nothing in the long term.

As I've mentioned before, I do think there is a world where they would have become sellers, but the market just wasn't there. The Cubs were 41-60 and did not trade Willson Contreras, despite putting him on the market. The Giants were 51-52 and did not trade Carlos Rodon, despite putting him on the market. What does that tell you? Rentals of FA-to-be simply weren't brining back much value.
 

jbupstate

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2022
601
New York, USA
Why trade your starting catcher then? They did half in/half out and accomplished neither. They were not a playoff caliber team and should have used that as an opportunity to reset or make multiple trades that indicated a push for the playoffs. They did neither, they missed the playoffs and didn't reset the luxury tax. That's a complete failure.
That’s nonsense. One week in to July they were on a 90 win pace. They were hit hard by injuries but were still within reach of the last WC. They also has Sale, possibly Paxton and a healthy Story coming back. Of course they were a potential playoff team. They traded less than a half season of soon to be free agent Vázquez for two prospects. And acquired a guy to replace him that performed at an even level, is cheap and has potential to improve.

You could also believe selling everything for anything - alienates an already on edge Xander.
 

Green Monster

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,277
CT
That’s nonsense. One week in to July they were on a 90 win pace. They were hit hard by injuries but were still within reach of the last WC. They also has Sale, possibly Paxton and a healthy Story coming back. Of course they were a potential playoff team. They traded less than a half season of soon to be free agent Vázquez for two prospects. And acquired a guy to replace him that performed at an even level, is cheap and has potential to improve.

You could also believe selling everything for anything - alienates an already on edge Xander.
What they did alientated Xander....he was so pissed he didn't play for 2 days.
 

TubeSoxs

New Member
Dec 16, 2022
32
The development aspect remains to be seen, but following are where the players drafted, signed under international rules, or traded for under Bloom now stand on the Red Sox prospect list according to MLB:

1. Marcelo Mayer drafted 2021
4. Nick Yorke drafted 2020
8. Mikey Romero drafted 2022
9. Blaze Jordan drafted 2020
10. Roman Anthony drafted 2022
16. Cutter Coffey drafted 2022
18. Nathan Hickey drafted 2021
20. Niko Kavadas drafted 2021
23. Brook Bannon drafted 2022
26. Elmer Rodriguez-Cruz drafted 2021

Prospects traded for include
17. Enmanuel Valdez
19. Christian Koss
21. Wilyer Abreu
22. Alex Binelas
24. Franklin German
29. David Hamilton

International signings include
5. Miguel Bleis signed 2021
28. Luis Ravelo signed 2021
30. Freili Encarnacion signed 2022

This is 19 out of the top 30 current prospects.
MLB ranked the Red Sox farm system #25 in 2020, #11 in 2022
Again, development of these players remains to be seen but the track record of Bloom replenishing the farm system appears to be pretty good.
Do you have a link for that because the last Mlb.com ranking I saw had them 17th, which is about where most other sources have them. Also lets not forget Bloom also traded away/let go for nothing some prospects also. Groome was ranked higher than any prospect he has brought in with a trade, which doesnt look so great now that he just released Hosmer. Also the rule 5 guys he let walk to protect guys like Braiser. Im just not that impressed with how Bloom has shaped the farm. Mayer fell into his lap and outside Jordan it seemed like he reached on a few draft picks, who in mosttook a step back this season.
 

Trlicek's Whip

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 8, 2009
5,607
New York City
Henry and group have probably concluded they have juiced the Red Sox franchise value as much as they possibly can.
This reminds me of when Henry first acquired the team, and they decided to remain in Fenway Park and not blow it up and build a newer, bigger stadium - which would have been a more predictable outcome with regards to making moves to maximize franchise value - but instead work with what they had to add seats and improvements to the fan experience.

He's nothing if not consistent with wringing as much value as he possibly can from the Sox, while also balancing that with what would work for the fanbase (something he absolutely doesn't have to do as an owner).
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,947
Fangraphs has the best overall farm rankings as they don’t limit themselves to 30 per team, they rank as many (or as few) guys as they feel are deserving. They have BOS at 9th although Casas should graduate soon after the season begins.

https://www.fangraphs.com/prospects/the-board/2022-in-season-prospect-list/farm-ranking?sort=-1,1&type=100&filter=&pos=&team=
How up to date are these - they have Seabold #7, Ward #15, Song #18, and Wallace #23. They’ve even got Hernandez in the top 10, and he was DFA’d and not claimed, recently. Suggests the value of prospects after the top few on a team could be pretty volatile, right?
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,743
How up to date are these - they have Seabold #7, Ward #15, Song #18, and Wallace #23. They’ve even got Hernandez in the top 10, and he was DFA’d and not claimed, recently. Suggests the value of prospects after the top few on a team could be pretty volatile, right?
They're in the midst of doing the team by team lists now gradually, so they won't rerank the systems until all 30 of those are done. I actually think they might be updating the overall number I linked to but not the list you clicked through to, but not sure.
 

geoflin

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2004
709
Melrose MA
How up to date are these - they have Seabold #7, Ward #15, Song #18, and Wallace #23. They’ve even got Hernandez in the top 10, and he was DFA’d and not claimed, recently. Suggests the value of prospects after the top few on a team could be pretty volatile, right?
Interesting. Although the MLB team by team rankings are dated 8/22/22 there is no date for the individual rankings which do not include any of the players you mentioned in the top 30.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,308
Do you have a link for that because the last Mlb.com ranking I saw had them 17th, which is about where most other sources have them. Also lets not forget Bloom also traded away/let go for nothing some prospects also. Groome was ranked higher than any prospect he has brought in with a trade, which doesnt look so great now that he just released Hosmer. Also the rule 5 guys he let walk to protect guys like Braiser. Im just not that impressed with how Bloom has shaped the farm. Mayer fell into his lap and outside Jordan it seemed like he reached on a few draft picks, who in mosttook a step back this season.
Groome was also ranked far lower than guys that they DFAed because of the roster crunch, he was never going to be with the Sox anyway.
 

Green Monster

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,277
CT
And you probably believe the Plawecki DFA also was instrumental in the downward spiral.
Actually, Plawecki was awful. Only issue with him being DFA'd was ...what took so long. As far as Xander's view of the trade deadline see below.....

https://clutchpoints.com/red-sox-news-xander-bogaerts-fiery-response-to-christian-vazquez-trade-should-worry-boston-fans
.....Bogaerts questioned the moves the Red Sox made at the deadline, indicating that he noticed there were some key pieces leaving the team, including Vazquez, while there were “none” coming
View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10044205-red-sox-ss-xander-bogaerts-expresses-skepticism-over-christian-vazquez-trade#:~:text=Boston%20Red%20Sox%20shortstop%20Xander,%2C%22%20Bogaerts%20told%20reporters%20Tuesday
Boston Red Sox shortstop Xander Bogaerts expressed skepticism about the direction of the franchise following the team's decision to trade catcher Christian Vazquez to the Houston Astros on Monday.

"I wouldn’t say we got better because we lost [Vazquez]," Bogaerts told reporters Tuesday.
 
Last edited:

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
4,662
What they did alientated Xander....he was so pissed he didn't play for 2 days.
What? Xander had a scheduled off day on Aug. 2, which was determined before the Vazquez trade happened. He was back in the lineup the next day.

In doing so they essentially stood pat though. If they concluded that McGuire was the catcher of the future (as they clearly have), so be it. But they otherwise stood still. They didn't get below the luxury tax and they didn't push for a playoff spot. How can that be perceived as anything other than a failure? It's not like they were 50 mil above the cap, this was mismanagement and a failure.
That kind of standing pat was exactly the way to go. Bloom was three games out and didn't quit on the team, which is the right move.

He made a bet that J.D. Martinez would rebound and he was right. JDM had a 147 wRC+ in September. It just didn’t matter standings-wise, so everyone focused on the thing they could get mad about, which was that Bloom didn’t trade him.

Bloom also turned Jake friggin’ Diekman into the team’s next starting catcher. Doing that trade alone shed Diekman’s $4M in 2023 salary and locked in a league average MLB backstop who is excellent at controlling the running game for $1.25M in 2023, and extremely cheap for two years beyond if he sticks. That meant it wasn’t an imperative that we sign a Sanchez (?), Narvaez ($7.5M AAV) or Zunino ($6M) to pair with Wong. There are a few what ifs there, but the money difference is roughly the equivalent of what we ended up allocating to Martin, Duvall or Kluber, plus we got Valdez and Abreu.

Is it that difficult to give him credit for this stuff? I don’t see how it’s “mismanagement” if a couple coin flips don’t go our way. The Diekman–McGuire trade was a thing of beauty. Vázquez can’t control the running game anymore. The Sox gave up the third-most stolen bases in baseball last year, and the game is about to make it harder to throw runners out.
 
Last edited:

GB5

New Member
Aug 26, 2013
675
When it comes to Henry and public speaking appearances on behalf of his Red Sox he should managed similar to the way the Sox handled Barnes after his long layoff last year:

low leverage appearances only (start with a rotary club), and

on a pitch count( he should be giving a prepared statement only), and

Relieved at the first sign of wildness or trouble, herein known as live questions when he has to think off the cuff.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,493
Scituate, MA
They also upgraded 2 positions that had been pretty big negatives all year without giving up anything
Hosmer and Pham? Is that a joke?

This was directionless decision making at it's finest. They traded for a 4th outfielder and a First Baseman that they were unwilling to pay league minimum to. The 2022 trade deadline was a failure.

Also they got rid of their 2023 commitment to Diekman, addition by subtraction.
Absolutely a positive.

Look, it's not that any of the trade deadline trades were bad. It's that there was no objective to them. It wasn't to win and it wasn't to get under the cap. It was directionless.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,493
Scituate, MA
What? Xander had a scheduled off day on Aug. 2, which was determined before the Vazquez trade happened. He was back in the lineup the next day.



That kind of standing pat was exactly the way to go. Bloom was three games out and didn't quit on the team, which is the right move.

He made a bet that J.D. Martinez would rebound and he was right. JDM had a 147 wRC+ in September. It just didn’t matter standings-wise, so everyone focused on the thing they could get mad about, which was that Bloom didn’t trade him.

Bloom also turned Jake friggin’ Diekman into the team’s next starting catcher. Doing that trade alone shed Diekman’s $4M in 2023 salary and locked in a league average MLB backstop who is excellent at controlling the running game for $1.25M in 2023, and extremely cheap for two years beyond if he sticks. That meant it wasn’t an imperative that we sign a Sanchez (?), Narvaez ($7.5M AAV) or Zunino ($6M) to pair with Wong. There are a few what ifs there, but the money difference is roughly the equivalent of what we ended up allocating to Martin, Duvall or Kluber, plus we got Valdez and Abreu.

Is it that difficult to give him credit for this stuff? I don’t see how it’s “mismanagement” if a couple coin flips don’t go our way. The Diekman–McGuire trade was a thing of beauty. Vázquez can’t control the running game anymore. The Sox gave up the third-most stolen bases in baseball last year, and the game is about to make it harder to throw runners out.
Bloom has made several transactions that are good transactions, but he has never come close to completing the plan. That's been my consistent argument all along. Honestly, I'm dumbfounded by the defense of Bloom on here.

I'll take a step back and say that they're a middle infielder away from having an interesting team in what should be a transition year. If they're able to acquire someone like Kim or Adames without giving up the farm than it will show me direction for the first time in Bloom's run with Boston.

I'm not kissing Bloom's ring. At this point, he hasn't shown me anything that indicates he's anything more than an average GM/President of Baseball Operations.
 

BornToRun

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 4, 2011
17,340
That wasn't the point...it was pretty well documented that Xanders wasn't happy about how things went. Really doesn't matter now
Then he had to be a professional and get over it. Xander had been around long enough to know how this works. I love him to death and I’m sad that he left but if he was that upset about trading Vaz then he needed to suck it up.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,308
Hosmer and Pham? Is that a joke?

This was directionless decision making at it's finest. They traded for a 4th outfielder and a First Baseman that they were unwilling to pay league minimum to. The 2022 trade deadline was a failure.
Look at what they were getting from RF and 1B, no it's not a joke, those were pretty huge upgrades at the time that cost them nothing. And pretty sure they were willing to pay him the league minimum, but once Casas showed he was ready Hosmer no longer had a role on the team.

And getting Mcguire while shedding Diekman alone makes the 2022 deadline not a failure. The objective was to add both current and future talent without giving up any future talent, and they did that. The current talent upgrade didn't matter, it's to be determined how much the future talent will, but it looks like they got at worst an average starting catcher for nothing of value.
 

jteders1

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 5, 2022
117
I think we need to cool our jets on McGuire. He had a hot 6 weeks, with a lot of seeing eye singles. Is he now a catcher who can hit .280, with A defense...maybe, but his major league profiles says that's unlikely. More likely we get a pretty mediocre hitter who's a plus defender. I'm fine with that btw, and the trade was worth it to get Diekman off the books, but let's calm down. We don't even know if he'll hit enough to be an everyday catcher, or if he's Sandy Leon.

Regarding the Xander being upset stuff, to me this reflects that there was an issue in communication between the front office and the locker room. Both the Vazquez trade and Pawlecki release are fine and more than reasonable in a vacuum. It was very strange that the team reacted the way they did to both. I'm wondering if Bloom wasn't clear with Cora that these moves were possibilities. It's pretty clear both took the team by surprise.

Finally, I'm surprised by all the posts about entitlement by the fans. I mean this is Boston after all, owners and front office folks are going to get boo'd. If you think this is bad, I would have hated to see your reaction to the shit that rained down on the Jacobs ownership of the Bruins in the 90's, or the Pitino days with the C's. Hell Bellicheck has started to hear some rumbling from fans and he had a hell of a lot longer leash than Chaim Bloom. Yes, it seems unfair sometimes, but I can also tell you that teams like the Twins and Pirates don't get the support that the Red Sox do. This type of passion brings some strong criticisms, but also some incredible support. I'm fairly confident Bloom knew the deal when he took over the keys. Asking if Red Sox fans are entitled seems silly.
 

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
The fact is they didn’t get worse at catcher.
Vazquez is an example of Bloom & the FO assessing the actual talent of the player within their current career trajectory and making a move irrespective of name recognition. McGuire is 4 years younger than Vazquez and under control through 2025. This at least gives them a placeholder at C for a few years instead of having to bid for Vazquez's decline. Within the trade deadline narrative, this is only an issue because Vaz was popular with his teammates.

I suspect that this was thinking about behind Xander as well. There were at least a few of us who had trepidations about his declining power numbers and defensive deficiencies, and I don't think Bloom/ Ownership wanted to pay for his decline even before the FA market blew up. X didn't really fit a roster with Devers and Story, but the public statements didn't help.

If this is ultimately about PR, does anyone really want the team following what the average fan thinks they should do? That seems like a recipe for a much longer disaster.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,175
FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly that the idea of booing Henry/FSG is not at all a good look for Red Sox fans by and large. FSG has achieved so much more than even the most optimistic posters on the board could have hoped for over the past 20 or so years that it's really difficult to boo them with any credibility - at least in my opinion. Even this year, it's not like FSG has closed the wallets, they're spending differently, but still going up to the tax threshold EVEN on a team that would need about 150 things to go right to contend for even a "top" wild card spot.

Bloom is somewhat of a different story. His big win is a single game against the Yankees (at least I think that was more impressive than beating the Rays). Which was fun, and awesome, but it's not like he has 4 World Series rings to point to the way Henry and FSG does. Or put another way Yankee fans booing Jeter (or Red Sox fans booing Ortiz) is a world of different from either entity booing Gleyber Torres or Garrett Whitlock.

I really do believe in a lot of ways that FSG / the FO do themselves no favors in terms of messaging, the way others have alluded to. The media is negative - and it's not just Boston - negativity is what generates clicks. Think of any "news" network around election times and how they paint "the other side"; it's pandering to a base and stoking fear. The negativity is always going to come, so trying to "hedge" that never works. Epstein was ridiculed for his "bridge" comments, but I think a large contingent of fans looked at what he said and understood that it made a lot of sense.

Bloom, Kennedy, etc, would do better outlining their plan (while not going into specifics, obviously) rather than doing things like calling Bogaerts their priority and talking about deep playoff runs THIS October when that is fairly unlikely to happen. Are they "obligated" to tell fans their plan, of course not. Though if they talk about priorities and moves to make a deep playoff run and end up making more short term moves where everything "could" go right, but is a very small needle to thread, I can see why fans would feel they been sold on false advertising at worst or simply think "this guy has no idea what he's doing" at best. Always better to under promise and over deliver than the other way around.
 

EyeBob

New Member
Dec 22, 2022
137
Look at what they were getting from RF and 1B, no it's not a joke, those were pretty huge upgrades at the time that cost them nothing. And pretty sure they were willing to pay him the league minimum, but once Casas showed he was ready Hosmer no longer had a role on the team.

And getting Mcguire while shedding Diekman alone makes the 2022 deadline not a failure. The objective was to add both current and future talent without giving up any future talent, and they did that. The current talent upgrade didn't matter, it's to be determined how much the future talent will, but it looks like they got at worst an average starting catcher for nothing of value.
This is true, but, to be fair, if Bloom had kept Renfroe, RF would not have been as much of a disaster. But your point is still valid.
 

brandonchristensen

Loves Aaron Judge
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2012
38,187
Booing for existing is lame. I don’t know what fans go to something like that - but on announcement booing is lame.

Now, booing a bad response like it’s expensive to field a high payroll - that is completely tone deaf and deserved loud ridicule.

End of the day - they boo because they want to cheer is the truth. It’s a passionate fan base that feels like the team has no direction or identity. I have definitely reached a new level of apathy towards them.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,386
I will give you that Mayer fell into his lap, but he made what appeared to be the "right" pick at the time, and he is progressing well through the minors.
I'm just going to add that it's still to his credit (I think) that they drafted Mayer. It's VERY easy to screw up the MLB draft. Teams get first round - even upper first round - picks wrong ALL THE TIME. If Mayer turns out to be the player he looks like he can be, then yes, of course it's to Bloom's credit that he actually drafted him when he had the chance. He had nothing whatsoever to do with Mayer being available when the Sox picked, but once there, yes, good job Chaim.